Looking for Advice on Carrying a Bad Team

DeloricVI·Oct 14, 2015·2 votes·942 views

About half way through season 5, I picked up Veigar, before he became "OP" Just because he did good in the LCS. I'm pretty good with Veigar, but I need to ask anyone with experience how to carry a bad team with him!?

What do I mean by this? I mean, people feeding so hard during the laning phase that top has time to push the wave, tower dive me, and make it back before the wave makes it back to the middle of top lane. And then, just for laughs, he kills my top laner, AGAIN. I've had several games lately where this happens in the FIRST SEVEN MINUTES. How do I work with teams like this, when they feed so hard so early? Is there anything I can do?for a team like this?

It's pretty much the worst thing that can happen to a Veigar, and that's having his team (and by effect, him) shut down early on in the game. IF he can't get his stacks, he has little to no presence in team fights, in lane, really, anywhere. I know my champion pretty well, and when my team is actually competent, we win every time, with me usually going positive with at least 6 kills, and usually 3 or less deaths. I just need help for when my team is crap. What I've been doing is playing defensively, but it gets to a point where a) by the time I'd be able to help at all with Veigar (my main) their enemy laner is way too fed for me to deal with, or b) I never become relevant because everyone else gets so fed so quickly, they shut me down before I can get to a point where I can do something. I put up wards, but they don't help because being under tower isn't even safe, most of the time that I have problems. And you might say to just back off when they come to lane and ping for help, but they're usually so op that they can 3v1, take a tower, and have the time to spam ctrl+4 a couple times before they go back and buy their ravenous/titanic hydra or whatever is applicable.

I have been stuck in bronze 5 for a long time now. When the planets finally align, and I get my role, I get destroyed because I do ok in lane until someone who's godlike at 10 minutes decides to drop by and end any momentum I had going. It's really frustrating to get knocked down from bronze 4 every other week... and I want to get better. I want to learn how to deal with this... I hate feeling cheated because other people on the team can't play... Everyone says that you just need to win a little more than 50% of your games, and some combinations of players can make winning so improbable for you that you probably should surrender so you can get a different team... but I know some of these matches have got to be winable, somehow.

Any tips? I'm open for people to ask me questions about how I play, how/when I ward, anything you want to know. I just don't have replays to show, which is unfortunate.

edit: Also, does anyone have any tips for going up against Fizz? I know I shouldn't pick Veigar INTO Fizz, because his mobility and damage makes him a bad matchup for me, but being a Veigar main, there will be times where I will be counter-picked with Fizz... I can handle most of the AD mids pretty well... my stacks usually give me enough damage on my ult either get some kills or deal with them. Fizz just does too much damage to me for some reason. I know his moves, I know he does a lot of damage and usually builds hybrid, but I just don't know how to deal with him... Any suggestions would be good.

8 Comments

LightningfstOct 15, 20151 votes

First, to deal with Fizz use someone with good CC (Annie is perfect - if he tricksters your ability you get your stun charge back). Ahri, Lux, etc.

Playing defensively mid-lane at that elo won't get you to carry. You need to be able to beat your opponent and then roam to other lanes and get them back into the game. What you described with the enemy top laner is what you should be doing constantly as a mid-laner who can pressure both bot and top lanes.

Veigar doesn't need a bazillion stacks to get ahead. His kit is pretty good inherent damage and his zone control with stun makes him difficult to deal with in team fights. Your ult should be able to massacre the enemy mid laner (assuming they are AP) and if you get deathcap + one other item, you should be able to chunk out the enemy team pretty hard with W.

Being mid laner also means that you have the most opportunity to be pressured from all other lanes. Buy and use wards frequently in the river bushes near mid lane, then play defensively when you have a gank incoming to waste their time. If they dive you at your turret, set a stun off and make sure you at least take them with you if not kill them outright.

GL.

DeloricVIOct 15, 20151 votes

@The advice for Fizz: I know, I usually counter-pick fizz with someone that's got reliable CC, usually Annie. I meant what should I do if I pick Veigar, and THEN Fizz is picked to counter me.

In the defense of playing defensively, there are some matches that I know I don't do well with, champions that have high mobility (e.g. Ahri, Ezreal) usually get shut down eventually because, while playing defensively, I get stronger passively, enough to overwhelm them. I also buy resistance items (like Abyssal Scepter) when I know the enemy team has a lot of ap, or my opponent counters me in some way with lots of AP, and it works pretty well. Veigar is not a champion that is meant to survive lots of punishment, but this works very well against point-and-click champions as well. Veigar also has some early-game mana problems, and mostly gets damage from stacks, so the early laning phase is no time to go HAM.

I also almost never rush rabadons... is that bad? Most of the time, I usually wait until after I've bought at least my zhonia's first, sometimes archangel's staff as well... it's usually my second or third item because, while the ability power boost is good, the percentage boost doesn't do much unless you have some ap going already... usually more than my q can generate. Not to mention people on other champions usually buy luden's echo first, for that exact reason.

As for warding, I usually have the bush just out of the lane warded with a pink ward (on blue team, it's the one on the way to top lane, on red team, it's the one on the way to bot lane), and the bush right next to the lane is frequently warded with my trinket. Vision is not usually a problem, the problem is when the vision doesn't make a difference, or just signals that I need to retreat and the some uber fed Jungler or top laner take my tower for free just so that I don't die.

LightningfstOct 15, 20151 votes

I think the important thing is knowing your lane matchup and how to trade effectively even when countered.

You know that Fizz has a dodge with trickster, so you have an engage window after he uses it. If he dashes to you make sure to hit him with your Q so he doesn't go unpunished. If he is using trickster offensively you can bait him when the jungler comes so that he has no escapes. If he dashes into you and then uses trickster to disengage, then you can lay down your stun around him and drop your W, Q so that your trades aren't lopsided. If you have the chance to hit Fizz and last hit a minion with Q, do it. That kind of harass should allow you to create some healthy distance. Don't feel that you can only use Q to farm minions - it is an ability and if it gives you lane dominance, use it.

Don't forget to use your health pots to keep your HP up.

As for warding, you can ward those side bushes but it doesn't cover as much vision area from jungle to mid-lane. I'd go for the "death brush" between jungle entrances in river if the enemy jungle doesn't have a dash ability to get themselves into side bush unseen (lee sin, J4, nidalee, etc). Also those death brush bushes can spot out your enemy mid laner if they roam top, and sometimes bot if they go down river and you can see the enemy jungler if he tries to enter your jungle or come through the side bushes to gank lane. Some junglers will go behind the river to gank lane, so that will be spotted as well. Get a pink for top side and then use trinket or 75g ward for bot side if your support doesn't ward it when they get sightstone.

As for itemization, I find that getting a utility AP item is fine (mana regen for instance) but you need the super damage buff item by the time you complete your 2nd big item. In this case, Deathcap stacks with your passive AP from Q farm so with Veigar I think it is a viable choice to go 1st or 2nd item. If you buy as your 2nd item you should be sitting around 500 AP. Waiting until the 3rd item is delaying your power spike too long IMO. You want the enemy team to FEEL those rank 1-2 W's.

DeloricVIOct 15, 20151 votes

When I buy, I usually get Tear of the Goddess, and try to have enough for a pink ward and a few pots. Then I usually go straight for zhonia's... is that bad? Should I be going Tear -> Deathcap under normal circumstances?

Also with ward placement I'll try to do something about my horrible explanations, because I feel like I didn't communicate well where I usually ward... Maybe I'll mark it on a map or something because I'm awful at explaining this kind of thing.

LightningfstOct 15, 20151 votes

I don't like tear on Veigar because it delays your AP power spike. If you need the mana and want to do a late game build, RoA is probably better as it gives you a nice HP boost. But going that route delays you from having any real impact until like 20 min, and in the situation you are describing you need to be able to make an impact before that.

Zhonya's is somewhat situational. It is good against AD midlaners like Zed or Yasuo, but if you don't absolutely need the hourglass active, then go for deathcap. I would suggest trying out different combinations of items to see what works best with your playstyle, just try to prioritize getting a big AP chunk as early as possible so that your burst counts.

Neeko B0tOct 15, 20151 votes

no mater what happens never give up, the monument you give in the game is over, think like this, they have a player on their team who is 20/2/14 and he can't be stopped. now in most cases that is true, but if you work together you can kill him and most likely win the game. (My team gives in when the score is 15 to 10 don't know why tho)

DeloricVIOct 15, 20151 votes

I know. I'm the one usually being positive and telling people to stop throwing up surrender votes. I fight until the end, unless literally everyone else on the team wants to give up. I never think that someone is unstoppable. I don't go in recklessly, but I do try to organize ganks, catch people out... it's just that when my team is bad, it's just a lot harder to work with them.

LightningfstOct 15, 20151 votes

This can happen at any elo, but the lower elo you are, the more chances they will make a mistake when ahead. Try to clear vision of areas and setup picks in a bush.