Riot please listen to the item RNG community criticism ....

peacepagoda·Jul 1, 2019·135 votes·20,820 views

I've worked in and observed the video game industry for the last 30 years, why do large companies take so long to hear the most obvious things sometimes.

The community has loudly spoken about item rng and the fact that they don't want to find themselves down items right at the start of the game. Heck theres TONS of posts front page asking for this change, its not like I'm psychic or going to another site such as reddit. Not one of them has a person says ya I like it this way or there should be more rng.

Yet, somehow in your most recent update on items, you want to only make slight changes this instead of just listening and giving whats asked for. Nobody wants to get 1 item at the start of the match, while the other guy gets 3-4. Christ people will like it more play it more and you'll make more money. Just give a item at the first 3 minion rounds for a total of 3, then maybe give 1-2 the next minion rounds, depending on difficulty. There fixed. What two cents do you guys have in it that it remains so random??????????????? Theres a reason Dota Underlords normalized items, it was because it was the NUMBER 1 gripe.

86 Comments

Bigdog102Jul 1, 201913 votes

Yeah the rng items was bs, I litterally lost a game and died early. Cause for the first 3 minion rounds No items dropped for me, so i was behind heavily in strength and just outright lost

LeetriJul 1, 20199 votes

If you died early it's 100% not just the items. Sure, they contributed, but you need to have bad drafting, economy and placement (compared to everyone else in the game at least) to lose every round. I've won several games where I don't put any items on my guys early on because I'm not sure what I want to build yet, or because I don't get any of the good combinations.

AzraexJul 1, 201911 votes

Imagine if every round, instead of having 5 champions available in your shop, you had 0-5 champions available. So it would be possible to get 0 champions in your shop every round, and be incapable of buying any.

Imagine if every round, a coin was flipped to decide if you get any gold or XP. One person gets gold and XP every round, while someone else never receives any.

Imagine if you had to flip a coin to decide if you get to pick a champion from the carousel. Players who lose the coin flip are moved into a nearby cage where they get to watch the other players make champion selections.

No matter how you cut it, this item RNG is ridiculous and needs to stop. All players should have the same number of items available to them. Period.

peacepagodaJul 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Imagine if every round, instead of having 5 champions available in your shop, you had 0-5 champions available. So it would be possible to get 0 champions in your shop every round, and be incapable of buying any.

Imagine if every round, a coin was flipped to decide if you get any gold or XP. One person gets gold and XP every round, while someone else never receives any.

Imagine if you had to flip a coin to decide if you get to pick a champion from the carousel. Players who lose the coin flip are moved into a nearby cage where they get to watch the other players make champion selections.

No matter how you cut it, this item RNG is ridiculous and needs to stop. All players should have the same number of items available to them. Period.

Dear god no....

About30ninjazzJul 1, 20194 votes

Also if I can add one more thing maybe not have a shared pool eng champs for everyone and make the ops rare.

Z3SleeperJul 1, 201917 votes

Shared pool is specifically to keep everyone from being able to go for the same thing. So long as there isn't a single comp that's better than everything else 100% of the time, this is an okay way of doing things.

As for the "ops" just balance them. Done.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Shared pool is specifically to keep everyone from being able to go for the same thing. So long as there isn't a single comp that's better than everything else 100% of the time, this is an okay way of doing things.

As for the "ops" just balance them. Done.

The shared pool is also a balancing mechanism. When you have a shared pool, the game will have "OP" picks. However, if 7 players all go for the OP team comp, it means everyone is gonna be trying to farm a minuscule amount of units. Conversely, this means even a subpar comp will shine as you'll have more 2-3 stars than the "op" comp with a bunch of one-stars.

hugemikeJul 2, 20191 votes

I guess many of you have never played a draft game in your life. A shared pool is the only thing currently keeping the game alive.

The EcdysiastJul 2, 20192 votes

What it does is push the game even further into randomness instead of balance. When someone who already got lucky on their drops and roles can just steal your champions so you can't possibly make up the difference, how's that fair?

You've got your reasoning backwards. It's fine for people to build the same thing, as long as there isn't a single best comp. Because that is when people will always be building the same thing. Now, though, if there's a best comp in addition to the shared pool, then one person can get it because they already got lucky, and prevent everyone else from catching up.

And even then, they don't have to prevent people from copying their comp. It can just as easily be abused to prevent others from even making a comp. So even if each comp has strengths on par with each other, it's still up to the luckiest person to just buy and resell the champs the other people need.

Z3SleeperJul 2, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=Zvhx1YOx,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-02T03:17:55.003+0000)

...can just steal your champions so you can't possibly make up the difference, how's that fair?

If they make a tier 3/tier 2, the champs that got merged are back in the pool. /thread

Also if people are going for the same thing, they end up dicking each other over and some other guy that built something else wins. Happens all the time.

The EcdysiastJul 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

If they make a tier 3, the champs are back in the pool.

They won't be making a tier 3 if they're just taking the champs from a different comp to prevent you from getting them.

Z3SleeperJul 2, 20191 votes

Then they're wasting econ.

The EcdysiastJul 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Then they're wasting econ.

They're not. That's the point. They can do so because they already got what they needed.

Z3SleeperJul 2, 20191 votes

8 players in a game. Screwing over 1 guy isn't gonna make the other 6 any less of a threat.

Also yes they are. It's extremely, EXTREMELY rare for a comp to ever hit full possible build (I don't think it's even possible). Which means they are indeed hampering their own success as well.

And what even are they gonna do? Hold 2x of 3 of the units you're building? Your comp obviously utilizes more than just those 3, so adapt if someone does this anyway. Noone is gonna keep you from finding ONE one star unit of a certain champ if you absolutely need them for a set bonus.

This also means that they're preventing themselves from building anything else, which means they're gonna get crushed as well.

The EcdysiastJul 2, 20191 votes

You're not quite getting it. You can buy and resell them, and they don't go back in the pool. You can do that for your entire pool, screwing over multiple people without losing any gold.

Z3SleeperJul 2, 20191 votes

That already happens right now. Increasing shop count doesn't increase bench size, so this doesn't affect it whatsoever.

DyromicJul 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Shared pool is specifically to keep everyone from being able to go for the same thing. So long as there isn't a single comp that's better than everything else 100% of the time, this is an okay way of doing things.

As for the "ops" just balance them. Done.

Yesterday I was in a game where 4 of us were going for a Noble bonus. In the end, all of us got the bonus and literally crushed the others with a bunch of 2 and 1 star units. Currently Noble comp is just unbalanced and should be nerfed because if someone manages to build it there's literally no other comp that can counter it aside from Sorcerors (and noone plays Sorcerors because they are undertuned).

Z3SleeperJul 2, 20191 votes

Sorcerer and Void counter Noble.

Dragon, Demon, Yordle, Shapeshifter and Elementalist by extension do fine vs Noble (since they can utilize Sorc/Void).

Glacial is also pretty even vs Noble through sheer CC.

Currently the most meta comp is Void Assassin, a comp that completely hard-counters Noble.

Also Sorcerers aren't under-tuned at all.

DahaakaJul 1, 20194 votes

i made a post about it too, just as many others, if we make more maybe they start to pay attention?

AwoofJul 2, 20191 votes

They already said they plan to reduce the variance in item drops a while ago, but not many people seem to have seen that

ﬂooJul 1, 20194 votes

Item rng sometimes really is garbage. If you don't get any early on you should at least get more in later creep rounds and vice versa.

Btw it is easily possible to win without a lot of damage items, go for full brawler, knight, guardian etc. with i.e. red buff + titanic, hp and def stacking... You basically just steamroll most enemies.

ChaosReynJul 1, 20191 votes

Knight/Guardian with a BT/WM/SoS Morde is ridiculous. You can't kill him, he blocks too much, he bahes your fckin skull in constantly, and pretty much the only thing that can deal enough burst damage to take him out is hypercarry Draven with full Blademaster buff, or Hypercarry Ashe with full ranger buff.

ﬂooJul 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Knight/Guardian with a BT/WM/SoS Morde is ridiculous. You can't kill him, he blocks too much, he bahes your fckin skull in constantly, and pretty much the only thing that can deal enough burst damage to take him out is hypercarry Draven with full Blademaster buff, or Hypercarry Ashe with full ranger buff.

I haven't tried morde yet, because he falls off quite fast and isn't as strong anyway.

MórríganJul 1, 20194 votes

I believe that there should be fixed number of item drops, just the items themselves random. Every creep drops something? Or every pve round a drop. Because it's unfair when you have only 1 part of an item and other have like 2-3 full items [sg-soraka]

ZeManelDosLobosJul 1, 20192 votes

Also they should make the RNG component way less decisive of the matches' outcome:

Make the loot drops more consistent (snowballs way too much when you high roll).
Make it so that you never face the same opponent twice (despite that restriction, it is still random whoever you're going to face other than your last opponent)

General Esdeath Jul 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I've worked in and observed the video game industry for the last 30 years, why do large companies take so long to hear the most obvious things sometimes.

Because Riot doesn't look at the boards except for memes, story, and concepts and creations. They just disregard what players want and focus on making more skins and getting more money out of people.

The community has loudly spoken about item rng and the fact that they don't want to find themselves down items right at the start of the game. Heck theres TONS of posts front page asking for this change, its not like I'm psychic or going to another site such as reddit. Not one of them has a person says ya I like it this way or there should be more rng.

Yet, somehow you decide that making a change that only slightly changes this instead of just listening and giving whats asked for. No body wants to get 1 item at the start of the match, while the other guy gets 3-4. Christ people will like it more play it more and you'll make more money. Just give a item at the first 3 minion rounds for a total of 3, then maybe give 1-2 the next minion rounds, depending on difficulty. There fixed. What two cents do you guys have in it that it remains so random???????????????

Welcome to Riot

CyceraJul 1, 20192 votes

Honestly, I'd just be happy if everyone at least got the same amount of items from each farm round even if they are random. The random factor is a little fun in my opinion, but it's quite ridiculous for what is supposed to be a strategy mode. Strategy shouldn't take a back seat to the rng.

DWlGHT K SCHRUTEJul 2, 20192 votes

Sorry but the RNG in TFT is ridiculous. Players can get No items in the first 3 fights of the game and another can get 5!! That player ends of winning the game from snowballing so far ahead just cuz he/she got 'lucky'.

The RNG should be WHAT you get, not how many items drop.

PROchiefJul 1, 20191 votes

you guys are just really bad at the game. stop crying

finecutsJul 1, 201913 votes

How are we bad at the game? RNG is an unfair mechanic to have in a STRATEGY game. For instance you could get no items in the first 3 rounds while someone got a guinsoos and bf sword on a vayne. Not fair or fun.

Power MacJul 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

How are we bad at the game? RNG is an unfair mechanic to have in a STRATEGY game. For instance you could get no items in the first 3 rounds while someone got a guinsoos and bf sword on a vayne. Not fair or fun.

It's just like poker. Of course, you need to know the rules, how to adapt to situations and have some instinct for "re-rolls": but quite a good part of it is sheer luck.

DahaakaJul 1, 20195 votes

alright here is a situation, u got 0 item ur opponent 6 at stage 3, then he immediately gets 2 rank 2 champs how u beat that? tell the skill we need here.

Kei143Jul 1, 20194 votes

Didn't you read meddler's post?

They'll be curbing item RNG in the first 3 rounds where you are guaranteed an item while guaranteed not to get 6 items.

Also all full PvE clears after will guarentee an item drop.

ChaosReynJul 1, 20192 votes

Not everyone has twitter - some avoid it, specifically. :P

It's a good step to give a guaranteed item on PvE clears. I'm not concerned about the RNG of someone getting 2 or 3 from PvE, as much as it just feels bad to play the game, clear the PvE camp, and get nothing from it. Particularly if you're already playing from behind, manage to clear the PvE camp, and realize you just got totally shafted and have to wait until the next carousel (and 3 more PvP losses) to try and find something to help you turn the tides. The fact that 1st place cleared it and got a completed Phantom Dancer and Deathcap from it is just insult to injury at that point.

DahaakaJul 1, 20191 votes

Nope i didn't see any post about it, could you link it please?

Kei143Jul 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

We're talking about possible tweaks to TFT item distribution. We do believe though that significant randomness, including variation in early power, is pretty valuable for the longeivity of the game. Examples of that in other genres are things like starting hand in Magic/Hearthstone, what you draw in poker, early loot in a Battle Royale etc. Playing from positions of strength or weakness result in a wider variety of experiences.

Having said that there are some things that feel off to us at present that we're highly likely to change, likely (but not guaranteed) in 9.14. Those are:

Players should never finish the first 3 rounds without at least one item component dropping

Players should never have 6 item components from PVE after the first 3 rounds

Players should never get zero items from a later PVE round (Krugs onwards) if they kill everything

DahaakaJul 1, 20191 votes

Nice to know! thx

NaramielJul 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Didn't you read meddler's post?

They'll be curbing item RNG in the first 3 rounds where you are guaranteed an item while guaranteed not to get 6 items.

Also all full PvE clears after will guarentee an item drop.

Wait, so their fix to "too much item RNG" is "now some players will get 1 and some will get 5? I agree that that is better than the present situation, but only barely. It's depressing that they consider that to be "problem solved".

Kei143Jul 3, 20191 votes

Eh .. 5v1 items while may be strong early game, doesn't always translate into late game. At least theres a better come back mechanic where you are guaranteed get items every win in a PvE round.

14daysuspensionkJul 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

you guys are just really bad at the game. stop crying

The game is fucking random based.

ChaosReynJul 1, 20193 votes

It's called TACTICS, not STRATEGY.

You guys are playing the wrong game...this isn't a strategy game, it's more akin to a deck-building game. Deck building games are one part building, and two parts luck of what you can get at any point of the game.

Yes, it's "random based", but that "random base" is kind of like playing Ascension - you buy the cards out of the middle, and you get what you get.

I hope that helps you re-envision your goals here. This isn't as simple as "I'm building Wild/Shapeshifter/Sorcerer!" It's "what can I do with what I have available? I can upgrade Morde, so maybe I should go for knights. I can also put a Rageblade and PD on this Kassadin, so maybe I can push for Void or Sorcerer. If I can get a Karthus..."

peacepagodaJul 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It's called TACTICS, not STRATEGY.

You guys are playing the wrong game...this isn't a strategy game, it's more akin to a deck-building game. Deck building games are one part building, and two parts luck of what you can get at any point of the game.

Yes, it's "random based", but that "random base" is kind of like playing Ascension - you buy the cards out of the middle, and you get what you get.

I hope that helps you re-envision your goals here. This isn't as simple as "I'm building Wild/Shapeshifter/Sorcerer!" It's "what can I do with what I have available? I can upgrade Morde, so maybe I should go for knights. I can also put a Rageblade and PD on this Kassadin, so maybe I can push for Void or Sorcerer. If I can get a Karthus..."

Its still going to be luck the 1 item you get per round. would you prefer if they only gave you 3 champs to choose each round or 5? you want more rng, how about we get to choose 2 champs each round instead of 5. Is that more in line with tactics?

ChaosReynJul 1, 20191 votes

I honestly don't understand your question here. The overall point doesn't change at all: you get what you get. You have the choice between your 5, you have the choice to reroll at any time to try a different 5, and you most importantly have the choice of what to do during this entire time on a macro level - if you're getting a load of knights, go knights. If you're getting a load of nothing, but all that nothing is ranking up well, there's nothing that says you can't sell it when you find something and just run with an army of upgraded units that don't necessarily fit together.

You're wanting it to be a game where you build the way you want, but that's not how it's designed. It's a game where you build from what you can get. The strategy is to simply do the best with what you get, consistently, until you can finally get to the point that you can accomplish what you want. Most of the time if you can simply keep up with consistency, you'll outlast like 6 of the people in your game long before you manage to get to it being about building your way.

peacepagodaJul 1, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I honestly don't understand your question here. The overall point doesn't change at all: you get what you get. You have the choice between your 5, you have the choice to reroll at any time to try a different 5, and you most importantly have the choice of what to do during this entire time on a macro level - if you're getting a load of knights, go knights. If you're getting a load of nothing, but all that nothing is ranking up well, there's nothing that says you can't sell it when you find something and just run with an army of upgraded units that don't necessarily fit together.

You're wanting it to be a game where you build the way you want, but that's not how it's designed. It's a game where you build from what you can get. The strategy is to simply do the best with what you get, consistently, until you can finally get to the point that you can accomplish what you want. Most of the time if you can simply keep up with consistency, you'll outlast like 6 of the people in your game long before you manage to get to it being about building your way.

The point I'm making is that yes rng is a part of the game, which is what your defending, but does there need to be as much. I was showing you that hypothetically riot could make the game super rng with no choices, but who wants that? Riot wants feedback from players. Your basically saying, no this is the way the game is supposed to be and you sight your examples, however the player base is saying they don't want that much rng, which is what riot wants to hear. so why defend the game design which is in the middle of being made and decided on.

Do you want more rng? If so state that, don't defend the games design as its how its supposed to be when its open ended at this point.

Flawless FetusJul 1, 20194 votes

Except here you don't build your deck. Lol. You're assigned random cards at the start of the game, and may have been given half as many cards as your opponent. Have you played a card building game? Also, do you know what the word "tactics" means? Lol

Lazy GrandpaJul 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It's called TACTICS, not STRATEGY.

You guys are playing the wrong game...this isn't a strategy game, it's more akin to a deck-building game. Deck building games are one part building, and two parts luck of what you can get at any point of the game.

Yes, it's "random based", but that "random base" is kind of like playing Ascension - you buy the cards out of the middle, and you get what you get.

I hope that helps you re-envision your goals here. This isn't as simple as "I'm building Wild/Shapeshifter/Sorcerer!" It's "what can I do with what I have available? I can upgrade Morde, so maybe I should go for knights. I can also put a Rageblade and PD on this Kassadin, so maybe I can push for Void or Sorcerer. If I can get a Karthus..."

it's not a tactics game when you and everyone else pulls from the same pool of ''cards'', there isn't even a deck to build. i don't get to actually influence how i get to play! i have to completely rely on rng to get my shit. the only strategy this game has are the classes and races, and probrably spamming f1 -> f9 to check which champions others have so you can eliminate and increase probability of certain champs and reroll based off of that. matter of fact, the enemy can even do the same and cuck you out of a build if he's already ahead.

oh and by the way, that very last paragraph in quotes is what goes through literaly everybodies minds in a last ditch effort to make a difference and perhaps win, but there in lies the problem. that is completely rng and luck based! such tactics, such strategy, much wow. 100% at the mercy of rng at that point not just your own, but the enemy's too.

i hope this gets ranked and everybody becomes incredibly frustrated and hates it. just because they decided it was going to be a permanent normal/ranked mode before it even launched in beta, when they blatantly just copied autochess, with some league fluff and carousel. i'm salty about that. where are my proper random game modes?

ChaosReynJul 1, 20191 votes

If that paragraph is your last ditch effort, you started way too late. >.>

Though I agree with what you mean by "proper game modes" - I really don't see why this should be ranked. It's not really LoL as we know it. I would still concede they should rank-up Nexus Blitz - it still has RNG elements, and it sort of feels like full-interactive Mario Party, but at least it's something with a skill-cap better known and embraced by this community, unlike TFT, where everyone seems to presume that luck is the absolute factor instead of efficiency.

PhreaktasticJul 1, 20194 votes

With items in the state that they are, it absolutely is random. When you can receive 0 items, and another player can get 3 upgraded items, all within the confines of Phase 1, it is random. There's literally ZERO way to counter that, and making good decisions only works if the player who received the extreme item advantage does not make good decisions.

The champs/champ pool is all fine. I get it, capitalize on what you get, not on what you want. I fully understand and embrace that sentiment, and actually really enjoy that aspect. The items are the only thing that deters from that, however, as there is literally no way to actually "player smarter" in respect to the items. If you get screwed on items, the only thing you can do is hope the person who got all the items is playing like a noob. Outside of capitalizing on the champs you receive to the highest level of gameplay possible, there's nothing that can be done in terms of a massive item advantage vs deficit. You can hope the items aren't utilized in the most effective way possible, but that's it.

If you go against someone who receives favor from the item RNG gods, and they are capable of making good decisions with their champs, you are 100% at a disadvantage that you cannot recover from. The only exception is if you get incredibly lucky, and the champs you're able to capitalize on happen to be a great synergy which directly counters their board. Even then, a smart player will purchase the higher tier champs necessary for that strategy to prevent you from getting them, thus reducing your chances of hitting the last breakpoint(s).

KydenyoldenJul 18, 20191 votes

Tactics game "You have 10 seconds to set up your units, everything else is rng based" Good thing Rito isnt in charge of anyones military or the ywould be fucked.