Surviving the first jungle clear as Evelynn is easy

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Very informative, thanks for the video.

For those continuing to play Evelynn in the jungle, I'd like to hear what specifically you guys feel she is struggling with (ex: survivability vs. damage, early game vs. late game). Thanks!

Hi, thanks for checking out my video. The problem for my point of view is that when you put a lot of effort in your clear like perfect positioning, microing and timing your skills, your clear is still really slow. Just the nature of her early fighting/sustaining capabilities make her slowly fall behind the enemy most of the time.

I think for the most part her early game struggle is caused by very low damage her level 1 Q. Even on my video when I was taking red, I overestimated the damage of my Q and it didn't finish off the little monster who had very few hp left. I think just a little more damage on her Q would help her a lot, or at least bonus minion/monster damage (helps lane Evelynn as well).

I actually like her late game, but she's still lacking in the mid game, where her ultimate doesn't let her shine and it still has a ridiculous cooldown for a spell of questionable strength in 1v1s or 2v2s.

Actually looking at the video: Clear speed and surviveability.

Most common junglers do an additional camp in the same (or less) time. Not to mention that he kited perfectly in the video, which sure is an admireable thing to do but doesn't always work (especially when you're getting invaded).

The fact that she must not attack but run away and soft reset several times and still come sout relatively low should be prof enough that something is off.

EDIT: Considering his AP he also uses an extremely earlygame orientated rune build which will definitely come at high cost once the midgame starts...

Personally, I feel she is suffering from an identity crisis. Is she supposed to be a succubus? A predator? A vampire? Her lore, her in-game diolog, and her abilities have virtually nothing in common. Nothing with her really "flows".

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Very informative, thanks for the video.

For those continuing to play Evelynn in the jungle, I'd like to hear what specifically you guys feel she is struggling with (ex: survivability vs. damage, early game vs. late game). Thanks!

Dear Statikk.

1st at all thematic staff : she supposed to be Assasin . Now she is I don't even know what she is

2nd : DFG removed from game + Lich Bane is changed . Maby it's time to rever E spell to Magic DMG instead of Physical

3rd : Revert Ulti change . make it EXECUTE ?

now her HP sux . bc there is no spiritstone. What you think about that changes ?

Although I liked the change to alter her E to physical damage, I still feel that her ultimate is an itemization dead end now that hybrid resists have become relatively easy to achieve after her rework, and it's impossible to take Hybrid Penetration runes into the S5 jungle. Taking away her capability to use MS Quintessences was another unfortunate kick to her critical map presence. I've always been a proponent of the "classic" post-rework Eve: mid-level AD item (Sheen/Cutlass) into a defense component (typically Shroud) and then building straight damage (LW/Maw/BT) until you need CDR (FH/Ionian/Visage), and I suppose you'd throw the Warrior enchant in there somewhere.

I don't particularly want to bring "full bruiser base damage" Eve back into play, but perhaps giving her some base ability damage or raw AD at early ranks/levels would ease the early game pain, and doing something with her ultimate would address the late game itemization issues. I've always personally found it weird that her %HP tank/bruiser fighting ability has magic damage on it when it's extremely easy for them to get enough MR to block a significant chunk of the damage. Perhaps giving it an AD ratio or even converting it to physical damage would let her put a dent in the people she really wants to sink her ultimate into (in addition to carries which manage to pick up a pesky GA).

Given that she doesn't get the mechanical advantages other assassins get to pick from (ranged poke, disengage, instagib power), I've always felt that she should at least be allowed to have the one benefit of the light fighter dynamic from her S2 pre-AP playstyle had (hyperscaling) and be allowed to eviscerate people late game if she gets scary (see: Riven). I just wish that DFG, her S2 AP burst getting out of hand, and then people discovering how to play her Dominion bruiser style hadn't poisoned the well for giving Eve nice things.

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Very informative, thanks for the video.

For those continuing to play Evelynn in the jungle, I'd like to hear what specifically you guys feel she is struggling with (ex: survivability vs. damage, early game vs. late game). Thanks!

In the first clear she struggles with Gromp. It is not worthwhile considering how much more damage it does than other camps since it cannot be kited nor are there small monsters to kill quickly to reduce DPS.

Outside of issues related to clear times / health, her early game ganking potential is fine considering how good her passive is for getting into position for them. Her late game is also fine if you build items that are useful for the role you play in your team composition.

Her mid game is extremely lack luster. In most cases you are too prone to being instantly killed if you build damage, and her damage is fairly low unless you itemize damage and she does not have utility in her kit to make up for not doing damage. The exception are games where the teams never group up for more than 1v2 or maybe 2v3 skirmishes and games where you have a minimum of 15 kills ten minutes in while no one on the other team is snowballing nearly as hard.

This is because her ability to scale with gold is gated by level / ranks in her abilities, and being under leveled means you also lack a buffer from base stats. And you will be, as only hard farming with the champions with the best clear times is enough to not be under leveled.

My thoughts on how I would like her kit to be changed short of a major rework.

I used to main Eve in seasons 1-3, and parts of 4, but I don't play her any more. I wrote up a post back in season 4 explaining why, and most of it still applies, with season 5's new jungle difficulty adding yet another reason not to play her today.

Rather than type up the points again, I'll quote that post, where I think I was more eloquent than I feel today:

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=NiAR4xXU,discussion-id=RFtkW6HY,comment-id=,timestamp=2014-05-08T00:12:36.756+0000)

I used to main Evelynn, since she was "trash tier" before her rework, and through season 3 when she went through being unplayed, then considered OP, and then nerfed back into line so she needed skill both to play and to play against (she was considered balanced or slightly weak at the end of S3).

Then came season 4 with its vision changes. Suddenly, she gained a huge amount of annoying power because you couldn't use pink wards against her any more. It was fun to play her like that, but no longer fun to play against her because she had very little counterplay - either be strong enough to blow her up if she attacks you, or hide under your tower.

Instead of dealing with the bigger and harder-to-solve problem - that her stealth had become unfun again because of the new vision system - she was "fixed" by giving her nerfs and changes to shift her more towards a sustained autoattacker role, and to try to make her "bad enough" as an assassin to compensate for the broken stealth.

I loved playing Eve because she was a squishy, stealthy assassin, who had to carefully stalk her prey and pick them off at an opportune time, could only kill people alone if she got the drop on them or was really fed, and could be blown up instantly if she made a wrong move. A true AP assassin.

Now, I don't really want to play her at all any more. You can still build her as an assassin, but it's just so suboptimal compared to her tank build. Forget about strong or weak, the very fantasy of the champion is ruined with that build. You have to build her like a tank instead of an assassin. That's just not fun for me any more. That's not what Evelynn is supposed to be.

I think the only way that Evelvnn can be fixed is to completely change her interaction with wards. Make it so that normal wards can see her, but only if they are inside her stealth range, so they see her at slightly reduced range. She would also still be invisible to minions and to champions outside of her stealth radius. (I'd also consider making her invisible to towers outside of her stealth radius, since they can currently see her much farther away.)

Her damage would need to be buffed to compensate, as this would take away her biggest strength, but it would fix her frustrating invisibility while still allowing her to use her stealth to outsmart enemies. Her skills could be given power again, allowing her to actually be the AP assassin that she once was.

As an Evelynn main, I'm happy to leave here some ideas I had to help her :) In fact, I don't think she needs that much help for clearing because it's not what she is supposed to be good at and I'd rather like buffs for her fight potential (which would probably help her clear at the same time).

So, here are some of my ideas :

• Change E bonus AS to a 20% damage amp against the target I like Evelynn not as a total assassin (100-0 peole) but as a mix assassin-bruiser (I think she has a gameplay kinda similar to old Kha Zix when evolved R was OP, wait for opportunities to engage, go out and in kiting with Q and W, bait with R that I really enjoy and could be pushed further) and I think an AS / on-hit eve is pointless. Pro : More single target damages Con : Maybe worse clear / sustain damage (not sure though, depends on the value of the amp) Con : Less pushing potential (not really in her identity but nevertheless not negligible, allowing her to e towers would allow this again)

• Shift ult from current hp to max hp or even raw damages for more effectiveness against squishies

• Reverting earlier** nerfs** on** Q damages**

• More base resistances, didn't do much comparison but I think they are pretty low, especially HP

And ideas I had but didn't seem well, still leaving it here :

• I also thought about adding sustain in passive (but I guess adding her infinite sustain is a really bad idea) or in Q (against monsters only ?), make Q damages ramp up (but don't think it would be really satisfying / serving good purposes to what is supposed to do).

If she has to give up something to have significant buffs, increasing time before going back to invisibility from 6 to 8 seconds would force her either to take more risks being seen by wards or force her to wait more before going into river, making her loose some precious time.

I would also like to point out that she imo suffers from early itemisation, especially because old AD jungler item had so much sinergy with her :

• Warrior give armor pen which is not very gold efficient

• Magus provides good stats but you don't really want to go AP because of lack of good items (AP bruiser like to get magic pen : Haunted Guise / Sorcerer Shoes which is not good on Evelynn either, Lichbane sucks without a lot of AP, mana regen is pointless...)

• She is so squishy (without ult) that if you don't rush any hexdrinker / giant's belt, you're going to die really fast, so you're forced in either dying fast either giving up early pressure unless you purchase hexdrinker which is very good early but don't scale that well into lategame imo

I also think that you should start thinking about the theme she's going to have when updated (even if I know it's not in the pipeline yet T_T) to enforce either sustain (vampire), single-target focus (hired killer), whatever (Succubus / Darkin ?).

Also, I would like to know aboutf the state of Evelynn in concerns of mana : super high cost due to Q spamming and high regen while invisible. Do you think it serve good purposes ? Should it be changed ? Do you have any plans regarding this ?

That's all, hope I could help at least a little.

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Very informative, thanks for the video.

For those continuing to play Evelynn in the jungle, I'd like to hear what specifically you guys feel she is struggling with (ex: survivability vs. damage, early game vs. late game). Thanks!

There are other champions that do eve's job better, want a tank? pick lee, naut, want a bursty assassin? pick pantheon, yi, or rengar, want a bruiser duelist? jarvan, vi, sejuani.

The point being eve excels at nothing, her early game ganking potential was removed by how hard the jungle hits and she cannot defend her self against any jungle invaders due to her base stats, additionally your also adding a new ward specifically to counter eve so that hurts too.

Speaking of stats when dfg was removed i was expecting some eve changes seeing as the entire reason she had several parts of her kit nuked was due to that item, give her back the ability to execute with her ult, its silly that she can't especially with DFG gone.

I wouldn't have problems with her low survivability if she wouldn't transfer into a tank ult bot late game, that's not what she is.... if you want her to be strong early game but weaker late game that's fine, considering she's building more damage than defense, but at her current state it doesn't feel she got any powerspikes during the game, you either getting very fed early based on the consequences or she's completely useless. she can be powerful but it takes much less effort to get to this power point as any other jungler.

To fix eve I think you need to start from her ult and make it an actual tool to kill people instead of initiating fights since everything about her SCREAMS assasin, from her appearance to her lore to her gameplay. She got permanent invisibility but need to reveal herself and on top of it initiate the fight? It's kinda flawed design imo. I would sacrifice her teamfighting potential and make her this 1v1 deadly assasin again.

First off, props to OP for the video. I'm a S4 Eve main. I still play her in S5 even after the nerfs.

Her problem as I see it is a lack of a definitive power spike. Her early clears require you to use mechanics that you would otherwise almost never use while playing other Junglers. You would assume that this should give you an advantage over other Junglers but it's instead used to just keep up with them. If i recall correctly, the nerf to the base damage of her Q was because she had too much early game damage against champions. The changes to the ratios for Q and E were to entice players to build items that provide high flat damage. Now with E applying On-Hit effects, you're suppose to build Sheen/Botrk on her (both do not provide high flat damage for her ratios). It would also be great if her ultimate was changed so that it had a base damage along with the current health damage (similar to Xin Zhao's ult).

I still have a few questions though. Is she now suppose to be this midgame/lategame monster with all these abilities that have ap/ad ratios that increase per ability level? Or is she still this early game champion that thrives during the laning phase but turns into a flanking champ afterwards?

Thank you Statikk for replying to the post. I may not have started it but as an Eve main, it is quite relieving to see that Riot still take time to listen to the community's opinions.

Not an Evelynn player, but even when she was considered OP, I've always thought she really struggled as a actual assassin post-early-game (rather than being a tanky initiator). In my opinion, this never fit the character at all and just feels wierd.

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Very informative, thanks for the video.

For those continuing to play Evelynn in the jungle, I'd like to hear what specifically you guys feel she is struggling with (ex: survivability vs. damage, early game vs. late game). Thanks!

Hi there, Plat Eve player with almost 170 games with her this season alone. I'd say her biggest downfall right now is poor itemization when it comes to penetration. No matter how well Evelynn does her mixed damage will always inevitably hold her back as a champion in many regards.

But to answer your question in full these are things that I think would make Eve a better champion right now, while also being fun:

1. Changing E to magic damage, allowing Eve to itemize penetration properly

2. Allowing E to do both spell effects AND on hit effects

3. Lowering the ultimate CD

4. Giving her ultimate some sort of base damage outside of the percentage damage, make it so she doesn't always have to initiate with it.

5. Get rid of the scaling per rank ratio on her Q, let her be able to max E first too.

Now not all of these need to be done obviously, but these are some ideas I had.

Thanks for hearing our concerns about our favorite champion!

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Very informative, thanks for the video.

For those continuing to play Evelynn in the jungle, I'd like to hear what specifically you guys feel she is struggling with (ex: survivability vs. damage, early game vs. late game). Thanks!

You can see at least one of Eve's problems in the video. Her first clear is painfully bad. While doing her little juggling/kiting trick, Eve still had to recall before clearing Wolves Raptors or Gromp. Then she recalled, bought, and was out of sustain after clearing wolves and Raptors. That Eve has to be kiting camps around to copmlete a sub-par clear is a telling sign.

On top of that, Eve's ganks are not exactly devestating anymore. Sure she has invisibility, but you konw what, Eve still gives as much warning as a Thresh lantern-gank, or a J4/Vi/Lee lane gank. Pre-6, she has no built-in CC, and post 6 her CC is limited to a 2s 30% slow on a 2.5 minute CD. Compare that to J4's ult on a 2 min CD, or Lee Sin's on a 1.5 minute CD. Hell, Amumu, the guy known for having a really powerful ult on a long CD is only equal to Eve's at 2.5 minutes. And frankly, with the increase in the number of dashes/blinks in the game, a 30% slow is oftentimes almost useless.

Eve suffers from Irelia syndrom. That being: her skills are so all over the place that itemizing is a nightmare. Is Eve supposed to be AP?AD?On-Hit?Tanky Bruiser?Assassin? Initiator? Clean-up? Having versatility is nice, but being in a weird limbo where you want "a bit of everything" makes itemizing properly a nightmare. (Especially when the obvious "get Trinity then whatever" answer is not really viable from the jungle.)

Related to above: because you need everything, you usually arrive at lategame lacking in at least one area. Either you don't have enough HP/Armor/MR or you don't have enough damage, or you don't have enough Pen.

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Very informative, thanks for the video.

For those continuing to play Evelynn in the jungle, I'd like to hear what specifically you guys feel she is struggling with (ex: survivability vs. damage, early game vs. late game). Thanks!

Tbh I have very little issues with her clearing and I feel like if those pbe changes go live she will be fine. The issue I have with Eve I have is that I feel I'm not getting damage for building damage if you get what I mean. If I build a Warrior on most ad junglers I feel powerful the moment I get it. If I get the ap version on Fid I feel powerful the moment I get it.

But with Eve I never get that feeling with any items on Evelynn. I feel like I'm just annoyance to the enemy team and if ignored I might kill a player or two but only if they are low. I feel like I'm just soaking damage but that doesn't feel right on Evelynn. Towards mid game if I snowball I have a little power but once late game hits I feel useless outside of ult team, soak damage, and run away.

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=pALKRsLa,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-04T06:05:49.612+0000)

Your name has now been earned. Thank you for showing us how to play this champion again!

Thanks man. Glad to be of some help. Funny story, I actually earned my name way back! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8924PLrAZHk

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This is some S1 level skills on display here. Thanks for showing everyone how it's done!

I hope you meant S1 as in something other than Silver 1 >_>

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I'm going to get pretty technical here.

Technically speaking, you never really did a full clear outright -not that you have to, backing and getting the upgraded jungle item provide bonus gold generation so it's not really a loss from a money standpoint.. Just an xp one. There are a handful of junglers that can do a full clear and remain relatively healthy. I'm not convinced Eve can even survive a true full clear -not your point but it is one to consider.

In your clear you dropped very low a number of times, basically anyone could have walked into your jungle and either killed you and destroyed your clear time/set you back several minutes by forcing you to back. Against a team that is aware of such counter-jungle/invade susceptibility, you would have been a very high risk with your Eve pick early on.

Also, the actual clear speed was very mid-low range. Pretty close to, or even behind Nautilus' clear speed.

No one said Eve can't jungle, because she can -which is essentially what you showed us.

You also showed us exactly what everyone else has been talking about:

-Unhealthy clear (health drops too low)

and

-Clear speed somewhat lacking

I agree for the most part (you can read my post to Statikk above), except for the part of being low and this being an exclusive 'Eve problem'. That's more of a general problem for a lot of champions who used to be good (not great, looking at you, Lee) in jungle.

This vid is more of a tutorial for people who want to play Eve but are afraid to die to the jungle camps. Lots of people actually felt that way so I decided to help them.

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I'm going to get pretty technical here.

Technically speaking, you never really did a full clear outright -not that you have to, backing and getting the upgraded jungle item provide bonus gold generation so it's not really a loss from a money standpoint.. Just an xp one. There are a handful of junglers that can do a full clear and remain relatively healthy. I'm not convinced Eve can even survive a true full clear -not that that was your point but it *is *one to consider.

In your clear you dropped very low a number of times, basically anyone could have walked into your jungle and either killed you and destroyed your clear time or set you back several minutes by forcing you to back. Against a team that is aware of such counter-jungle/invade susceptibility, you would have been a very high risk with your Eve pick early on.

Also, the actual clear speed was very mid-low range. Pretty close to, or even behind Nautilus' clear speed.

No one said Eve can't jungle, because she can -which is essentially what you showed us.

You also showed us exactly what everyone else has been talking about:

-Unhealthy clear (health drops too low)

and

-Clear speed somewhat lacking

Full clear in the part with the Krugs start.

I am not as good at kiting as mirAcIe, and I actually did it better in the trial run before recording.

Clear speed is better if you do not kite the camps, but then you take more damage.

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Wow, duh, facepalm.

I should have thought of the fact that E applies on-hits, and Krug buff is an on-hit.

Actually you could do this route even before the changes to E. But I preferred the Gromp path until they increased the cost of jungle items by 100g.

The main trick about kiting is that new jungle items apply a DoT that keeps dealing damage even when you take short pauses between autos (when you kite).

[{quoted}](name=Postal Badger,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=pALKRsLa,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-03-04T21:29:21.570+0000)

What runes/masteries are you running, mate?

http://i.imgur.com/toOJn8Z.jpg

There is a link below the vid where I explain what exactly is being done here (skill order, positioning etc). It has runes and masteries as well.

[{quoted}](name=AYY LMA0,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=pALKRsLa,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-03-05T00:26:57.258+0000)

Ew. Ap Evelynn... I prefer bruiser or at least AD.

This is a starting setup for both bruiser/AD and AP Evelynn. She just gets much more out of AP Quints rather than AD Quints and it's very helpful in the first clear.

Though if he did that, he wouldnt have to recall because when he tries to gank he would die. Also, Eve didn't have to recall.

[{quoted}](name=Pixel Molotov,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=pALKRsLa,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2015-03-05T13:25:26.809+0000)

Does this guy know what mana is? How did he not run out.

Her passive. She regents a lot of mana whilst invisible.