Boards›Player Behavior

Can we please put the "safe space" argument to rest?

HalcyonDweller··86 votes·21,685 views

It's not relevant, and it's borderline political.

I highly doubt Riot is trying to create a "safe space" at least, not in the sense that people usually use the phrase. More often than not, I see people who throw around the "safe space" and "snowflake" rhetoric acting like they are victims of some kind of passive system. It just doesn't make sense to me, if you think league is a "safe space" then what pray tell is the opposite that you so desperately seem to strive for?

League is a game, and it's there for people to have fun. For ALL people to have fun, not just for flamers with no self-control. So if having fun for these people means attempting to ruin others' fun by making them feel miserable then I don't see why that should be allowed.

Edit: I need to clarify something because people seem to think I'm arguing about whether or not Riot is making league a safe space. That's not what I'm arguing about.

{quoted}

I'm against people who use "snowflakes" and "safe spaces" as excuses to blame Riot for their punishment instead of accepting responsibility for their own lack of self-control.

I didn't explain it very well in the original post, but it's better outlined in the comments, both here and here

What I'm arguing about is that people come to the boards and make posts saying they (or someone else) didn't deserve to be punished and were only punished because league is being made into a "safe space" and because sjws and snowflakes are running amok. This is ridiculous, and the people who say this are usually just clinging to excuses to avoid questioning themselves or admitting that maybe they went a little too far with their behavior.

I'm all for having a discussion about how the punishment system needs improvement. But the moment you come to the boards making a post like "RIOT = SJWs" or other stupid stuff you kill the opportunity for us to have a productive discussion. You waste everyone's time, and you make yourself look like a fool.

314 Comments

dimex13517 votes

But then you can just mute the people who ruin your fun?

Karunamon17 votes

Muting is reactive, someone has to direct abuse your way first, when the rule is no abusing period.

Besides, people can just exercise some self control?

HalcyonDweller31 votes

I already do. This isn't just about me and my own gameplay.

What you just did there was shove the burden of responsibility entirely onto the people who get harassed. People like you often argue, saying "we can't be expected to always control our anger when people do truly infuriating things that piss us off!" And honestly I agree that you can't be expected to always keep your cool.

But your exact same argument can be used to defend people who get flamed too. They cannot be expected to always have the self-control and self-awareness necessary to simply mute someone who flames them. Everyone is human, they're at varying levels of development and varying levels of emotional control. You can't expect them to bear 100% of the burden of self-control and argue that flamers shouldn't also be held responsible too.

tldr; the problem is twofold, and the responsibility for it is shared. People should not be so easily offended, but just the same, "There is a mute button" is never an excuse to act like a very shitty person.

La Belle Sauvage7 votes

Excellent reply. And I have some thinking to do on it.

mlm olo mlm13 votes

What you just did there was shove the burden of responsibility entirely onto the people who get harassed.

Such a heavy burden it is too. Be careful on your journey to the TAB key. I've seen many travelers veer off course. IF you make it to the TAB key, you will be presented with a taunting task. The legendary left click. No mortal has ever conquered the left click.

Anyways,

if you think league is a "safe space" then what pray tell is the opposite that you so desperately seem to strive for?

Freedom for all is what I strive for. Basically it comes down to, "righteous" people don't want to let "toxic" people express freedom of speech. However, "toxic" people have no problem letting "righteous" people express freedom of speech.

I personally prefer freedom because it is beneficial to EVERYONE.

For ALL people to have fun

The punishment system is not fun for all. It does not benefit everyone. It solely benefits the "righteous" people. Only the "righteous" people have fun.

Now we understand why the "righteous" people are so against freedom. The punishment system is fun and benefits the "righteous" people.

HalcyonDweller12 votes

[{quoted}](name=mlm olo mlm,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=4N6LVtXe,comment-id=000200010002,timestamp=2018-05-29T20:29:42.492+0000)

Such a heavy burden it is too. Be careful on your journey to the TAB key. I've seen many travelers veer off course. IF you make it to the TAB key, you will be presented with a taunting task. The legendary left click. No mortal has ever conquered the left click.

I appreciate good sass, but it's a moral and ethical burden. Obviously the physical act of muting someone is easier than most things, but when you take into consideration the self-control required it's a more even issue. Both the flamer and the flamee that gets offended are equally responsible for their failure to control themselves and for allowing their egos to take the wheel.

When I see people complain about flamers here I almost always advocate that they should (or should have) mute(d) the person who offended them. But that's still a hop, skip and a jump from claiming that the flamer wasn't responsible for their own loss of self-control.

Anyways,

Freedom for all is what I strive for. Basically it comes down to, "righteous" people don't want to let "toxic" people express freedom of speech. However, "toxic" people have no problem letting "righteous" people express freedom of speech.

I personally prefer freedom because it is beneficial to EVERYONE.

Freedom is great. However a lot of people misuse it to wrong others. When I was in gradeschool, a particular kid would often retaliate to things. he would escalate and escalate the situation, even when he couldn't see that he was the one who started it. "I'm just applying retribution" he'd say, when in reality the other person was the one who was taking retribution for what he had done. One day he pissed off the wrong girl in class and she wasn't having any of his shit, he took "retribution" one time too many and she stabbed him in the hand with a pencil.

tldr; people use freedom as an excuse to act as judge, jury, and executioner on others whom they think have wronged them. It only leads to trouble. Both kids in my story were in the wrong, but it wouldn't have been an issue at all if the boy hadn't had a tendency to always see himself in the right and always think he could and should take retribution against perceived wrongs.

The punishment system is not fun for all. It does not benefit everyone. It solely benefits the "righteous" people. Only the "righteous" people have fun.

Now we understand why the "righteous" people are so against freedom. The punishment system is fun and benefits the "righteous" people.

As someone who thinks of himself as righteous, I disagree. I don't like or agree with the current punishment system, it has flaws, and it's methods are outdated, clunky, and excessive. That said, the behaviors that it punishes for, are for the most part worth punishing. People need to learn to not do those things, because they make the game worse for both themselves and others.

  1. I think Riot should revamp the punishment system to give more leeway to the punished. But I won't go in-depth on that here because it's off topic for the thread.

  2. I think that Riot should do more to teach others alternatives to flaming. Because there are lots of better ways to get what you want out of teammates, but people just don't know how or they take shit too personally and then try to seek retribution against their teammate when really that's just counterproductive to what they really want in the end, which is just a fun game where everyone plays their best and tries to win.

mlm olo mlm7 votes

responsible for their own loss of self-control.

It's not Riots or the communities responsibility to punish loss of self-control. This isn't "league of maintain perfect self-control".

Freedom is great. However a lot of people misuse it to wrong others.

It is impossible to misuse freedom. That is why "righteous" people are so scared by what "toxic" people might do.

tldr; people use freedom as an excuse to act as judge, jury, and executioner on others whom they think have wronged them.

It's ok when Riot does it though, right? The "righteous" people are allowed to act as judge, jury, and executioner because the "righteous" people are FREE to do so.

Mcsquzzy3 votes

Also in the ToS you gave riot to be judge jury and executioner, so why are you complaining about something you explicitly gave them the authority to do in their game?

Edit: https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/legal/termsofuse just if you don't believe me its in the code of conduct section part v here if you do believe me Transmitting or communicating any content which, in the sole and exclusive discretion of Riot Games, is deemed offensive, including language that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, or racially, ethically, or otherwise objectionable;

fryinballs433 votes

What's questionable is the amount of money players put into their accounts and then get banned. Some people even have had accounts since season 1 and are still getting banned. Hell, EVEN Imaqtpie got a chat restriction and everyone loves him. I don't really see anyone touching on the main issue of concern here and that's money. People buy RP everyday and it makes Riot even richer. Then they start banning accounts like crazy and next thing you know people make new accounts and buy more RP. Can't you see the scheme? Riot wants more money.

I remember back in Season 3. I got a shitload of chat restrictions before I even got a two week ban. And then I started getting more two week bans until they eventually decided I was a lost cause and perma banned my account. Then like a year later they actually unbanned my account.

Now it's, 3 times you're in trouble straight away a 2 week ban. Then the system just looks for any reason to perma ban you. This system is idiotic. But again, Riot wants as much money as they can get. I mean, don't you see? They change IP to blue essence. Why? To make money.

I'm honestly done with the game at this point. People can't handle typed out words in a chat and get all offended like snowflakes. Yea I said. You really care about what some stranger says who lives probably halfway across the world? So much so that you gotta report them? I feel really bad for you people honestly. Taking a fucking video game so seriously. Blows my mind. But this is the millennials fault i'm almost positive.

It Hertz When IP12 votes

It's perfectly OK to get angry. What some don't seem to realize is that they do NOT have a right to act on that anger.

HarrisonOwns7 votes

The burden of responsibility IS on the user.

They have the mute button.

They can either use it or stop being a bitch.

HalcyonDweller9 votes

{quoted}

The burden of responsibility IS on the user.

They have the mute button.

They can either use it or stop being a bitch.

Gosh I actually agree with you for once.

And interestingly enough that argument can also be applied to the flamer. They are the user of the chat. They can either flame or be constructive. The choice and responsibility for that decision is theirs, just like the offended user should be responsible and mute the flamer.

Funny how that works.

ninjaroxas6 votes

Still doesn't mean it's fine to be toxic.

Rolling Girl15 votes

Frankly the expectations and rules regarding behaviour in League (and similar online games in general) are not only pretty easy to follow, but they're the exact same expectations you'd see in any other space where you interact with other people. If you started shouting at someone to kill themselves at a restaurant you'd get your ass thrown out but nobody is crying about le evil sjw restaurants

HalcyonDweller7 votes

I legitimately laughed, "le evil sjw restaurants" ahahaha

Thank you for making a great point and illustrating it with such a funny example!

CrazFight 9 votes

I think riot does sometimes go overboard, 80% of the censored words I have no idea are hate speech. I wanted to name my build "spicy build" but it was censored because "spic". So I had to google what it meant, thanks for teaching me that word btw riot. I've also had a friend named something that was considered "hate speech" in a different country/language so he was forced to change his name.

HalcyonDweller22 votes

Yeah, they go overboard sometimes...

...but this constant self-victimization is a problem. People act like they and everything they hold dear are under attack simply because they aren't free to try and make someone else feel miserable when they want to.

They make slippery slope arguments and equate punishment of genuinely garbage behavior to totalitarian rule and loss of genuine freedom.

Emo Twink8 votes

People just call basic human decency 'SJW bullshit' or something and it's so frustrating.

ı Sona ı7 votes

I think that if we all remember that this is just a game and that it was designed for us to have fun, we will be able to be just a little bit nicer to each other even when it isn't going our way!

HalcyonDweller3 votes

I appreciate you, this is a nice sentiment to have. I think it's a little too optimistic and I think that people will need more guidance to reach that point, but your heart is absolutely in the right place. I too wish that people were less try-hard and less stressed over it, it is just a game after all.

ı Sona ı6 votes

{quoted}

I appreciate you, this is a nice sentiment to have. I think it's a little too optimistic and I think that people will need more guidance to reach that point, but your heart is absolutely in the right place. I too wish that people were less try-hard and less stressed over it, it is just a game after all.

You are right, its level of optimism and wishful thinking does lean on the overly optimistic side, but I think that is why it is so successful! People tend to have a set way of doing things, a set way of how they want things done, and little room to be able to have an open and fair conversation about it. Said another way, people tend to lash out at things that are unfamiliar and different, and blame it if everything doesn't go there way. Despite how we try to teach our children against it, it becomes a societal norm. The only way to combat that is to find someone having a bad day and blaming everyone else, give them a hug, and give them a cookie. First we have to calm them down, then we have to let them know that it isn't so bad, and you are willing to give something of yours to them to let them know that you are someone willing to do this for them.

That goes the same with playing. I often encounter players who are downright mean to me, but I approach it with the attitude that I would want to be given. Great job when they get the kill, excellent teamwork when they get the turret, and letting them know that its ok to die in game and that we'll get to the end together. Calm, cool, collected, you can influence a player who is having a bad game and beginning to tilt into someone that is willing to listen to you for the better, without directly trying to, thus affecting the game in a positive direction.

HalcyonDweller5 votes

I agree with everything else you said but I just want to highlight this one thing that is especially awesome:

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=4N6LVtXe,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2018-05-29T22:38:43.155+0000)

The only way to combat that is to find someone having a bad day and blaming everyone else, give them a hug, and give them a cookie. First we have to calm them down, then we have to let them know that it isn't so bad, and you are willing to give something of yours to them to let them know that you are someone willing to do this for them.

YOU are fantastic. You are one of my new favorite people. Thank you for doing this sort of thing to help people out. +1 and I wish I could +10

QueenAqua6 votes

I like you man. Been reading your replies and you really think about what your gonna say before you say it. Wish I could +10 every one of your responses

HalcyonDweller5 votes

lol thanks, it has been a long journey to get to this point. Still working on it too.

MAGA Trump MAGA6 votes

I don't agree with you to be honest. The fact that you can be chat restricted until you are banned for having a disagreement with team members kind of shows the "Safe Space" approach and to be honest in a game they want the largest audience for it actually makes sense from a business perspective that they want the safe space. That makes the game the most inclusive it could be to further provide the revenue it has the potential to generate.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

Alright I'm going to have to edit the post. You're the second or third person to think that I'm arguing about whether or not Riot is trying to make league a safe space. Sorry for causing confusion.

I'm talking about when people use "league is a safe space" as an excuse to argue that they didn't deserve to be punished. They're not trying to have a discussion about how the system may be failing and how it should be improved, they're just seeking validation and support that there is nothing wrong with them and they aren't at fault for their misdeeds.

MAGA Trump MAGA4 votes

Okay so aside from hateful comments i honestly find nothing wrong in how anyone speaks.... If it isn't racist , homophobic or something like that then everyone needs to grow up and embrace the fact that people can say what they want just like you can mute them. Acting like people need to be punished for anything other than hate speech is in line with how a "Safe Space" operates. It's really a simple thing to see.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

I think that if people actively make choices with the intention of making other people feel like crap then they should be punished for that. be it insults through chat or plays intended to lose the game.

Even hate speech doesn't really compare in my mind to the efforts some people make to literally ruin other peoples' days. It's indefensible, and it serves no purpose. The people who engage in such choices are working against their own self-interest, and they aren't going to realize that on their own, because it is inherent to feeling justified in doing that.

MAGA Trump MAGA2 votes

Okay let's go with this then....

Those people choose to be made to feel like shit. They LITERALLY CHOOSE that. There is a mute function. When someone starts in on me which is easy due to my name... Ya know what I do ? MUTE ! It's really easy and nobody affects me when I cannot see what they say. Their pings can convey any relevant information about the game that I might need. I can mute them without a second though and just continue on with my day playing Nami or whatever. I can be happy and just know that guy is a salty jerk whilest I continue to try to win the game. Why ? Because there is a functioning mute system and a report system if they immediately went too far. So let people go out of their way to say what they want so long as it isn't hate speech. It really doesn't matter because just like they have the right to say what they want I have the right to mute them and keep playing my game while minding my own. EASY DAY.

So the current system caters to willing victims and makes the game cater to the "Safe Space" idea which from a maximum playerbase standpoint is a sound business strategy. Yet it does cater to the "Safe Space" still when there are already tools at any player's disposal to prevent them from being affected by someone else's communicated bullcrap.

ModUlanopo8 votes

They LITERALLY CHOOSE that.

That's not how emotions work. Language is intended to elicit a response. That's how communication works and why language, posture and tone are structured the way they are. It's no more possible to control your emotions than it is to avoid flinching when someone goes to punch you in the face (even highly trained boxers "flinch", it's just been repurposed through long practice into a defensive maneuver).

While it is possible to modulate your reaction to emotions, as Halcyon continues to point out, this is an unfair expectation to place on others. It's the moral equivalent to saying, "if you would just learn how to take a punch, I could hit you more and it would be okay."

MAGA Trump MAGA3 votes

Your emotions are your problem and your problem alone. You either let or do not let people effect you. That's how choice works. So if you let some League player ruin your day by them raging at you then you have bigger issues than chat. Also ... IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE TO CONTROL YOUR EMOTIONS. How you react and perceive things is in your hands. Whether you would like to acknowledge that or not is neither here nor there. You are in control of what you filter out. You should always filter out anonymous people who spew trash at you. Emotional response comes from someone who you put stock in saying something whether it is little or great amounts of stock is up to you. I put ZERO stock in people on league of legends. Therefor they do not effect me in the least and my emotional response is perfectly controlled. Easy day.

ModUlanopo5 votes

Emotional response comes from someone who you put stock in saying something whether it is little or great amounts of stock is up to you.

Translated: this particular thing doesn't affect me, so it shouldn't affect you either. Way to diminish the experiences of others.

MAGA Trump MAGA3 votes

You are perceiving this rather defensively. I am simply showing it is in fact possible and the process that it takes for people to affect you. If you're incapable of taking the words for what they are rather than defensively than I guess there is no point in further discussion. I just have a distaste for saying people have no agency over their emotions or reactions. It doesn't sit well because I know the opposite is true from having controlled myself. Either way have a nice night.

ModUlanopo1 votes

You are perceiving this rather defensively.

That's your emotional reaction to my position and manner of expressing myself.

I just have a distaste for saying people have no agency over their emotions or reactions.

That's a misrepresentation. It's perfectly normal for someone to be afraid of heights. It's possible for someone to overcome or work around that fear. The question is, is it morally permissible to obligate someone to do so?

Similarly, much of the language used in League is designed to provoke an emotional response. It's not like people are throwing together random grunting sounds and hoping for the best. They speak with intent. That being the case, why is the burden on the listener instead of the speaker?

MAGA Trump MAGA2 votes

For any further response to your points I recently explained them to Halcyon and feel those words adequately express my standpoint.

mlm olo mlm2 votes

{quoted} Similarly, much of the language used in League is designed to provoke an emotional response. It's not like people are throwing together random grunting sounds and hoping for the best. They speak with intent. That being the case, why is the burden on the listener instead of the speaker?

The speaker intends to offend the listener. It is up to the listener whether they are offended. The speaker does not intend to offend the listener. It is up to the listener whether they are offended.

Notice how intentions don't make a difference?

How about this for burden: it takes 3 buttons to report someone. It takes 2 buttons to mute someone. Why are you burdening yourself?

ModUlanopo1 votes

The speaker intends to offend the listener. It is up to the listener whether they are offended. The speaker does not intend to offend the listener. It is up to the listener whether they are offended.

Notice how intentions don't make a difference?

Again, that's not how these things work. The ability of the target to defend themselves or ignore the behavior does not in any way change the nature of the attack. Just because I know how to block a punch doesn't make it not assault when someone tries to hit me.

How about this for burden: it takes 3 buttons to report someone. It takes 2 buttons to mute someone. Why are you burdening yourself?

That's a really disingenuous argument.

mlm olo mlm2 votes

{quoted}

Again, that's not how these things work. The ability of the target to defend themselves or ignore the behavior does not in any way change the nature of the attack. Just because I know how to block a punch doesn't make it not assault when someone tries to hit me.

Intention does not matter.

A person intentionally punches me. I get hurt. A person unintentionally punches me. I get hurt.

They speak with intent. That being the case, why is the burden on the listener instead of the speaker?

Intention does not matter. The listener decides whether or not to become a victim. The interpretation of words can be different than the intention of words. Since intention does not affect interpretation.

Since the listener determines interpretation and not intention, it is their burden to avoid communication they interpret as not wanted. Since the speaker determines intention and not interpretation, they really don't matter. (Intention does not matter)

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

That's not how emotions work. Language is intended to elicit a response. That's how communication works and why language, posture and tone are structured the way they are. It's no more possible to control your emotions than it is to avoid flinching when someone goes to punch you in the face (even highly trained boxers "flinch", it's just been repurposed through long practice into a defensive maneuver).

While it is possible to modulate your reaction to emotions, as Halcyon continues to point out, this is an unfair expectation to place on others. It's the moral equivalent to saying, "if you would just learn how to take a punch, I could hit you more and it would be okay."

This a false analogy, you're implying intent that's not implicit. Just because someone says "shut up you suck" doesn't mean they intended you harm you. If someone punches you in the face they absolutely do. I know this might be hard for an SJW to understand but sometimes this is just banter intended to be funny.

This goes both ways you're expecting the "flamer" to conform to your cultural norms. While refusing to conform to their cultural norms. The difference though you want the "flamer" banned, while the "flamer" just wants you to hit a button that takes 2 seconds.

There is also the self defense angle that gets ignored which is if someone trying to punch me(flames me first) and i dodge the punch and put him in a headlock(flame him in response) the SJW types still think i should be "chat restricted/banned"

ModUlanopo1 votes

I know this might be hard for an SJW to understand by sometimes this is just banter intended to be funny.

I'm going to stop you right there. The moment you stoop to an ad hominem, you have effectively conceded the debate. At the very least it's a clear indication that you don't have anything meaningful to say and can be safely ignored.

Have a great evening.

mlm olo mlm2 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to stop you right there. The moment you stoop to an ad hominem, you have effectively conceded the debate. At the very least it's a clear indication that you don't have anything meaningful to say and can be safely ignored.

Have a great evening.

So you "ignored" them by quoting them and directly communicating with them?

You can't get past the "bad" words to see the "good" words. That is only hurting yourself.

RookPusher5 votes

This feels like a strawman.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

TBH it kind of is. But I've seen enough people use the phrases "safe space" and "snowflake" in precisely the manner that I'm describing that I feel it is a fair one. People defend flaming. With these exact arguments. I just don't see how it is defensible.

RookPusher1 votes

{quoted}

TBH it kind of is. But I've seen enough people use the phrases "safe space" and "snowflake" in precisely the manner that I'm describing that I feel it is a fair one. People defend flaming. With these exact arguments. I just don't see how it is defensible.

I think I've lost which side you're on. At any rate, the people who argue for these things are a substantial minority. I wouldn't waste your time getting worked up.

HalcyonDweller8 votes

I'm against people who use "snowflakes" and "safe spaces" as excuses to blame Riot for their punishment instead of accepting responsibility for their own lack of self-control.

I didn't explain it very well in the original post, but it's better outlined in the comments, both here and here

Also this is something that I've had issues with. Run across it enough times that it did prompt me to make a post. Sure I should probably let it go, but I might as well put the thinking out there to see if others agree. And it seems they do.

GigglesO5 votes

I want a safe space, it’s called tower range.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

lol thanks for making my morning a little better. <3

3TWarrior1 votes

Fizz : what's that? A safe space? Good thing I have my Troll Pole!

HalcyonDweller2 votes

The jungler watching the carnage unfold from the sidelines:

[zombie-nunu-tears]

3TWarrior3 votes

XinZhao : yo, any of you seen a spear lying about? Oh, there it is. Didn't see it stuck in you! XD

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