Let's explore an idea for tweaking Vayne

HalcyonDweller··27 votes·1,831 views

What if her kit were gated even more by her auto-attacks? What if when she cast her E, it would show her cocking her crossbow like a gun, to indicate she's winding it up for a powerful attack, then on her next auto-attack she would have the same effect of the existing ability (knocking back the opponent)?

My reason for suggesting this is because I think that her E being point and click doesn't give opponents room for counterplay against it, by making it so she has to attack them to make the effect happen, it is limited by attack speed so that opponents can predict it a little more. This would also be more prevalent early-game when she has less attack speed, emphasizing the fact that she is supposed to be weaker early and stronger later.

Now, a few questions:

  1. Do you think a change is needed? Why or why not?

  2. Do you think this specific change is a good idea? Why or why not?

  3. What other thoughts does this idea bring to your mind?

Discuss below.

87 Comments

MalignMetal11 votes

Her ultimate steroid need to be changed.

I'm fine with maybe her ultimate as a passive giving her some AD alllll the time. But when she. Triggers her ultimate that bonus AD vanishes just like the counterplay her ultimate represents

HalcyonDweller3 votes

Which parts of her ultimate would be kept the same?

Also what do you mean by bonus ad vanishing?

MalignMetal2 votes

She gets bonus AD from her ultimate right. My idea is she hits lvl 6 gains some Passive AD from her ultimate when she Ults to gain stealth and MS etc she loses that Passive AD

kargish8 votes

Huh? How does that make sense? If I pull a massive cockbow crossbow, with bolts 10 times as big as normal, shouldn't it hit harder than a simlpe arm attached crossbow?

Infernape10 votes

Don't try and apply logic to League. I mean an all powerful celestial star dragon can get killed by a rat with a blowgun.

kargish6 votes

Maybe not, but this is too illogical to be reasonable. It's like saying 2 < 1.

paisy2 votes

Doesn't Olaf lose stats when he ults? It'd be the same thing

kargish1 votes

Considering he loses defensive stats for going berserk, not really.

paisy1 votes

Just applying your logic to another champ in the game, why would he be easier to kill if he's "unstoppable"? Obviously it's for balance reasons but it wouldn't really make sense otherwise

kargish1 votes

And I don't mind balancing issues, but the example with Vayne is to literally break physics, and it's on such a plain level that it would be way too weird to do it differently. It's pretty obvious to anyone, if something is bigger it hits harder. Like 2 is bigger than 1. If we swap those realities, then we're left with something that's too illogical to deal with.

It's nothing about how 'a space dragon shouldn't die to a rat with a crossbow' or anything like that, or how Olaf's ultimate works because of balance issues. It's simply too plain and simple to make a change on physics.

Rester10 votes

Honestly I'd like if her E had a 1s wind-up/cast time and rooted her in place for the duration of the cast. That way she can't simply press E while moving away with almost no interaction. It would also punish trying to go for the third hit on her passive by making it a risk/reward thing.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

This is a great idea, I like your thinking on this.

Should we be concerned about that change making it a lot harder for her to land wall stuns mid-combat though?

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

I'd be concerned about the 1 second root making it a potential death sentence if not used while stealthed. 1 second is a long time given that she has some of the lowest durability and range among ADC's.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

That's a fair point, maybe it should just prevent her from auto-attacking while she loads the knock-back shot.

Do you think that would work okay? Or could it have other problems?

Brisingr7955 votes

{quoted}

That's a fair point, maybe it should just prevent her from auto-attacking while she loads the knock-back shot.

Do you think that would work okay? Or could it have other problems?

Vayne doesn't need a change. She's completely fine with her current kit. Y'all just need to stop farming minions in the laning phase and abuse her low range. This is why she isn't picked in pro scene. There is clear counterplay, but y'all are just letting her farm for free. You and your support should be zoning her instead of acting like she'll one shot you before any items. Her E's counterplay is not to stand near terrain. It's really quite simple, just keep aligning yourself with her next E/auto into free space and you won't get stunned, so never face opposite from her. And for ffs harass her for every single cs. The problem with this preseason is with everyone doing a little too much damage, not just Vayne. Her AD amp was of course necessary, but with AD items being so cheap, like Crit and Lethality, the only things needing changes are AP items and tanks, considering how laning phase is and late game being shortened so much. So it's kinda pointless to talk about reworking Vayne because I 100% guarantee that Riot won't really care or listen to your ideas because her kit relies on early game hell and late-mobility domination. So technically her kit is balanced and fine already. Nuff said.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

On itemization:

You're suggesting we leave Crit items as strong as they are and buffing other classes items up to make them able to compete with that?

There be power creep. I can't agree with your suggestion.

On Vayne:

Maybe so. But I'm not going to get into an argument about higher skill vs lower skill players. I saw people raising concerns about something, so I decided to explore an idea regarding it. I'm not demanding that my idea be implemented, I'm simply exploring the ideas. And it is wrong of you to persecute me for doing so.

SEKAI7 votes

Just tweak her W into a variant of the Giant Slayer passive from items, or something like that?

I mean, if being a tank killing specialist is supposed to be her niche, but then why is her W killing tanks and squishies equally?

........

Also, change of nerf her E. It is toxic, and will forever be toxic if not treated. The range is way too big and you don't need 2 brain cells to knock everybody into walls everywhere given League's smaller map and lane size compared to say Dota.

........

Also, one of the biggest reason why Vayne is such a pain in the ass is her passive, Night Hunter. The MS boosts completely nullify her supposed weakness of having a shorter range because she makes up for it by having significantly higher MS, ESPECIALLY during her ultimate. The passive is also what makes her so unstoppable when she's ahead, because you can not run away from her at all unless you use drastic measures and important resources like Flash (and even then, it's not guarantees because she has hers too).

Nanuk Pihoqahiak2 votes

Her W doesn't really kill squishies equally. If she is free to damage a squishe, she won't need more than 3-5 autos to kill them, which is only one proc of Silver Bolts. The rest is crit Tumbles. Are you really advocating that 12 percent health true damage is making her equally oppressive against squishes as she is tanks? Because the Vaynes I've played with and against will just Tumblecrit a squishy for 40-80 percent of their health and then pick them off in the next 1-2 attacks.

CNV Nightstar5 votes

knock back on vayne isnt the best option for most situations and you usally have to be pretty stupid to get hit by her stun. Play around her ULT and know when to go in and how to position against her. The only time you should be dying to a vayne as a carry is when she has flash and alot of peel. Vayne just needs to not have a giant shield and fleet footwork which makes her q's and auto's a chance for chase downs. Vayne is fine as she is its just the runes and items. If you nerf vayne then you should do it to her ULT by reverting the buff or to her q/w to make less dmg. everything else is fine. i have quite a bit of experience with vayne.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Thanks for your contributions! Please keep in mind that I'm not demanding that my idea be implemented, I'm just exploring the idea.

CNV Nightstar1 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for your contributions! Please keep in mind that I'm not demanding that my idea be implemented, I'm just exploring the idea.

i respected that youre just giving suggestions so i gave my input on why that would or wouldnt work. Also why vayne is strong.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I appreciate how candid you were with your input! You knew what you needed to say to communicate it and you were no more or less rude than you needed to be to get it across. Other people have been downright shitty about this, but you were awesome about it and I'm quite grateful for that :)

CNV Nightstar1 votes

{quoted}

I appreciate how candid you were with your input! You knew what you needed to say to communicate it and you were no more or less rude than you needed to be to get it across. Other people have been downright shitty about this, but you were awesome about it and I'm quite grateful for that :)

Ive been losing every game no matter what ive tried so i have decided to go back to the basics and learn them all and also being a little bit more respectful.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

That bites dude, I'm sorry you've had to go through that. That's a good outlook, focusing on self improvement and on being a good teammate is probably the best thing you can do to start winning again!

One other thing I recommend if you haven't done it yet is to one-trick a champion. By doing that you give yourself the most headspace to focus on the game mechanics and teamwork stuff and that way you don't have to think as much about your champion's mechanics.

CNV Nightstar1 votes

{quoted}

That bites dude, I'm sorry you've had to go through that. That's a good outlook, focusing on self improvement and on being a good teammate is probably the best thing you can do to start winning again!

One other thing I recommend if you haven't done it yet is to one-trick a champion. By doing that you give yourself the most headspace to focus on the game mechanics and teamwork stuff and that way you don't have to think as much about your champion's mechanics.

na.op.gg/summoner/userName=NightstarReaper if you want to take a little peak at my life recently. Will start focusing on the 5 core bases of league such as poking, cs'ing (dont need much practice here), rotating, lane management, warding, map awareness and itemization. I just got into diamond 5 and i already want out. worst plaiyng experience ive had in league.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Oof I hear that Diamond 5 is full of people who can't be demoted when they deserve to be so you get stuck playing with lots of tilted and toxic people.

I dunno if it would help you, but I wrote a lot about how to control team morale and how to get people to work together. Feel free to read it if you like. You can ignore the part about avoiding bans if you haven't had problems with chat restrictions or other punishable behavior in the past.

{quoted}

Ok for advice I've got a few things. A lot of it is written out in the post linked below, but I'll elaborate a bunch and add a few points in my comment here as well.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/bv2m7fx4-feeders-and-toxic-teammates-got-you-down-this-may-help

Warning: Wall of text incoming. It's a lot to read, but trust me it's all useful techniques that I've used to great effect in my own games. It's worth your time if you are willing to read through it all.


1. On avoiding getting banned:

You don't want to get banned obviously, so first and foremost you should avoid being negative, passive aggressive, or insulting in any way from this point on. A good rule of thumb is this: If you wouldn't say it loudly to somebody in a public place in front of someone who's respect you hold dear, it's probably not something you should say to a stranger over the internet. Avoid being sarcastic, or saying anything to blame teammates.

Generally speaking, anything that you say that might anger your teammate is something that could make them report you. Whether or not their report for that statement is justified, if it triggers the IFS to review your behavior and the IFS finds something else that you said in that game that it thinks is punishable, it's going to punish you for the second thing even if the person reported you for something else.

Keep in mind that after a 14-day ban you're going to be on super thin ice. Even minor negativity may be enough to trigger another punishment, and unfortunately (and in this case, unfairly in my opinion) for you, the next punishment in the progression is a permanent ban. If you are not absolutely certain that you can talk to irritating teammates without saying something punishable, then it is better to not talk to those types of teammates at all. Mute them and don't even acknowledge what they say. You can safely report them yourself after the game and leave it in Riot's hands to deal with them.

After several months of consistently honorable (or otherwise positive) behavior, your account standing should improve and that 'thin-ice' and danger of being permabanned will loom over you much less.


2. On using past, present, and future tense to better steer discussions in a positive direction:

It especially helps to steer conversations into the future tense. reasons being this:

  • The past tense is often used for assigning blame
  • the present tense is often used for discussing values
  • and the future tense is often used for making choices or decisions in the future.

This is a subtle twist of language that a lot of people don't realize affects their discussions with others, and they react to it on a subconscious level.

For example, picture this happening in one of your games. Person A just died to a gank because they pushed up too far and didn't ward. Here we will look at the outcomes of using different verb tenses to discuss their death.

Case 1 - Past tense:

Person B: Dude you shouldn't have been so far up <- notice the past tense, this will often make Person A feel like they are being attacked, and they are more likely to react by defending themselves instead of focusing on playing smarter the next time. person A: I wasn't trying to die, they just caught me! It wasn't my fault!!!

Here Person A argued instead of recognizing or learning what they need to do better next time (ward and watch out for ganks).

Case 2 - Present tense:

Person B: Aww man that sucks, I'm sorry you're dead right now. it's not fair how they can pull bullshit like that. person A: Thanks! Yeah, it's so unfair!

Here both players commiserate over the unfortunate event. Nothing is learned from it, but Person A is at least feeling supported by person B. As long as you use the present tense like this (to express support for a teammate after something bad happens), it will serve a good purpose because it will put Person A's mind at ease and they won't be worried about getting flamed by Person B every time they make a mistake.

Case 3 - Future tense:

Person B: Oof that's unfortunate. Lets try to ward next time before you push like that again, maybe it will help keep you safe. person A: Thanks! I'll try that.

Here person B makes the discussion focus more on what to do about the problem in the future, and they do it in a helpful way. This helps Player A to see why their push ended badly for them and gives them a clear goal - a safer strategy to try the next time that they want to push.

Also, keep in mind that verb tense is more than just talking about when to do something. Telling somebody to "stop feeding/flaming" or to "feed/flame less next time" isn't really using the future tense, because it is still making the player's mistake from the past into the main focus of the discussion.


3. On maintaining team morale and preventing tilt and arguments.

A lot of the time, people begin to argue or tilt because of plays going badly. They can't accept responsibility (or fault / blame) for their mistakes, or they are upset because somebody else's mistake made the game harder to win.

A series of bad plays is sometimes all it takes to drive a team into the worst sorts of in-fighting and arguments. This is why it is super important to maintain team morale and to keep people focused on strategy and future plays.

When a play goes badly, you can head-off (or prevent) multiple problems. First you can prevent the player from tilting and getting anxious or afraid of their mistakes getting them blamed or harassed by the team. And second, you can help the whole team to not tilt by turning the focus away from the mistake and towards what can be done to prevent or make-up-for the mistake in the future.

To do this you need to use a combination of the present and future tense, in order to make the player (or team) feel supported while also giving them a clear goal of something to do better the next time around. For example, the future tense case from section 2. Notice how Player B commiserates with player A to make them feel like Player B is on their side ("oof that 's unfortunate," and then gives them an idea for what to do next time ("Maybe if we ward next time it will keep you safe.")

Maintaining team morale isn't just about preventing tilt though! You don't even have to try to make players feel better after a bad play if they are already feeling great in the first place! This is why it is important to compliment teammates whenever a play goes well.

If the jungler ganks top and they kill the enemy or force the enemy to waste resources... Say something like "good teamwork top & jungle" or "great gank" because these sorts of things will make them feel good about what they did well, and make them feel motivated to try to do such teamwork successfully again in the future.

If bottom lane gets a tower or mid lane roams and makes a successful play, compliment them for it! People love praise and it will make them feel like you have their back.

This has another benefit of making them trust you more, that way if things go wrong later and you need to give feedback or suggest they do something different, they will already think you are nice and will be less likely to take it personally or get upset when you tell them to do something differently.


Conclusion:

Phew! That was a lot, I hope it wasn't too much of a wall of text. That's most of what I have to say for now.

I've used each of these techniques to great effect in my own games, and I highly recommend you try them in your own. If you have any questions about them or you want to discuss other techniques, just let me know I'll be happy to talk more about this.

Elohaven5 votes

She does not need a rework or a kit edit. She's only strong since every other ADC has been nerfed or weakened due to stat changes from the rune updates. It explains why she went from a balanced ADC in season 6 and 7 to the must-pick she is this preseason.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

So Vayne is fine as is and other ADC's should be brought back up to the power levels they had in recent seasons? I'm not sure I can agree with that idea.

Elohaven1 votes

Nobody said anything about bringing them back up. Lucian, Draven, and Caitlyn definitely need buffs though. Lucian deals no damage even when ahead and the other two are just so bad in general with the new runes.

Vayne's issues are number-related, not kit-related.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Nobody said anything about bringing them back up. Lucian, Draven, and Caitlyn definitely need buffs though. Lucian deals no damage even when ahead and the other two are just so bad in general with the new runes.

Vayne's issues are number-related, not kit-related.

I'm simply exploring an idea. Please stop pooh-pooh-ing it.

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

Wait. You're saying change her currently point and click E into an AA enhancer, while autos are point and click already? That...makes absolutely no sense. Especially considering that nearly every AA enhancer also in an AA reset.

It'd make no sense at all. You're exchanging one thing for something else that's basically identical.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Technically, AA enhancers don't have to reset. Riot did a consistency pass a while back so that most of them did.

DJ 019753 votes

I actually really like that idea. Kinda like how Jhin twirls his gun for his fourth shot, Ashe takes a lowered stance during her Q, Nasus gets a little wispy thing around his cane for his Q, Xin's Q combo has a specific animation (In case you can't count to three). Hell even Ziggs has a little animation for his passive. Wouldn't be a bad idea, to be honest. I'm sick of being """outplayed""" by a 1-7 Vayne because she can auto q auto e auto q auto my hp bar to 20% with just a shiv and her silver bolts.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Thanks for your support and feedback! Sorry you got dragged down in the downvotes with me XD

DJ 019752 votes

Nah it's all good man. Every downvote I have is from a salty hardstuck bronze 2 Vayne main so I don't really pay any attention to it. :P

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Demeaning them isn't the best way to go about this, but I'm glad you don't feel bothered about the votes :)

JoeMG2 votes

I discussed last season that they should just make her E a skillshot since she is currently the only adc without one.

They could increase the mana cost on her Q also just to keep her from spamming it.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

These are good ideas too, thanks for contributing!

Eranell2 votes

So, this is what I have in mind though it would actually be more of a minor rework of probably the Rengar rework scale.

First of all, for the changes I though of she would have to wield two small crossbows, one on each wrist but she still also keeps her big one.

She can keep her passive.

Her W should need 4 hits to proc (dont imidiately shit on this change guys, it has something to do with what I want her Q to become).

Her Q should increase her next auto attack damage (as it does now) but also hit twice similar to Lucian's passive. Also each shot should calculate its crit chance on its own so she doesn't just get that one massive crit that melts the enemy ADC down to 20% HP with one lucky shot in mid game.

I would rename her E "Twin Bolt" and make it a two part skill shot. The first shot must hit an enemy for the second to become useable. The second shot has slightly increased range and can either be shot into terrain or an enemy. If the second shot hits the same target as the first one the enemy is slowed for a brief moment. If the second shot hits terrain or an enemy both are tethered to each other as well as slowed and cant seperate further from each other than the distance both targets had when they got tethered for (I dont know) 1.5 seconds.

Lastly her ult should empower each of her other skills. Her Q and her Passive are already empowered by it (higher MS and invivibility) as of now but remove the double hit I gave it while ulting. I would grant her W one third of its proc power for every hit instead of it needing to hit 4 times. Lastly while ulting her E changes from "Twin Bolt" into "Condemn" which is her current E.

Well, but these are just my thoughts.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I'm a fan of your suggestions, I like how much thought you put into them and I like how they address and solve a number of things that people seem to be frustrated with about Vayne. +1

Thank you for contributing to the discussion :)

NoNameVayne1 votes

While in theory this seems like a good idea

  1. This isn’t Vayne’s problem it’s mostly adc item costs and how that allows her to reach her late game earlier
  2. If we are going to Nerf vayne which I disagree with I think it should be to the Q to reduce assassinations and damage.
  3. I think the real problem is also that lane bullies such as Caitlyn and Lucian are so bad that no one plays them. Riot should buff certain adcs and vaynes winrate will go down a lot. What will happen when they nerf vayne this time later on they will probabaly buff the lane bullies which will make her unplayable
HalcyonDweller1 votes

I understand and respect your concerns. I'll reply to each of them individually.

{quoted}

While in theory this seems like a good idea

  1. This isn’t Vayne’s problem it’s mostly adc item costs and how that allows her to reach her late game earlier

I definitely agree with the sentiment that item costs have thrown things out of whack. I would be okay with changing item costs instead, but this post is more about just exploring an idea. It's not just for nerfing or buffing vayne, I genuinely think that making her E proc on an Auto-attack might make her kit more interesting.

  1. If we are going to Nerf vayne which I disagree with I think it should be to the Q to reduce assassinations and damage.

That's also fair, and I would understand and respect that change.

  1. I think the real problem is also that lane bullies such as Caitlyn and Lucian are so bad that no one plays them. Riot should buff certain adcs and vaynes winrate will go down a lot. What will happen when they nerf vayne this time later on they will probabaly buff the lane bullies which will make her unplayable

I would prefer if lane bullies were not buffed unnecessarily. I'm always one more for nerfing overliers rather than buffing underliers.

NoNameVayne2 votes

Yeah I do agree we probably shouldn’t buff lane bullies unnecessarily, but at the same time if they nerf almost every adc to balance adcs power levels right now then it could end up with all adcs being to weak. Maybe if they only do slight nerfs to items and strong adcs and see how it plays out.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I'm in favor of that plan, it seems like a rational balance between the various options. +1

KennysDreamGirl1 votes

lets just delete her because fuck her

HalcyonDweller1 votes

You are free to hold that opinion, but how would you feel if Riot acted on somebody else's similar opinion about Zoe?

It's not really constructive or helpful to just demand that something be removed that we don't like. That's why I prefer to make threads like this where we can discuss potential changes in the context of just seeing what effect it would have.

KennysDreamGirl1 votes

{quoted}

You are free to hold that opinion, but how would you feel if Riot acted on somebody else's similar opinion about Zoe?

It's not really constructive or helpful to just demand that something be removed that we don't like. That's why I prefer to make threads like this where we can discuss potential changes in the context of just seeing what effect it would have.

i didnt really mean it xd

HalcyonDweller1 votes

No worries! I'm just trying to promote discussion.

KennysDreamGirl2 votes

{quoted}

No worries! I'm just trying to promote discussion.

yeah I'm all for discussion. trying to change from being that guy that would just say "fuck x champ delete them"

HalcyonDweller1 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

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