Boards›[ARCHIVED] Gameplay+

Ally Minion Block Should Be Removed

Stephenizgod··197 votes·46,090 views

First off I want to start by saying, I don't know what happened in the last few season but minion block has gotten out of control. Before, you just pathed kind of weird but you would move around minions. Now you just glitch back and forth or spin around or you are stuck in walk animation but not moving.

Also I want to be clear, I am going to use the word "mobility" a lot, I am referring to Dashes, Flashes, and Leaps. Certain champs have MS boosts, which is mobility, however they are still effected by minion block.

Minion block used to be an actual mechanic to be aware of in lane, certain champions and items even had built in-mechanics to deal with it. Now with mobility creep, only a few low mobility champions are really impacted by it. With the unknown changes to how you path around minions causing you to be essentially stuck in a broken animation, it is just straight up a disadvantage to anyone without mobility.

This is even more a problem on champions that summon pets, like Yorick. The other day I summoned Maiden and had 3 ghouls, I landed an E on an enemy who then flashed over a wall and out of vision while I was attacking them. Since they no longer had a target they began attacking the minions that had aggro'd to me. This pinned me against a wall for about 6 seconds until I could throw my E at my opponent again and force them to move. I was literally stuck with no way to move, I clicked frantically and nothing was working. This was about 6 seconds of not being able to move, if my opponent was a ranged champion I would have been dead for free due to a broken mechanic.

Speaking of, this mechanic clearly favors Ranged champions over Melee champions in an already skewed match-up. Ranged champions don't have to deal with this problem since they don't need to run through 2 waves of minions to engage. Even if they do get minion blocked, they can still Auto-attack from a distance which makes it less of a problem.

So the solution in my opinion should be to remove Ally Minion Block.

Should We Remove All Minion Block?

No. Enemy minion block should stay, you should have to consider this before blindly charging into your enemy. While this still favors Ranged over Melee in a Ranged vs Melee lane, it is a valuable safety measure in the Bot lane where it is a 2v2 sometimes 3v2.

Won't This Just Make Ranged vs Melee Lanes Worse?

Yes, by itself it would make this match-up a lot worse. In order to counter-act this, minion aggro would need to be changed for Ranged champions. Personally I think it is a bit unfair that Ranged champions can poke then back off a few steps to break aggro without actually being in any danger of losing CS or EXp. Meanwhile Melee Champions can't get anywhere near the wave. So I have 2 proposed changes that may balance this out:

  • Ranged Minions have increased range against Ranged Champions. No change to Melee Minions as increasing their aggro range may allow too much lane manipulation by Ranged Champions. Obviously breaking sight/vision would stop aggro as it does now.

  • A stacking damage buff to minions, every time a Ranged Champion gains and loses aggro minions will gain a temporary boost to damage. This would stack up to say 10 times and stacks would fall off after a few seconds, like lets say 3-5 seconds.

Potential issues? Well this could drastically effect Bot Lane where there is generally 2-3 Ranged champs and 1-2 Melee champs. It may or may not be a problem, I am a bit unsure on it so I don't really have a suggestion on it. Open to suggestions/discussion.

Why Not Just Push the Minions Out of the Way?

I believe this would become a problem of lane manipulation, you would be able to push your minions to have an advantage in the first couple waves. In order to not have a disadvantage, the other person would need to do it too. Then it becomes a necessity for both teams to do it. It would be easier to just remove ally minion block entirely and have both teams start off on equal ground.

What About Champions That Have the Ability to Ignore Unit Collision?

They still get to ignore enemy minion block so I don't see a problem here.

What Happens to Ally Pets?

I think Unit Collision with ally pets should be removed, but there would obviously be no change to their aggro. They would retain any collision they have with each other, minions, enemy champions, or other pets. This would only affect Ally Champions.

Frankly I just don't see a point in ally minion block, I never did to be honest but at least before it wasn't as broken as it is now. It doesn't happen often enough to be a huge problem, but when it does happen it is tragic and feels bad. This is one of those situations where you are fighting against the mechanics of the game, which is usually a sign that something isn't working properly.

What are you thoughts on it? I am open to suggestions.

EDIT: Getting a lot of comments on this and I just can't respond to them all. A lot of people who disagree are mentioning very specific circumstances where no ally minion block would be an issue for balance. I just want to say that 90% of these comments, those issues already exist in game. There is nothing stopping you from sitting in your minions, as I said in the above post, minion block is only a huge problem in situations where your pathing causes you to get stuck. Otherwise you rarely have issue running through minions, other than odd pathing every once in awhile. Sitting in your minions is a valid strategy that exists in the game right now, specially against skillshot reliant opponents. 9 out of 10 times you run through your minions with no problem or even acknowledging that unit collision exists, but that 1 out of 10 times you are stuck for no reason and die because a broken buggy game mechanic. It is only 1 out of 10 times, but thats enough for me that it needs to be removed. I mean i doubt majority of the player base would even notice if it was gone.

I don't quite understand the issue some are having of an enemy bully, such as Darius, sitting in his minions and getting free harass on you everytime you go to farm... that already happens... This would only make it easier for you to go in towards CS and out through your minions. Yes, it would allow Darius to do the same through his minions, but generally Darius is standing between you and your CS. Most lane bullies will, so i am not sure how that relates to my post.

Standing on Minions to block CS with a large champion is another matter though. I agree this may be a problem, however this is one of those "see how it plays out" situations. It may be worth blocking 1-2 minions every wave or you take a crap ton of free damage from the enemy while they try to CS. Cho'gath and Sion can already do this and I don't see too many people complaining about it.

77 Comments

flibitydoo48 votes

Question you didn't address: What's stopping me from invalidating the existence of Morgana, Blitz, Nid,etc. by just standing inside my minions so no skillshot can ever hit me?

Another question: What's stopping me from picking Darius, Hecarim, Singed, Yasuo standing on top of the melee minions, and you, a pure melee champion that can only last hit through melee range autos (jax, garen, riven, etc.) being forced to eat Q damage every time you walk up to CS?

Stephenizgod3 votes

Well to address both your questions, I already mentioned it in my post:

It doesn't happen often enough to be a huge problem

See so neither of those issues are going to be exacerbated, in fact standing in or behind your minions is a valuable strategy against those champions. And in the second case, that already happens? I don't quite understand the question. With Darius and yasuo and singed, they already bully you away when you come close to farm. I don't understand how removing your own ally minion collision does anything but help in this case?

Votable Jester5 votes

There's a big difference between hiding behind minions and hiding in minions. You have to move a lot more to stay behind a minion than to be hidden inside one for one thing. For another, you can have difficulty escaping a gank if you're behind minions (they forced you to an odd angle).

Removing ally collision also makes those melee bullies able to escape ganks more easily, there's no punishment for sitting in their minions denying your farm.

DragonIgnis14 votes

{quoted}

Question you didn't address: What's stopping me from invalidating the existence of Morgana, Blitz, Nid,etc. by just standing inside my minions so no skillshot can ever hit me?

Another question: What's stopping me from picking Darius, Hecarim, Singed, Yasuo standing on top of the melee minions, and you, a pure melee champion that can only last hit through melee range autos (jax, garen, riven, etc.) being forced to eat Q damage every time you walk up to CS?

Both of those things are already a thing though.

Minions are intended to body block those skill shots. You can claim that now you can occupy the same space as a minion but most if not all champions have a larger hit box than minions. Standing on top of a minion will cause you to still get hit. You'll still need to stand behind minions to avoid skill shots.

As for zoning, the situation is the same. A Darius can already stand right in front of/behind his minions. If the change were implemented, the only difference is that champions who zone will be slightly closer. Another possible difference is, depending on how the minions line up, champions like Darius will be in a better position to punish because they'll no longer be walled off by their own minions. Minions aren't intended to wall off anybody so this can't be an excuse to keep minion block.

The biggest problem with ignoring ally minion block is when you're chasing someone and then they run through their own minions. You'll have to go around the minions instead, thereby creating extra distance.

DuskDaUmbreon8 votes

You're forgetting one key thing:

What's stopping a Cho'gath or whatever from physically sitting on top of his cannon to stop you from killing it, if you can just stand on your minions?

DragonIgnis3 votes

{quoted}

You're forgetting one key thing:

What's stopping a Cho'gath or whatever from physically sitting on top of his cannon to stop you from killing it, if you can just stand on your minions?

the cannon minion will move with the wave, cho can't farm*, he's a sitting duck to your harass, and Riot can make a "target minions only" function

*cannon minions are ranged and champs with large character models tend to be melee; even if cho uses his ranged spells, he's burning mana and cooldowns when he could be using basic attacks

it's easy to think up a problem but you should try intentionally body blocking the targeting system before claiming that the problem exists

CaptainSeto9 votes

The large amount of free damage you get on him, while he tries to prevent you from getting some gold. His hitbox, late game in particular, is so large that he could block several minions, in exchange for you getting free damage off, and even killing him. I don't think that it'd be worth losing health just to prevent minor gold gains, even more so when you open yourself up to being killed and negating your goal of trying to stop the enemy from getting gold.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Many champions have to be in melee range to do that though, in which case Cho is hitting back. It is also completely worth taking 2-3 auto attacks in return for denying a cannon minion.

XeroKimo7 votes

The idea of removing half the minion collision on each team imo will be flawed no matter what. You've addressed the abuse that can happen with ranged, but in general, the running away team will then always have the upper hand on getting away. Unless the enemy was a Yasuo, you don't have to face the consequences of minion block when running, while the enemy does is whole heartily unfair, even if both sides would have to go through this unfairness as who knows which side is giving chase. Something I do agree on is pet removing pets from collision with only the controlling champion, this can potentially add some form of skill impression, well it kinda does already if you can manage to body block an enemy with a pet, but you as the owner shouldn't be getting cucked by your own pet, especially since you have to manage it's behavior alongside your own

Stephenizgod2 votes

The issue is as it is right now, its more unfair. Certain champs have the advantage due to a buggy mechanic that looks and feels bad. If we implement my ideas, it is fair for both sides. Both sides have to equally deal with this problem, they both benefit and have to play around.

Bârd4 votes

I disagree.

I think Riot should keep it, and in fact I think riot should expand on body-blocking as a game mechanic, because there's a lot of potential there.

I want to see montages of Ivern preventing a poor Jinx from escaping by skillfully micromanaging Daisy into blocking her path to allow his team to catch up. I want to see Heimerdinger flashing mastery as he blocks off the raptor bush with four turrets to aid in his escape. I want to see Nasus bodyblocking his creeps on his way to lane to start the game with a freeze outside his own tower. I want to see Cho'gath going from a "meatshield" to a literal wall of meat stopping the enemy Garen in his tracks.

I also want to see itemization choices that allow you to bypass bodyblocking by removing collision or empower your bodyblocking by increasing your size (PD, Stoneplate, I'm looking at you).

DarkSoul199410 votes

######Ally Minion Block Ally Minion Block Ally Minion Block ##Ally Minion Block #Ally Minion Block

Bârd1 votes

I'd still like to see people slowing down their creep waves.

DarkSoul19945 votes

No. That's fucking stupid. There are already plenty of ways to manage and manipulate your own minion waves. Not to mention that right now if a champ unit blocks a minion it blinks to where it should be.

Hupsis3 votes

Just gonna leave this here.

https://webmshare.com/play/d66Xv

I believe enemy minion block also needs some adjusting :/ Or maybe it's a problem with pathing around them.

Neptunia xoxo1 votes

{quoted}

Just gonna leave this here.

https://webmshare.com/play/d66Xv

I believe enemy minion block also needs some adjusting :/ Or maybe it's a problem with pathing around them.

Honestly that guy had such an easy time getting out of there without flashing but he was just next level stupid. I rarely see minion block happen nowadays even on melee champions

Hupsis2 votes

This thing literally happened in 2 seconds. Do you expect people to react to unexpected things logically in that time frame?

Keep your ignorant insults to yourself next time... makes you look cheap.

Neptunia xoxo1 votes

{quoted}

This thing literally happened in 2 seconds. Do you expect people to react to unexpected things logically in that time frame?

Keep your ignorant insults to yourself next time... makes you look cheap.

Oh so it's smart to just click in one single direction for 2-4 seconds then say fuck it and yolo flash? aight stay bad I guess

Hupsis1 votes

Turret attack speed is 0.83 attacks per second, 3 hits would take 2.5 seconds. Turret hit me 2 times which means this all happened under 2.5 seconds.

If I hadn't flashed I would have taken another tower shot and lost enough health to probably die in the next fight.

Sure if this happened outside of turret range I would have taken my time to click around the minions. But I ain't sacrificing another 30% of my health and in worse case scenario potentially taking a fourth turret shot and die while trying to navigate around minions that already once proved to have f'd up collision.

PhDs Nuts4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Neptunia xoxo,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=ZEdJNvVe,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-08-22T23:41:10.222+0000)

Honestly that guy had such an easy time getting out of there without flashing but he was just next level stupid. I rarely see minion block happen nowadays even on melee champions

Not sure how that's true. I play almost exclusively melee champions top lane, and it's a meme at this point in the group I play with that I get minion blocked every game.

One example of many: https://plays.tv/video/5aeabfb4dcc00f84bc/creep-block-ftw?from=user

Glory973 votes

There are multiple games out there that feature unit collision in a 3rd person gameplay. And in the vast majority of it, is programmed in a way, that you can get used to the unit collision pretty fast. You would know what you can do and what you can't, and the units would not trap you completly. The unit collision does not feel conter-intuitve or frustrating, but just like every other mechanic of the game.

It's a shame that a multi-billion-dollar company called riot-games can't programm this feature properly. And there is no need for some suboptimal bandaid-fix. They just need to redo the creepblock properly.

Dorans Pants1 votes

{quoted}

There are multiple games out there that feature unit collision in a 3rd person gameplay. And in the vast majority of it, is programmed in a way, that you can get used to the unit collision pretty fast. You would know what you can do and what you can't, and the units would not trap you completly. The unit collision does not feel conter-intuitve or frustrating, but just like every other mechanic of the game.

It's a shame that a multi-billion-dollar company called riot-games can't programm this feature properly. And there is no need for some suboptimal bandaid-fix. They just need to redo the creepblock properly.

but that would take time, effort and money --------> not gonna happen, unless it´s COMPLETELY breaking the game or we can make money off of it

Glory971 votes

Riot completly reworked the runes system. The old rune system didn't break the game, it was actually great. And reworking it took time, effort and money, and they don't directly make profit off it. We are playing on of the few free-to-play that is not pay2win. And we are even allowed to get premium content from chests. If Riot had the attitude that you described above, there would be a lot of think different...

HéntaiSénpai3 votes

Minions having their "presence" in lane is fine. I just want the pathing fixed. I shouldn't be stuck twisting back and forth until I die because the game can't figure out the correct path to take.

rtbf2256182413 votes

Why is downvoting disabled on this? Just asking.

Stephenizgod4 votes

to promote a healthy conversation i believe.

Malak5 votes

{quoted}

to promote a healthy conversation i believe.

not sure why downvoting prevents a healthy conversation

CleverCactus3 votes

People tend to downvote someone they disagree with in an attempt to silence them. It also causes a mob-mentality sort of thing, if they see one person has negative points they tend to instantly think "This person is wrong" right off the bat, before they even read the comment.

Divewing1 votes

Because people use it as an "I disagree" button, which is not the intended function.

The intended function is to filter out discussions which don't contribute anything. This is effectively unnecessary in GPlay+ as all threads are moderated before they are put out.

Limrick2 votes

Downvoting is absolutely an "I disagree" button, the number of downvotes compared with upvotes shows how the community really feels. Without them, you see the 5 people that agree with an objectively unpopular or even stupid argument, but you can't see the 25 people that heavily disagree. Not everyone has the time to make a counter argument to whatever they disagree with on here, so they just click the "I disagree" button and their voice is still heard.

Divewing1 votes

Like I said.

That is how it is used, but not what it is designed for.

Any system designed with the intention in mind that the downvote button is for when you disagree is idiotic.

It would make any form of discussion a popularity contest, and the content of the discussion wouldn't matter at all.

69ScrotalAgony693 votes

Gameplay+ has downvoting disabled. Pretty sure their rational for it was that downvoting was a way for the community to curate and keep un-meaningful discussion off the relevant parts of the boards, but mods curate what goes on gameplay+, so there's no need for community curation. Pretty sure you can read about it on the front page of the boards where they announced gameplay+.

Teridax682 votes

Personally, I'd support removing minion block altogether, but this is a good start. With League's current buggy pathing and collision, minion block can suddenly become a huge obstruction from out of nowhere: while there may be some justification for it happening on enemy minions, there is none for allied minions. It is not possible to last hit or deny one's own minions, or manipulate them in any manner, which means that if a champions is stuck inside their own minions, they're screwed. That shouldn't ever happen.

MarkedOfKane2 votes

The problem I have with the minion block is how horrible the pathing is when trying to get by, where your character wont try and path around them but try and squeeze through them and get blocked off.

QsoloPro2 votes

I agree with this issue and in addition believe that there's another issue that needs addressing, pathing should be fixed in this game, I've seen this over and over again, you click somewhere and your champ gets stuck, or takes an unusually long time to get there going by the least efficient path, and more over there are random places where your champ just kind of stagnates on corners almost like he's confused about what he should do so he walks back and forth trying to figure out the best path. The issue is the environment, it needs to be much more fine tuned to where there are no spots where you could possibly get stuck. Now to your point I absolutely agree minions are ridiculous when blocking everyone, yesterday I saw a cannon minion get stuck on 2 other minions and he couldn't move so what he ended up doing is just being turned to the side and constantly twitching without doing any damage and being immobile.

Doge20202 votes

{quoted}

I agree with this issue and in addition believe that there's another issue that needs addressing, pathing should be fixed in this game, I've seen this over and over again, you click somewhere and your champ gets stuck, or takes an unusually long time to get there going by the least efficient path, and more over there are random places where your champ just kind of stagnates on corners almost like he's confused about what he should do so he walks back and forth trying to figure out the best path. The issue is the environment, it needs to be much more fine tuned to where there are no spots where you could possibly get stuck. Now to your point I absolutely agree minions are ridiculous when blocking everyone, yesterday I saw a cannon minion get stuck on 2 other minions and he couldn't move so what he ended up doing is just being turned to the side and constantly twitching without doing any damage and being immobile.

I agree, once as Quinn top I was leashing my jungler with red, I used e on the red buff and when I landed I got stuck on the corner of the north wall (on topside red the wall with the brush facing krugs), I couldn’t move at all for like 5-6 seconds and was really late to lane.

MarkedOfKane2 votes

I actually just got stuck last game lol. I was moving to a location and a minion got infront so my champ just stopped moving entirely.

Velasan2 votes

Just as an FYI you don't actually need to remove all minion block. Riot could easily just shrink down the collision radius on ally champions only so you still couldn't walk through/stand on top of them, but wouldn't get stuck and glitch out as well.

I'm sure as people have pointed out that at some point Riot must have made a conscious decision than they WANTED minion blocking and that it was beneficial in some way or form. They already did some fixes to it last season that toned it down a little, I'm sure they could do more if they wanted to.

Its Luc not Luc2 votes

I think this is a brilliant idea that they should implement into the PBE for a while before entering it into the main game. I especially love the idea of stacking minion aggro damage, I think that is a wonderful idea. I really would love to see this in PBE and see how it affects the meta. Good idea!

Κ Y Λ Π2 votes

Intro Minion blocking shouldn't be a thing in the game. I've played League of Legends for many years, it's my favourite game to play with friends for a variety of reasons yet recently with meta changes and other things I've been struggling, the challenge makes it all the more fun to win but I'm all the more butthurt to lose and can't help blaming champ and meta changes, BUT one thing that has been consistently a "feature" that has bugged me and many others is minion blocking. The instance by which a large group of minions can block or cause a problem with the player's pathing when trying to move through them. Sure, there have been examples of specific ways around this with a large handful of abilities being able to ignore unit collision and other methods mentioned below:

  • Alistar Alistar's Trample - while active
  • Braum Braum's Unbreakable - while active
  • Draven Draven's Rush Blood Rush - for 1.5 seconds
  • Fizz Fizz's Nimble Fighter - persistent
  • Garen Garen's Judgment - while active
  • Hecarim Hecarim's Devastating Charge - while active
  • Janna Janna's Zephyr - when not on cooldown
  • Jayce Jayce's Hextech Capacitor - for 1.25 seconds after casting Transform
  • Kassadin Kassadin's Void Stone - persistent
  • Kennen Kennen's Lightning Rush - while active
  • Khazix Kha'Zix's Void Assault - while active
  • Nocturne Nocturne's Duskbringer - while on trail
  • RekSai Rek'Sai's Burrow - while active
  • Urgot Urgot's Purge- while active
  • Udyr Udyr's Bear Stance - while active
  • Vladimir Vladimir's Sanguine Pool - while active
  • Zed Death Mark - while active

item 3046 previously had a passive to allow you to ignore unit collision yet that was removed a while back. summoner 6 currently allows this yet it's not viable on a majority of champions. Hecarim also had a passive that used to allow him to walk through units, keep this in mind as this wasn't a specific gameplay mechanic that was introduced to help his kit but rather because he is a MASSIVE CENTAUR THAT SHOULD NOT GIVE A HOOT IF LITTLE MINIONS ARE IN HIS PATH.

Yet this isn't justification for it still being a problem in the game. Sure, when minions are moving its fine for them to have a collision because they almost always move around or get moved out of the way.

Example videos - None of these are mine and all the rights and credit goes to the respective creators. Minion Blocking Montage

INTERESTING POINTS

  • It can be realised that a minion wave that will most likely block pathing has built up by you or your enemy team and utilised to an advantage.

  • Its part of the game and can be learnt to play around it.

  • There are already existing ways around it.

  • There is nothing currently viable for every champ or a broad way to get around it other than flash and ghost that is available to all champs.

SOLUTION It would be relatively easy to allow champions to push minions out of the way when they're not moving. Somewhat dissimilar to Hecarim's old passive many if not all champions have the power to easily shove or push a minion out of the way. The Renekton clip for instance; > "Renekton is a terrifying, rage-fueled Ascended being from the scorched deserts of Shurima." - League of legends Renekton Feature Page

He is literally a DEMI-GOD CROCODILE THAT WAS ONCE A NATIONS GREATEST WARRIOR!!!! THAT IS NOW BEING BLOCKED BY SOME LITTLE BLUE TWIT'S THAT HAVE FORMED A SEEMINGLY IMPENETRABLE DEFENSIVE LINE. Not only that but it was a traitorous act smh

All jokes aside the other clips prove my point, and the point isn't that Kruggs are a sticking point, but that on a whole, a dragon shapeshifter or an enormous dive suited 'man' shouldn't be caught in awkward situations by ANY creep or monster. Neither should any champion and although I've only outlined 1 way to solve the problem there are many. Riot has done a great job with changes in the past yet this issue hasn't been addressed properly or at all and I doubt this post will go anywhere but to the bottom of the pile. I actually hope it gets some sort of looking at.

GreatWhiteNorth2 votes

Fuck no. Yasuo doesn't need another buff.

TheCodeisCupCake1 votes

The whole 'pushing minions' is a Dota mechanic. Experienced Dota 2 players will push approaching friendly minions out of the way so they take longer to r each the lane, thus the lane ends up closer to your tower and you have a safer time CS'ing. We could allow this, although this will DRASTICALLY change league, even more so at botlane. I believe its best not to do this.

1v1 Terror3 votes

That exact mechanic was removed from the game a few years back due to abuse cases in the pros

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

The whole 'pushing minions' is a Dota mechanic. Experienced Dota 2 players will push approaching friendly minions out of the way so they take longer to r each the lane, thus the lane ends up closer to your tower and you have a safer time CS'ing. We could allow this, although this will DRASTICALLY change league, even more so at botlane. I believe its best not to do this.

How would you feel about the ability to push minions but at the cost of a heavy movement speed debuff? Or to be more specific the ability to push through minions but it takes like half a second or a full second to get them out of the way. Basic idea being that it prevent minion block / pathing issues but also makes it so that units can't just drift seamlessly in and out of their units to attack / retreat.

Yordle Xayah1 votes

Fizz

Stephenizgod3 votes

I bet most people don't even realize he can ignore unit collision.

Ryze on Roids1 votes

It's a bit biased but that would make Kassadin's passive a lot worse because he can't be minion blocked.

Malak2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azir Is Dead,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=ZEdJNvVe,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2018-08-22T21:30:57.531+0000)

It's a bit biased but that would make Kassadin's passive a lot worse because he can't be minion blocked.

He also prevents enemy minion block

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