Petition To Have An Old Lady Champion

ShadowParker·Aug 16, 2015·947 votes·103,021 views

This must happen. League does not have one yet.

Upvote if you want an old lady champion.

Edit: Keep in mind this was posted two years ago guys.

481 Comments

DylightfullAug 16, 2015168 votes

http://www.fantasydimensions.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Big-Bad-Warwick-Skin.jpg

Warwick would like to have a word with you.

XhaderAug 16, 201555 votes

Who? You mean Grandm-wait a minute..

CupcakeTrapAug 16, 201529 votes

{quoted}

Who? You mean Grandm-wait a minute..

Run! RUN!

Pshew. That was close.

Well, now that you're safe, how about a snack? Like a tasty cupcake? Nothing dangerous in eating a cupcake. Go on. You deserve a treat.

TheRainInSpainAug 16, 201510 votes

Obviously a Caitlyn Warwick lane.

Toa of DeathAug 16, 201523 votes

Well that's nice of yo-wait a minute, why is there a trap under the cupcake?

CupcakeTrapAug 16, 201529 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toa of Death,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=vgnG3WYN,comment-id=0006000000000002,timestamp=2015-08-16T06:21:10.396+0000)

Well that's nice of yo-wait a minute, why is there a trap under the cupcake?

You are clearly delusional from low blood sugar.

Zone of EndlessAug 16, 201514 votes

{quoted}

http://www.fantasydimensions.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Big-Bad-Warwick-Skin.jpg

Warwick would like to have a word with you.

that's it.

The old lady Warwick ate. She was revived by some unknown randies to take revenge on Warwick.

#lore

RiotMeddlerAug 16, 2015120 votes

I think there are cool characters, who as part of their identity are also old ladies, that could be a good fit in League of Legends. I don't think 'League doesn't have one' is a sufficient argument by itself though, for any concept. League doesn't have a harpy for example, a classic monster from myth and other fantasy settings. That doesn't mean we should necessarily make one though. Whether or not a harpy allows us to tell new stories, offer new gameplay, create a different personality, show a distinct visual silhouette etc better than other concepts is what we're interested in. We'll always have more concepts than we'll be able to make, so comparing what an idea lets us do is really important.

As far as old lady goes I think there's a lot that piece of background goes well with. If a character's physically old, but still able to compete with other champions, there's got to be something else impressive about them. That could be a wealth of knowledge and training, or massive willpower and resilience built up over a lifetime. They might move differently to many other champions, much more controlled, precise motions for example, rather than the more flashy speed/strength based combat of others. They'll almost certainly have a pretty different outlook on things from characters who are still pretty early on in their lives, who are still mastering their powers or figuring out their place in the world.

Age by itself though isn't a justification for making a character. It's a means to an end, not the end in and of itself, just like any other character trait.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 16, 2015106 votes

You forgot some of our elder ladies in the cast though!

Kalista A spirit of vengence that technically doesn't age. Lissandra Looks not a day over 30,000 Morgana Possibly immortal. Kayle Also possibly immortal. Evelynn ??? Elise Also sacrifices for age reduction spider cream. Nidalee Cougar

FistOfSharkieshaAug 16, 20156 votes

Elise and Lissandra are the only ones from above that we actually have a reason to believe are several decades old or more. Kallista is a vengeful spirit or specter. Lulu however is canonically hundreds of years old.

QuortAug 16, 201517 votes

Kayle and Morganna are over 10,000 years old (and they are immortal).

Kalista's age is never mentioned as far as I know, but in her lore it references eternity a lot so it's entirely possible for her to be a few centuries old (at least).

The truth is that the OP is looking for a particular aesthetic as opposed to actual age, because there are plenty of ancient females in the League!

NarasimhaAug 16, 201510 votes

Just to jump in, I'm going to take a swing and say that Kayle and Morganna's immortality is probably the "immunity to time and disease" variant. I'd guess they can still be killed through conventional means, seeing as how a war without anyone ever dying would get old pretty quickly (badum tish).

RiotMistriotAug 16, 201598 votes

Cougar

I did not see that last one coming.

ModCaptainMårvelousAug 16, 201553 votes

Yeah her spears are bugged. You never really seem them until you have one wedged in your spine.

Count BuffonAug 16, 201528 votes

And yet there are a bunch of middle-aged men and Zilean Swain . When 70ish female champions are out and all of them are either "ageless" or look under 35 and have the same body type (unless yordle/under 18), it speaks to a massive blind spot. "Women who aren't swimsuit models" isn't anywhere near as specific as "harpy". You'd have to be a Rito champion designer to think otherwise.

Electro522Aug 16, 201524 votes

I don't know about you, but Kalista isn't what I would consider "swimsuit model" material. Yes, Riot has, in the past, quite oversexualized their female champs, even Kayle and Leona , which aren't supposed to be swimsuit models, still have that body, coupled with breast armor.

However, recently, we can see Riot move away from this almost perverted look towards female champs. The skins released are not that bad, and the female champs released are only sexualized if their lore permits it. For example, Elise , of whom seducts her victims into being dragged back to the Shadow Iles.

Diana really isn't that bad, and also the new Fiora . Jinx is another example, and she actually sparked a debate on Riot's look towards female champs due to her lack of.......assets. These champs all fit their lore quite well, instead of just fitting that "swimsuit model" theme.

Count BuffonAug 16, 20153 votes

None of these are clear counterexamples of the body type or age. Some of them are just moodier or ghostier or wear more. And Jinx looks 14 years old, more or less as I said earlier. No tank or brawler champions that look like weightlifters, etc.

Dextix LTAug 16, 201512 votes

RekSai Everyone always conveniently "forgets" this girl.

Lulu Yep, this discussion tastes purple.

Poppy Sup?

You gave us 2 old champs, here, there are at least 3 different from your "sexualized" female champions.

RiotMeddlerAug 16, 201534 votes

Not sure where you're getting the impression I'm arguing for swimsuit models as the way to make female champions. Over the last couple of years we've deliberately targeted a wider range of champions in many regards, which has included, but isn't limited to, body type and gender. Our female champions don't have as much variety as our male champions, and I personally feel that's been a missed opportunity in the past because it means we missed out on cool types of character, story, theme and gameplay opportunities.

'Old lady' though's not a fleshed out character, but a small part of an individual, in the same way that Swain isn't just 'old man'. Start talking about old female characters that are actual characters and we get somewhere really interesting. Examples of that I think are well done are M as portrayed by Judi Dench in various Bond films say, or the Dowager Countess in Downton Abbey as played by Maggie Smith. Flemeth from Dragon age as someone mentioned below's a great example to me from another fantasy setting, as are Granny Weatherwax/Nanny Ogg (Discworld).

Reaper SorakaAug 16, 20158 votes

Old lady cc'er. She constantly scolds a target and hits them with her giant purse, of which nobody has any idea how she manages to carry.

CupcakeTrapAug 16, 201521 votes

{quoted}

As far as old lady goes I think there's a lot that piece of background goes well with. If a character's physically old, but still able to compete with other champions, there's got to be something else impressive about them. That could be a wealth of knowledge and training, or massive willpower and resilience built up over a lifetime. They might move differently to many other champions, much more controlled, precise motions for example, rather than the more flashy speed/strength based combat of others. They'll almost certainly have a pretty different outlook on things from characters who are still pretty early on in their lives, who are still mastering their powers or figuring out their place in the world.

Well, um. I mean. They're Champions. Of course there's something impressive about them. We've got sword-wielding knights who can go toe-to-toe with giant Void monsters. We've got little girls who can brawl with barbarian kings and Ascended guardians. I have trouble seeing how "being old" is a serious problem. That's kind of like saying, "Hmm, this Thor character, I'm just not sure how a Viking with a short-handled hammer could really stand up to people with laser guns. He might need a giant mech or something to make it make sense." If you literally parse, for example, Caitlyn as "a stern officer of the law who's a pretty good marksman", or Garen as "this guy with a sword who's really excited about yelling Demacia", you've got some serious setting cohesion problems.

That said, sure, older Champions are usually portrayed as relying on cunning and skill rather than pure brawn. Swain doesn't run around doing dive-rolls and hurling cars at people. He grumbles at them, tells them to get off his lawn, and then morphs into a giant bird and eats them.

RiotMeddlerAug 16, 201536 votes

I don't think being old's any sort of problem for a champion, let alone a serious one. I don't feel it's anymore a justification for a character by itself than 'tall' is however - might be an important part of a character's identity but isn't an argument by itself.

LavasiothAug 16, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I think there are cool characters, who as part of their identity are also old ladies, that could be a good fit in League of Legends. I don't think 'League doesn't have one' is a sufficient argument by itself though, for any concept. League doesn't have a harpy for example, a classic monster from myth and other fantasy settings. That doesn't mean we should necessarily make one though. Whether or not a harpy allows us to tell new stories, offer new gameplay, create a different personality, show a distinct visual silhouette etc better than other concepts is what we're interested in. We'll always have more concepts than we'll be able to make, so comparing what an idea lets us do is really important.

As far as old lady goes I think there's a lot that piece of background goes well with. If a character's physically old, but still able to compete with other champions, there's got to be something else impressive about them. That could be a wealth of knowledge and training, or massive willpower and resilience built up over a lifetime. They might move differently to many other champions, much more controlled, precise motions for example, rather than the more flashy speed/strength based combat of others. They'll almost certainly have a pretty different outlook on things from characters who are still pretty early on in their lives, who are still mastering their powers or figuring out their place in the world.

Age by itself though isn't a justification for making a character. It's a means to an end, not the end in and of itself, just like any other character trait.

Hey Meddler real curious have you ever considered a champ like a traditional hag? Sort of a Baba yaga or fairytale witch type character? because honestly that sound fairly appealing. maybe refrence some other old women of myth and give her a single removable eye?

RiotMeddlerAug 16, 201522 votes

It's a concept we've talked about a number of times. Lot of cool folklore to draw on there, and the chance for a really unnerving champion with an uncommon (in LoL at least) style of magic. We haven't hit on a version that's worked for us yet, I'm sure it'll keep coming up though.

ShadowParkerAug 16, 20155 votes

I'm not saying we need to have an old lady champion and have the background of just being old. I'm saying that I want a champion who is female, and physically looks old. Much like how Zilean is. You can have any background you want, she can part of the black rose order, a demacian official, etc.. But the league does not have one yet.

Señor KarthusAug 16, 20158 votes

{quoted}

I think there are cool characters, who as part of their identity are also old ladies, that could be a good fit in League of Legends. I don't think 'League doesn't have one' is a sufficient argument by itself though, for any concept. League doesn't have a harpy for example, a classic monster from myth and other fantasy settings. That doesn't mean we should necessarily make one though. Whether or not a harpy allows us to tell new stories, offer new gameplay, create a different personality, show a distinct visual silhouette etc better than other concepts is what we're interested in. We'll always have more concepts than we'll be able to make, so comparing what an idea lets us do is really important.

As far as old lady goes I think there's a lot that piece of background goes well with. If a character's physically old, but still able to compete with other champions, there's got to be something else impressive about them. That could be a wealth of knowledge and training, or massive willpower and resilience built up over a lifetime. They might move differently to many other champions, much more controlled, precise motions for example, rather than the more flashy speed/strength based combat of others. They'll almost certainly have a pretty different outlook on things from characters who are still pretty early on in their lives, who are still mastering their powers or figuring out their place in the world.

Age by itself though isn't a justification for making a character. It's a means to an end, not the end in and of itself, just like any other character trait.

WTF how can you compare mythological creatures with human representation? All your women are young, good looking, most of them show boobs at some point or another are incredibly sexualized. There are old male characters but "non good looking female characters" suddenly would be just to "compel with the representation check"? The amount of white people in the game was already disgusting. Lucian and Ekko were characters that HAD to exist. But now "an old female champion is something that needs to be thought about"? Why the appearance of someone has to be so important with the thematic?

Why an old female champion has to be an old witch in the forest and not a warlord?

Please stop with the sexist bullshit and the cheap fanservice.

RiotMeddlerAug 16, 201532 votes

Replace 'Harpy' with 'tall person' then for sake of argument. Being tall isn't in and of itself enough of an identity to make a character. You could certainly use it as a springboard to get to something interesting. Brienne of Tarth in Game of Thrones taps into that, she's got a lot more going on than just 'tall' though. It's part of her character, and has been influential on her life, but her presence in the story's not just so there's a tall woman there. Tall is a useful tool, not the entire picture.

Old female champion who's a warlord? Cool, that's got the potential to be more than just a stereotype and instead lead to an individual with a distinct identity and a story it'd be great to learn more about. 'Old lady' by contrast's just a starting point, not a complete package by itself.

Dextix LTAug 16, 201510 votes

Anivia Lulu RekSai Poppy

Much objefication, such sexist. Much young, such goodlooking. Much boobs, such sexy.

This sexism bullshit is getting out of control....

Also, why appearance of someone has to be important with its theme? Are you serious?

Jesus christ this sexism bullshit is REALLY getting out of controll...

Señor KarthusAug 16, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=vgnG3WYN,comment-id=0010000b0001,timestamp=2015-08-16T08:13:08.355+0000)

Much objefication, such sexist. Much young, such goodlooking. Much boobs, such sexy.

This sexism bullshit is getting out of control....

Also, why appearance of someone has to be important with its theme? Are you serious?

Jesus christ this sexism bullshit is REALLY getting out of controll...

None of them are human or human like. Fail. Now tell me which one of the rest of human champions is not over sexualized with revealing clothes (or no clothes at all), perfect bodyes, focus on breasts and butt... Stop being a misogynist.

Dextix LTAug 16, 201510 votes

Off the top of my head? Annie Diana Kalista Quinn Jinx

Neither of these are sexualized, have revealing clothes and focus on breasts, and some of those bodies are faaaaar from perfect.

So, stop being a feminazi, which just searches for troubles and "justice" everywhere.

Im not saying that there shouldnt be more diversity, i agree with that statement. But please refrain from lies. There ARE champions which are not objectified and there is quite the number of them.

RiotBioluminescenceAug 16, 201534 votes

I upvoted this. Now, I may be overthinking this, but I'd want to be super careful if the champ team came up with a concept that also happened to be an old woman. A lot of the time, when people think "old lady" they get a mixture of vibes or stereotypes:

Evil witch
Untrustworthy hag
Sickly/dying crone
Kindly granny
Doddering/harmless old biddy
Gossipping/meddling matriarch

Basically, they split into two camps - untrustworthy and malicious witch/hag, and the harmless and mostly ineffectual grandmother type. Neither of these are particularly healthy stereotypes and not usually something people aspire to be (or play). I wouldn't suggest for a second that the champs team would fall into such easy pitfalls if they came up with one, but I am aware of the worry that ageism, and some (particularly Western) cultures often equate youth with good, and old with bad.

Consider me selfish, but I'd like if whatever the next aged champ we create (that people obviously identify as being visibly aged - Lulu and Lissandra need not apply) to be something that is seen as not only powerful as all champs are, but a force for good. That might needlessly limit the options, and I know that many here would really love to get their teeth into playing a full-on wicked Baba Yaga crone (I know I would!) but I would like at least one supernaturally awesome and aspirational old lady before we give the world another example of the examples above.

(Characters like Super Gran, Professor Minerva McGonagall, and LoK-era Toph Bei Fong, are three cliche-busting examples. God, it's been a long time since I thought about Super Gran...)

No Good DeedAug 16, 20154 votes

Don't forget Granny Weatherwax from Terry Pratchet's Diskworld! All sorts of anti-cliche, and yet strangely right in there with the tropes...

RiotBioluminescenceAug 16, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget Granny Weatherwax from Terry Pratchet's Diskworld! All sorts of anti-cliche, and yet strangely right in there with the tropes...

Good point. She wears almost all of the tropes as it suits her. She is secretly a kindly granny, and (much to her denial) a meddling matriarch. To those that would oppose her, she's equal parts evil witch and untrustworthy hag. And best of luck to you if you are foolish enough to be taken in by her harmless old lady act.

YormaughmAug 16, 20156 votes

Fucking THANK YOU for actually addressing the point of this thread.

The very first point of conversation that should have happened here is "oh so you want an old lady champion? What would you think she should do and how can she be unique in League of Legends?"

Instead Meddler and probably 85% of the people in this thread got baited into this stupid conversation about sexualization which is completely irrelevant and unrelated, except to say that "literally nobody finds old ladies sexy" which is not actually true (old men who are married to them probably find them sexy for example,) but even if it were, has nothing to do with why this thread exists. Anybody participating in that conversation is hijacking this thread for their own agenda, whether it's pro or con "female sexualization." That is just blatantly NOT what this thread is for.

You make good points about how there's not very many archetypes that "old ladies" fall into, they really are just the ones you mentioned, and honestly, if it's between good witch/bad witch, and you want to ask what a good witch looks like, I think sadly you already have that champion: Lulu.

Lulu fits perfectly into the "good witch" archetype, she has witch-like nature-affinity (she has a sprite [nature spirit] that follows her around like a familiar) and is more about being harmlessly mischievous than actually combative. Some of this is coming from memory since I haven't looked at the old lore in a long time but she's either from or lives currently, or occasionally travels to this place called "the glade" right? That seems like some sort of Legend-esque land of raw natural magic. Lulu has a happy-go-lucky personality that is completely carefree. She says things that indicate that she has no worries in life and messes with people in funny ways (like polymorphing them temporarily, whether it be into a harmless forest critter, or making them huge) to maybe send the message that these warmongers need to lighten up sometimes. One can't help but get the feeling that Lulu is actually capable of immense displays of destructive power, but she chooses not to use her magic that way because she's more of a Chaotic Good nature.

Now I say all this to basically just say that the "good witch" archetype is unfortunately already in the game and it doesn't belong to "an old woman champion." I mean, maybe you could make a "granny Lulu" skin and people might buy it, but it seems like if we do want an "old lady" champ, she might have to fit into more of the "evil witch/baba yaga" archetype, unless someone can come up with another in-context role for an old woman to play in League of Legends.

Now the other point that I started to make at the very beginning was about what the champions abilities are. Believe me, I know that in a competitive setting, aesthetic is important but it's not the be all end all for everyone playing the game, and the more competitive you are the less you care. If the champion has abilities that are really good, she will get played no matter what she looks like. So the discussion should really be more about what the character should do, than what they should look like. In the end it's the thing that matters the most, and it honestly bothers me to see so much discussion about the other, far less important issues.

Aatrox HerselfAug 16, 201526 votes

The oldest one is Lulu... She is thousands of years old.

AuryielAug 16, 201511 votes

Lissandra Morgana Kayle Soraka

MarciaAug 16, 201523 votes

I'm all for adding an older female champion to the roster. That is, as long as it's done in a way that makes sense with her character.

neoporterAug 16, 201520 votes

Lissandra lived under the watchers.

Blade of JusticAug 16, 201517 votes

Badass old lady?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UfTROGEbL._SX342_.jpg

Yes please.

TaarkiAug 16, 201517 votes

CRAZY CAT LADY! She could throw cats at you and depending on what Cat you use (Q,W,E,R) they would have different effects.

Weiner the PoohAug 16, 20159 votes

What if yorick got that as a skin?

ArbiterOfTruthAug 16, 201528 votes

http://lolskinconcepts.com/wp-content/uploads/yorick_lg_by_slowgun9-d6lad6d-900x533.png

Baby GhoulAug 16, 201515 votes

None of the female champions that have lore that claim they are ancient look that old. They barely could pass for late 20s, so that is not old. They don't show signs of age like some of the male champions do who are older than most. Riot should step out of that mold more often than they do, and this would be a great chance.

Who wouldn't want to destroy everyone as an elderly woman? I think it would be a nice addition if done correctly.

John BerserkAug 16, 201515 votes

When I think of a cool "old lady champion", I think of someone like Flemeth from Dragon Age.

http://orig00.deviantart.net/9d96/f/2012/204/d/2/da2_flemeth_1_by_chicksaw2002-d58bbui.jpg

An older woman who is a powerful mage of some kind, someone who's been around for quite some time, with more battle experience than most champions have life experience.

RiotMeddlerAug 16, 201524 votes

Yeah, to me Flemeth's a good example of an older character who's more than just elderly. She's an extremely powerful mage/shapeshifter, with uncertain motivations from the player's point of view and a pretty distinct personality. She is really old (unnaturally so in fact), and that's an important part of her backstory in some regards, but it's not her entire character.

Maximum ZileanAug 16, 201511 votes

For an old lady type champion, I can't help but think of an old curse throwing Hag champion. Could make an interesting full-on debuff type support. Throwing curses around to enemy champions.

Sassmast3rAug 16, 20159 votes

IS Kalista NOT OLD ENOUGH FOR YOU HM?

Ironclad DragonAug 16, 20158 votes

Moreover, we don't have an aged champion. Plenty of immortal ancients, but hardly any champion who's feeling the effects of age. I sort of wish Xin Zhao was this in his default skin; a former gladiator who's growing old in service to Demacia. His age might be catching up with him, but he can still kick someone's ass if need be.

gubigubiAug 16, 20157 votes

Leblanc Lissandra Anivia Are all pretty old

But you are talking female Zilean type stuff I am guessing.

I think someone similar to this would be pretty fun. http://33.media.tumblr.com/96da55a8de612824a281a89fe2e64422/tumblr_inline_myvvl6ikcm1r4j8j1.gif

Nikushimi ZeroSep 16, 20156 votes

In theory and somewhat true....we do have old lady champions. Just not old LOOKING champions.

Anivia Kalista Soraka Zyra

All of those champions are "Technically" old ladies. They just don't look old.

Anivia is an ancient cryo phoenix.

Kalista is also an ancient being. One from an age long past.

Soraka, a celestial being is also ancient in terms of age, but looks forever young.

Zyra is also an ancient being.

So, I mean we DO have old lady champions. Just not....you know, old LOOKING lady champions.

I wanted to put Syndra on this list, but I heard that she was 16 somewhere? Like wut. Maybe that source was just being stupid. Anyone know how old Syndra is? I had thought she was maybe like 60 or older since it never specifies when she went to be taught her magic and when she killed her mentor. So, if she is older than whatever that person said then yeah. Her too.