PSA: You shouldn't negotiate with champion select terrorists. Here is why:

HalcyonDweller·Sep 11, 2017·177 votes·9,633 views

They are usually just bluffing to try to make somebody give them what they want. Most of the time they are spineless little shits who won't actually risk doing anything in-game to get themselves banned.
They lose LP if no one trades with them, so they're even more likely to dodge than you are. Simple as that, if they screw themselves and their team by taking a troll-pick or doubling up on a position with an ally, they suffer the consequences too. And they don't want those consequences, otherwise they wouldn't be playing ranked.
Dodging or giving in to a demanded role swap reinforces their bad behavior and will make them more likely to do it in the future. Don't give them the satisfaction. Don't help them.
Dodges are already really limited. That player can't afford to dodge frequently. Which is why they are trying to force you to do it instead of them. If you do not comply, then they are forced to use their dodge and risk facing a queue penalty. Their dodges are a lot more limited than you think. And you can stop their bad behavior dead in its tracks if you force them to give up their own dodge.

#Join the cause. Stop the hostage takers. Together we can put the little shitlets in their places.

EDIT 1: Credit goes to SanKakU for inspiring me to write this post in the first place.

{quoted}

193 Comments

SlythionSep 11, 201770 votes

I remember one time a dude decided to duo mid with me over going adc because I wouldn't give it up. I may have lost the game but damn, it was satisfying seeing that 9x report on the dude with the notification that a player I recently reported was punished

10/10 would do it again

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 201723 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

#feelsgoodman

Handin Out NapsSep 11, 201727 votes

My favorite is when you are playing a random solo q game and one guy decides to troll. But no one gives a shit and everyone decides to troll with him. The good ol "We aren't stuck with you, you are stuck with us" tactic.

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 20175 votes

Haha nice! ;P

OHminusSep 12, 20175 votes

I remember one time where one time a guy instalocked yi jungle when I was given the role. So I picked Syndra and started W.

ThilmerSep 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

My favorite is when you are playing a random solo q game and one guy decides to troll. But no one gives a shit and everyone decides to troll with him. The good ol "We aren't stuck with you, you are stuck with us" tactic.

I carried a game once with Brand ADC because of this. XD

KoKobotoSep 11, 201718 votes

#I WILL NOT BE A VICTIM.

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 201717 votes

Thanks? I can't tell if this is in support or opposition to the OP.

MelledoneusSep 12, 20175 votes

Yes.

Cornerstone1Sep 11, 201712 votes

I always say something to the affect,

"just report him at the end of game summary."

90% dodge at that point, and I WILL report him if it gets to the game, whether he follows through with his threat or not. It is harassment, even if he shapes up in game.

Jayce TopSep 12, 201710 votes

Can someone please tell me what PSA stands for.

Google says it means: 'Prostate-specific antigen', which I am certain is not what you mean.

DecrendoSep 12, 201710 votes

public service announcement

Starcraft243verSep 12, 20179 votes

He definitely meant that. What's the problem exactly ?

MysterQSep 11, 20179 votes

Except when they do troll it leaves a terrible taste. I am not sure I want to be the "altruistic" justice caring guy to take that chance.

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 201734 votes

You don't have to be a saint to do the right thing. It is common sense. The person thinks that if they troll their teammates will dodge for them. If you don't dodge, then they won't get what they want, and they will have to re-evaluate that belief.

If you instead acquiesce to them and do what they want, they will just think, "Hey that worked! I can probably do it again and get the same results :D"

Do you see how this only makes it worse?

It may suck to have a terrible game with someone who trolls, but players who do that are not allowed to stay in the community for very long. Sticking through the game so that you can report them afterwards is (long term) much more effective at removing toxicity from the game, it's community and your matches.

That 'instant-gratification' you get from dodging and not playing with that player won't do you any good if that player (and many others) continue doing that. You're more likely to run into it again and face the same problem. Thus it is better to not dodge and help to either repair the player's behavior or get them banned from the community.

MysterQSep 11, 20176 votes

If it is SUCH a problem, Riot should find a way to fix it without having other innocent people suffer for it.

Again, it would be Justice for the greater good of the community for us 4 to sit through it. But I will say I would rather not and Riot should just fix it.

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 201719 votes

Yes, Riot should fix it. But it's a complicated issue, and many of the potential solutions have abuse cases. If you can think of ideas that might work to solve the problem then by all means, I'm happy to discuss them!

I hate to drive a wedge between us, but the truth of the matter remains. If you do what the hostage taker wants, then you are contributing to the problem.

If the majority of players stop dodging, then the hostage takers would stop, because their behavior would not be helping them to accomplish what they want.

Douglas FunnieSep 11, 20171 votes

It's not a complicated issue. Just ban champ select trolls. Easy....

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 201720 votes

'What to do about it' is not what is complicated. How to accomplish it effectively is what is complicated.

You have to protect solo players from being harassed or falsely punished by groups, and you have to avoid enforcing the meta. Despite needing to protect against these things, you still need to empower players to deal with or escape trolls when they encounter them.

Like I said, what is right and good is not the question. The question resides with how we accomplish the goal without compromising the underlying values of fairness and fun.

ChermorgSep 11, 20175 votes

How do you tell if they're trolling or just abrasive?

Power MacSep 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes, Riot should fix it. But it's a complicated issue, and many of the potential solutions have abuse cases. If you can think of ideas that might work to solve the problem then by all means, I'm happy to discuss them!

I hate to drive a wedge between us, but the truth of the matter remains. If you do what the hostage taker wants, then you are contributing to the problem.

If the majority of players stop dodging, then the hostage takers would stop, because their behavior would not be helping them to accomplish what they want.

Well, the solution that's usually prospected is the possibility to unanimously ban a troll; 4 votes should decently warrant the legitimacy of the action (it would be almost impossible to get 4 real votes if you're just playing an off-meta but still non-troll pick). If I were to design this banning system, I'd rule that such a "ban" should have no immediate consequences on the banned player. But if this happens, say, more than two-three times in a definite timespan (one, two months?), the aforementioned player would face a punishment (low priority ranked queue or, even better, a temporary ban from ranked games). If a player is banned again in the champ selection after having received two temporary bans in the previous months, he shall earn a full year ban from ranked games. What do you think about it?

HalcyonDwellerSep 12, 20171 votes

I appreciate and agree with most of your idea here. It looks really good on paper, the only tweaks I'd add would be these:

Instead of implementing punishment at the stage when this event has occurred two-three times, have a Rioter review the case.
Punish the other 4 players if the event occurred because they simply didn't like the other player's champion choice.

Players should not be punished for going off-meta, rather they should be punished for trolling or for harassing their teammates. If a player fails to communicate effectively with their teammates about their own or their teammate's off-meta pick then maybe they need a nudge in the right direction, or some guides on how to communicate without getting into fights, but certainly not punishment just for going off-meta.

But we would need a system in place (possibly human review like I suggested above) to ensure that we can tell what exactly happened and whether anybody is in the wrong.

Basically, identify what the problems are (trolling, harassment, or simple miscommunications) and then provide guides, punishments or pardons as needed based upon the circumstances.

Power MacSep 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I appreciate and agree with most of your idea here. It looks really good on paper, the only tweaks I'd add would be these:

Instead of implementing punishment at the stage when this event has occurred two-three times, have a Rioter review the case.

Punish the other 4 players if the event occurred because they simply didn't like the other player's champion choice.

Players should not be punished for going off-meta, rather they should be punished for trolling or for harassing their teammates. If a player fails to communicate effectively with their teammates about their own or their teammate's off-meta pick then maybe they need a nudge in the right direction, or some guides on how to communicate without getting into fights, but certainly not punishment just for going off-meta.

But we would need a system in place (possibly human review like I suggested above) to ensure that we can tell what exactly happened and whether anybody is in the wrong.

Basically, identify what the problems are (trolling, harassment, or simple miscommunications) and then provide guides, punishments or pardons as needed based upon the circumstances.

I acknowledge your corrections are necessary, especially the second one: rioters already analyse a lot of reports, so this is feasible with a little more work on their side. Nevertheless, I believe it could be difficult to prove that the 4 players banned him unlawfully; the difference between a heavily off-meta pick and a troll pick is sometimes very thin, and the presuppositions of the banning system I imagined is that it's rather difficult to find 4 mean players who will agree to ban somebody for a pick which is just off-meta. I absolutely agree with everything you wrote, but I'm afraid that taking too many precautions could lead to an effective but way too slow anti-trolling system. Sure, such reports would be prioritised, which would be per se a great achievement, and finally the champ selection phase flamings and trollings would acquire some value. Rioters would have to work twice as much to analyse such a huge amount of games details, though, and somebody could object that all this can be already be done with the current report system. This is why I believe that, even if drastically temperated, a fast banning system should be implemented. Let's imagine to fuse our ideas, with yours adopted as a whole, mine mitigated (say, a slow queue punishment after 10/20 bans: this would ensure that if somebody gets so many reports, he couldn't possibly just be playing off-meta!).

HalcyonDwellerSep 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Power Mac,realm=EUW,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Mzxlx7W5,comment-id=0002000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-09-13T16:34:59.956+0000)

I acknowledge your corrections are necessary, especially the second one: rioters already analyse a lot of reports, so this is feasible with a little more work on their side. Nevertheless, I believe it could be difficult to prove that the 4 players banned him unlawfully; the difference between a heavily off-meta pick and a troll pick is sometimes very thin, and the presuppositions of the banning system I imagined is that it's rather difficult to find 4 mean players who will agree to ban somebody for a pick which is just off-meta.

In solo play you are correct, it is probably highly unlikely that all 4 other players would gang up on and unjustly vote out an off-meta pick. But in circumstances where 4 people queue up together, protections need to be put in place for the solo player that will get matched with them.

I absolutely agree with everything you wrote, but I'm afraid that taking too many precautions could lead to an effective but way too slow anti-trolling system. Sure, such reports would be prioritised, which would be per se a great achievement, and finally the champ selection phase flamings and trollings would acquire some value. Rioters would have to work twice as much to analyse such a huge amount of games details, though, and somebody could object that all this can be already be done with the current report system. This is why I believe that, even if drastically temperated, a fast banning system should be implemented. Let's imagine to fuse our ideas, with yours adopted as a whole, mine mitigated (say, a slow queue punishment after 10/20 bans: this would ensure that if somebody gets so many reports, he couldn't possibly just be playing off-meta!).

I see what you mean here, and that does sound like a really good idea. Thanks for exchanging thoughts here with me, I enjoyed discussing possible solutions!

Power MacSep 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

In solo play you are correct, it is probably highly unlikely that all 4 other players would gang up on and unjustly vote out an off-meta pick. But in circumstances where 4 people queue up together, protections need to be put in place for the solo player that will get matched with them.

I see what you mean here, and that does sound like a really good idea. Thanks for exchanging thoughts here with me, I enjoyed discussing possible solutions!

That's right, such system should be implemented only for Solo/Duo, in case of premades it could be dangerous and untrustworthy: with teams, it's just better to only apply your idea. Thanks to you for the thread and for coping with my English hahahaha.

HalcyonDwellerSep 14, 20172 votes

Thanks for understanding! And no problem at all :) I didn't even notice if you have any sort of difficulty using English.

A Bad NasusSep 12, 20177 votes

An easier solution that Riot can take to inhibit these problems is somewhat simple. These champ select terrorists usually have one thing in common, they use the chat to communicate their evil plans. If a system were put in place that could trigger from their common phrases and other associated behaviors these terrorists share they could be heavily penalized and removed from the queue for a time leading up to a permaban if they persist. The rest of the lobby would then be put back into the queue.

There are tradeoffs to this system, but it directly addresses the issue.

MonkeyMadnessSep 12, 20176 votes

Here's the problem: smurf accounts. Half of the people that regularly do this are (or at least claim to be) on some form of alternate account. There is no way to know if they actually care about their rank as you assume, and this is the reason they are able to be so effective in their hostage-taking. This is why I fully support an instant and permanent ban of any account that admits to being a smurf in order to perform any kind of strong-arm technique either in-game or in champ select, but of course, Riot would rather ban people for getting pissed of at trolls than the trolls themselves, so ya...

HalcyonDwellerSep 12, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Here's the problem: smurf accounts. Half of the people that regularly do this are (or at least claim to be) on some form of alternate account. There is no way to know if they actually care about their rank as you assume, and this is the reason they are able to be so effective in their hostage-taking. This is why I fully support an instant and permanent ban of any account that admits to being a smurf in order to perform any kind of strong-arm technique either in-game or in champ select, but of course, Riot would rather ban people for getting pissed of at trolls than the trolls themselves, so ya...

I'm with you there. I wish Riot were a lot harsher towards players who claimed that they "don't care because I have 5 other accounts." and similar shit. People like that are dirtbags. They break the rules and flaunt it in players' faces like they are actually immune or something.

100% on your side with this issue.

ThilmerSep 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Here's the problem: smurf accounts. Half of the people that regularly do this are (or at least claim to be) on some form of alternate account. There is no way to know if they actually care about their rank as you assume, and this is the reason they are able to be so effective in their hostage-taking. This is why I fully support an instant and permanent ban of any account that admits to being a smurf in order to perform any kind of strong-arm technique either in-game or in champ select, but of course, Riot would rather ban people for getting pissed of at trolls than the trolls themselves, so ya...

Smurfs should have been regulated already. Most trolls don't care about a permaban because they have another 10 accounts.

MonkeyMadnessSep 12, 20172 votes

And tbh even when they behave the still tend to ruin games. It's really not fun when you are trying to climb through gold or silver and run into a diamond+ smurf that goes 10/0 in the first 5 minutes and proceeds to solo carry a game utterly unopposed.

La Belle SauvageSep 11, 20175 votes

Agree.

GlîtchySep 12, 20175 votes

I remember one guy duo jg'd because I wanted to do jg Hecarim (I was the original jg in select)

But he wanted to do jg Taric, when I refused to trade, he'd go around stealing camps I had yet to do, afterwards EVERYONE reported (even enemy team), I was notified a player was punished then saw him on forums bitching about being unfairly perma-banned.

The opposing team gave us the win because they didn't want to win like that. (It was before flex and solo/duo were separate)

HalcyonDwellerSep 12, 20172 votes

Damn, it sucks you had to deal with that player, but congrats for getting them dealt with. Serves them right for trying to steal your role!

It's so awesome to get enemy teams like that, who will help your team deal with the troll.

GlîtchySep 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Damn, it sucks you had to deal with that player, but congrats for getting them dealt with. Serves them right for trying to steal your role!

It's so awesome to get enemy teams like that, who will help your team deal with the troll.

It was cool that the enemy threw the match because they were the kinda premade who want fair and even chance games

wyvern011976Sep 11, 20174 votes

A simple voting system for the champ select screen would be great. If you get a troll then the others just vote them out. Then another player fills the slot. They get a 3 minute cool down that escalates. I can tell you most of my bad games start in champ select. The voting means even if they are duo you can override them.

HammermancerSep 11, 20179 votes

"Shit i got filled, yo vote me out i suck at jg"

"Aight bro"

Hello I am BirdSep 12, 20171 votes

"Gets a 60 minute queue wait because this is your 5th time in an hour"

HammermancerSep 12, 20176 votes

"This guy wants to play garen, garen isn't meta, ban him"

SdarsSep 12, 20174 votes

I just dodge if no1 else does and report to riot support.

rtbf225618241Sep 12, 20174 votes

Honestly, this game is nearly 10 years old. Learn to play at least two champions in each role! Fuck's sake, people.

Ofcourse i'm talking to the dipshits that troll or flame cuz they didn't get their role.

CrazFight Sep 11, 20172 votes

Will get downvoted because im a bad person dont hate me - When I get into champ select and a friend then msg's me he wants to duo , I pull the "Fuck you mid im taking your role get over it" move and then proceed to pick a mid champ. 90% of the time they dodge. The other 10 % I end up having to do some crazy jungle pick....

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 201718 votes

That is terrible and you shouldn't do it. You know that you should dodge and wait the queue timer instead of trolling your assigned teammates. It's not a long timer if you haven't been abusing the system. Just don't be shitty to people.

ChuShoeSep 11, 20174 votes

If you two are really friends, you'll wait out the qeue ban together.

just a thought.

Hello I am BirdSep 12, 20171 votes

uh no As much as I'd love to pull the whole "friendship forever" thing, most people are just gonna play a match without you. If you have a 5 minute timer, that's 5 minutes that I could spend waiting for the queue or actually playing League. I don't get a whole lot of leisure time to play League, so when I play, I'm not here to wait 5 minutes because my best friend is in champ select and tried to do the "noble" thing.

Not to say that it isn't a shitty thing to do, but saying that "tru friends will stick by u no matter what" only applies to some cases of friends. Others understand that each other's schedules are hectic as fuck and they just wanna sit down and play League.

ChuShoeSep 12, 20175 votes

Then you two aren't really friends, and you should stop pretending that you're friends.

My friends wait out qeue times with me, even when I was dcing every game and got leaverbuster 5 minute low priority qeues because of my terrible internet connection, accompanied with a toaster for a computer, they waited through those WITH me. When it happened to them, or we dodged because we wanted to play with them, we WAITED out the qeue times together.

so I'll say it again, if you value getting into a game 5 minutes sooner than it would take to wait for your friend, over waiting 5 minutes (which can easily be spent getting some water, taking, etc.) then you aren't really friends

If you're really friends, you'll wait together, because that's what real friends do.

Hello I am BirdSep 12, 20171 votes

lol @ the downvotes. What I was trying to say in my comment was that not every pair of friends are alike. Me and my friend have been friends for 15 years, and while team doesn't automatically equal friendship, we're still very close and talk to each other daily. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna wait for him to wait out a timer, because that's time I could spend doing something more productive in my real life, and I'd be offended if he did the same for me. There will be times where schedules allow that I would wait out the timer for him because I was playing League to specifically play with HIM, but generally, if I'm playing League it's just to play League, and it doesn't matter if I play with friends or not. That's just who I am and that's just who he is. Sorry if what I was saying came across as brash.

MelledoneusSep 12, 20174 votes

Let's be honest: How much can you actually do in 5 minutes IRL?

Hello I am BirdSep 12, 20171 votes

All the more time to study for college dude. Or sleep. Both very important things that I don't do enough of. 5 minutes adds up when I have to do it a lot. It may not be every time but 4 times is 20 minutes in a week that I could have spent doing something else

######Also lol @ more downvotes

MelledoneusSep 12, 20174 votes

So you're saying you'd rather be a complete jerk for 5 minutes of sleep.

I see where your priorities lie now. Good day to you.