Can we just talk about how bad assassins are for the game right now?

DeloricVI··11 votes·2,115 views

I think it's pretty topical, especially considering they're getting a new item to make them even more powerful.

So, let's look at assassins that are just plain unfair in my opinion. Yes, I know I'm going to look whiny, but I don't care.

Talon

Why is this guy in the game in his current form? I mean, yeah they took the silence off his blink, but when he jumps on you under tower, he's always going to kill you on a full ability rotation, and 90% of the time he's going to get away with it because his ult is a huge cop-out. And don't tell me to buy zhonia's to counter him, because he barely needs any farm to get enough damage to wipe any mid off the map, before they can even afford more than a seeker's armguard.

Fizz

Should I say anything more? Fizz has his troll poll which is game changing, on a low cooldown, and is not his ultimate. No other non-ultimate move in a champions kit I can think of makes you immune to towers, let alone makes you invincible, other than vladimir, who I won't talk about in this thread because it's another rant for another day. His burst is way too strong and he can tower dive you for days. He has too much mobility, no collision with creeps, and can dash all around the map He can tower dive without consequence or that much risk; he is way too safe for an assassin.

Zed

Speaking of champions that are way too safe, Zed has a way out no matter what he does. He can drop a clone into the middle of the lane, ult you, tower dive you, blink back after taking pretty much no damage, and just kill you outright. His ult makes him totally untargetable and removes him from the game temporarily. WTF Riot? How is this high risk high reward? Don't say you can cc him under tower; there is almost no way to outplay Zed's ult. It's going to happen if he uses it, and you're probably going to die if you're a standard mid, and he is probably going to hammer his blink back to his shadow as soon as he launches his combo, which gives you pretty much no time to react past the warning on his ult, which is like a warning that you're going to die, so prepare to at least try to take zed with you, and that's about it.

Ekko

Now, I haven't seen an out-of-control Ekko in a game with me, but his kit is way too safe. It does take some skill, I will admit, but his ult restoring a percentage of damage taken in the last 3 seconds is just silly, as well as how much damage it does. I can deal with him, but even really bad ekkos can be successful in low elo, and when I see my mid feed a bad ekko, it feels like chewing on tin foil.

Katarina

There's a reason she's infamous for being a pub-stomp champion. As soon as she gets a large rod, it's over. even if you keep her in check, she's just going to roam and pick up a double kill bot, so it won't matter. Not to mention, a large rod at lv 6 is enough for her to burst you down under tower, with there being nothing you can do about it.

Yasuo

I'm actually fine with where Yasuo is, if not for his silly tacked-on crit. Otherwise, he seems alright to me. Annoying? Yes. too safe or too broken? Probably not. Unless he gets help from an outside source with a knock up, his is very manageable. His wind wall is pretty bs, especially because he has no mana, but he's meant to be a mid laner so it makes sense. His dash can be a little silly, but it does take some skill to be a good yasuo, especially because in low elo yasuo is one of those crap shoot champions that it's hard to say if they'll do well.

Rengar

This guy is just out of control. Too much burst, no mana, passive that gives him way too much mobility, ult that makes him invisible, where the warning does not give you enough time to respond... it's too much shit crammed into one kit that does too much damage. Not taking much time on this one because everyone already knows him and hates him.

MasterYi

Another one I'm actually fine with. Yi players have to be good, or they will die every time. His skills can sometimes be pretty bs; alpha strike taking him off the map is a bit too safe, but he's managable. Yi falls off in most of my games about as much if not more than he goes completely out of control.

Jax

Originally, I wasn't going to include Jax because he's been played in a number of ways, but now he's definitely being played as an assassin, and he just does way too much. He's too safe; he can avoid damage so easily and his jump strike is really strong, just as well having an AoE Stun like that is just too much. He also pushes towers way too easy; a jax can go 0-7 in lane and still be able to take towers one at a time via split pushing, and still win the game. I've seen it happen way too many times; it's why he's almost always banned in solo q right now.

Shaco

I'm conflicted about this one. As we saw with evelynn, stealth mechanics in league are busted as hell, hence eve has been nerfed into the ground because she's pretty much unable to be balanced. He has not had a point where she's been alright. She's either been useless because of the nerfs, or been way too powerful because of her mechanics. Now, after that digression, I feel like shaco could use some changes. Stealth is way too powerful to be combined with a blink, in my opinion, although his kit does require to you play mind games to be totally successful, which I will commend, and that is why I say shaco is pretty good where he's at; only a game breaker if you know what you're doing.

Ok, I think that about covers it, if I missed someone or grossly misrepresented a champion, please point it out; if I'm objectively wrong, I will change what is here.

However, the big question is, with the exception of Katarina and Ekko, do these assassins need a new item tailored for them? I'd say no, but I'll let you guys tell me what you think; I have a feeling that I don't need to encourage you, but I also feel its much more pleasant to directly show that I welcome discussion. In fact, if you can show me some kind of thing that makes a champion more balanced or easier for people like me to manage, I encourage you to share; if I'm missing something that could make me a better player, I would very much like to learn, but as it stands, this is my point of view.

Although, I will say right now, please do try to be respectful if you're going to refute my points, and do not use "cure-all" items to excuse a character from being "broken." This means, do not say "Zhonia's will keep you from getting tower dived" or "QSS will take care of jax's stun." On some champions, it makes no sense to build these items, and I find these to be cop-out arguments because the items just so powerful and way too specific of a counter that not everyone can use.

35 Comments

Verxint6 votes

This entire post is basically

"X champion does these things and this is why I don't like them"

You have a ton of words but you don't actually say much.

DeloricVI1 votes

OK, would you say it would be better if I used no reasoning at all and said that these champions are broken? Would you rather I don't confess that some assassins are ok?

Do reasons for disliking champions not matter?

Verxint5 votes

But you don't use any reasoning. You describe what the champions do and then arbitrarily say that it's too powerful with no actual reasoning or evidence besides "he can kill me". All your "reasoning" is anecdotal and based on your experiences.

I also perpetually despise any posts that starts with "can we". Such whiny language sets the entire precedent of your post.

I would prefer you present a post with an open mind instead of "I want to bitch about these champs but not appear like I'm QQing".

DeloricVI1 votes

Ok, so you want me to have a complete mathematical breakdown of 10 champion's entire kits before my point has any meaning at all? Totally reasonable. Yup, nothing wrong with that statement.

How exactly would you quantify Fizz's Playful/Trickster, you know, the part everyone hates? I do admit anecdotal evidence is not always substantial, but when you go into a game and observe yourself getting tower dived at full health and them getting away mostly unscathed? That's pretty fucked

Spicy Rice1 votes

Heres the question though, what are the factors surround the tower dive. Which champals, gold differences, what items built, level differences, summoners used.

DeloricVI1 votes

Oh, also at your last statement about not having an open mind, did you read the post? At the end, I actively encourage people to prove me wrong in a respectful way.

Dreadlocks2 votes

alls i see is this: item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 wah wah im bad at this game.

DeloricVI1 votes

I can tell you're clearly the apex of maturity, considering that your name is a pun on someone's inappropriate bits, and that you copy and pasted that same art enough times to be considered spam.

Care to prove how I'm a bad player? Because if not, you're worse than me. I actually point out reasons for why I link that way. Your reasoning makes you look like a petulant child. I at least point out that, "hey, it may not be healthy for the game to have a champion with a Zhonia's, flash, the active from randuin's omen all in one spell that isn't an ultimate and has a reasonably low cooldown."

Just because you've accepted that Riot won't change things doesn't mean everyone else has or even has to. Just because Riot won't do something about it doesn't mean that there aren't problems. Yeah, you might be gold, but guess what? Everyone will lump you in with the bad players still until you're in diamond, and being in a higher league than someone doesn't mean that you can just act like a child, not have to explain yourself, and get away with it because you're "better than them."

DeloricVI1 votes

Yes, and what does that have to do with how strong these champions are? There are things in my argument that no one can dispute; there are facts before that explain how champions are powerful. Just because I'm bronze, that means my opinion doesn't matter? This is ad hominem, the way you explain it.

Also, just because I'm bronze doesn't make you less of an immature asshole, and you being gold doesn't exempt you from being an immature asshole.

Besides, these numbers say nothing about how I play this game; as far as you know, I'm bronze because of constant bad matchups that won't necessarily show up in NUMBERS. I doubt you checked that before you responded as well. Going in blind, what about this thread tells you that I'm a bad player?

Dreadlocks1 votes

I'm simply stating that you are newb, and thus you have no idea what you are talking about and you are just crying about shit you cannot play vs. Mr. Sensitive should probably learn the game before making such judgments.

DeloricVI1 votes

I know the game. I know these champions. I know the items. These champions are fucked, and if you can't refute me with specifics, then you have no place in this conversation. I said I'm open to people criticizing me, but only if they have something useful to say, and don't act like an asshole. You meet none of those.

Also, you know why I'm bronze 5, and hover around bronze 5? It's because I went on tilt once while I was on my way to silver at least, who knows how much further. Then when I came back I was stuck at the bottom of the barrel, with truly awful players that put you in such a bad position so early, there is no coming back. And if you do, they're either in such an important role or just die so much you end up behind again or going without a key member of the team, and losing the game to either pure gold advantage from the enemy team, or their bad decision making. What's worse is when you get a team that would rather do Barren when both inhibs are down and the enemy team are still alive, 20 kills ahead.

My teams do demonstrably bad things that I tell them not to that make us lose the game. That or they provide feed for the enemy team faster than I can get advantage at the very beginning of the game. It's disgusting how bad people are in Bronze 5, and I refuse to believe I'm as bad as them. Looks can be deceiving, and when you're stuck this far down, teams are a crapshoot; you don't know if you're going to get someone functional in any way, or a team of people who play like they're not even level 30 yet. I'm not as terrible as op.gg will make you think.

But then again, no one would believe me because I dared complain about some mechanics that don't seem to be balanced to the same level as others. As soon as you complain, your credibility is gone.

Besides, if we want to start looking at eachother's profiles, then I can't help but notice you play a lot of Zed, so shut the fuck up because you're biased, you assassin-worshiping scumbag. Two can play the nit-pick ad hominem game by just taking a cursory look at someone's op.gg page.

Dreadlocks1 votes

[deleted]

DeloricVI1 votes

You are an uncaring asshole, and I don't wish to speak with you further, then, just proving that everyone in gold is an asshole that's just full of themselves.

Dreadlocks1 votes

No, im defending my argument, these champions arnt broken or op, you just don't know the game well enough to play well vs them.

DeloricVI1 votes

Then why did you start out all hostile? Why didn't you begin with something such as the following:

"Maybe you just don't know how to deal with these champions. Perhaps try not doing x against champion y"

Instead of that hilarious post that makes you look like a troll, a child, or both.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Because ur post was childish itself.

Dreadlocks1 votes

ROTFL U ARE SO SENSITIVE YOU REPORTED MY POST HAHA !!!

DeloricVI2 votes

You can report posts?

The Queen Viper3 votes

Assassins in general are toxic and bad for EVERY PVP game.

They are the definition of "feast or famine" and it's not healthy design.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

I'm not surprised all the assassin mains downvote since they don't want riot to notice they're abusive elitists.

Steel Blossom2 votes

Yeah, except Talon can't even outtrade most midlaners lvl 1~4. Stand in your minion wave and don't miss every single spell, I'd seriously like to see him do anything to you. Meanwhile, your range allows you to get near-free poke off on him. I feel that you're one of those people who don't respect the damage of assassins--you know, no armor runes, builds CDR and mana regen against AD mids, overextending out of greed, etc etc.

DeloricVI2 votes

The thing about talon is that you can't really kill him early game either; once he gets all his spells he has all the tools he needs to burst you down.

Also, wouldn't standing in the minion wave open you up to his Rake spell???

Also, even if you rush zhonia's you won't build it in time; I tried. Armgaurd doesn't do nearly enough. Not to mention, since it costs as much as a new champion to get more rune pages, most mids at my level/time playing doesn't have enough pages to have 2 separate rune pages for mage vs assassin and mage vs mage.

Also doesn't respect the damage of ad assassins? I get yelled at because I actively avoid talon and other assassins in team fights so I don't get destroyed. Also, do you think I actively try to kill the champions that I rant about being able to burst you to death in a second without any help? No. Even if you poke them and bully them out of lane pre-6, it doesn't matter as long as you don't kill them and get an overwhelming advantage.

That is, unless I'm missing something here.

Lańce1 votes

{quoted}

The thing about talon is that you can't really kill him early game either; once he gets all his spells he has all the tools he needs to burst you down.

Also, wouldn't standing in the minion wave open you up to his Rake spell???

Also, even if you rush zhonia's you won't build it in time; I tried. Armgaurd doesn't do nearly enough. Not to mention, since it costs as much as a new champion to get more rune pages, most mids at my level/time playing doesn't have enough pages to have 2 separate rune pages for mage vs assassin and mage vs mage.

Also doesn't respect the damage of ad assassins? I get yelled at because I actively avoid talon and other assassins in team fights so I don't get destroyed. Also, do you think I actively try to kill the champions that I rant about being able to burst you to death in a second without any help? No. Even if you poke them and bully them out of lane pre-6, it doesn't matter as long as you don't kill them and get an overwhelming advantage.

That is, unless I'm missing something here.

Lulu summoner 3 item 2043 item 3157 make him useless

DeloricVI1 votes

Yeah, when was the last time someone went lulu mid and didn't get flamed by their own team? Because it happens to me every time. Also, most of the time when I have to deal with these assassins, they pick after me.

I've tried Exhaust, doesn't do enough to their damage output to make a difference... at least, for most on the list. But there are some I haven't checked.

Pink wards do help and I use them, but you can't have a pink ward in every bush or every corner that an assassin could come from

I already said; by the time you get zhonia's, it's too late to have any meaningful effect because they've probably already killed you at least once.

Lańce2 votes

summoner 3 Janna Lulu Zilean TahmKench Shen Rammus Poppy Morgana Kindred Kayle Alistar item 3053 item 3157 item 3140 item 3155

item 2043 all these use vs assasins

DeloricVI2 votes

What happens if they pick after you? 90% of the time, when an assassin is picked, it's after I pick. Also, what did I say about qss and zhonia's? I don't consider them very reasonable. Did you even read the thread, or is this just your canned response?

Hexdrinker only stops ap assassins, and is a fair point, but who builds hexdrinker on an AP mid??? Not to mention, what if I don't play many of those champions very often? Should I hobble myself and play a champion that I don't know as well and die anyways, just because "it's good against Talon?"

FacerollKatarina1 votes

"even if you keep her in check, she's just going to roam and pick up a double kill bot, so it won't matter."

Well someones not keeping katarina in check if shes roaming bot and getting double kills

DeloricVI2 votes

I can ping and let them know she's coming, as well as try to follow up, but that doesn't mean bot isn't going to ignore me and get themselves killed.

Xeruon1 votes

Another QQ thread about Assassins that pretends to have reasoning, but actually really doesn't say anything except "All Assassins are OP Q_Q_Q_Q_Q_Q_Q"

Downvote and move on.

DeloricVI2 votes

I didn't say they all are; In fact, I state several that I find to be alright and reasonable. The ones I can't stand are the ones that can burst you down so fast that you have nothing to say to it or have escapes that are very hard to justify, especially ones that make them safe, when that is the opposite of what an assassin should be. If you can tower dive with minimal risk, then you're not an assassin... or Riot fucked up on designing a kit for an assassin.

CainMK1 votes

Yes, let's give Zed Thunderlord's and Duskblade with combination with his ulti that just teleports him far away from combat. Yes, so much counterplay to that. I mean, it's my fault if i don't dodge every single skillshot he has which he can execute a rotation of his abilities in a sec and then apply thunderlords having half my hp down. And yes, his passive which makes it so 'hard' to farm gaining more gold than the opponent. It's my fault that i can't get zhonya in time cos everytime you step up to farm you lose half hp. Yeah, i can't afford to make one mistake in lane while zed can, def my fault. So much counterplay there...

ScumbagZed1 votes

Heres the typical "this champion is op post"

I suck at playing against this champion because I have no mechanical or game skills so nerf all these champions because I can't play against them. But buff everyone I play so I can do amazing!

Answer: No, they are not "op". With so many champions in the game balance is impossible, so sure a few champions are better but there is always a counter to anything in the game. Always a way to play around something and win.

DeloricVI2 votes

This game is impossible to balance, but with champions like these, I feel like the regular players get left in the dust because the LCS champions that are flashy need to stay flashy and wreck people.

Did you people even read the end of my post, or do you just not care that I'm looking for much less hostile and negative comments?

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