Games are too short, and snowball too quickly.

HalcyonDweller·Aug 30, 2017·103 votes·5,143 views

Discuss in the comments why you think this is, and propose solutions if you have ideas to solve it.

Please remain civil.

EDIT: It was brought to my attention that I offered a biased stance that offered little room for people who disagree with the title to respond. This was unintentional, and I apologize. I did not mean to shut out people of differing opinions.

If you disagree, you are of course welcome to respond here as well. IMO it's not a healthy discussion if half the opinions are dismissed. So please, do speak up - I value your opinion too!

148 Comments

Darkdemon653Aug 30, 201733 votes

Remove gold bonus for first tower
Have Rift Herald do something else
Normalize dragons (they should all have the same power level)
Remove minion bonuses for tower differentials
Make towers significantly stronger
Make Baron significantly stronger

In exchange, I wouldn't mind losing the experience bonuses for players who are behind.

HalcyonDwellerAug 30, 20179 votes

I'm with you on most of those.

Removing first tower gold bonus would be a good change.

Rift Herald I don't mind as-is, but maybe it shouldn't be quite as strong. Perhaps tackling a turret should self-damage the Herald a % of the turret's max health instead of a % of the Herald's current health. This would also punish players for using it on turrets that are already low health, a poor or incorrect use case in the first place.

I agree drakes should be normalized. One idea to do so would be to make them have moments of power instead of general stat boosts.

I'm not sure about the minion bonuses for tower differentials, I don't really have an opinion for or against so I will abstain from making any claims or suggestions here.

I agree, towers need to do more to protect players from dives. Maybe Tower's should scale based on the circumstances. Be weaker when less enemies are near, while stronger with more. This would balance for situations where someone gets 4-man dove.

By make Baron stronger, do you mean harder to kill or grant a stronger buff?

The LexerAug 31, 20172 votes

I would definitely agree on removing minion bonuses and making towers stronger. Rift Herald feels like it needs some other purpose anyway. Otherwise I think the others are fine

DunklaAlfabetAug 31, 20174 votes

I would also slow down the gold per second... it was increased a while ago, and players who haven't even farmed can access the items by CSing poorly. That shut down gold? Killer's only if you ask me, as it was once before. I do disagree about the "Baron stronger", removing the global gold and reducing gold per second you are forcing the players to CS better, and there's less gold available, effectively making everything else stronger because your items are not that powerful. Anyway... I loved Season 3, it should have remained like that if you ask me!.

FefnilAug 31, 20173 votes

Actually, reducing ambient gold increases snowballing, it doesn't reduce it. Think about this: let's say we get 1 gold per second, and killing someone gives you 500 gold. If I do it, how big is my boost? It's very big, since I earn 8 minutes worth of gold. If, instead, we get 100 gold per second, and killing someone still gives you 500 gold, is it still the same boost as before? Definitely not, since I only get 5 seconds worth of gold. It's pretty much a waste of time. So more ambient gold actually helps who's behind more than who's ahead.

TequilaZombieAug 31, 20174 votes

As a side effect, it helps to end games faster by allowing people to reach late game faster.

PePsiLemoNNAug 31, 20171 votes

Remove minion bonuses for tower differentials

Can people understand that the winning side minions are stronger so the ones winning can't just freeze forever and make the game impossible to come back from?

Darkdemon653Aug 31, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Can people understand that the winning side minions are stronger so the ones winning can't just freeze forever and make the game impossible to come back from?

Except that's not what happens and it's not why Riot made the change

Instead of allowing the enemy team to farm more easily/safely, it means the team has to send someone to a side lane more often, allowing the team that's ahead to have an easier time continuing to push. Riot made this change specifically to allow the team that's already ahead to get a bigger advantage, though it did come with other changes that helped lessen snowballing.

HeeroTXAug 31, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Can people understand that the winning side minions are stronger so the ones winning can't just freeze forever and make the game impossible to come back from?

I'll repeat this as many times as necessary: Even if you believe this as a THEORY (I feel there's room for debate), it doesn't function this way in PRACTICE because of how weak turrets are. Instead, it pushes the wave to the losing team's turret and then the leading team can easily dive the losing team. The problem with the "farm safely under turret" part is that turrets are so weak that they're not "safe".

(ie. "pushing" is just as problematic as "freezing" since farming under turret is no safer than trying to cs out in the middle of the lane)

GayFluffyUnicornAug 31, 20173 votes

You know what, i actually believe the catch up exp is one of the reasons why botlane feels so overwhelming. Few seasons ago it was not unlikely for botlane to be 3-4 levels behind the solo laners. Now i rarely find a game where i'm not the same level as botlane maximum a level above.

KoKobotoAug 30, 201710 votes

Patch 5.22 (the "marksmen" patch) really screwed up a ton of stuff.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-522-notes#patch-mana-and-mana-regen-adjustments

Champions don't need to worry about mana early unless you're an idiot and don't know mana management. Makes it so all champions can just blow spells around everywhere with less repercussions.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-522-notes#patch-ambient-gold http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-522-notes#patch-minions http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-522-notes#patch-marksman-itemization http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-522-notes#patch-kill-gold-rewards

Everyone gets richer sooner. This, in tandem with the cheaper marksmen items, makes marksmen scale that much easier. Minions give more gold early making it even easier to get early items. Global kill gold?: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Qy7FEPhe-is-it-me-or-do-ad-late-game-hyper-carries-have-a-lot-of-early-game-pressure

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-522-notes#patch-turrets Turrets nerfed. This speaks for itself... 100 armor and magic resist to NOTHING. First tower gold as well.

Sire HippingtonAug 30, 20179 votes

There are many factors all comeing together.

Gold-flow(increased tower gold, shutdowngold changes and assist-streaks removed all in S6, Tower FB)
Dragons beeing a permanent advantage that the loosing team can't catch up with
Riftherald
damagecreep punishing mistakes harder and causeing objectives to drop in seconds
Vision beeing gutted since S6, the low amount of wards makes mapcontroll and thus towers snowball extra hard
lack of vision makes early ganking junglers also extra powerfull, as it's near impossible to keep even one ward up while good junglers usually have 3+ paths per lane
Plants giving extra power to the team in controll. IF you have lanecontroll, you can push in and run into the river for extra sustain, blastcones open up your pathing and vision plants just give even more vision controll to the team that already ahs map controll. Rift-scuttler also contributes a bit here.
minons getting stronger for the winning team
Itemisation beeing shifted towards absurd1-2 item powerspikes, and for some classes even beeign entiery focused on early-mid with high cost-efficiency and low slot-efficiency
Champdesign focuseing to hard on strengths/weaknesses and strategic niche. This one might seem strange at first, but it's a major factor. With high empathis on strengths and weaknesses, champs either tend to be very binary in-game with a massive difference between best and worstcase scenario, and usually the winning team can force fights around their strengths while playing around the weaknesses of their oponnents, so the actuall power-advantage of the team in controll, especially in high elos, is much higher than the raw gold/xp lead. But mostly, that heavily niche oriented design causes many champs to be/get hardcountered, so many games are already desided in champ select, especially in soloQ, which then obviously translates into stomps. It also leads to a somewhat stale pro meta, as pros will default to the save pics that don't get easily countered in their first rotations so many champs can only be used as lastpicks to avoid counters. Heaving strengths/weaknesses and a niche is important, but as with all things, you need to find proper balance. Going to hard on that stuff is just as bad as haveing low profile generalists all over the place, if not worse.

Smooth56Aug 30, 20175 votes

I don't necessarily notice that in gold/platinium elo. Most of my games last at least 30 minutes. But it's true some games end very quick but often if because one team is better than the other one, or the team comp is better. In this case I don't have a problem with the game ending quickly, because it should imo.

KoKobotoAug 30, 201719 votes

It's not that the game ends at 30 minutes; it's that the game is practically decided by 10. Also it's not that games should or should not end quickly; it's that the strategic nature of the game ultimately diminishes when the game is forcefully shortened. It naturally means champions are stronger than they would normally be at certain time points while others are weaker. In other words stomps and few limitations on what champions can and cannot do.

chipndip1Aug 30, 20175 votes

It's not that it's decided by 10 minutes.

It's that people magically believe that doing shit like going all squish, no peel is a logically sound team comp...THEN lose with no way back into the game. Not every team comp is equal. Sometimes you deserve to get your shit stomped. The game shouldn't hold your hand until 40 minutes, otherwise early game leads and fights won't matter like they didn't in season 5.

KoKobotoAug 30, 20173 votes

Tanks are in the meta now so I don't know what you're going on about, people play tanks more often now.

Stomps should be a thing for the more skilled team. There's a consensus that stomps are happening way to frequently when you make only one mistake early.

chipndip1Aug 30, 201710 votes

In my last two "anti-decay" low/mid Diamond elo matches, I didn't have a single actual tank on my team. Cost me the first match heavy cause no one could actually start a team fight in our favor vs. an insanely fed Irelia, a Rakan, and a J4.

Stomps DO happen for the more skilled team...but that's not just a skill thing, alone. This game is part skill, part teamwork, part strategy. If I have no front line, and an enemy diver gets fed, who stops the diver? If I have no ap, and an enemy tank gets fed, who stops the armor-stacking tank in a reasonable time frame? If we don't group, and an enemy skirmisher like Yi or Yasuo gets fed, how do you think we're gonna stop that guy? People choose not to think when they play this game. It isn't the game's fault. It's yours. Think and urge your allies to think. Those types of things will either close out games faster or extend them accordingly.

KoKobotoAug 31, 20171 votes

Dang sucks to be you than. Hope you get some teams that know wtf they're doing lool

Still stomps are stomps. Enemy tank gets ahead, they're that much tankier, they're pulling off that much more engages, and it's that much easier with the more gold they got.

chipndip1Aug 31, 20172 votes

Don't worry, we won the second one. We had Draven, who cashed out quite well before dying, and a Warwick popping off.

KaìjuAug 31, 20175 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/qHKeRNqa-riot-you-cant-make-games-shorter

This guy makes a great point. Also I can't find it but I'm pretty sure Riot once mentioned they don't like long games because and I shit you not, "Live matches such as Worlds are not fun to attend live when you have five 50 minute games." That's a paraphrase, but either I had a very vivid dream or I remember that as their reason. They changed the game pace for live viewing. But as linked above, that guy nails it. They keep making the game HotS like and it fails because of how long it takes to get gold and levels. If they want quick 25 minute games, increase gold gain and make everyone 4 to 5 items deep at level 14 by 20 minutes. If they keep the current gold and XP rate games will be naturally inclined to be 45 minutes by nature.

MizayaAug 30, 20173 votes

Average game times are down roughly 4 minutes in master/challenger since 2 years ago, but I wonder how much that has to do with 15 min FF being implemented.

RebonackAug 30, 20173 votes

Part of the problem with snowballing is that due to the nature of objectives on Rift, you need some degree of snowballing in order to prevent the game from stalemating in a siege that lasts forever. But getting the level of snowballing just right is really difficult, as we've seen over the years. Sadly, snowballing combined with the lack of team-wide agency inherent to the laning phase leads directly to the rampant toxic behavior we find in League. If someone plays poorly, there's a decent chance you're going to lose and there's nothing you can really do about the lost lane. It makes people feel dis-empowered, so they take out their frustration by flaming the person who's having a bad game.

's why I enjoyed Dominion when we still had it. No snowballing and team-wide agency at all phases of the match. There was very little toxicity since players were too busy trying to win.

HalcyonDwellerAug 30, 20171 votes

I'm with you 100%. Dominion was awesome! I deeply regret that Riot removed it.

RebonackAug 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I'm with you 100%. Dominion was awesome! I deeply regret that Riot removed it.

It was, but alas it didn't fit with Riot's 'Competitive Vision' for League.

Though, if Rift had a Dominion-y (or even Ascension-y) secondary win condition that would allow Riot to ease way back on the game's snowballing elements. Not totally sure what that would look like. Maybe defeating a Dragon makes her fly over to the enemy Nexus and blast it a few times? That would require totally reworking Dragon (again).

Basically, if there was some way to win the game that doesn't require directly assaulting the enemy Nexus but rather controlling some neutral part(s) of the map, then the massive snowballing wouldn't be needed to prevent stalemate.

HalcyonDwellerAug 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

It was, but alas it didn't fit with Riot's 'Competitive Vision' for League.

Though, if Rift had a Dominion-y (or even Ascension-y) secondary win condition that would allow Riot to ease way back on the game's snowballing elements. Not totally sure what that would look like. Maybe defeating a Dragon makes her fly over to the enemy Nexus and blast it a few times? That would require totally reworking Dragon (again).

Basically, if there was some way to win the game that doesn't require directly assaulting the enemy Nexus but rather controlling some neutral part(s) of the map, then the massive snowballing wouldn't be needed to prevent stalemate.

Holy crap that would be really cool actually and it definitely seems like an interesting way to shake up the game! Props for the most unique idea I've seen so far regarding this.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

RainXBladeAug 30, 20173 votes

Remove first tower gold. This is disgusting in itself.
Remove EXP catch-up so that junglers actually have to farm their jungle and not constantly gank over and over again and still be on par with the jungle Yi that never ganked in the first 7 mins of the game and power farmed.
Revert elemental drakes OR..... reduce the chances of a Fire or Ocean Drake spawning so that stat-checking coming from their buffs won't happen that easily.
Make towers harder to dive by:
Increasing their attack speed and/or allow them to ramp up their damage much faster.
Deal a percent of their damage as true damage against minions.
Increase their defenses
Bring back the lasers of the Inhib and Nexus towers.
Overall, reduce damage from all across the champions.

Also Riot, don't balance the game around just the LCS. LCS only covers less than 1% of the community and the pro players' opinions either: don't line up with what the community wants or are too shallow to focus around all the regions and elo's. Maybe both.

CasterGilgameshAug 30, 20173 votes

i would say that wind drake and earth drake are stronger IMO wind is under rated it gives so much map movement so when you have map controls and 1 or 2 wind drags the enemy almost never gets a chance to split push or go to other lanes without being swarmed on.Not to mention earth drag makes the situation with towers and other objectives being taken too fast even worse.Ocean drag is only good early to mid game when being poked is a bigger problem and fire drake only works for champions with crazy good scalings and when its late game having tons of AD or AP

sobi999Aug 31, 20173 votes

You win some and you lose some. Take for example, Challenger players have stomped over many other players to get to where they are. Therefore you can say that not everyone can be challenger or that you are bound to lose some games. So i genuinely think that people not only need to have a mindset of winning but also of enjoying the game as much as possible. This however is not possible if games end way too early and all you do is farm for 10 minutes in lane and then 1 team fight decides the outcome.

Snowball issues

Turrets too weak especially Bot Lasers taken out Rift Herald Baron and dragons so easily killed Damage way too high Always once class being meta and abused

The TrentAug 30, 20172 votes

Most players are low elo and casual aka bronze, silver, and unranked. Most players were complaining that their games were too long. Riot made games shorter. The game mode is intended to be 20-30 minutes long. It even used to say that in the client before u qued up, it might still say it on the current client, idk. Basically, there are no solutions to fix this because it's not a problem, it's intentional.

HalcyonDwellerAug 30, 20173 votes

You've only addressed the shortness of the game. Not the snowball effect.

And it is not fun to snowball or get snowballed against. Most of my games now end either with my team stomping the enemy or the enemy team stomping us. It's not a close match anymore and that takes a lot of the fun and excitement out of it. It is dis-empowering, and creates the feeling like you have less agency over the game.

Also no. Games used to be 30-40 minutes. And that is what the client would say. 20-30 minutes is what it said for dominion. I would know, I've played this game since at least season 2.

The TrentAug 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You've only addressed the shortness of the game. Not the snowball effect.

And it is not fun to snowball or get snowballed against. Most of my games now end either with my team stomping the enemy or the enemy team stomping us. It's not a close match anymore and that takes a lot of the fun and excitement out of it. It is dis-empowering, and creates the feeling like you have less agency over the game.

Also no. Games used to be 30-40 minutes. And that is what the client would say. 20-30 minutes is what it said for dominion. I would know, I've played this game since at least season 2.

I don't think that there is a snowball effect. I've been playing this game since beta and I can assure you that it is much better. I remember things like old jax and riven. Old sion that could literally never die because he went to max hp in one auto and there wasn't much cc to stop him. I think they changed the 30-40 minute thing after like season 5 because that's when they started making things shorter. I remember 30-40 minutes too though. Basically what im saying is that the majority of the people wanted shorter games, a solution to that is snowballing. Snowballing isn't super bad like it used to be. If the 17/0 Ekko situation happens then yeah thats kinda annoying, but it's hard to say that someone who got a score of 17/0 shouldn't win. I'm fine with the current level of snowblaling right now. I still feel like with current support items I could easily kill a 17/0 ekko if I just had my adc and jungler with me. In normals I do understand that there isn't much of a competitive side to it. That's why they're normal games. The majority of players play normal games, so yeah. They kinda wanted that. In ranked if you're low elo I guess it feels really snowbally. I'm gold rn and I played a few games like 2 months ago and it felt just fine. If the enemy gets fed I feel like they deserve to win. There aren't really any release le blanc cases where I feel like they shouldn't have snowballed super extremely hard. It all feels balanced to me. The game is only growing so I'd think that they're going in the right direction.

HalcyonDwellerAug 30, 20173 votes

I upvoted to counter the downvote (EDIT: On your comment). I think it's really childish and dumb when people downvote others simply because they disagree. Votes should be for determining whether or not a post merits attention, rather than a popularity contest.

Now that that is out of the way. I disagree with you somewhat, but I get where you are coming from. Also I do get the sense that League is headed in the right direction overall. Lots of things are better than they were in the past, and things are changing for the better as time progresses.

I guess my main frustration then comes down to matchmaking, why am I getting matched with and against players that are vastly superior or inferior to me in skill?

It's nowhere near as fun to play games when I or my team is so fed that we just stomp the enemy.
And it's miserable to play a game where you or one of your teammates gets beat and the fed enemy spends the rest of the game kicking peoples doors down and knocking their teeth in.

CatastrophicAug 31, 20172 votes

Something I've been thinking about, is that we don't really hate that the games are short, but we hate that they're decided before the nexus is destroyed. So if the game is decided 15-2 at 12 minutes, it will still take till 25 minutes for it to be over. Which is frustrating.

Yordle XayahAug 31, 20172 votes

Here's what I'd really like: Buff Towers

iamthegoatofwarAug 31, 20172 votes

Ok so here's how I look at some of the basics. %max hp damage on everyone now it seems.

Towers are paper due to new dragon and rift herld. Never got a buff to match. Also 1st tower gold...disgusting.

MunqaxusSep 13, 20172 votes

I'm rezing this thread because I'm sick and tire of playing game after game that is lost before you can even surrender. Arams last longer than Summoners Rift right now. I'm frequently seeing games where people have taken 2 towers and pushing the base tower at 7 minutes, that is almost as much time as it takes to select characters and load into the game.

HalcyonDwellerSep 13, 20172 votes

Oh, thanks! Welcome to the discussion :)

I agree :( things snowball way too quickly sometimes. I wish Riot's matchmaking system could learn from the results of matches. The more off-balanced a match is, and the quicker it ends, the more the system should watch out about matching players with and against each other in that way.

GhostOfTsushimaAug 30, 20171 votes

[deleted]

HalcyonDwellerAug 30, 20179 votes

This is not constructive nor helpful. Please note that I asked everyone to remain civil in this discussion. You are not abiding.

GhostOfTsushimaAug 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This is not constructive nor helpful. Please note that I asked everyone to remain civil in this discussion. You are not abiding.

This community is toxic and bad, theres never any positive things going on here

Out of every thousand thread there will be at least one good one

HalcyonDwellerAug 30, 20176 votes

You are entitled to hold that opinion. But please do not antagonize other players that are interested in discussing the topic at hand.

If you want to talk about how people are garbage and they have only themselves to blame, you are welcome to go make your own post. I'd thank you to keep it out of my own post.

GhostOfTsushimaAug 30, 20171 votes

I'm just here watching all the post complaining about "Late comp" and "Early comp"

when it has little to do with comp LMAO

Put 5 diamond player on all 5 late champ "Late comp"

Put 5 goldie on all 5 early champ "Early comp"

the goldie will still get their ass kick just cus of the diamond team having better players

Meaning, whichever team has the better players win, not the damn comp, get it straight

HalcyonDwellerAug 30, 20179 votes

'Mechanical skill' plays a large part in which team will win. that I can understand. Then maybe matchmaking is at fault, since players are getting matched with and against players of vastly differing skill levels.

What do you think?

Spank the FoxAug 30, 20175 votes

Early game champs in League aren't that dominant, or really even a thing anymore.

Any strong early game champion has ~~been neutered~~ their power curve "redistributed" and the only true late game champs still spike ~15 mins.

it just comes down to balanced team comps (tank, source of magic & physical damage, warder/utility) and the team who lacks this has a significantly higher chance at losing. Mechanic for sure, but that point is moot when ranked pits you with other players with similar level of mechanics.

DrCyanideAug 30, 20171 votes

Pick Xerath Ziggs Viktor Anivia Sivir and waveclear for days. Boom, you've extended the game, and in doing so reduced snowballing.

HalcyonDwellerAug 30, 20174 votes

Xerath Ziggs

Done. I already play them. But I don't always feel like playing the same champions over and over again.

I shouldn't be forced to make a choice between either playing a specific champion pool or having a game snowball absurdly. I should have the freedom to play the champions that I enjoy playing.

I do not think this is a solution to the problem. Moreso just an instance of saying, "just deal with it." Which is not really helpful or constructive IMO.

Teridax68Aug 31, 20171 votes

I think it would help if the OP offered its own stance on the topic of discussion, but nonetheless I think this is a conversation worth having. Matches becoming shorter is a very deliberate move by Riot since Season 6, as they've been aiming for quicker matches for a long while now, and their methods of implementing it have all added a degree of snowballing to the game. Minions gaining stats per enemy tower killed are one example, as are builds for certain classes becoming cheaper, and sometimes retaining just as many stats, if not more. As a result, we've ended up in a game state where matches are indeed shorter, but also much snowballier, to the point where the outcome often feels decided within the first few minutes.

To start, I don't think shortening match durations is a bad thing. Having to sit through a single match for 40 minutes can be daunting for many players, and doesn't really work well for people who don't have large chunks of free time all at once. If it were done correctly, I'd completely support shortening the duration of an average Summoner's Rift match, provided it still preserved its early/mid/late structure and its associated dynamics. In this respect, I think Riot is correct in trying to shorten games, and has done so with good intentions.

However, I don't think any of these changes were really the best way to go about it, in large part because of the snowballiness they brought in. I think a large problem currently is that shortening match durations should entail a stat squish, as otherwise stat differences become far too large, far too quickly, yet such a move has not yet been made. It's also a major reason why turrets feel shit, because players very quickly reach health and damage levels that cause them to no longer become a threat. Because of this, I recommend severely reducing stats on many items: tank items have lost significant amounts of stats when their cost was cheapened, and I think the same should be done to AD items, which have become cheaper over time while remaining equal or higher on stats, and AP items desperately need to be made more affordable, even if it means reducing some of their power (look at how clunky Rabadon's is to build now, for example).

Additionally, I'd remove snowball mechanics like the minion pushing bonuses, which are low on clarity and don't really allow comebacks to happen. Similarly, this should probably entail similar reductions in stat and number gains on champions and their kits. If the game is to have faster matches, it cannot simply accelerate the pace at which everyone gets to pre-change levels of power, as that causes any sort of lead to spike way too hard. Riot either needs to reduce the amount of raw stats gained over time, so that matches don't snowball as hard if they become faster, or revert the changes to item costs, minion stats and turrets that pushed for quicker, snowballier matches since Preseason 6.

HalcyonDwellerAug 31, 20172 votes

The original post was intentionally brief and relatively provocative in order to illicit discussion and get people talking with one another about this.

My primary stance on this is that matchmaking fails to effectively match players of similar skill levels. Snowballing is just a symptom of this. Short games are fine, but the way we achieve them right now is un-balanced and un-fun.

On being along for the ride:

When a lane snowballs (either for or against your team) you wind up feeling like you are just along for the ride. It's easy to be top lane for example, and play a skillful game, balanced fun early game trading back and forth with the enemy top laner and jungler, just to find that the whole game is a stomp fest on the rest of the map simply because bottom lane snowballed in one team's favor.

_ _

On snowballing or being snowballed against:

On the other hand when you are the person who snowballs or is snowballed against, you are left with a feeling that the rest of your decisions do not matter as much for the outcome of the game.

For example, when I have an absurdly good game (as in I and my teammates get fed) I get bored and lose interest, and it doesn't feel rewarding to beat my opponents because they've already been muzzled and there isn't as much skill expression in beating them anymore.

For another example, when I have a bad game and get put behind it feels extremely dis-empowering to be unable to do anything to make up for my earlier mistakes.

I don't mind short games if I and other players have a plethora of opportunities to express skill and impact that game, but as things are right now... it does not feel like that is the case.

tldr; Close games are the best. Stomp-fests are boring. Players should be matched more fairly. And players should be able to demonstrate skill and impact the game's outcome throughout the whole match.

Teridax68Aug 31, 20173 votes

This is true, but my point is that shorter games don't have to be more snowbally. Heroes of the Storm, for example, has games that last 20 minutes on average, but also has tremendous comeback potential at all stages, in large part because it was designed from the get-go that way. By contrast, League's original average match duration was about 40 minutes, and merely accelerating all of that has caused champions to jump entire phases of the game ahead of others when they get a lead. Cutting down on the stat advantages these leads bring about would allow for closer games to happen, even if doing so would require a fairly complicated retuning of stats on items, champions and the environment.

You also hit the nail on the head in that, when snowballing gets this harsh, it tends to blot out skill expression in the game, and I think this also comes down to vertical power progression in matches: when a champion gets so many benefits from stats and levels that they essentially become as powerful as two or more of their opponents, they can mess up as much as they want and still get away with it, simply because of that buffer their stat lead gives them. By contrast, a player who's behind can play perfectly and still lose purely because they don't have the items or levels to match up to their opponents. It's the reason why every discussion on a champion's weaknesses or counterplay needs to include "... unless they're fed", and why classes innately prone to snowballing, like assassins, end up feeling horrible to play when behind, as they often cannot even succeed in the very situations they're designed to do well in.

It's because of this correlation between stat gains and snowballiness, and the inverse relationship between snowballiness and skill expression, that I'd be personally in favor of removing a lot of vertical power progression from the game, and only allow certain champions to gain more power as the match goes on: when a player gets a lead in a game like League, that should express itself by moving ever closer to destroying the Nexus via the destruction of structures. Otherwise, champions should remain on the same level of strength when fighting against each other, unless they're deliberately intended to gain or lose power over time. I feel one of the reasons why structures feel so weak now is because they're supposed to fall within a certain time window, yet most of a player's lead is expressed through their personal stat increases, rather than through the opportunity to damage turrets and the like, which causes them to need to be weaker, so that whichever lead goes into destroying them achieves it over a set duration.

When it comes to matchmaking, I feel that's a slightly different issue, in that currently Riot's matchmaking system goofs up a little too often and matches people of vastly disparate ranked divisions against each other. I don't think it's responsible for all the cases of extreme snowballing in League, but it definitely makes things worse by essentially guaranteeing that at least one lane will snowball as a result of that imbalance. This could be worth an entirely separate discussion, but I think one of the core issues with matchmaking right now is that teams need to be formed along a very specific, rigid framework (i.e. 1 top, 1 mid, 1 jungle, 1 bot support and 1 bot carry), and on top of that there are very large differences in popularity across those roles (support is still the least popular role in the game by far), which forces steep tradeoffs in time, accuracy and match quality. You could technically just autofill anyone to go anywhere at all times, but then people would hate autofill even more and would be forced into roles they're far less good at (which lowers the quality of matches), and making sure everyone is at the exact same elo/MMR likely risks incurring a steep cost in time, even if it is absolutely desirable when focusing on better match quality. This is one of the reasons why I think League needs to take a hammer to their years-old positional meta, as I feel it's directly responsible for a suboptimal matchmaking system, in addition to a large degree of stagnancy within matches themselves.

HalcyonDwellerSep 1, 20172 votes

There's too much there for me to respond in-depth to while I'm at work, but I want to say I agree wholeheartedly with you.

I think your analysis is spot on and I like the suggestions you've put forth about reducing the vertical growth of champions and how that could help reduce feast/famine situations.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Thanks so much for contributing to the thread!