Force of Nature should be removed from the final carousels

Stephenizgod·Nov 14, 2019·10 votes·5,303 views

It kind of removes any strategy since at level 9 having 10 champions is a huge advantage, like game winning advantage for absolutely no cost. Getting FoN at some point during the game is fine because you had to find the spatulas through RNG or sacrifice another item for a spat. However getting to just pick a FoN off the final carousel is like basically getting a free win. You can't really out-strategize the opponent having an extra unit (which at level 9 is most likely a 5 cost unit or Lux), they basically just roll over you with superior numbers and synergies.

Also it would be nice if you couldn't get Spat items off of Dragons/Heralds. Kind of another unfair advantage, other person gets Rageblade or Bt or something and you get a Mage cap despite having no mages in your team. You basically get half an item to their full item. Its not a huge deal, just I would prefer if we could only get non-spat items so the playing field was fair.

18 Comments

ZtokaNov 14, 20195 votes

Oddly enough, in the games I have played, most people who take FoN are some of the last picks. Unless the carousel items are trash.. Most people would pref IE, BT, rageblade etc over an extra champ.. Unless there is that rare situation where you have a high lvl champ just sitting on the bench hoping you get the FoN.

I have yet to get a spat item off a dragon that wasn't worthless. At least if they are going to do that, put some check in like if you aren't building mage, you won't get a spat item that makes a person a mage. So many games I want/need/hope for an item just to get item 3153 when I have 0 blade masters, the item to make a champ a mage when I have 0 mages on the team/bench.. Like hooray, I made it to drag for a useless item while the next guy gets item 3072 item 3124 item 3031 etc.. Seriously sucks and is another huge troll rng aspect of this mode.. Shut, show drag/rh etc w a box w/ 3 items in it and let the player pick which one they get before the round starts.. If they are afk, it randoms it.. At least that way, one would have a bit of say in an item that late in game.

StephenizgodNov 15, 20191 votes

When the game gets late enough, a random item on a random champ isn't going to be the difference between 1st and 2nd. An entire champion, most likely a 5 cost or Lux, however can turn the fight in your favor and there is nothing they can do about it. I have both won and lost games because of a FoN that late into it. Its just too powerful for RNG to be deciding winners.

Yeah the game already relies heavily on RNG more than other Auto-battler game modes. This is just another useless level of RNG that has pretty big impacts. I don't agree with picking your item, I do think it just shouldn't have Spat items at all. I mean I won a game because I got a Light spat item, then in the next carousel got FoN and put in Light Lux for 9 Light. I won because of that, I was at like 2 HP until I got the Light Spat.

FireDrizzleNov 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Oddly enough, in the games I have played, most people who take FoN are some of the last picks. Unless the carousel items are trash.. Most people would pref IE, BT, rageblade etc over an extra champ.. Unless there is that rare situation where you have a high lvl champ just sitting on the bench hoping you get the FoN.

I have yet to get a spat item off a dragon that wasn't worthless. At least if they are going to do that, put some check in like if you aren't building mage, you won't get a spat item that makes a person a mage. So many games I want/need/hope for an item just to get when I have 0 blade masters, the item to make a champ a mage when I have 0 mages on the team/bench.. Like hooray, I made it to drag for a useless item while the next guy gets etc.. Seriously sucks and is another huge troll rng aspect of this mode.. Shut, show drag/rh etc w a box w/ 3 items in it and let the player pick which one they get before the round starts.. If they are afk, it randoms it.. At least that way, one would have a bit of say in an item that late in game.

Spatula items give less stats now so this is a big issue actually.

FoodMalfaxNov 14, 20192 votes

I second this.

FireDrizzleNov 15, 20191 votes

That's nothing, in a recent game there was Mage Zed available.

StephenizgodNov 15, 20191 votes

Yea but that is only strong if you can fit in Mage. FoN is just a free champ. I don't care if someone gets Mage Zed, I can try to play around that, getting a unit advantage over me is pretty much game over once we are both max level.

KnightriftNov 16, 20191 votes

You can play around a Zed pumping out champs/copies of himself but cant work around 1 extra champ?

StephenizgodNov 16, 20191 votes

yes because you can position against zed or you can have hush or Zephyr. Zed is far from the most overpowered unit in the game anyways, he is actually not that hard to deal with. The only way Zed is difficult is if he has perfect items, but the same can be said for every 5 cost. You can't really position around someone starting with an extra unit. Every game I have played where one person has 9 units and the other has 10, the person who has 10 units wins almost every time. Having an extra 2 star 5 cost unit or Lux completely changes the game.

KnightriftNov 17, 20191 votes

Im a scrub but to me killing that 1 extra champ is no biggie compared to killing zed or waves of malz minions..

StephenizgodNov 17, 20191 votes

Thats fine, but it still proves my point. Lets say they have Zed and get FoN, any chance you had of winning is gone. Lets say they get FoN then put in Zed. You have no chance of winning there.

Just some advice though (i don't know your rank or experience with TFT so sorry if you already know this), Poison cucks Zed pretty hard, and Malzahar. Get a Singed and give him Morello. You can also position so Zed jumps onto something other than a carry, if you have Hush it makes him pretty useless. Phantom Dancer too.

Zed isn't so much of a problem for me, Olaf and Yi are the 2 biggest problems in my opinion. Glacial, Poison, and Shadow are all pretty problematic right now.

True GarenNov 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Thats fine, but it still proves my point. Lets say they have Zed and get FoN, any chance you had of winning is gone. Lets say they get FoN then put in Zed. You have no chance of winning there.

Just some advice though (i don't know your rank or experience with TFT so sorry if you already know this), Poison cucks Zed pretty hard, and Malzahar. Get a Singed and give him Morello. You can also position so Zed jumps onto something other than a carry, if you have Hush it makes him pretty useless. Phantom Dancer too.

Zed isn't so much of a problem for me, Olaf and Yi are the 2 biggest problems in my opinion. Glacial, Poison, and Shadow are all pretty problematic right now.

Odds are high that in the long game, one or more will get this item (or at least have the opportunity to build it). Need to plan for that. In most cases, it doesn't seem to be a gamechanger. In the endgame it's probably more about power arrangement. If I build 6xSummoners / 6xInfernals by putting the Cinder on Gold Azir or Silver Yorick (and maybe using the other Spatula to get the Assassin Buff), rather than using the FoN to keep Varus... not sure that I've lost much.

True GarenNov 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Thats fine, but it still proves my point. Lets say they have Zed and get FoN, any chance you had of winning is gone. Lets say they get FoN then put in Zed. You have no chance of winning there.

Just some advice though (i don't know your rank or experience with TFT so sorry if you already know this), Poison cucks Zed pretty hard, and Malzahar. Get a Singed and give him Morello. You can also position so Zed jumps onto something other than a carry, if you have Hush it makes him pretty useless. Phantom Dancer too.

Zed isn't so much of a problem for me, Olaf and Yi are the 2 biggest problems in my opinion. Glacial, Poison, and Shadow are all pretty problematic right now.

That's a pretty bad example, because Zed needs a certain kind of build, or else he's not very useful. In most builds, if he had Zed, then Zed woulda been on the board already. Besides, FoN takes up one of Zed's item slots. They would only use the Fon to give Zed an extra buff, by adding another, lesser champion. If you're already prepared to deal with Zed, a fresh unstacked Kha'Zix isn't going to be that big a difference. (Putting Youmou's on another, stronger unit is just as impactful.) (And the same goes for Yi, but perhaps even more so.)

StephenizgodNov 17, 20191 votes

You misunderstand what I am saying, also why would you put FoN on Zed?

True GarenNov 18, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You misunderstand what I am saying, also why would you put FoN on Zed?

It sounded like that's what you said:

"Lets say they have Zed and get FoN, any chance you had of winning is gone. Lets say they get FoN then put in Zed..."

That's what I was responding to.

CloudedLogicNov 18, 20191 votes

I think you are completely overstating the value of FoN.

You are making it sound like; If I didn't get that FoN I would not be allowed to field my high cost unit or my item stacked gold unit, but what is really is, is that FoN purely translates to being allowed to field your weakest unit. Which only amounts to getting synergy bonuses (if any), and 600, or perhaps even 1100 more hp with like 50-90 AD in most cases.

Its not, "wow, now I can run 2 zeds/yis." Because if I have a second zed or yi, I want to get them to silver not field two bronze copies (one of which will have no items).

Another way to think of it is, if I did not have a FoN who am I taking off this team, because that is all you got for grabbing FoN.

So yes, FoN is decent non-situationally. You can get a 2 point synergy or possibly finish a 3 point one without sacrificing a 6 light/4 shadow but you weren't going to give up that 6 light/4 shadow for 15% dodge chance or the swordmaster bonus, and chances are if you have the units worth running to get those bonuses, they were already a part of your comp anyway. but many of the other items are situationally better (in some cases better isn't a strong enough word to describe it), and chances are good that you have at least one of those situations in your hand to exploit.

All in all, very rarely have I seen someone grab Force of Nature from the carousal and actually turn the game around to a 1st or 2nd place if they weren't already doing well. Usually its snatched up by one of the people doing the worst who go on to get eliminated in the next few rounds.

But that is just my opinion on things. Really in my experience FoN does most of its damage when someone manages to get one before wolves, where there are less synergies on the board, and having an extra bronze or silver unit without leveling up makes a much larger impact (doubly so if they get a bonus like shadow or glacial out it I guess).

StephenizgodNov 19, 20191 votes

In my experience, when there are two people left, the person who grabs FoN (assuming neither person has one already) wins the game hands down regardless of who was winning beforehand. And almost always they sell a stacked unit they are trying to 3star put in a Yi, Zed, Singed, or a Lux and give them the items. That late into the game, an advantage is 5x as effective. Simply moving one unit can be the difference between winning the round or losing it horribly. So an extra unit is pretty much game over.

CloudedLogicNov 20, 20191 votes

Nothing stops them from doing that without fon, so it still basically just amounts to a potential synergy at that point.

StephenizgodNov 20, 20191 votes

they have to sacrifice a unit and possible synergy, with FoN they don't they can just add a new synergy or add to a synergy.