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Riot should insta-ban any account that says this in chat:

HalcyonDweller··130 votes·6,266 views

EDIT 2:

Due to some very well reasoned responses (Thanks to "not brna xDD" and "PaladinNO") I've come to realize that my initial stance was far too harsh. I have changed my stance to the following:

Players exhibiting the behavior described below should be subject to immediate chat restriction (possibly across all of their existing accounts) and some sort of notification or reform card. This is not too harsh, and it also would clear any doubt they had as to the system's ability to track and punish them.

Original Post:

"I don't care if you report me, I have # other accounts."

Seriously, this is the most tilting thing to hear from a teammate ever. They take the system and spit it in your face with such contempt. On top of that it usually accompanies a whole host of other toxic behavior which they were already told to stop.

They're clearly being extremely shitty humans; they clearly don't intend to reform, and they clearly don't care about the impact they are having on their fellow teammates. This deserves a zero tolerance policy. Any player who says this should instantly lose their account, and maybe even get put on a watch list for identifying alt accounts to watch more closely for toxic behavior.

EDIT:

It's clear from people's responses that I didn't clarify well, and I came off sounding very extreme. So here's a better explanation of what I mean here:

I specifically am talking aout players who are already being unsportsmanlike, toxic, and hurtful to others. When they respond with,

"haha I don't care Riot's punishment system doesn't apply to me and you can't do anything to stop me!"

That is the sort of situation I am talking about.

The player is already being toxic, already exhibiting behavior deemed unacceptable by Riot and the community. It's taking it one step further and holding the system in contempt that I believe is the final kicker. That is what I believe to be a fair reason to permaban.

It's not just the act of saying that that I believe should be the reason to permaban. It is the act of saying that in addition to already being toxic.

138 Comments

NinjaGuy697 votes

I personally don't think Riot should allow players to have more than 2 accounts per IP address (1 main account, and one smurf to play with less skilled friends if necessary), but they don't really have a way to control smurfing at the moment. Unfortunately, it's a problem that they don't really appear to be keen on solving (mostly because they don't seem to consider smurfing an issue).

Even if someone were to say that to you, there really isn't any way for them to substantiate the claim that they have several other accounts. Just report them and hope for the best.

HalcyonDweller36 votes

The problem with IP blocking is that it can affect computers with multiple users. For example family, or at internet cafes.

Also there are rather simple ways around it, which I won't explain because I don't want to teach people how to avoid the systems.

NinjaGuy694 votes

The problem with IP blocking is that it can affect computers with multiple users. For example family, or at internet cafes.

Yeah, it sucks. They really should implement MAC address blocking for users who are permabanned (even though there are ways around that too).

HalcyonDweller10 votes

I believe that Riot already has a system in place, but they just don't use it enough.

They can already track players across accounts by monitoring a number of factors.

Even back when the old forums were still used, Riot did this. There was a pretty satisfying post to read where an extremely toxic player complained about their punishment, so a Rioter responded saying, "I took a look at your case manually, and due to the severity of your behavior I've gone ahead and permanently banned the rest of your accounts."

NinjaGuy6911 votes

They can already track players across accounts by monitoring a number of factors.

I mean they're only a multi-billion dollar organization. It's not like they have the resources to go after players who get permabanned and make sure they stay permabanned.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/038/YES.gif

Scary Door10 votes

And how would you suggest they do that? Simply having a lot of money doesn't mean you can do the impossible.

For instance:

Ban an IP - laughable. Dynamic IPs exist, so that's not effective.

Ban by Hardware ID - laughable. Those are easily spoofed/changed

You develop a means for banning, I come up with a way around it, it's that simple. Sure, they can ban the accounts of an individual but they can just go out and create or buy more. Not at all difficult. Riot would be wasting valuable resources essentially throwing deck chairs off the Titanic.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

Riot has methods, they've done it before.

Not going to tell you since you're clearly familiar enough with computers to try to create a workaround.

Although the thought of you wasting time on that is pretty funny to think about.

Scary Door9 votes

Riot has methods, they've done it before.

Name an instance where they have banned someone and kept them out of the game permanently. Remember Tyler1? They made his "indefinite" suspension very public but he still plays League. It is impossible to keep someone permanently banned from playing this game, no matter what you try to do.

Not going to tell you since you're clearly familiar enough with computers to try to create a workaround.

Translation: "Not going to admit that it's impossible to do because you're smart enough to know that it can't be done"

Although the thought of you wasting time on that is pretty funny to think about.

Oh yes, a great deal of thought went into my scenario. It took me all of 30 seconds to write that post... it's the 21st century, it's pretty easy to evade, thwart or otherwise bypass a "permanent" ban.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Scary Door,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=0E9kk3Em,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-12T18:06:45.515+0000)

Name an instance where they have banned someone and kept them out of the game permanently. Remember Tyler1? They made his "indefinite" suspension very public but he still plays League. It is impossible to keep someone permanently banned from playing this game, no matter what you try to do.

Did I say we should ban all their accounts and keep them out of the game permanently? I don't think I did. Maybe you should check the conversation more carefully before you accidentally put words in my mouth. All I said was that Riot has methods to identify a player and each of their accounts that they are using.

Translation: "Not going to admit that it's impossible to do because you're smart enough to know that it can't be done"

Gosh, more words in my mouth that I never said. Nice attitude! Your arrogance is showing... You might want to cover that up. (☞ﾟ∀ﾟ)☞

Permabanning an account just takes away all that time and effort spent to level it up. Seems good enough to me. Players who make a new account and act toxic are just wasting their time because they get it taken away again. Might as well reform or just never come back. All that wasted time is just sad.

Scary Door7 votes

Did I say we should ban all their accounts and keep them out of the game permanently? I don't think I did. Maybe you should check the conversation more carefully

I'll go ahead and check the conversation more carefully there, chief. Here's what I ORIGINALLY responded to...

I mean they're only a multi-billion dollar organization. It's not like they have the resources to go after players who get permabanned and make sure they stay permabanned.

You didn't say it, but I responded to someone that did, then YOU took it upon yourself to join in the conversation when I pointed out that there is no way to ban someone permanently and make them "stay permabanned".

As you wrote in the comment to which I responded to, "Riot has methods, they've done it before."

To which I said, "no they haven't".

If you're going to respond to a comment I make directed at someone else, then you might want to know what the context of that conversation is first, otherwise it might make you look a little foolish.

Gosh, more words in my mouth that I never said. Nice attitude! Your arrogance is showing... You might want to cover that up.

Nah, it's called knowing what you're talking about, you should try it sometime.

Permabanning an account just takes away all that time and effort spent to level it up. Seems good enough to me. Players who make a new account and act toxic are just wasting their time because they get it taken away again. Might as well reform or just never come back. All that wasted time is just sad.

There's about 20 websites out there where you can buy an account (level 30) for $10, additional sites have accounts for slightly more but some of those already have champions or a shitload of IP on them. As you see it's pretty easy to circumvent most methods of permabanning players. Which is what the post I was commenting on originally was talking about.

But hey, good job on completely missing the conversation. Better luck next time :).

HalcyonDweller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Scary Door,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=0E9kk3Em,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-12T18:36:34.640+0000)

I'll go ahead and check the conversation more carefully there, chief. Here's what I ORIGINALLY responded to...

You didn't say it, but I responded to someone that did, then YOU took it upon yourself to join in the conversation when I pointed out that there is no way to ban someone permanently and make them "stay permabanned".

As you wrote in the comment to which I responded to, "Riot has methods, they've done it before."

To which I said, "no they haven't".

If you're going to respond to a comment I make directed at someone else, then you might want to know what the context of that conversation is first, otherwise it might make you look a little foolish.

You're right, I should have clarified in the first place what I meant by "Riot has methods." I've since done that.

Nah, it's called knowing what you're talking about, you should try it sometime.

Of course I'm not going to tell you what I know. Why on earth would I state publicly what I know about how Riot identifies multiple accounts belonging to the same player? Then people who try to cheat the system would have more info to use to try to work around it.

There's about 20 websites out there where you can buy an account (level 30) for $10, additional sites have accounts for slightly more but some of those already have champions or a shitload of IP on them. As you see it's pretty easy to circumvent most methods of permabanning players. Which is what the post I was commenting on originally was talking about.

The methods I mentioned previously still exist. It's easy for Riot to tell if a player gets on a new account and continues playing.

But hey, good job on completely missing the conversation. Better luck next time :).

Thanks I try.

Sraeg20133 votes

Of course I'm not going to tell you what I know. Why on earth would I tell someone - who clearly thinks it's ok to find workarounds to the system - what I know about how Riot identifies multiple accounts belonging to the same player?

Now you are the one putting words in people's mouths.

Stating something is a thing isn't giving consent.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

{quoted}

Now you are the one putting words in people's mouths.

Stating something is a thing isn't giving consent.

Fair point.

I'll redact that part of my statement.

macromite2 votes

I have a feeling he justs wants to know how the tracking works so he can get a workaround, funny how he hasn't realized already

HalcyonDweller2 votes

You'd think so, huh? After he went to so much effort to insult me and claim specifically that I knew nothing about it. As if I'd be stupid enough to answer and give it away.

Scary Door3 votes

I didn't "claim" you know nothing. It's actually quite apparent in your responses.

the boss baby1 votes

I lost brain cells reading this Don't be a cocky asshole dude it's just not ever necessary

dnsup2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Scary Door,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=0E9kk3Em,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-12T16:56:12.451+0000)

Simply having a lot of money doesn't mean you can do the impossible.

"The impossible"? That phrase has been used before.

"Do the impossible," like lobby the U.S. government (Congress is only the beginning) to (among other things) defeat net neutrality, maybe?

I'm not interested in that kind of game.

King LeBong2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, it sucks. They really should implement MAC address blocking for users who are permabanned (even though there are ways around that too).

They've clearly stated in the past they will ban accounts, but rarely a person. They shouldn't implement that, it goes against their "reform" policy entirely.

Kartagia1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with IP blocking is that it can affect computers with multiple users. For example family, or at internet cafes.

Also there are rather simple ways around it, which I won't explain because I don't want to teach people how to avoid the systems.

It sucks to live with jerk. And IP ban is wrong term. It should be IDENT ban targeting computer, not IP as IP is not fixed to computer. Your way of saying is "we cannot punish these jerks as somebody might be using same computer". This is equivalent saying "we cannot punish this criminal as some of his relatives might be living on the money he got with crime".

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

It sucks to live with jerk. And IP ban is wrong term. It should be IDENT ban targeting computer, not IP as IP is not fixed to computer.

I can appreciate and agree with your desire to identify people by their computer. The problem is that there are ways around that. It would be very difficult for Riot to track individual machines. One idea that I've had for this is if Riot implemented a Unique ID for each game client, something that would not change if the IP address or other methods of tracking were successfully avoided. It could be hidden somewhere within the game files. Similar to how every legal gun in the US is made with a unique barrel design to scratch it's own unique identifying pattern into any bullet fired with it.

Your way of saying is "we cannot punish these jerks as somebody might be using same computer". This is equivalent saying "we cannot punish this criminal as some of his relatives might be living on the money he got with crime".

This is hyperbole and it is not what I said. Really what I'm saying is more along the lines of, "we can't just blow up that house in a city in the middle east that we believe a terrorist is hiding in because the bomb could hurt other people in the same house or in houses adjacent to it."

Winters Dawn5 votes

{quoted}

I personally don't think Riot should allow players to have more than 2 accounts per IP address (1 main account, and one smurf to play with less skilled friends if necessary), but they don't really have a way to control smurfing at the moment. Unfortunately, it's a problem that they don't really appear to be keen on solving (mostly because they don't seem to consider smurfing an issue).

Even if someone were to say that to you, there really isn't any way for them to substantiate the claim that they have several other accounts. Just report them and hope for the best.

They could do the old dota thing they just implemented. you have to associate your account with a phone number or it would not be able to play ranked games, I think that would limit smurfing

NinjaGuy697 votes

They could do the old dota thing they just implemented. you have to associate your account with a phone number or it would not be able to play ranked games, I think that would limit smurfing

Get out of my head. But seriously, I was thinking the same exact thing.

http://gif-finder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Leonardo-DiCaprio-Clap.gif

korg0231 votes

are you kidding me? Have you ever heard of VPN ? People can use 1000000000 different ip adresses for different accounts if they are forced to. It would just be waste of time and resources for riot to even try something like that. On the other hand why would they even want that? What if one household have same internet ip adress and 5 familly members that all play league of legends and have different accounts? Should they all play on 2 accounts? Use your brain next time before comment ty.

Sraeg20132 votes

VPN?

Phew, all I have to do is to reset my router. Takes me 2 minutes.

Cowseed6 votes

Stop saying 'riot should insta-ban for saying x' it's retarded as hell and makes you sound like a grade 4 spoiled brat.

You make yourselves look like a joke when you do this as though RIOT is your rich uncle that will change the rules and policies on your whim. Stop fucking doing this. It's soooooooooooooooooooooooo fucking annoying to see this -every- -other- -day-!

HalcyonDweller4 votes

{quoted}

Stop saying 'riot should insta-ban for saying x' it's retarded as hell and makes you sound like a grade 4 spoiled brat.

You make yourselves look like a joke when you do this as though RIOT is your rich uncle that will change the rules and policies on your whim. Stop fucking doing this. It's soooooooooooooooooooooooo fucking annoying to see this -every- -other- -day-!

While I understand your frustration with this sort of post. I stand by my claim. I also backed it up with reasoning. Which is more than can be said for your ad hominem above.

I believe that players who are toxic, hold the system in contempt, and further mock their teammates for being powerless to do anything about it do not deserve to be a part of this community.

If you disagree please feel free to say so, but I will not cease if all you have to say is, "this is retarded and you sound spoiled." I couldn't care less what you think I sound like, and that aside I'm simply expressing what I think. I'm well aware that whether Riot chooses to do this or not is their prerogative. I didn't say, "Hey Riot do this," I simply said that they should. Whether they choose to or not is up to them.

Oh, you're annoyed? And you want me to not post about this? Now who's expecting others to change on their whim? Come back when you have a valid reason for me not to post about this. Otherwise, goodnight.

Cowseed3 votes

Let's see. Me being annoyed with other players trying to convince riot to stoop to draconian measures weighed against that same player insisting riot resort to draconian rule is annoyed with my tone.

My tone gets worse with each of these post I reply to so me being this rude I'm thinking that this is the epitome of repetitiveness. To say I'm sorry for being a bit rude.... honestly.... can't bother right now. The best you'll get from me is speaking like this. That aside I'm mostly annoyed because it really bothers me how people can easily get self righteous and believe that as long as their wronged any magnitude of a punishment is justified.

Call it a ad hominem if you wish but I really think you need to let off steam be_fore_ you go ranting on the boards. What my original post was trying to get across is that it makes it hard to take these post seriously when first line is 'insta-ban'

SnakDatSmilesBak3 votes

Then you should read the whole post before you judge it :/

Cowseed1 votes

????? Is that not plainly obvious? I read the whole post. Nothing redeming about it. He moves from screaming INSTABAN to assuming that he is some divine authority on who is a shitty human being.

So yes.... I read the post... and I judged it.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Yeah, I came out pretty hardline on the issue. But I stand by my main point. Certain behavior is absolutely unacceptable.

I've since edited the post to clarify what behavior, and in what situations and context. See the post for this clarification.

EDIT (Comment age: 4hr):

And since some other individuals have posted some persuasive responses I have softened my stance. I now believe it warrants an instant chat restriction, rather than an insta-ban.

Cowseed1 votes

I don't support that kind of behaviour, mind you. But at the same time I can just support suggestions that instantly rise to an inta-ban.

An insta-chat ban can serve as a proper warning and or punishment to that kind of attitude. Heck, they could even have the account put on low priotity queue starting at 10 mins for that. There are ways to deal with this kind of thing and it probably should be delt with as well but you have to keep a level head about these kinda thing.

Going foward with this stance you have to take into consideration the various situations that actually could occour. For example if you were to continue with the insta-ban goal and it comes to fruitation there could be situations were RIOT gets into hot water for banning someone who says they have multiple account just to piss someone off or act tough at the threat of a report and then they go public with this and they can't prove they do.

But anywho your thinking about this more level headedly so I'll leave you to your quest.

Good day, sir.

SnakDatSmilesBak2 votes

What's that I smell? It's hypocrisy!

hellzaman5 votes

Interestingly enough in CSGO (unless I'm misinformed) Valve has made it optional to insert/link your account to your mobile phone number. Those who chose to are rewarded with match queue priority and are only matched with other players who have also inserted their phone no. This dramatically decreases the number of smurfs in games (how many phone numbers can someone have) and decreases player toxicity (due to the link between their account and their real-worldself eg. They feel more liable for their actions). Is this a good solution? How you feel giving your mobile for a better player experience?

SorryForYourLoss3 votes

Sigh lol. I use VOIP apps and I have 4 different numbers for one phone. I can have up to 8 different lines. Giving your mobile number will do nothing but allow Riot to spam you reminders that you haven't played league in "x" hours and your win of the day is available.

dnsup2 votes

Plus, more corporate surveillance is not something anyone should push for.

its me brna3 votes

{quoted}

"I don't care if you report me, I have # other accounts."

Seriously, this is the most tilting thing to hear from a teammate ever. They take the system and spit it in your face with such contempt. On top of that it usually accompanies a whole host of other toxic behavior which they were already told to stop.

They're clearly being extremely shitty humans; they clearly don't intend to reform, and they clearly don't care about the impact they are having on their fellow teammates. This deserves a zero tolerance policy. Any player who says this should instantly lose their account, and maybe even get put on a watch list for identifying alt accounts to watch more closely for toxic behavior.

The biggest issue is, most of the time this behavior starts because of the other player's teammates. Do you want examples? Here:

  • [Player] picks Singed ADC or some other questionable champion for X role. Player does nothing wrong, team starts flaming him automatically because of his champion selection.
  • [Player] is having a bad game, or is on a losing streak. He's trying his best, however for his team it's simply not good enough. They accuse him of feeding the entire game and keep saying they're going to report him when he's doing absolutely nothing wrong.
  • [Player] is building "the wrong items", farming the Jungle because he's behind, not grouping, or a host of other things his team doesn't like. None of what he's doing is wrong or report-able however his team is making fun of him and giving him a hard time because they don't approve of the way he plays.

Your team is your worst enemy in League of Legends, the mute button is your best friend. Very few players cause problems without someone being unjustly rude to them.

Instead of making flame posts like this one, how about you examine yourself because that's the best way to avoid these situations from happening in the future. I've never played one single game in 5 years where someone on my team has began behavior like this where myself or someone on my team wasn't the root cause of the problem. Sure you can't control another player, but you have the power to mute the conversation if it's giving you that big of a headache.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my initial post. But please take a second to consider my reasons before you assume that I will assume anybody dying a lot is a feeder or anybody off-meta is a troll.

I've only rarely seen the situation you're talking about. Maybe once or twice, and that was when my teammates were flaming each other.

I don't flame teammates for offmeta picks or for doing poorly. I specifically challenge players for being unsportsmanlike, toxic, and hurtful to others. When they respond with,

"haha I don't care Riot's punishment system doesn't apply to me and you can't do anything to stop me!"

That is the sort of situation I am talking about.

The player is already being toxic, already exhibiting behavior deemed unacceptable by the community. It's taking it one step further and holding the system in contempt that I believe is the final kicker. That is what I believe to be a fair reason to permaban.

its me brna2 votes

{quoted}

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my initial post. But please take a second to consider my reasons before you assume that I will assume anybody dying a lot is a feeder or anybody off-meta is a troll.

I've only rarely seen the situation you're talking about. Maybe once or twice, and that was when my teammates were flaming each other.

I don't flame teammates for offmeta picks or for doing poorly. I specifically challenge players for being unsportsmanlike, toxic, and hurtful to others. When they respond with,

"haha I don't care Riot's punishment system doesn't apply to me and you can't do anything to stop me!"

That is the sort of situation I am talking about.

The player is already being toxic, already exhibiting behavior deemed unacceptable by the community. It's taking it one step further and holding the system in contempt that I believe is the final kicker. That is what I believe to be a fair reason to permaban.

Yes but, you can't start a fire without some source of ignition and fuel. What caused this player to reach this level of hostility? He surely didn't light himself on fire (so to speak) and without something to feed his flame.. he wouldn't continue the behavior. Someone else on his team is instigating and causing him to keep being hostile, it doesn't matter what you say to a player who is in this mode.. you should simply say nothing to them. Once someone is "tilted", "sparked", "on fire", the best method to prevent further issues is to simply pretend anything they said isn't there and don't aim anything at all towards them (not even a "Nice" or "GJ", nothing).

I understand fully your logic that things being said like this are unacceptable and should be punished, but often there's a lot that leads up to something like this being said that cannot be overlooked. Players do not just start off like this and it IS possible for a player to clean himself up and get themselves into a better mindset after being so heavily disturbed.

Many times I've said things I don't mean while playing this game, I've been chat restricted a couple times. Does that make me a bad person? No, not really. In fact I'm probably one of the nicest people you'll ever meet in real life. This game is very competitive, it's hard, it's frustrating to do your best and still struggle against another player who is better than you. It's not easy to control your emotions dealing with the amount of stress League induces when you are really trying your hardest and still losing. People say things they don't mean, their behavior gets out of check.

None of it means they deserve a permanent ban the instant they believe they're above the system. Once someone gets chat restricted or temporary banned they'll soon realize that they are not any better than anyone else and that they have things they can lose as well. That's the entire point of having the system, is to make players realize that they need to adjust their behavior because they're out of line.

You wouldn't call the police on your child simply because he told you that he hates you and hopes you die, the League system is set up to be no different. The system isn't going to permanently ban someone just because they're agitated, ignorant, and begin saying things which they really don't mean. Not everyone will learn and adjust, but a lot of players likely will and it wouldn't be fair for those players to get permanently banned the first time they slip up and say something stupid like this.

korg0232 votes

Why? This is not nazi germany people can say whatever they want in the free world. TRUMP!!!

4th3t0s3 votes

someone didn't read the EULA/ToS agreement. Freedom of speech doesn't fly here, this isn't a public space.

Skins Project2 votes

You know the US constitution doesn't even give freedom of speech. It just says they won't create laws against freedom of speech. Even then some things are "illegal to say" e.g anything that would cause public panic or chaos. Beyond that it's legally required for people to go to school, schools have censors, so indirectly once again limiting freedom of speech. I'v argued with about 7 diffrent americans who said, and I quote, "I'v never read the constitution but I know it gives me freedom of speech." It's sad how so many people don't know their own rights and piece it together from propaganda.

4th3t0s1 votes

Yes, my whole point was even if there was specific rights to freedom of speech, it doesn't fly here since it's a private IP with their own rules to follow; hence the EULA/ToS.

Skins Project2 votes

Oh yes, I'm not disagreeing. I'm just clarifying before some dip waltzes in and says, "HAHA NO US CONSTITUION SIZ DIS"

InivtesPreeze2 votes

"Riot won't do anything. I've been trolling for years." -instant ban

"This is ARAM Riot won't ban me for trolling ARAM." -instant ban

etc.

radetari2 votes

thats why i learned not to be toxic and say sorry when im feeding as yasuo or any other champ, sometimes u just meet better palyers, an sometimes its just not your day

radetari1 votes

instead of **** you say lol or something idk, be friendly, this relates to normals more than ranked, in ranked its somewhat justified to flame, cuz u wanna win and climb up ( in bronze its a nightmare), but in normals u just play to grind for ip, and with new missions comming out, maybe even get free skins or gemstones

bloodybadger11 votes

agree with your first comment, but i don't believe its ever justified to flame

Turleon2 votes

Honestly I was just permabanned and have several other accounts I'll admit. That cockiness changed when i got the banhammer, and i have been trying to reform since then. I don't know how people can legitimately go through each and every account they have and get permabanned

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I was just permabanned and have several other accounts I'll admit. That cockiness changed when i got the banhammer, and i have been trying to reform since then. I don't know how people can legitimately go through each and every account they have and get permabanned

I appreciate your weighing in on this, it's good to see that the system has an effect on players.

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