Unpopular Opinion: Revert Malzahar

Stephenizgod··82 votes·16,060 views

EDIT: Moving this up here because people are just reading the title and then commenting on how this is a popular opinion instead of reading the bottom of the post. So apparently this is a very popular opinion. When I first started talking about reverting him he was still sort of new (maybe half a year after) and i got a lot of backlash. I figured people assumed he was fine as is.

*Also a lot of people talk about his Ultimate but clearly don't understand how Suppression works. Take Cleanse or buy QSS against anyone with hard CC and you are a good smart player, but take it against Malzahar its because he is a bullshit champ.... like how is his R any different than the other hard CC in the game? because its longer? Ye it also locks him into place and he is a squishy champion. The damage was never insta-burst levels and this was during a time when resistances were actually useful too. Your memories of being insta-bursted by Malzahar tend to leave out the 7+ kills and 4 items he probably had. He was an ambush-assassin meaning if you walked into his area without vision or teammates you were dead. No different than any other assassin except his took place over 2.5 seconds instead of half a second. Never forget Malzahar used to be an ASSASSIN. *

Hopefully we can get a Rioter in on this to clarify if they have any plans for Malzahar.

Just going to say: I understand that this is probably going to get downvotes, but idc

I miss old Malzahar. I miss playing around his old Passive, his new Passive was busted on release but now is just a slight annoyance. There isn't really any playing around it; is it up? Ok be aggressive. Its down? stay near turret and wait while E and Voidlings push mindlessly.

His major weaknesses to high mobile champs was never addressed in his rework, instead he is largely untouched as far as his weakness go, you just overloaded one of his strengths (pushing) but then had to nerf it because it was too strong.

I think one of the goals was to make him a minion master, but other than spawning them he doesn't really do anything else. Yorick feels more like how Malz should have been, which is probably why i switched from Malz to Yorick. At least old Malzahar you had to plan around your Passive to make them appear, that required actual thought to spawn 3 Voidlings.

Malzahar was part of the mage rework, but i think he really needed his own separate VGU. His Suppression is controversial, core to his kit but feels bad to play against. This alone requires a ton of work on how to keep that lock-down identity while fixing the negativity surrounding Suppression.

This doesn't really have anything to do with disliking change btw. I loved Old Yorick, despite how crap he was, but i love New Yorick even more. Same for Xerath.

Sure Malzahar is in a decent spot right now, but honestly he is no fun to play as or against imo. I really enjoyed playing old Malzahar, he was the first champion I played that I felt I was decent at. He was the champion that made me want to play Ranked, and basically sucked me into the game.

83 Comments

FilDaFunk56 votes

Unpopular Opinion: This is a popular opinion.

saltran28 votes

Popular opinion: this is a popular opinion.

Terozu23 votes

Opinion: this is an opinion.

saltran5 votes

Popular opinion: Onion is White Diamond.

Terozu6 votes

Unpopular opinion: Pearl is White Pearl.

saltran3 votes

That kinda makes sense for the gem position on her front face.

Unpopular opinion: opinion does not rhyme with onion

KoreanEzMode26 votes

I preferred old malz

Recon12129 votes

While I can't say I enjoyed being walked at and getting R'd under tower, I do think reverting him and working on numbers with the old kit would be better than whatever the fuck he is right now.

The Bearded Bard18 votes

I agree 100%. Old Malz was more fun to play as and to play against.

Marothennan2 votes

How was he any more fun to play against?

Beacon Academy11 votes

No Shield Clear Weakness Either Build QSS and kill him or don't be stupid and dive him until he uses his ult.

TheKingOfBiches1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Em8vc2EK,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-08-05T11:23:00.546+0000)

Clear Weakness Either Build QSS and kill him or don't be stupid and dive him until he uses his ult.

That's litteraly current malz

Beacon Academy9 votes

Current Malz can be dived and killed afterwards because low burst due to being pure DoT.

Old Malz is the one that kills you for diving because he was actually the anti-assassin iteration with burst damage using DoT properties (In other words, he will punish you for being stupid).

Essentially Old Malzahar can be played aggressively and force snowball champions to play at his pace because he had enough power to fight them in lane so it was a bit more thrilling.

Current Malzahar however, all advice for how to play him all start with the same line:

"You have to play like a bitch during the laning phase"

No aggressiveness, no interaction, just farm and be passive as fuck.

And continue with:

"Then you ult and let your team get kills"

In other words he went from the mage who assassinated assassins to anti-dive support.

chipndip12 votes

The boards: Why are marksmen, the dps, class, bursting us? Riot this is unfair.

Also the boards: Malzahar was better designed as a DoT champion with burst.

Beacon Academy4 votes

One day you'll realize I said burst damage in DoT format.

Old Malzahar won't kill you in a nano second.

You get to watch yourself be stupid for 2-3 seconds.

chipndip11 votes

How does that make it ANY better?

You're still essentially dead in a nano second. You just can't do anything about it regardless.

Beacon Academy1 votes

Just because the damage is burst quantity doesn't mean its 100-0 burst.

Old Malzahar still had to poke you down to 40-45% health to guarantee a kill at level 6

The only time its near 100-0 is when you're a Zed who thinks they want to dive Malzahar under his tower.

Thats what I mean by watching yourself be stupid.

And its easy not to let that happen.

Don't be stupid.

Buy a QSS.

Wait for malzahar to blow his long cd spells that you're worried about.

chipndip11 votes

But if he's a defensive sort of mage, in that he waits for someone to try to kill him, then counters, he'll never use his long cds because he's just waiting for you to try to fight him...

It's like saying "Wait for him to Shoryuken, then jump"...but you Shoryuken people when they jump. That's a massive contradiction, and the main reason why Malz's design is problematic.

Beacon Academy1 votes

Do you know what a team fight is?

Or do you think Malzahar is gonna auto during the entire fight just waiting for you when there are likely another champion who can dive the ADC?

The Bearded Bard1 votes

Didn't have a spellshield, didn't have mass minion creation.

3TWarrior3 votes

his minions could also take a hit instead of dying to sunfire cloak

Tobykachu15 votes

Old Malzahar had a really distinctive play style in being a burst mage to everyone. Tanks and squishies alike would melt in his presence, Sure he wasn't the most played/ popular of champions, but that's just fine. Not every champion needs to have a massive play rate. He was simple, yet had room for you to out play your opponent. His rework killed any identity he had. One of the least enjoyable passives in the game, especially on release that has turned into nothing more than a joke and voidlings that are borderline worthless. His rework should have been one of the first that they reverted

morris18 votes

Talking about distinctive play styles, old AD Malzahar still stands as one of my top favorite kits in League. He played like the most unorthodox mix of a caster and ADC, kiting the enemy while letting the voidlings shred them and occasionally using one of his spells for utility (since they didn't do much damage by themselves).

If you wanted access to all of your damage, you required a lot of foresight -- voidlings used to last 21 seconds, and their stats would increase at 7 and 14 seconds (+50% bonus AD and armor, and +100% attack speed respectively), meaning if you took your time to prep for an upcoming battle you would be rewarded with 2 voidlings, dealing an average of 306% of Malzahar's bonus AD per second, without him even needing to use his auto attacks.

GigglesO6 votes

{quoted}

you required a lot of foresight

Riot is removing pretty much all of this because they don't give a shit about players that want to play a strategy game, they are making it a flashy casual don't think, just act game.

deadlychuck5 votes

Some things I learned about malzahar over the years.

32% CDR. That's the threshold of getting out a 3rd voidling. They also apply BC stacks, and benefited from the yellow boot enchant MS and banner of command's minion damage boost, back in like season 3. As well, voidlings would remain out and attack targets for the full 4sec duration of item 3026 rez. And probably my favorite, is that his voidlings spawned at the edge of his hitbox, between you and your 4th spell cast. Blitzcrank Thresh be damned

yoshi279010 votes

I liked his old W, but it did seem pretty useless... However I'd much prefer his old kit because his passive sucks to play as and against.

iTaLenTZ16 votes

{quoted}

I liked his old W, but it did seem pretty useless... However I'd much prefer his old kit because his passive sucks to play as and against.

The damage from his old w was what made him good in teamfights, synergyzed great with cc from teammates and turned him into a tankmelter. If you think his old w was useless you weren't playing Malzahar the right way. Coming from a diamond 1 main malz from season 5.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

The damage from is old w was what made him good in teamfights, synergyzed great with cc from teammates and turned him into a tankmelter. If you think his old w was useless you weren't playing Malzahar the right way. Coming from a diamond 1 main malz from season 5.

His old W was useless. It was mostly used as a bush checker so you wouldnt have to facecheck. Unless you hit it before your ultimate - which was rather difficult to do without skill queues as your E and Q were far more useful - enemies would just walk out of it and they would take maybe two ticks of damage.

Beacon Academy11 votes

???

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7BscGITt,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2018-04-06T02:57:21.097+0000)

So you're one of the sheep that fell for Riot's "reasons" for reworking him huh...

Malzahar's staple items include Rylai's and Liandry's

Old Malzahar W was an 800 range pool.


Being able to use Null Zone to:

Slow poke both enemy laners and minions without alerting them to your all in

Save allies or yourself from being chased by the pool's slow

Actually fight tanks with its cooldown being a lot shorter than R (Obviously)

Catch enemies with near instant damage ticks after casting with 800 range and Rylai's

Provide an advantage area-wise for your front line engaging enemy front liners

Zone enemies from portions of the lane while laying siege to towers

Make a dance floor for you and that Lee Sin trying to gank you in the middle of your minions. (Because believe it or not, you'd like to be able to move around on your W as Voidlings/minions/Null Zone killed Lee)


If you actually think that Null Zone's purpose in life was just to be stuck with Ult, you're sadly mistaken or unimaginative.

If anything, Nether Grasp was a tool to make Null Zone (As well as Q and Voidlings) more useful.


Not only does Null Zone do less damage than its old free-to-cast-anywhere self...

Its up less often overall.

Also, Instead of using Null Zone + Rylai's to damage them initially and then using Ult as they reach the edge (Extending the amount of damage they're exposed to Null Zone), The Ult will only keep them there for the initial 2.5s and then they walk out.

Stephenizgod4 votes

Oh his old W was amazing, it may have been one of the more lackluster abilities and definitely needed some work, it was not useless.

2Charmnot2Charm9 votes

I don't even play Malz and I want the old one back.

Akali is SO HOT6 votes

You can't put unpopular opinion in the title when it's not actually an unpopular opinion

Stephenizgod4 votes

When I was first talking about reverting or at least re-reworking him people were disagreeing with me. Everyone wanted this current version of him to be nerfed and then to leave him. So i figured this still remained the general idea.

It Hertz When IP6 votes

His R kinda sucks to deal with, but I don't think it's inherently bad. Yeah, you're locked in place and damaged a ton, but Malz is locked in place too, and in this day and age of insta-bursts on most of the roster, standing stock still for that long can be a death sentence. Malz is great at one-on-ones, but theoretically SHOULD get cucked in teamfights if he just ults without the tank covering him.

deadlychuck3 votes

Yeah, malzahar actually falls off extremely fast relative to the number of people in the fight.

2v2 he's probably no stronger than average. Even just 3v3 he's probably more of a liability.

hhaavviikk5 votes

malzahar his is boring and bad design, promtoes him even more to afk farm, and his W is also bad design, you either fight an enemy who lacks AOE and your voidligns go to town or you do fight an enemy with AOE and your W might as well not exist as it won't do anything.

Zyra has a smiliar problem but worse, her plants is where her damage comes from yet they die in 1 hit

Paroe8 votes

{quoted}

malzahar his is boring and bad design, promtoes him even more to afk farm, and his W is also bad design, you either fight an enemy who lacks AOE and your voidligns go to town or you do fight an enemy with AOE and your W might as well not exist as it won't do anything.

Zyra has a smiliar problem but worse, her plants is where her damage comes from yet they die in 1 hit

You clearly never played the original iteration of malzahar or learned much about him. Pre-rework, malzahar was a potent niche champion who occupied the unique role of anti-assassin.

Basically, malzahar had a very hard time killing people on his own in upper ELO; His E pushed very well, His voidlings were situational and pushed well, his W was a bush checker, his Q is odd to hit with. Those things made it so malzahar wasnt picked as a general usage mage but as an ambush-assassin. His gameplay, and playstyle, revolved around shoving lane and waiting for enemies to all-in him so he could counter-attack with with an assassin style burst combo of QER. Among malzahars list of skills were... A) Lane management B) Minion management C) Positioning manipulation D) Ambush positioning E) River management F) Roaming G) Rotation timing (you couldnt just press EQR - it didnt queue like it does now. You had to E, Q, R.) H) Jungle management (You had to manage your enemy jungler so you knew when to shove and when to back out.)

Further, Riots stated problem with malzahar was "his lack of interaction in lane" when... He had no tools to interact, and even now, still doesnt. He was changed for riots change for the sake of change policy, not because he needed to be. ANYTIME you have a product with few changes over the years who gets changed, then needs more major changes to fix the changes which in turn leave the product in a worse state than it was originally you have a SEVERE problem that can only be solved by going back to what worked.

Marothennan1 votes

{quoted}

Pre-rework, malzahar was a potent niche champion who occupied the unique role of anti-assassin.

He still does that though?

Beacon Academy2 votes

Anti-Assassin = Countering Assassins by killing them when they dive you.

Dive-Proof = Mitigating damage from a dive, but thats all.

A kevlar vest will help mitigate damage from a bullet, but won't kill the guy who shot you.

Current Malzahar is simply dive-proof and even then its one time use per skirmish/fight.

lightdragoon884 votes

I will always repeat this:

The old Malzahar was not about summoning or even attacking the enemies, but rather corrupting the area around him to the point that people can't survive. His Q/W open areas to the Void that poison people near it while his E corrupted the mind that could spread/infect others, thus spreading the corruption.

But nope..when they ask what they wanted from Malz during the mage update, people high off using AD malz on URF wanted 'moar voilding' so he became a summoner of pets. If they are strong he op, if they are weak, he weak. They can't balance it.

I miss my Main Mage Malz.

deadlychuck3 votes

Probably the worst part about his rework, and something that was obvious from just reading the kit's design, was that they completely removed the malzahar player's agency. They forced players into a particular pattern of spell usage, they shifted a significant amount of his damage to voidlings (after removing player targeting controls), and they made it so that his early game wave clear was dependent on the enemy's ability to play around you rather than your ability to properly set up the minion wave. Screw it, i'm gonna post my "malz rework" thread again.

Rıots Bad Client2 votes

The only thing I really miss is his Old E's Damage. Good ol' Classic Space aids.

Now its just used as a W Aimer.

Kelg2 votes

His kit is toxic and he needs a vgu tbh.

Bisaknosp1 votes

welp the only way to make him feel satisfying to play and to play against is to change his ult so they can put power in his basic abilities

at least thats what i think

because how it is atm it doesnt matter that much if a malz loses lane or feeds a lil bit since he can make s1 more useless than he is xd

Beacon Academy2 votes

The power was already in his basic abilities.

If you ever played Old Malzahar and you threw your W on a tank, you'll notice they take chunks of damage just walking out of it and that was only one ability.

His Ult was just icing on the cake that helped maximize what his basic abilities did.

i.e. Pool and Voidlings wouldn't do much damage if the target wasn't held in place.

Leto GT1 votes

I grew to like him as he is now. I still find he's fun to play. I don't really see how he's an afk farm. When your lane is a pushed, you roam and malza is pretty great in 2vs2+.

I don't really understand what you expect from a revert, he has not changed that much. His early power is meh but he that's fine to me considering how well he scales. His voidlings are kinda dumb though.

I really like when I get item 3285+ item 3116 + item 3136. When you feel it starts going. I'm just having fun denying those bruisers overally. Beside you can use an emote during the R, it makes it less painful. Lol.

Beacon Academy3 votes

Old Malzahar = Slowly poking and calculating when to go in on the enemy laner for a 1v1.

New Malzahar = Push and farm while deciding if its a good time to fight a 3v2 or 2v1.

There is a difference in mentality right from level 1.

The butterfly effect my friend...

Leto GT2 votes

I'm personally not pushing and farming unless I want to roam. You can play around his passive to be aggro and you can still play around his E and Q to zone them from minions and outplay.

I'm not really sure what you're doing with malza currently. The pool is for sure a loss in terms of lane pressure but it consumed a lot de of mana iirc.

You should watch some high elo replays and see that they're not afk farm at all because they want to win the lane.

Besides, blindly pushing in the early is such a bad idea, they may just freeze and fuck you up. By mid game, you push and roam which is what any other midlaner do.

On top of that, old malzahar was literally push, afk in a bush, combo R ignite delete the opponent. In Lane you would flash in combo delete the opponent. It's far from calculating anything. If ever there was a calculation it's the same now. Poke with E Q twice then all in.

I prefered old malza because I liked the pool and the nuke but your nostalgia seems a bit exaggerated. My bet is that most ppl here didn't take enough time to explore his new kit which I think is still fun.

Beacon Academy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=wG Got2Cool,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Em8vc2EK,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2018-08-05T20:48:48.589+0000)

your nostalgia seems a bit exaggerated

"I do have issues with Malzahar, but it isn't power like what most people complain about.

You can't argue about damage without acknowledging that current Malzahar can do damage if given the time to do it. Emphasis on "if"


What I do have an issue with is that Malzahar is no longer as free as he used to be.

Back before the pre-rework, you could go AP or AD because your kit allowed you to focus on either your spell damage or your voidling damage.

He used to be able to cast his spells wherever the fuck he wants unlike now where pool is fixated on R simply because Riot and community believed that Null Zone's sole purpose in life was to be used in conjunction with Nether Grasp.

He used to be able to play the lane how he wanted to. Yes he could play passive, but he could also play aggressively if the player wanted to. Now every time someone asks "How do I do well on Malzahar?," every single piece of advice always starts with "Well... You gotta play like a bitch..."

Also not a fan of mandatory resetting of E to deal damage because it -forces- you to focus on one target whereas before you could throw your spells in all directions and still deal a decent amount of damage (i.e. Null Zone the enemy front line, Q & R on the Zed diving your ADC)

Not to mention resetting mechanic encourages spamming abilities rather than careful usage of your abilities due to longer cooldowns...

Essentiallly, I miss Malzahar when you could -choose- what variation of items you wanted to build or play however the fuck you wanted because you could."

From my reddit post because I gotta get to work :/

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