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Teemo Rework to enhance his fantasy / decrease toxicity.

AHarmlessTaco··18 votes·2,500 views

Hey guys! Thanks for stopping by to check this out. I am totally hyped to show you what I've been working on. Below I have a fairly in-depth rework for Teemo aimed at making him more thematically engaging and dynamic, both playing as and against. Everything here is still being updated periodically.

Some of the main problems I see with Teemo:

  • Thematically, Teemo doesn't have that 'scout' feeling. People say he contributes very little to team fights and his best scouting feature, the shroom, is a deadly bomb that's just being thrown around nowadays. I think a scout should be a more team-based identity.
  • Teemo's laning pattern is unhealthy. His current style is to just keep hammering at you and is very bipolar, you crush or get crushed and there is very little interactivity. Point and click blind, a simple and kind of useless W, and a poison that also isn't very exciting.
  • Mushrooms. There is just so much that can be done with these menacing little buggers. But as they are they are just throw, forget and profit when someone cleverly escapes a fight and dies because, you know, mushroom. They cause a lot of frustration and inhibit Teemo in so many ways.

My goal is to fix all of this and to give Teemo a real identity. I want people to fear Teemo when they hit a mushroom, not the mushroom itself. I want him to provide for his team in his own solo style. I want him to have counter-play but I also want him to feel less restricted than he does now. I want a versatile scout with clear strengths and weaknesses.

During this rework I tried my best to keep true to the current Teemo experience:

  • Teemo is still an auto-attack based, magic-damage dealing, poison-dart slinging badger.
  • Mushrooms are still at the core of his identity, but they should be healthier now.
  • The blind is out, but Teemo still has a great tool to disable those ADCs.
  • The little guy still scooters around the map like he has an agenda, but now it's more engaging.

Here is a preview of some of the major changes I have made: Before you ask "why" or say "that's dumb", read the new abilities. This is just for heads up.

  • Jungle Teemo is a happy Teemo; can collect gold/exp from defeated monsters and minions he didn't kill.
  • Teemo now has 4 basic abilities akin to Udyr; level 1 shrooms are a thing.
  • Critical strike chance has been incorporated for access to Zeal items.
  • Q and E have been combined; Q no longer blinds but instead applies nearsight. (Like Quinn/Graves). New poison stacking mechanics.
  • W is now momentum based, has an active roll component and interacts with mushrooms.
  • New E is a long-ranged linear skillshot that applies on hit and spell effects.
  • Mushrooms have been changed a good deal.

item 1414 item 3094 item 3020 item 3100 item 3151 item 3157 item 3085 item 3285 item 3165 item 3006 item 3931 item 3091 item 3087

.........................................................Skills........................................ **Numbers are here to give an impression, not a final result. They are subject to change. **

Passive- Camouflage After having taken no damage for 1.5 seconds and remaining still or in a brush, Teemo gains stealth. Teemo remains stealthed in brush so long as he does not attack or use an ability. However, moving or being moved while outside of a brush will also break his camouflage. Whenever Teemo breaks stealth he gains the Element of Surprise, granting him 30% bonus critical strike chance and attack speed for 3 seconds. Teemo's Critical Strikes deal no additional physical damage. Instead, Teemo ignores 20% of his target’s magic resistance for every 30% of his Critical Strike Chance (applies before magic penetration).

Q- Jungle Toxins PASSIVE: Teemo’s basic attacks deal bonus magic damage, increased by 10% (+2% per 100 AP) for every stack of Kumungu Toxins on the target, and apply a stack of Kumungu Toxins on hit while Pushroom Traps apply 2 stacks to all enemies in range upon detonation (maximum 4 stacks). Enemies poisoned by Kumungu Toxins take 1% (scales to 2%@Level18)(+0.01% per 1% of CSC) of their Current Health as Magic Damage each second for 3 seconds (up to 4 stacks). Damage is capped at 100 damage per second against monsters; additional applications of Kumungu Toxins refresh the duration. ACTIVE: Teemo’s next basic attack is coated in Puffshroom extract, causing it to apply nearsight for 2 seconds. Casting Jungle Toxins will reset the auto attack timer.

  • COOLDOWN: 7 seconds
  • COST: 70 mana
  • MAGIC DAMAGE ON HIT: 10 / 21 / 32 / 43 / 54 (+40% AP)

W- Move Quick PASSIVE: Teemo gradually gains bonus flat movement speed while unstealthed and moving. The maximum bonus movement speed is increased by 50% and ramps twice as fast when moving towards and inside Mushroom Clouds, but is reduced upon taking damage and holding still. ACTIVE: Teemo rolls a short distance, ignoring all applications of crowd control and setting his movement speed bonus to one-fifth of its maximum value. Rolling into brush grants Camouflage. While stealthed, Move Quick's active refreshes at double the normal rate.

  • COOLDOWN: 22 / 19 / 16 / 13 / 10 seconds
  • COST: 50 mana
  • Maximum bonus movement speed: 24 / 30 / 36 / 42 / 48
  • Enhanced max bonus movement speed: 36 / 45 / 54 / 63 / 72
  • Mushroom Cloud Detection Range: 3500
  • Roll Distance: 325

E- Longshot ACTIVE: Teemo inhales sharply and forcefully fires a dart in a line, dealing (100% AD) physical damage to the first enemy hit and applying on-hit and spell effects. Casting Jungle Toxins before casting this ability will cause Longshot to consume the buff; casting Jungle Toxins after casting this ability will not cause Longshot to blind on hit nor consume the buff. Longshot’s maximum range is increased while Teemo is stealthed, indicated by a RFC type circle.

  • COOLDOWN 18 / 15.5 / 13 / 10.5 / 8 seconds
  • COST: 60 mana
  • RANGE: 1400 / 1700

R- Scout’s Salvage PASSIVE: Minions and monsters killed by champions other than Teemo leave behind materials for Teemo to scavenge, granting gold and experience based on their size and numbers. These drops expire when camps respawn and have caps in lanes.

PASSIVE- Puffshroom Trap: Teemo stores a charge of Puffshroom Trap periodically, up to a maximum of 3. ACTIVE: Teemo sets a mushroom trap on the ground which stealths and arms after 0.5 seconds, lasting for up to 8 minutes. If an enemy steps on a trap, it detonates, applying a rapidly decaying slow to all enemies in range for 4 seconds and leaving a Mushroom Cloud for up to 4 seconds. Enemies that remain in the cloud have their vision gradually reduced, with the vision being gradually restored once leaving the cloud. Whenever a Mushroom Cloud is created, a small fading indicator is left on the minimap and in the Fog of War.

  • COOLDOWN: 0.25
  • RECHARGE TIME: 24 / 22.5 / 21 / 19.5 / 18
  • COST: 50 Mana + 1 Mushroom
  • CAST RANGE: 100
  • DETECTION RANGE 60
  • DETONATION / MUSHROOM CLOUD RANGE: 300
  • SLOW: 20 / 24 / 28 / 32 / 36%

item 1414 item 3094 item 3020 item 3100 item 3151 item 3157 item 3085 item 3285 item 3165 item 3006 item 3931 item 3091 item 3087

..................Skills Breakdown if You’re Super Interested...................

I think the direction I'm trying to make this all go is: I want people to fear Teemo's mushrooms. I don't want people to be afraid of being killed by them, but rather I want everyone to be afraid of what is going to happen next if they don't get out. Making the mushrooms apply nearsight is terrifying in itself. You can't see what is happening and you lose touch with the map. To really drive this in, Teemo now gains movement speed towards you and can hit you from afar with a dart that packs a punch. By converting the damage on the mushrooms to %Current HP, along with Teemo having so much MPen, it won't matter who you are if you are; if you have full hp, you're going to rapidly fall into burst range after a few mushrooms. But then mushrooms aren't as scary anymore, leaving the rest to the Teemo player.

Regarding CSC- I always wanted Teemo to be able to build AS/MS items and to have the passives from Runaan’s or Statik Shiv. Now with Rapid Firecannon and Runaan’s having CSC I think I can make a reasonable argument that giving Teemo good bases on his poison, with low AP scalings and some magic penetration from CSC, could really enhance his gameplay and itemization. He can now itemize for that team-fight aoe, or that single-target surprise burst based on how the player wants to play. This goes right with allowing freedom of skill rank up and play style.

P- Camouflage Overall I left this ability unchanged because it suits Teemo very well. It helps him hide while he is roaming and sets him up for interesting ambushes and ganks. I did swap out the attack speed for critical strike chance to really let his base damage and items do their work against all targets. Ideally, Teemo should have the bases to deal with squishies. I don't want him to insta-delete people; I want Teemo players to plan around getting people to 50% health with mushrooms and %current HP burns, then to try to burst them with his base damage.

Q- Jungle Toxins I combined blinding dart and toxic shot into a condensed poison theme. I wanted all of Teemo’s damage to be based in one skill because he uses poison darts and it makes sense to have his damage scale off the poison. That said, the damage from this skill does translate into his Longshot and Puffshrooms late game. One big note would be the %current hp damage increases per champion level, so that even with 1 point, Teemo can remain functional, yet not oppressive with maxing Q first in lane. However, the on hit effect damage does scale with rank so you can still get some damage in top lane.

W- Move Quick Helps Teemo get around and has some interaction with the new mushroom clouds. I want that cruising feeling during roaming and a small boost in safety while kiting, but after you blow that roll and get hit and lose your movespeed bonus I think you're done for.

E- Longshot Something mechanically simple in the kit, with interactions with the passive, the Q, and items like RFC and Lich Bane. Gives the player some more decision making in how Q is used and whether. Enabling a longer shot while stealthed seemed to help embrace the ambush feeling, and could help Teemo hit the enemy ADC from a safe distance when a fight breaks out. Or you can just use Q when someone jumps you then roll away, hoping they can't see where you rolled and started running to.

R- Scout’s Salvage Gold and experience gains from defeated camps would allow Teemo to roam the enemy jungle and lanes in compensation for not being able to farm his own jungle. I believe this skill to be the key to Teemo’s scouting success. It incentivizes him to explore the enemy jungle and to roam to friendly lanes, while allowing him to have a weak early game in exchange for late game power. Even if he gets counter jungled, he gets some of the booty. That said, the mushrooms lost base damage in exchange for %current HP damage to reduce frustration from escaping a fight only to die to a shroom. The slow would still be annoying and the new vision loss seems cool because it could cause anxiety in enemy junglers that stand near a camp, slowly losing vision while they farm. I would want clouds to be a fairly small, subtle thing that alert allies of ganks and jungler position, but I got rid of the vision mushrooms provided to allow for some privacy in case the support hits them.

...........................................Feedback Request....................... Thanks for reading, like I said I’d love some feedback and questions!

** Thoughts I'm working with, feel free to ignore:** % inc in dmg when hit by shroom (inc item dps) for Teemo (and allies?) ^% crit based? Q on hit crit? Allies MS boost towards clouds? Q blind dur scale with R rank? passive AP gains? bonus to LB and Ludens but less incentive to buy deathcap? Crit= MPen ; AP for burst ; AS for max stacks fast (anti tank) ; separate anti tank from burst New E: flashbomb? tripwires? replace with shroom + give new ult? W Roll ignore CC; slippery? %Current HP scale w/CSC?

54 Comments

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted} Regarding CSC- I always wanted Teemo to be able to build AS/MS items and to have the passives from Runaan’s or Statik Shiv. Now with Rapid Firecannon and Runaan’s having CSC I think I can make a reasonable argument that giving Teemo good bases on his poison, with low AP scalings and some magic penetration from CSC, could really enhance his gameplay and itemization. He can now itemize for that team-fight aoe, or that single-target surprise burst based on how the player wants to play. This goes right with allowing freedom of skill rank up and play style. It also makes Liandry’s Torment a beautiful pick-up on him even with the tiny damage on his mushrooms, because that % Current HP dot should still pack a punch late game, after 3 or 4 items. It just won’t kill you.

Interesting thought here -- but it's a little odd that Crit only helps against MR stacking. I'd personally consider letting his poison ticks have a chance of critically striking for bonus magic damage, ala. Statik Shiv. Helps his synergy as a high DoT champion, and makes being poisoned something really scary, especially as the stacks build up. I think it works better than the Crit as an anti-MR design direction, and helps lock him in as a magic damage Marksman.

P- Camouflage Overall I left this ability unchanged because it suits Teemo very well. It helps him hide while he is roaming and sets him up for interesting ambushes and ganks. I did swap out the attack speed for critical strike chance to smooth out the AS builds and still allow for some unexpected burst when ambushing enemies.

I think the attack speed still works better here -- it synergizes with his kit better. Alternatively, it might be appropriate to let him burst by making his first attack out of ambush apply a greater number of stacks of his toxin and a smaller attack speed buff. It still smoothes out AS builds while keeping him firmly in the "attack more" camp, and front-loads his damage potential if he stealths.

I'll drop some more comments later, but those are two things that immediately stuck out to me.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Interesting thought here -- but it's a little odd that Crit only helps against MR stacking. I'd personally consider letting his poison ticks have a chance of critically striking for bonus magic damage, ala. Statik Shiv. Helps his synergy as a high DoT champion, and makes being poisoned something really scary, especially as the stacks build up. I think it works better than the Crit as an anti-MR design direction, and helps lock him in as a magic damage Marksman.

I very much agree that it seems odd to give CSC such a simple stat modifier. However, I believe this rework to give Teemo all the base damage he needs to handle squishy targets and my goals were to give him a means of dealing sustained damage against all targets without allowing him to 100-0 soft targets. My goals were not to make Teemo the new Azir in terms of raw DPS vs all targets, but rather someone who could reliably make use of the bases on items to deal damage, requiring proper set up and usage to deal sustained... bursts.... of damage. I personally don't think the poison should be what kills them since it is frustrating. I changed the poison to a current health % system that helps to get people into burst range, rather than bursting someone and letting poison kill them off. All this said, there could easily be a better way to implement this CSC addition and I will certainly keep thinking through options.

I think the attack speed still works better here -- it synergizes with his kit better. Alternatively, it might be appropriate to let him burst by making his first attack out of ambush apply a greater number of stacks of his toxin and a smaller attack speed buff. It still smoothes out AS builds while keeping him firmly in the "attack more" camp, and front-loads his damage potential if he stealths.

Definitely something to consider. Going back to my idea of base damages, I really thought this would make sure Teemo got his item and base damages off to anyone he ambushes. I have to edit the main body of this to what you see in one of the other comments, but ideally Teemo can get to full stacks off one mushroom, an E, and an auto attack. In that regard, having more attack speed didnt make as much sense compared to ensuring damage against heavier targets. However, I could be totally off and perhaps the attack speed is better.

Thank you VERY MUCH for the comments, I will gladly await your return. In the meantime I am going to edit the main body some and I will keep considering what you said. I really appreciate that you're taking the time to read this so it's only fair that I seriously consider any feedback.

EDIT: Sorry for the drastic change up to the main post. I'm trying to make it nicer to read.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}I very much agree that it seems odd to give CSC such a simple stat modifier. However, I believe this rework to give Teemo all the base damage he needs to handle squishy targets and my goals were to give him a means of dealing sustained damage against all targets without allowing him to 100-0 soft targets.

The problem is that I don't think that's true: his numbers are kind of odd, and his damage is actually really low (a 100% AD "nuke" on a long cooldown, and 70 extra damage per hit isn't that much, honestly, and 3% current health burn is still pretty low). You've also really messed with his itemization: AP for mushrooms and auto-attacks, AD for his E and auto-attacks, crit OR Magic Penetration to fight MR, AS speed for Q...it's confusing, and really unclear when you want to buy what items.

My goals were not to make Teemo the new Azir in terms of raw DPS vs all targets, but rather someone who could reliably make use of the bases on items to deal damage, requiring proper set up and usage to deal sustained... bursts.... of damage. I personally don't think the poison should be what kills them since it is frustrating. I changed the poison to a current health % system that helps to get people into burst range, rather than bursting someone and letting poison kill them off. All this said, there could easily be a better way to implement this CSC addition and I will certainly keep thinking through options.

But you don't have any burst. All your damage is loaded in your E (basically an auto-attack reset on a long cooldown) and your auto-attacks, which don't even have the benefit of critting. There's no burst to speak of.

I definitely get what you're going for. But I don't think this Teemo is much more engaging -- he also just auto-attacks you to death, and his only real ability that requires any more mechanical skill is his E, which is not a skillshot. His itemization is incredibly obfuscated compared to live (which only really wants AP / AS -- this one can use AD / AP / AS / Crit, and it's hard to tell which is more useful at any one point in time), and what he gets out of it doesn't seem MUCH healthier in the end.

THE MOST HELPFUL QUESTION I CAN ASK AT THIS POINT IS THIS -- What do you want Teemo to become, in terms of gameplay output (i.e. his influence on the game)? What niche do you see him filling? Under what conditions should a player go "Teemo is the perfect fit for this team?

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

EDIT: A super helpful thing for me to help process things is: Can you tell me what, if anything, you LIKE about this in particular? Something somewhere that seems to illustrate the direction I want to go? Or maybe a problem that YOU see with Teemo that maybe Im not touching on well. Something element wise.

Okay! Well I wrote a response that tries to answer the bug question, then gives a counterargument at the end. If you don't have time right now then don't worry about replying, I will may come back to this and edit it after thinking everything over.

My gut instinct is to say I want Teemo to fit his 'scout' identity, but I am having a really hard time pinpointing where and how that can be useful.

I know it sounds cliche but whenever I think of early game junglers, like Shaco, I think: "god I wish I knew where he was. If there is an Evelyn I think, damn I wish my wards actually worked. Sometimes all I want to know is whether the enemy jungler started Red or Blue... Now, that said I can often tell you where an enemy jungler is based on where I least want him to be. But I would still like that safety net as a laner.

I want Teemo to give your team heads up on everything that is going on and to set things up ahead of time. I want him to always be able to contest Baron and/or Dragon and even enemy buffs, or at least know when they are being taken. I want him to be a counter to early game junglers like Shaco, Lee Sin, Elise, etc... by simply helping your team ward and keep up on knowing how safely they need to play and opening up opportunities to play more aggressive.

That said, I also want him to remain very similar to what he is now, which is a magic damage auto attack carry with a solid amount of mobility and map control. The numbers I presented are all that I could work through mentally without some kind of graphical representation. I don't really have a way to see just how much damage he would output... But in my mind, if he has more magic pen then the base damage on items should shoot up.

I figured the Passive fit him still

  • The Q change seemed appropriate and interesting as a lever for the mushrooms and new mobility; making it an option to use Q active as an auto attack enhancer made sense to me because Teemo doesnt change how he is attacking when using darts... however if he shoots it from far away (E) he can definitely miss thematically.
  • The W change made it more interactive and had to be kept to allow him the needed movement to ward well
  • The E was the BIGGEST change because it gave him range, a way to ambush from afar, to steal buffs, to give people a reason to fear being low while jungling, a way to gank / blind from afar. It was a tool to facilitate everything I wanted Teemo to be able to do, without it being an obnoxious skill. Thus allowing Q to have power.
  • The R needed to be focused on vision and engaging plays, getting people lower on HP and giving Teemo a way to collapse on them with E and W. The gold gains through enemy camps and lanes gives Teemo incentive to roam and a way to scale into late game while doing his job early on.

All in all, I didn't know where the trade offs should be for increased mobility, vision, and range.... so I hit the damage output early on. I don't want him to auto you to death; I want people to hit shrooms and lose a lot of life when high HP, but not die to mushrooms. I want good Teemos to hunt down people who are low and vision impaired then be able to get out fairly reliably. I just don't know if increased damage output through items was the best way to go, even though I love the ramp time on Ludens and RFC/Statikk as a way to gate the burst, which you say doesn't exist.

Also, E is a skillshot. The 100% AD is simply to emphasize that it is a long range auto attack.... It benefits from Q active and items and specifically on spell effects. Making it work like this lets me budget power into Q, while providing an interesting skill I think.

ALRIGHTY, here is my counterargument on DPS and mechanical changes. I need some time for your statements to sink in but I will leave this here in case things didn't make sense to you (not saying they dont, Im just stubborn sometimes)

The grand idea was: The poison stacks up to 4 times with 2 stacks granted by shrooms... late game that is 8% current hp per second for 3 seconds if someone hits 2 shrooms, also see true damage with crit. With Liandrys that is ~12% current hp per second for 3 seconds which could be a lot to follow up on. E followup with RFC+Ludens+Lich Bane is ~160+100+160 = 420 damage +70 from Q onhit =~500 damage from hitting E... which I guess isn't HUGE but it would be pretty much true damage. Plus they would be vision impaired and you could come trucking at them for 70 magic damage per hit, which isn't bad after ~25% current hp + 500 damage +70 true damage per auto when they can't even see you OR catch you due to W. Keep in mind though that numbers are subjective right now.... I don't really have a way to accurately estimate the damage outputs comparatively right now. That would be a lot of math....

I actually thought he was more mechanically engaging because Q is an aa reset, W is a tumble, E is a skillshot, and R requires followup.... buuuuuuuuut I dk....

WHEW that's all I have for right now. I will look at: Improving Crit interactions, utilizing crit better... etc... Providing clearer distinctions on when to buy certain items Making sure the damage output is actually useful

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}

EDIT: A super helpful thing for me to help process things is: Can you tell me what, if anything, you LIKE about this in particular? Something somewhere that seems to illustrate the direction I want to go? Or maybe a problem that YOU see with Teemo that maybe Im not touching on well. Something element wise.

Absolutely!

THINGS I LIKE --Finding a place for Crit in Teemo's build. --Giving Teemo some sort of incentive to roam across the map.

I think those are great directions for the little devil.

PROBLEMS I SEE WITH TEEMO --No real opportunity to show mastery. This makes it slightly better, but still has the same issue.

Some thoughts of my own, rather off the top of my head...

AMBUSH [Passive] Passive: When standing still for 1.5 seconds, Teemo gains stealth. He retains stealth for up to 2 seconds after he starts moving. The stealth duration is refreshed whenever Teemo is inside a bush.

When Teemo breaks stealth (whether by attacking an enemy or by running out the duration), he gains 40% bonus attack speed for 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 seconds (at levels 1 / 6 / 11 / 16).

MOVE QUICK [W] Passive: Teemo gains 10 / 14 / 18 / 22 / 26% bonus movement speed if he has not taken damage from enemy champions or turrets in the last 5 seconds.

Active: Teemo immediately activates Ambush's stealth, regardless of his current movement status. Additionally, he gains a massive movement speed boost that decays quickly over 2 seconds.

^^ These give Teemo a lot of options for scouting, lane-ambushes, and evasion. It lets him both get into optimal positions, gank, and be a slippery little devil when running into enemy territory.

TOXIC SHOT [Q] Passive: Teemo's auto-attacks deal (10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 | +20% AP) bonus magic damage on-hit, and additional (5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 | +10% AP) magic damage per second for 4 seconds. Multiple instances of poison stack to a maximum of 6.

The initial and secondary damage of the poison can critically strike for 100% increased damage.

Active: Teemo's next auto-attack shrinks the enemy's vision range for 1.5 seconds. Cooldown: 8 / 7.5 / 7 / 6.5 / 6 seconds.

^^ Teemo is more of a DoT character than before, but that hits his harassing nature nicely. His "blind" is helpful as it lets him set up Mushrooms outside of his enemy's vision range, causing them to potentially fail to notice the location of the traps.

NOXIOUS TRAP [Ultimate] Noxious Trap is available at level 1 Passive: Teemo stores 1 Mushroom every 20 / 17 / 14 / 11 seconds, to a maximum of 1 / 2 / 3 / 4. Active: Teemo places a Mushroom anywhere on the map within 2000 / 2500 / 3000 / 3500 range.

Teemo has a maximum of 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 Mushrooms placed. Mushrooms turn invisible after 1 second, and grant vision in a small radius (slightly larger than the current mushroom). If an enemy collides with a Mushroom all nearby enemies suffer a heavily, rapidly decaying slow, are revealed for 4 seconds, and take magic damage over 4 seconds equal to 5 / 10 / 15 / 20% (+1% per 50 AP) of their maximum health. Multiple instance of this damage refresh the duration, but do not stack.

Damage occurs once every second, and the damage proc can critically strike for 100% increased damage.

Cooldown: 1 second.

^^ This gives Teemo some early game zoning power, while not a huge amount of raw damage in the early game. His mushrooms become a force to be reckoned with in the late game though, as with AP and Crit he'll be chunking people pretty heavily if they make the mistake of walking over a mushroom.

It gives him that map control feel you want at every stage of the game, and the massive range helps him grow his little jungle. You can even use it to check if camps are up, as placing it on a camp will cause a detonation if the camp is still around.

Not sure on an E yet.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

THINGS I LIKE --Finding a place for Crit in Teemo's build. --Giving Teemo some sort of incentive to roam across the map.

Alright. Good start.

PROBLEMS I SEE WITH TEEMO --No real opportunity to show mastery. This makes it slightly better, but still has the same issue.

Alright so elaborate on this part if you would be so kind. I feel as though my rework would give a lot more opportunity for mastery. Properly setting up objectives and maintaining vision control now that mushrooms have lower CD, roaming between lanes and jungle for gold/exp gains, utilizing the blind/roll effectively much like Vayne R mastery, utilizing the E to blind snipe ADCs/high value targets, chasing down people in mushroom clouds, properly stacking Q DOT poisons, normal Teemo kiting mechanics, knowing when to use Q for an AA reset vs an E proc.... even skill order and itemization would take some thought, allowing for different playstyles. I think the rework built on many existing of Teemo's points of mastery.

AMBUSH [Passive] Passive: When standing still for 1.5 seconds, Teemo gains stealth. He retains stealth for up to 2 seconds after he starts moving. The stealth duration is refreshed whenever Teemo is inside a bush.

Alright definitely something to consider and I do like it, but it makes Teemo very hard to punish with CC. Being able to displace Teemo to reveal him is very important I think and your suggestion would make it impossible to reveal him in bushes.

When Teemo breaks stealth (whether by attacking an enemy or by running out the duration), he gains 40% bonus attack speed for 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 seconds (at levels 1 / 6 / 11 / 16).

Alright, still something to consider for sure. I have to work out the crit kinks before I can say whether or not AS or CSC seems appropriate for the Element of Surprise. I could actually make this a focal point of playstyle and say he gains double his bonus attack speed and 30% critical strike chance? IDK

MOVE QUICK [W] Passive: Teemo gains 10 / 14 / 18 / 22 / 26% bonus movement speed if he has not taken damage from enemy champions or turrets in the last 5 seconds.

Is this to say you don't like my momentum passive? What about the movement interaction with Mushrooms?

Active: Teemo immediately activates Ambush's stealth, regardless of his current movement status. Additionally, he gains a massive movement speed boost that decays quickly over 2 seconds.

I feel as though this could be fairly gimicky without the passive change... but with it I assume you want Teemo to basically gain stealth and a movement speed burst for 2 seconds.... Then he gains the Element of Surprise... So running running W --> stealth+MS boost --> Element of Surprise followup burst. Okay I could see it perhaps. Definitely would cut power from the passive though given its easy access.

^^ These give Teemo a lot of options for scouting, lane-ambushes, and evasion. It lets him both get into optimal positions, gank, and be a slippery little devil when running into enemy territory.

Duly noted and I agree, but please elaborate on how my changes do not do the same thing. What makes keeping his current passive and swapping my active for yours better? I'm genuinely curious as to the thought process. I think having a movement speed interaction with the Mushrooms would be a huge improvement personally.

TOXIC SHOT [Q] Passive: Teemo's auto-attacks deal (10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 | +20% AP) bonus magic damage on-hit, and additional (5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 | +10% AP) magic damage per second for 4 seconds. Multiple instances of poison stack to a maximum of 6.

I'm ignoring the bases and ratios for right now just because math but 6 stacks? That seems like an awful lot of basic attacks to have to fire off and could really hurt his harass in lane due to the maximum damage potential. My rework specifies up to 4 stacks and you can get 2 from mushrooms, which seems much more feasible in lane and gives Teemo a reason to wait for people to hit the shrooms. If we went with 6 stacks could the first stack do more damage than the rest you think?

The initial and secondary damage of the poison can critically strike for 100% increased damage.

Critically striking on this ability felt so odd to me when I thought about it... It messes with the steady poison feel and makes Teemo's damage VERY unreliable at 30% CSC. Riot's been trying to make CSC much MORE reliable lately (see pretty much all ADCs) so I think this would cause a bit of a problem.

Active: Teemo's next auto-attack shrinks the enemy's vision range for 1.5 seconds. Cooldown: 8 / 7.5 / 7 / 6.5 / 6 seconds.

AA reset?

^^ Teemo is more of a DoT character than before, but that hits his harassing nature nicely.

I think this would actually hurt his harass immensely. Like I said, due to a potential maximum of 6 stacks, each stack would have to do very little damage. This would force Teemo into extended trades, which are NOT good for him right now. His current pattern is just needing to get one auto off to get the DOT going, and even doing that is very risky sometimes. That is one reason I did a current HP system because the first shot would always be the biggest damage component and getting to max stacks would have declining returns.

His "blind" is helpful as it lets him set up Mushrooms outside of his enemy's vision range, causing them to potentially fail to notice the location of the traps.

Agreed.

NOXIOUS TRAP [Ultimate] Noxious Trap is available at level 1 Passive: Teemo stores 1 Mushroom every 20 / 17 / 14 / 11 seconds, to a maximum of 1 / 2 / 3 / 4. Active: Teemo places a Mushroom anywhere on the map within 2000 / 2500 / 3000 / 3500 range. Teemo has a maximum of 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 Mushrooms placed.

WOOOOAH NOW BUDDY. Haha this one I think went too far personally. I don't think this would help Teemo's case in terms of thematic consistency. He would have way fewer shrooms than he does now and they certainly wouldn't provide that safety net of vision anymore. One sweep and the whole area is clear. Also, this would be super strong during teamfights since you could just nuke people from Cait ult distance away.

Mushrooms turn invisible after 1 second, and grant vision in a small radius (slightly larger than the current mushroom). If an enemy collides with a Mushroom all nearby enemies suffer a heavily, rapidly decaying slow, are revealed for 4 seconds, and take magic damage over 4 seconds equal to 5 / 10 / 15 / 20% (+1% per 50 AP) of their maximum health. Multiple instance of this damage refresh the duration, but do not stack.

Again, definitely wouldn't work with the cast range. A 20%+ health bomb from a Cait ult away plus a slow? Pretty crazy stuff.... Also, this doesn't address the toxicity / feelbadman parts of Teemo's mushrooms. People like having a path paved with shrooms and they also hate dying to mushrooms that chunk you to death. This would make both of those cases worse if you ask me...

Damage occurs once every second, and the damage proc can critically strike for 100% increased damage. Cooldown: 1 second.

Uh.... Again, kind of inconsistent feeling because of that 30%-60% range. Some mushrooms would do 40% max HP while some do 20%... that'd be very frustrating to Teemo players and their opponents I think.

^^ This gives Teemo some early game zoning power, while not a huge amount of raw damage in the early game. His mushrooms become a force to be reckoned with in the late game though, as with AP and Crit he'll be chunking people pretty heavily if they make the mistake of walking over a mushroom.

Again, I think killing people with mushrooms just isn't the way to go. It creates a lot of frustration in the community and sweepers would render key zones mushroom free and wipe out all of Teemo's damage...

It gives him that map control feel you want at every stage of the game, and the massive range helps him grow his little jungle. You can even use it to check if camps are up, as placing it on a camp will cause a detonation if the camp is still around.

Given that you could only have 5 mushrooms places, I feel as though he would have even less vision control than he does now. Also, being able to ward from far away wouldn't feel any better than having a item 3363.... it would just be a 'boop' hey its people. It wouldn't have that feeling of putting yourself in danger to ward things. That feeling is something I LOVE as a support main. Actually having to risk yourself to get vision control feels great, whereas item 3363 is just a super safe way of getting cheap vision IMO.

Not sure on an E yet.

Keep on thinking buddy. I know this one got me too.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}Alright so elaborate on this part if you would be so kind. I feel as though my rework would give a lot more opportunity for mastery. Properly setting up objectives and maintaining vision control now that mushrooms have lower CD, roaming between lanes and jungle for gold/exp gains, utilizing the blind/roll effectively much like Vayne R mastery, utilizing the E to blind snipe ADCs/high value targets, chasing down people in mushroom clouds, properly stacking Q DOT poisons, normal Teemo kiting mechanics, knowing when to use Q for an AA reset vs an E proc.... even skill order and itemization would take some thought, allowing for different playstyles. I think the rework built on many existing of Teemo's points of mastery.

DoT stacking isn't mastery, since it's largely auto-attack dependent. Mushrooms aren't any more difficult to utilize then they are currently. The roll is fine, but it's gimmicky, as it only appears at the maximum rank. The roaming would work...if Teemo's kit were better suited to it, but you really didn't design his kit to encourage that...and having XP/Gold for roaming actually makes roaming LESS mastery-dependent, as you get some reward even if you choose a bad time to roam.

Contrast this with my suggestion, which allows you huge opportunities for in-lane and jungle plays (via stealth and speed boosts), rewards you for managing to stay in prolonged fights (via a high DoT cap instead of a low one), encourages tactical mushroom placement (via fewer mushrooms and a longer arming time, yet a larger range and slightly larger vision radius to make the reward bigger if you hit the right spots), and a Q that can enable you to place mushrooms unseen if you time your abilities right, or activate your W and escape.

Alright definitely something to consider and I do like it, but it makes Teemo very hard to punish with CC. Being able to displace Teemo to reveal him is very important I think and your suggestion would make it impossible to reveal him in bushes.

...how? As soon as he's visible you can CC him into the ground, and current Teemo is able to move while stealthed in the bush as well. It was in his last update -- displacement will no longer reveal him in a bush. This is really just an addition of a small amount of stealth after LEAVING the bush.

Alright, still something to consider for sure. I have to work out the crit kinks before I can say whether or not AS or CSC seems appropriate for the Element of Surprise. I could actually make this a focal point of playstyle and say he gains double his bonus attack speed and 30% critical strike chance? IDK

I think the AS speed is a clarity boost that says "Teemo is an AP / AS character -- but since he gets some AS, his primary damage is AP." That's healthy -- it offers some instruction on how to best build Teemo, even though other options exist.

Passive: Teemo gains 10 / 14 / 18 / 22 / 26% bonus movement speed if he has not taken damage from enemy champions or turrets in the last 5 seconds.

Is this to say you don't like my momentum passive? What about the movement interaction with Mushrooms?

Pretty much. It solidifies mushrooms as an offensive and zoning/vision tool instead of also letting them be used for escapes, which puts too many uses on the mushrooms for my tastes. I also think this is sort of a case of "if it's not broke, don't fix it:" Move Quick's passive works just fine, especially for a Scout. Gives some nice counter-play as well, since it can be fully shut off it he's caught out of position.

I feel as though this could be fairly gimicky without the passive change... but with it I assume you want Teemo to basically gain stealth and a movement speed burst for 2 seconds.... Then he gains the Element of Surprise... So running running W --> stealth+MS boost --> Element of Surprise followup burst. Okay I could see it perhaps. Definitely would cut power from the passive though given its easy access.

Hence the reason I scaled up the passive's duration over time. The other solution would be to grant 15 / 30 / 45 / 60% Attack Speed for 4 seconds, which might be more appropriate.

These give Teemo a lot of options for scouting, lane-ambushes, and evasion. It lets him both get into optimal positions, gank, and be a slippery little devil when running into enemy territory.

Duly noted and I agree, but please elaborate on how my changes do not do the same thing. What makes keeping his current passive and swapping my active for yours better? I'm genuinely curious as to the thought process. I think having a movement speed interaction with the Mushrooms would be a huge improvement personally.

Because the roll isn't really in keeping with Teemo's character, and only comes on at level 5 -- it's cleaner to have something that gives more standard power. Because the invisibility ties in nicely with his passive already, and makes it feel rather Teemo-y. Because it pushes the mushrooms into a clearer role, instead of having them serve as zoning / CC / vision / AND an escape tool. Because it lets you run around the jungle using bushes as strategic stealth extenders, and offers some counterplay if your enemies know that you're trying to do exactly that and can predict you.

Basically, Teemo is about being a fast-moving, stealthy little Yordle, and your suggestions feel, to me, closer to someone like Vayne, while I feel that my stealth + movement speed plays right into that fantasy of an ambushing yordle who melts back into the bushes from whence he came.

I'm ignoring the bases and ratios for right now just because math but 6 stacks? That seems like an awful lot of basic attacks to have to fire off and could really hurt his harass in lane due to the maximum damage potential.

Correct. The goal is that, with his new passive and his speed boost, he can stick to targets MUCH better than before. His worst-case scenario (1-2 shots) has gotten worse, while his best-case scenario (the 4-6 shots that a skilled player with good positioning should be able to get off) is rewarded as a result. Intentional design choice there.

My rework specifies up to 4 stacks and you can get 2 from mushrooms, which seems much more feasible in lane and gives Teemo a reason to wait for people to hit the shrooms. If we went with 6 stacks could the first stack do more damage than the rest you think?

That would be pretty unclear. The goal here is to make Teemo have to play well to get that super high damage -- same way Darius or Twitch or Kalista get rewarded for sticking to targets and landing more and more shots. Provides power while still providing meaningful counterplay.

Critically striking on this ability felt so odd to me when I thought about it... It messes with the steady poison feel and makes Teemo's damage VERY unreliable at 30% CSC. Riot's been trying to make CSC much MORE reliable lately (see pretty much all ADCs) so I think this would cause a bit of a problem.

Remember that CSC isn't entirely random -- it's a weighted system dependent on when you last scored a crit. 30% chance over 4 seconds is between 1-2 procs. It's only swingy at ALL at small values, and the number of stacks is high enough that it would actually equalize pretty quickly -- probably as low as 30% crit across more than one stack. You'd be looking at 8 ticks for just 2 stacks, which comes out to almost 2 crits exactly. Variance will be fairly small outside of that.

I think this would actually hurt his harass immensely. Like I said, due to a potential maximum of 6 stacks, each stack would have to do very little damage. This would force Teemo into extended trades, which are NOT good for him right now. His current pattern is just needing to get one auto off to get the DOT going, and even doing that is very risky sometimes. That is one reason I did a current HP system because the first shot would always be the biggest damage component and getting to max stacks would have declining returns.

Extended trades are MUCH better for him with my proposal though -- he has a stealth, the ability to double-proc an AS steroid, stealth to get into a good position, and a vision denial tool to prevent responses from the enemy. You have to take the whole kit into perspective.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:AHarmlessTaco/AHarmlessTaco:_Teemo_Rework

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted} WOOOOAH NOW BUDDY. Haha this one I think went too far personally. I don't think this would help Teemo's case in terms of thematic consistency. He would have way fewer shrooms than he does now and they certainly wouldn't provide that safety net of vision anymore. One sweep and the whole area is clear. Also, this would be super strong during teamfights since you could just nuke people from Cait ult distance away.

Fewer shrooms is intentional -- you wanted him to feel like a scout with a huge ability to track and ward the jungle, and giving him the range to really BE that scout for a team is a great way to sell that fantasy. The reduction in shrooms is necessary to keep that from being oppressive.

Also, the safety net would still be huge -- you can put those 5 anywhere you want.

Solving the nuke case is easy as well -- just extend the arming time. 1.5 second arming time is super easy to avoid. 2 seconds even easier. Pushes them into a zone control and area denial role, which is actually perfect.

Again, definitely wouldn't work with the cast range. A 20%+ health bomb from a Cait ult away plus a slow? Pretty crazy stuff.... Also, this doesn't address the toxicity / feelbadman parts of Teemo's mushrooms. People like having a path paved with shrooms and they also hate dying to mushrooms that chunk you to death. This would make both of those cases worse if you ask me...

Path paved with shrooms is, I think, ultimately unhealthy if the shrooms are going to be strong. If the shrooms AREN'T strong then they're not really ultimate worthy.

You are correct that I've probably put a bit too much strength into them though, as far as health damage was concerned. I wanted to make them threatening to even front-line champions, but may have veered a little too hard in that direction.

Uh.... Again, kind of inconsistent feeling because of that 30%-60% range. Some mushrooms would do 40% max HP while some do 20%... that'd be very frustrating to Teemo players and their opponents I think.

Again, crit is psudeo-randomized, and flattens out over DoT. A 10 second DoT at 30% crit will crit between 2-4 times in almost all situations. All you'd have to do is make the mushroom ticks happen faster (maybe every .25 seconds for less damage) and you'd flatten this out almost entirely.

Again, I think killing people with mushrooms just isn't the way to go. It creates a lot of frustration in the community and sweepers would render key zones mushroom free and wipe out all of Teemo's damage...

And skilled players would respond by placing mushrooms at key locations instead of in giant fields, which is, I think, perfectly fine for gameplay. I WANT Teemo's mushrooms to instill fear and caution in the enemy -- they shouldn't be "Oops. That was inconvenient." Making them max-health dependent means that an ahead Teemo doesn't 100-0 you with a Mushroom, but a Teemo who is behind or using an off-build still gets to partake of his fantasy of map-wide zone control.

Given that you could only have 5 mushrooms places, I feel as though he would have even less vision control than he does now. Also, being able to ward from far away wouldn't feel any better than having a item 3363.... it would just be a 'boop' hey its people. It wouldn't have that feeling of putting yourself in danger to ward things. That feeling is something I LOVE as a support main. Actually having to risk yourself to get vision control feels great, whereas item 3363 is just a super safe way of getting cheap vision IMO.

Then reduce the range a bit, definitely. But I think the range is important in not making him a squishy thing that just feeds the enemy team repeatedly. Maybe 800 / 1200 / 1600 would be better.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Did I scare you off? :<

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

Did I scare you off? :<

Nah. Just been SUPER busy. I had some 11 hours shifts recently, and then a bunch of deliverables on the two game design projects I'm working on that I had to get written down for the programmers. Sorry!

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

No problem Djinn! I was worried I said something rude and put you off. Keep up your work and thanks for letting me know! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

0Silverfang2 votes

I've got to say, it's the most comprehensive rework concept I've seen yet and actually treats teemo with respect. I like a lot of it. I do think the shoots need some oomph behind them or his other abilities need strong ap ratios to keep him viable in fights, but otherwise it seems solid. I like teemo and just want him to see play more often.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Well first off, thank you for taking the time to read this!

I do agree that he really would need oomph in the auto attack department. This would be handled by the immense amount of base damage and MPen from items in addition to his per level scaling Q damage. You can read on if you want but overall he would have substantial DPS or burst, but not both, and it would be based on itemization rather than his own scalings.

The idea overall was the really make Teemo thrive off of base damages rather than having high AP ratios for a few reasons. Hence why I gave him per level scaling on Q in addition to per rank.

The idea for this goes:

With lower AP ratios and higher bases, Teemo would want to build for MPen:

  • MPen benefits Liandrys Torment and the bases of Lich Bane / Luden's / Nashor's base / Rapid Fire Cannon's / Statikk Shiv's

  • Since I wanted MPen and to be able to use RFC/SS, I decided that making Crit Chance give MPen would keep the items useful.

This approach would fix a few problems:

  • Teemo's mushrooms would hurt almost entirely based on Liandry's, which does % CURRENT hp. This would eliminate low health shroom kills and probably improve game health while keeping Teemo from having OP shrooms until very late game vs high hp champions.

  • Teemo can choose between limited burst from RFC/Ludens/Lich Bane or sustained damage from Nashors/Runaans whilst not giving up DPS by forgoing AP (deathcap). Also, Liandrys would be an almost exclusively Shroom oriented pickup since Teemo could now build another Crit /AS item for more DPS, however, having such a high MPen oriented focus would make Liandrys still attractive.

Basically, it was an odd way to make him super flexible build wise.

0Silverfang1 votes

Yeah I can see where you are going with it. Also I saw somewhere that Teemo's W could be given a short distance tumble mechanic giving him a form of escape and making him more of a guerrilla play style. Where if he tumbles into a bush he does the Rengar thing of going invisible only teemo does it instantly in order to escape. It can be balanced by not letting him jump over walls. So it would be a short distance dash into an invisible escape, revealed if he leaves the bush or attacks.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

{quoted}

W- Move Quick (More interactive, especially at max rank)

PASSIVE: "..." ACTIVE: At maximum rank, Teemo gains the ability to roll a short distance, setting his movement speed bonus to 20% of its maximum value.

I included this part with that exact idea in mind, the guerrilla play style that is. I do think that Teemo stealthing upon rolling into a bush could be useful, but given that Teemo currently stealths after 1.5 seconds of being IN a bush, I'm not sure how helpful it would be to make it an immediate effect. If anything, I feel like Teemo should have enough mobility to get into the bush for 1.5 seconds and if someone is THAT hot on his tail, maybe they should have the satisfaction of killing him if he gets to the bush too late. Just food for thought.

0Silverfang1 votes

Maybe, but the current style of teemo is a slow, antiquated style that is in need of an update. Stealthing in a bush should have a more impacting presence in the game, but since most skill shots and aoe abilities can cover the entirety of a bush being able to run around in that bush is not very rewarding at all. This would give him some means to fight back when cornered by aoe attackers and casters like brand or pantheon without being overpowered since if he just wants to wait for stealth it's still 1.5 seconds out in the open too. This makes him a little more active in his gameplay.

Thank you for the compliment on the tracking ability. I do think teemo should be considered as a viable jungle champion by more players.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I completely agree that he feels slow and uneventful, especially as someone who should be so nimble and scout-like. I also agree that bushes often feel too small, though on Howling Abyss the bushes are quite ideal and I have seen Teemos stand to the edges to avoid skill shots quite cleverly. Being able to roll into a bush for instant stealth does seem nice, but it would carry the weight of instant-ambush stats with it. Having a dash alone makes Teemo able to dodge a lot more damage than he can currently, so I would simply have to watch what happens when Teemo enters bushes in game. If people felt jaded by him getting instant stealth, that would not feel good. Then again, if Teemo keeps finding himself unable to get away from people, then maybe instant stealth would be a great idea.

I would personally love to see Teemo out of lane and in the jungle 80% of the time. His laning phase is just so bipolar and not very fun, and on top of that he can't fulfill his identity as someone who gathers toxins from the jungle, who scouts, who sets traps and waits, who utilizes stealth.... it just doesn't make thematic sense for him to always be seen and to just make himself a defensive barrier top with mushrooms.

0Silverfang1 votes

For real. Based on how riot seems intent on adjusting all of their champions to make them all more thematically accurate I would be willing to bet that teemo is definitely on that list and they just aren't letting us know anything at all because they want it to be a surprise. They know that it will polarize league even more than Poppy's rework did.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

He's probably SOMEWHERE on that list.... buuuuuuuuuut I definitely know there are higher priorities... Teemo requires a fairly large overhaul and there are champions that need it more.

0Silverfang1 votes

True Dat dawg. B-)

I read an article where riot said that they were going to rework every champ, all 125. They admit it will take a while, but it is something to anticipate. In the mean time we shall continue to speculate based on what we've seen in previous reworks.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for the compliment on the tracking ability. I do think teemo should be considered as a viable jungle champion by more players.

OHHHHHHH I figured out what you meant by this. I had not seen your other thread and did not comment on the tracking, so I was somewhat confused. Having read your post though I think it could be very interesting. I think maybe that part could be tacked onto his mushrooms! Rather than a reveal it simply makes them leave foot prints for a while? Just a thought.

0Silverfang1 votes

My bad. I must have put that in the wrong response. Either that or I have gained clairvoyance. O_o

Lol but ty, that's actually a great idea.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

No no, it's fine. It actually prompted me to check out your profile. I'm going to try to take some time to check over some of your posts soon since you were so kind as to read mine. Reading the comments left on your page made me want to redo my post a bit so hopefully it reads a little easier now.

I definitely do like the idea of foot steps though. I would LOVE unique icons for each champions footprint. Imagine huge ChoGath feet!!!! XD AH

0Silverfang1 votes

Lol that would be awesome-larious! XD

And thanks for the view. I know riot rarely takes the community's suggestions but I like to think that if enough of us collaborate together they'll take notice. A player has to dream, right?

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Definitely. And to be honest, I think Riot takes a lot of player feedback seriously when it's thoughtful and not "OMFG RITO PLX OP OP OP QQ FIX ASSASSINS AND TANKS AND ADCS AND SUPPORTS AND GIVE DRAGON MOAR WINGS SO IT MAKES JUNGLERS FLY"....

0Silverfang1 votes

Lol awesome. I think it would be cool if our discussions got some red posts in them.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:AHarmlessTaco/AHarmlessTaco:_Teemo_Rework

NazZomLord2 votes

First of all, i rather like it. Teemo Jungle has been something i have been working on for a long time and is a super niche pick atm (Yi). Personally i find that this new kit would be amazing in the jungle...and thats it...Teemo is a swiss army knife of sorts that can be brought into different lanes to counter different problems, Darius top - Bring Teemo, Varus, Corki, Jhin mid- Bring Teemo, Draven, Vayne or AA reliant ADC- Bring Teemo. Want to support for some reason- Bring Teemo. This new kit would make laning teemo just lose up front power especially with him not being the worlds greatest roamer with no CC other than the slow from the shroom. He could control objectives but whats the point of just guarding them if iit would be extremely hard for the scout to take them, if a Nunu or WW, even a Lee SIn wants a Dragon they will get it regardless of a shroom. Yes Teemo is supposed to be the hardcore killer but making him the Rambo of just the jungle doesnt make him feel that way, its brings a level of tedious and a level of stress that a jungler has.

Personally I love the CSC idea and the stealth giving that little MP burst, would be a god send when a bruiser or tank rushes that Maw or Spirit. But my personal biggest issue is the build that would come from trying to make the most of it. item 3151 item 3135 item 3020 item 3094 item 3100 item 3089 This is what a build would roughly look like. Personally i see a HUGE problem. Great you have Mpen out the Wazoo, but not really enough AP to actually really make it worth while. With Lich bane you would lead into an ambush with a W out of a bush then toss a E at the opponent which would give the lich proc, then Q when they auto or simply AA when they run. Boom if its a squishy most likely dead or you chase them down about 6 Teemos and they are done. What about a Sion or a HP bruiser. You will literally do nothing, Great you are doing "true damage" but what happens when they have HP to back them up, even an Assassin would not have a hard time with Teemo any more due to him needing to land his W --> E --> Q combo or half of his damage is just gone from the equation.

Personally i think the build path for this kit would be a huge disaster, his only really noticable power spike would be his death cap and even then it would never be a groundbreaking one that would really make him grow in his kill potential. Obviously you would need to find a spot for the attack speed critical items which in my mind have no real good time to build. Most ADCs pick the zeal early and try to pick it up after their large AD item when its safest. His current kit would prioritize on Liandrys and Llich making a AS crit item the 4th item built or even the 5th.

Now i am all for higher base stats and lower scalings but this really does put a timer on the effectiveness of the champion depending on the kit. Essentially with this new kit he would turn into a Shaco like jungler, great counter jungling, early kill potential that is a true fear that you cant do much to stop around lvl 6. But once mid game hits he plummets and can only assassinate one target before dying or is good at objective control but cant fight another champion. And like Shaco will only be effective in the jungle.

I am rather into the idea of putting his E onto his Q and giving him another abililty, but an on hit skill shot isnt quite what should be filling the gap. Interupttig that machine gun of a dart gun hinders his damage hugely, a rather good shift of power would be to give on the on hit to his leading ability the Q with the normal blind making his E a fash bomb type of mechanic or something that woulld force the enemies movement such as how you need to move out of Graves W. A momentum mechanic would be just the best without having to press W for a hardly noticeable boost. Make the roll availabale from level 1 but give it a stupid long cooldown that scales down quite nicely. A spammable roll is toxic and annoying but one every 20 seconds can be the opening the enemy will go in on. And most of all the mushrooms. WIth your current idea i would be chaining these bad boys all day before a teamfight so that they couldnt see a foot in front of them every little trail would be filled to the brim with the toxic gas. If you couldnt walk through your own jungle without being able to escape a cloud that pings your location you would lose your mind. His current mushroom is actually one of my favorite aspects and making weaker means alot of power would need to shifted into the rest of his kit. The mushrooms are to reward the thoughtful lurking Teemos that have watched where the enemies go and cause disruption when they move in a pack. Personally %current health is the best route making Mpen still the best way to buff their damage perhaps a 1% per 75 would be the favorable route.

Overall i like it. Teemo Keep scouting!

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Thank you soooo much for replying. I found this to be very interesting.

I will come back to edit this comment but I definitely was thinking of something like a 1:1 scaling on CSC to MPen and high enough bases and low AP scaling to actually eliminate both Void Staff and Rabadons and to push Teemo towards buying Statikk Shiv / RFC as one of the first 2 items after Jungle item if he were Jg. Also, E was certainly not meant to be an in-combat skill. I would want it to have a ~1200 (1600 stealthed) range, small hitbox and really only good at ranged harass. This, combined with mushrooms slowly reducing sight range, would make it very frightening for enemy junglers to try to take Dragon. Imagine going to take it, hitting a mushroom, then having to move out of the mushroom range or else risk being oblivious to your surroundings and getting hit from afar with a RFC enhanced Longshot. That would sting a bit.

Like I said, I will come back soon with a much more in depth response to yours.

NazZomLord1 votes

{quoted}

Thank you soooo much for replying. I found this to be very interesting.

I will come back to edit this comment but I definitely was thinking of something like a 1:1 scaling on CSC to MPen and high enough bases and low AP scaling to actually eliminate both Void Staff and Rabadons and to push Teemo towards buying Statikk Shiv / RFC as one of the first 2 items after Jungle item if he were Jg. Also, E was certainly not meant to be an in-combat skill. I would want it to have a ~1200 (1600 stealthed) range, small hitbox and really only good at ranged harass. This, combined with mushrooms slowly reducing sight range, would make it very frightening for enemy junglers to try to take Dragon. Imagine going to take it, hitting a mushroom, then having to move out of the mushroom range or else risk being oblivious to your surroundings and getting hit from afar with a RFC enhanced Longshot. That would sting a bit.

Like I said, I will come back soon with a much more in depth response to yours.

i hate to say it but 1:1 Mpen might be too much. Almost to the point of the Mpen being wasted on 80% of squishies. And yes one good long range poke would be nice but that is such a huge shift that he wouldnt have near as much sustained damage in combat. You can always just run and hide eventually you will need to go in and when you do your damage will abyssmal and just not enough after the E, Q, Shroom (not in any real order). That just it the damage is over.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Alright I read everything and thought it all over and this is the best I can do to try to impress you. One last round of feedback from you and it's back to the drawing board for a while for me. So far your insight has been super helpful and very very very appreciated, so hopefully I'm not coming off poorly. I tried to address your concerns without changing anything substantial in the kit, just with the numbers and some tuning. If those don't help, then I will just have to think up a new E. My aim for Teemo is niche pick into early pressure junglers like Lee Sin and Shaco where Teemo can help his team stay alive and still get a lot of gold from doing so. His damage output is not through the roof due to emphasis on mobility, range, and vision control. He can deal substantial burst through items and keep the enemy team low through mushroom %current hp burn, and can severely hinder an enemy adc during a team fight with one well placed E.

  • CSC tuned to purposely overshoot squishies. Trade off for not needing Rabadons or Void Staff. Teemo's base damages from Q and items is meant to be good enough in handling squishies, while the MPen is aimed at keeping him relevant against all targets. I'm really banking on the DPS from items+MPen to help deal the damage that seems lacking overall vs tanks.
  • W, E and R are all utility based abilities with no real damage of their own, so Q can be as front loaded as needed to make it stand out in lane and in the jungle.
  • The E remains a long skill shot to proc Runic Echoes, RFC or Statikk Shiv, Lich Bane, the Q stack and blind. He trades DPS for the ability to hit them hard once in a while from afar. After a shroom and E, Teemo can decide to try to all in or to lurk further. They would be blind from the shroom and not know where he is.
  • % current HP damage on the poison should make it useful in lane and jungle and should hurt a lot with MPen.
  • The main idea behind E and % current HP is to get them scared when they hit a mushroom. The E will provide a large tool in making people afraid that Teemo will hit them from afar for burst damage after the mushroom has burned them.

Passive- Camouflage If Teemo stands still and takes no actions, or remains in brush, while taking no damage for 1.5 seconds, he gains stealth. If Teemo enters stealth while in a brush, he can move around and maintain his stealth as long as he doesn’t attack, use an ability or exit the brush. If he enters stealth while outside of a brush, moving or being moved also breaks his camouflage. Whenever Teemo breaks stealth he gains the Element of Surprise, granting him 30% bonus critical strike chance for 2 seconds. Teemo's Critical Strikes deal no additional physical damage. Instead, Teemo ignores 20% of his target’s magic resistance for every 30% of his Critical Strike Chance (applies before magic penetration).

Q- Jungle Toxins PASSIVE: Teemo’s basic attacks deal bonus magic damage and apply a stack of Kumungu Toxins on hit while Pushroom Traps apply 2 stacks to all enemies in range upon detonation (maximum 4 stacks). Enemies poisoned by Kumungu Toxins take 1% (+0.056% X Champion Level) (2%@18) of their Current Health as Magic Damage each second for 3 seconds. Damage is capped at 100 damage per second against monsters; additional applications of Kumungu Toxins refresh the duration. ACTIVE: Teemo’s next basic attack will blind the target, applying nearsight for 2 seconds. Casting Jungle Toxins will reset the auto attack timer.

  • COOLDOWN: 7 seconds
  • COST: 70 mana
  • MAGIC DAMAGE ON HIT: 10 / 25 / 40 / 55 / 70 (+30% AP)

W- Move Quick PASSIVE: Teemo gradually gains bonus flat movement speed while unstealthed and moving. The maximum bonus movement speed is increased by 50% and ramps twice as fast when moving towards and inside Mushroom Clouds, but is reduced upon taking damage and holding still. ACTIVE: Teemo rolls a short distance, setting his movement speed bonus to one-fifth of its maximum value. While not in brush, rolling into brush grants Camouflage.

  • COOLDOWN: 22 / 19 / 16 / 13 / 10 seconds
  • COST: 50 mana
  • Maximum bonus movement speed: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 (+1 per 10 AP)
  • Mushroom Cloud Detection Range: 3500
  • Roll Distance: 325

E- Longshot ACTIVE: Teemo inhales sharply and forcefully fires a dart in a line, dealing (100% AD) physical damage to the first enemy hit and applying on-hit and spell effects. Casting Jungle Toxins before casting this ability will cause Longshot to consume the buff; casting Jungle Toxins after casting this ability will not cause Longshot to blind on hit nor consume the buff. Longshot’s maximum range is increased while Teemo is stealthed.

  • COOLDOWN 18 / 15.5 / 13 / 10.5 / 8 seconds
  • COST: 60 mana
  • RANGE: 1400 / 1700

R- Scout’s Salvage PASSIVE: Minions and monsters killed by champions other than Teemo leave behind materials for Teemo to scavenge, granting gold and experience based on their size and numbers. These drops expire when camps respawn and have caps in lanes.

PASSIVE- Puffshroom Trap: Teemo stores a charge of Puffshroom Trap periodically, up to a maximum of 3. ACTIVE: Teemo sets a mushroom trap on the ground which stealths and arms after 0.5 seconds, lasting for up to 8 minutes. If an enemy steps on a trap, it detonates, applying a rapidly decaying slow to all enemies in range for 4 seconds and leaving a Mushroom Cloud for up to 4 seconds. Enemies that remain in the cloud have their vision gradually reduced, with the vision being gradually restored once leaving the cloud. Whenever a Mushroom Cloud is created, a small fading indicator is left on the minimap and in the Fog of War.

  • COOLDOWN: 0.25
  • RECHARGE TIME: 24 / 22.5 / 21 / 19.5 / 18
  • COST: 50 Mana + 1 Mushroom
  • CAST RANGE: 100
  • DETECTION RANGE 60
  • DETONATION / MUSHROOM CLOUD RANGE: 300
  • SLOW: 20 / 24 / 28 / 32 / 36%

item 1414 item 3094 item 3020 item 3100 item 3151 item 3157 item 3085 item 3285 item 3165 item 3006 item 3931 item 3091 item 3087

Thank youuuu.

NazZomLord2 votes

{quoted}

Alright I read everything and thought it all over and this is the best I can do to try to impress you. One last round of feedback from you and it's back to the drawing board for a while for me. So far your insight has been super helpful and very very very appreciated, so hopefully I'm not coming off poorly. I tried to address your concerns without changing anything substantial in the kit, just with the numbers and some tuning. If those don't help, then I will just have to think up a new E. My aim for Teemo is niche pick into early pressure junglers like Lee Sin and Shaco where Teemo can help his team stay alive and still get a lot of gold from doing so. His damage output is not through the roof due to emphasis on mobility, range, and vision control. He can deal substantial burst through items and keep the enemy team low through mushroom %current hp burn, and can severely hinder an enemy adc during a team fight with one well placed E.

  • CSC tuned to purposely overshoot squishies. Trade off for not needing Rabadons or Void Staff. Teemo's base damages from Q and items is meant to be good enough in handling squishies, while the MPen is aimed at keeping him relevant against all targets. I'm really banking on the DPS from items+MPen to help deal the damage that seems lacking overall vs tanks.

  • W, E and R are all utility based abilities with no real damage of their own, so Q can be as front loaded as needed to make it stand out in lane and in the jungle.

  • The E remains a long skill shot to proc Runic Echoes, RFC or Statikk Shiv, Lich Bane, the Q stack and blind. He trades DPS for the ability to hit them hard once in a while from afar. After a shroom and E, Teemo can decide to try to all in or to lurk further. They would be blind from the shroom and not know where he is.

  • % current HP damage on the poison should make it useful in lane and jungle and should hurt a lot with MPen.

  • The main idea behind E and % current HP is to get them scared when they hit a mushroom. The E will provide a large tool in making people afraid that Teemo will hit them from afar for burst damage after the mushroom has burned them.

Passive- Camouflage If Teemo stands still and takes no actions, or remains in brush, while taking no damage for 1.5 seconds, he gains stealth. If Teemo enters stealth while in a brush, he can move around and maintain his stealth as long as he doesn’t attack, use an ability or exit the brush. If he enters stealth while outside of a brush, moving or being moved also breaks his camouflage. Whenever Teemo breaks stealth he gains the Element of Surprise, granting him 30% bonus critical strike chance for 2 seconds. Teemo's Critical Strikes deal no additional physical damage. Instead, Teemo ignores 20% of his target’s magic resistance for every 30% of his Critical Strike Chance (applies before magic penetration).

Q- Jungle Toxins PASSIVE: Teemo’s basic attacks deal bonus magic damage and apply a stack of Kumungu Toxins on hit while Pushroom Traps apply 2 stacks to all enemies in range upon detonation (maximum 4 stacks). Enemies poisoned by Kumungu Toxins take 1% (+0.056% X Champion Level) (2%@18) of their Current Health as Magic Damage each second for 3 seconds. Damage is capped at 100 damage per second against monsters; additional applications of Kumungu Toxins refresh the duration. ACTIVE: Teemo’s next basic attack will blind the target, applying nearsight for 2 seconds. Casting Jungle Toxins will reset the auto attack timer.

  • COOLDOWN: 7 seconds

  • COST: 70 mana

  • MAGIC DAMAGE ON HIT: 10 / 25 / 40 / 55 / 70 (+30% AP)

W- Move Quick PASSIVE: Teemo gradually gains bonus flat movement speed while unstealthed and moving. The maximum bonus movement speed is increased by 50% and ramps twice as fast when moving towards and inside Mushroom Clouds, but is reduced upon taking damage and holding still. ACTIVE: Teemo rolls a short distance, setting his movement speed bonus to one-fifth of its maximum value. While not in brush, rolling into brush grants Camouflage.

  • COOLDOWN: 22 / 19 / 16 / 13 / 10 seconds
  • COST: 50 mana
  • Maximum bonus movement speed: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 (+1 per 10 AP)
  • Mushroom Cloud Detection Range: 3500
  • Roll Distance: 325

E- Longshot ACTIVE: Teemo inhales sharply and forcefully fires a dart in a line, dealing (100% AD) physical damage to the first enemy hit and applying on-hit and spell effects. Casting Jungle Toxins before casting this ability will cause Longshot to consume the buff; casting Jungle Toxins after casting this ability will not cause Longshot to blind on hit nor consume the buff. Longshot’s maximum range is increased while Teemo is stealthed.

  • COOLDOWN 18 / 15.5 / 13 / 10.5 / 8 seconds

  • COST: 60 mana

  • RANGE: 1400 / 1700

R- Scout’s Salvage PASSIVE: Minions and monsters killed by champions other than Teemo leave behind materials for Teemo to scavenge, granting gold and experience based on their size and numbers. These drops expire when camps respawn and have caps in lanes.

PASSIVE- Puffshroom Trap: Teemo stores a charge of Puffshroom Trap periodically, up to a maximum of 3. ACTIVE: Teemo sets a mushroom trap on the ground which stealths and arms after 0.5 seconds, lasting for up to 8 minutes. If an enemy steps on a trap, it detonates, applying a rapidly decaying slow to all enemies in range for 4 seconds and leaving a Mushroom Cloud for up to 4 seconds. Enemies that remain in the cloud have their vision gradually reduced, with the vision being gradually restored once leaving the cloud. Whenever a Mushroom Cloud is created, a small fading indicator is left on the minimap and in the Fog of War.

  • COOLDOWN: 0.25
  • RECHARGE TIME: 24 / 22.5 / 21 / 19.5 / 18
  • COST: 50 Mana + 1 Mushroom
  • CAST RANGE: 100
  • DETECTION RANGE 60
  • DETONATION / MUSHROOM CLOUD RANGE: 300
  • SLOW: 20 / 24 / 28 / 32 / 36%

item 1414 item 3094 item 3020 item 3100 item 3151 item 3157 item 3085 item 3285 item 3165 item 3006 item 3931 item 3091 item 3087

Thank youuuu.

Personally i absolutely love it, when reading this i can already think of a pretty good build.item 3094 item 3078 item 3285 item 3151 item 3124 item 3009. Although i still think it rather weird how confined this kit is to the jungle. But besides this i would definitely work with it.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

WooT! Thank you. My hopes are that with a kit like this Teemo could still play in top lane by leveling Q first and picking up an early Shiv. If nothing else, top lane Teemo could really forego the E or R and just get a lot of points in Q and W to keep up with the enemy laner. The main idea behind having 4 basic skills like Udyr was to actually try to keep Teemo viable no matter how the player chooses to play. Top lane rolling dart-firing monster (Q+W)? Early trap-setting gold-collecting scout jungler (W+R)? Or even a heavy hitting sniper / ambusher (Q+E).

All that aside though, thanks for the input and I'll keep thinking about the E. Flash bombs seem cool but I was told once to try to keep a champions vulnerabilities and strengths clear and obvious. I want a jack of many trades Teemo, but I still want him to have some very clear weaknesses. I just have to decide what those weaknesses should be.

NazZomLord1 votes

{quoted}

WooT! Thank you. My hopes are that with a kit like this Teemo could still play in top lane by leveling Q first and picking up an early Shiv. If nothing else, top lane Teemo could really forego the E or R and just get a lot of points in Q and W to keep up with the enemy laner. The main idea behind having 4 basic skills like Udyr was to actually try to keep Teemo viable no matter how the player chooses to play. Top lane rolling dart-firing monster (Q+W)? Early trap-setting gold-collecting scout jungler (W+R)? Or even a heavy hitting sniper / ambusher (Q+E).

All that aside though, thanks for the input and I'll keep thinking about the E. Flash bombs seem cool but I was told once to try to keep a champions vulnerabilities and strengths clear and obvious. I want a jack of many trades Teemo, but I still want him to have some very clear weaknesses. I just have to decide what those weaknesses should be.

The biggest weakness is the fact he relies on sustained damage and the ability to kite, once someone gets near or can take the beginning burst they will just take him down.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Hi again,

Quick question: Can you point out anything in particular that you LIKE in this rework? Things that maybe illustrate where I want to go with it that you deem healthy?

Also, as a Teemo player can you list some of the major problems that Teemo has and tell me if I address any of them with this rework? Maybe if I know the problems I can better address the E and kit overall.

I was talking to The Djinn above and I feel like maybe I went the wrong direction with everything and I'm not sure which direction I need to go.

NazZomLord1 votes

{quoted}

Hi again,

Quick question: Can you point out anything in particular that you LIKE in this rework? Things that maybe illustrate where I want to go with it that you deem healthy?

Also, as a Teemo player can you list some of the major problems that Teemo has and tell me if I address any of them with this rework? Maybe if I know the problems I can better address the E and kit overall.

I was talking to The Djinn above and I feel like maybe I went the wrong direction with everything and I'm not sure which direction I need to go.

Haha, ill be glad to help.

What Teemo is currently-

Currently Teemo is a supposedly DOT lane builly that takes his biggest advantage in lane when fighting late and mid game dominant bruisers and assassins. With his blind and rather high sustained damage throughout the game he can apply pressure to keep them off of farm and kills so that needed items will take much longer too get.

His shrooms play a large role in controlling enemy movement, waves, objectives, and can be even used as a form a prep for a teamfight. They are potentially why is he is so hated. His blind is the main form of personal utility that can change the tide of a fight quickly when fighting a large array of opponents this gives him the needed dueling potential. His W makes him run fast, nuff said. The DOT poison from his E is truly why he will win a lane and can potentially become a large threat to the bruisers and other ball of stats. It allows the slow destruction and wearing down of a tank with sustained damage that is reliable. My personal favorite part of his entire kit the stealth. Nothing is better than waiting in a heavily shroomed area to watch a ADC or helpless enemy get bombed then killed with an array of darts. This allows his presence to become a huge problem he can be everywhere at once and always make the enemies paranoid. The moving while stealthed in brush is a huge buff and i use it heavily along with the stealth while moving in brush. The brush near red is great when you round the corner they lose sight of you for a second and you can stealth the go back around losing most enemies.

He lacks any form of burst and is specially a objective controlling sustain damage champion. He can have a large effect on the enemy with stealth tactics and coordination. He has quite a bit of MS meaning he can outrun a majority of champions that would try to give chase. The good scaling on his Q and E make for excellent trades and even some high kill potential.

What Teemo lacks-

Teemo CANNOT win a fight with a burst champion with any form of burst. He is made to fight the bruiser meat shields such as Garen, Darius, Nasus. He has started to fall behind in the time where it seems almost everyone is starting to get some form of mobility or awesome mobility killer. As of right now he gains passive MS and a small burst of MS. His blind falls in the category of what Quinns was where it would not allow AAs but still high vision and personally the new blind would be the best way to passively buff him. When behind Teemo is literally worth nothing sure he can snipe a ADC or get a kill off of a shroom but these become rare with the scanners becoming heavily relied on. The only true form of burst he has is a Q and lich proc giving a decent amount of damage but this cannot be done in quick succession unless a W is thrown in for chasing or a CDR build is used.

What Teemo should be-

Teemo currently play quite well but really lacks defining traits that are a reliable chase or form of movement (why i love the W roll idea). The new form of blind that would work fantastic thematically and in the way that his kit is supposed to work. Chaining a well timed blind with a quick shroom or roll can leave a enemy wondering where you went to quickly get shroomed leading to a barrage of darts leading to a kill. Sadly with the mushrooms losing the longetivity they have become a less efficent objective control option and now are used to cover a lane or saved to prep for a team fight. No longer can one be thrown at a blue, drag, and Baron and know that they are protected from being sneaked. His E while being a effective DOT and form of damage doesnt feel as good as a well timed Q lich, although the sustained damage is great for trades it doesnt pack as large of a punch as it should when in a prolonged stand off (APC botlane).

Teemo should be aa jack of all trades with a kit that can be adatped to situations such as the burst lich proccer that waits in the shadows to a sustained damamge nightmare for ADCS and assassins. Even a objective controlling terrorist that each shroom will shred a tank for half their health but lacks the upfront fighting ability. Small changes are needed that will help, a full rework is not truly needed.

Personally the new blind on his Q.

A small roll on his W into invis while going into a bush would be a godsend. Smaller scaling or no scaling with % health on each shroom with a slightly long DOT effect and less damage per second with a minimum of 8 minute timers.

A stacking poison effect kind of like twitches but with a AP scaling that will give some magic damage that applies on hit effects.

He doesn't need to be rethought of just changed to better suit where the game is going.

Teemo Keep Scouting~

P.S. Idk if this helps, i just typed this up rather quick. I do rather like the idea of jungle only Teemo but it takes away his potential as a pick for any position and a Teemo of all trades.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Thanks, it means a lot to have someone to talk things through with. I'm going to try to REALLY tear into this and get my thoughts straight. This gave me a lot of points to focus on and put out of a lot of questions, so whether you respond to everything or just skim it will be super helpful either way.

Currently Teemo is supposedly a DOT lane bully whose biggest advantage is in lane when fighting late and mid game dominant bruisers and assassins. With his blind and rather high sustained damage throughout the game he can apply pressure to keep them off of farm and kills so that needed items will take much longer to get.

Okay so Teemo is a stall tactic (vs a particular group of champions) that relies on his hit and run tactic and the ability to block AAs. I think this is the root of his 'Crush or be Crushed' identity. Teem currently tries to take advantage of those without range who rely on auto attacks, items and levels to get going and he just tries to shit on them before they get to their power spikes, after which they destroy Teemo if he isn't ahead. Personally, I think this is just a massive problem rather than an identity... kind of like how Akali just 'sucks pre6'.

His shrooms play a large role in controlling enemy movement, waves, objectives, and can be even used as a form a prep for a teamfight. They are potentially why is he is so hated.

I love the versatility on these things, so how do I make them less toxic? Should they be limited in what they do? This is Teemo's bread and butter ability and I think it needs to live up to the dream... scouting, team prep, objective control... those things seem meaningful. High DPS and waveclear, as much as they are needed, just don't seem to fit. Thoughts? I like the % current HP because it leaves a little bit of DPS and waveclear, but gives much more power budget to scouting.

His blind is the main form of personal utility that can change the tide of a fight quickly when fighting a large array of opponents this gives him the needed dueling potential. His W makes him run fast, nuff said.

Game-changer Q and some flighty-ness.... check.

The DOT poison from his E is truly why he will win a lane and can potentially become a large threat to the bruisers and other ball of stats. It allows the slow destruction and wearing down of a tank with sustained damage that is reliable.

This is where I start getting muddled.... he starts out good vs bruisers BUT..... (see below)

My personal favorite part of his entire kit the stealth. Nothing is better than waiting in a heavily shroomed area to watch a ADC or helpless enemy get bombed then killed with an array of darts.

...he ends later on wanting to assassinate people and ADCs and kind of just dies to any beefy guy that can catch him. Is that how I want to keep it? Ah.... I really think I would like to have one or the other. I want a Teemo that can deal with bruisers and tanks OR assassinate squishies, not both.

This allows his presence to become a huge problem he can be everywhere at once and always make the enemies paranoid. The moving while stealthed in brush is a huge buff and i use it heavily along with the stealth while moving in brush. The brush near red is great when you round the corner they lose sight of you for a second and you can stealth the go back around losing most enemies.

This is the part I love and want to focus on. I want a Teemo that can be felt across the map. I want fear and paranoia, but also more team work and safety nets for allies. I want the little devil to do more than just watch people die to mushrooms. I want him to hit that lore-level of unrepentant killer that ambushes people when they get low, but also seems super friendly towards his allies.

He lacks any form of burst and is specially a objective controlling sustain damage champion. He can have a large effect on the enemy with stealth tactics and coordination. He has quite a bit of MS meaning he can outrun a majority of champions that would try to give chase. The good scaling on his Q and E make for excellent trades and even some high kill potential.

Should I keep this element? Or should I make him able to burst if he builds for it? I see the potential for a lot of kiting and ambushing and thoughtful play, but I have to figure out the crit part and his identity. I am really leaning towards a bruiser/tank killer and less towards burst mage.... I like the idea of ambushing when they are low, and not 100-0'ing people.

What Teemo lacks- Teemo CANNOT win a fight with a burst champion with any form of burst. He is made to fight the bruiser meat shields such as Garen, Darius, Nasus.

This is good, this tells me that I really do just want to focus on making him an answer to Juggernauts and Tanks and Bruisers. I like him being susceptible to assassins and mages in fights, but I think I would like a way for him to keep his distance from them and still be useful. A scout doesn't pick fights with people who can gut him... and he tries to not pick fights really at all except in that rogue-like ambush way. This tells me I really want to focus on the Jugger-shred and less on the burst side of things... What do you think?

He has started to fall behind in the time where it seems almost everyone is starting to get some form of mobility or awesome mobility killer. As of right now he gains passive MS and a small burst of MS.

More mobility needed.... but I still want him to be susceptible to assassins and burst champions. How do I make Teemo get away from Darius but not Zed... Should Lee Sin kick Teemo's face in, or should Teemo win if he catches a low Lee Sin? DOES THE NEW BLIND WORK ON LEE SIN? (see below)

His blind falls in the category of what Quinns was where it would not allow AAs but still high vision and personally the new blind would be the best way to passively buff him.

Does this sound like a reasonable answer to the above problem? Because that's what I need it to be. I need just enough blind and roll to get away from the bruisers but not the assassins.

When behind Teemo is literally worth nothing sure he can snipe a ADC or get a kill off of a shroom but these become rare with the scanners becoming heavily relied on.

Okay, so if Teemo can reliably E longshot with Q blind an ADC and has more mushrooms to negate sweepers a bit, would that help make him useful even if behind? Do I want Teemo to be feast or famine? Personally I like intermediate zone, leaning towards the support end honestly. As a scout, I think he should be a supportesque APC VS Bruisers. I think that is a fair trade to not be able to kill everyone equally.

The only true form of burst he has is a Q and lich proc giving a decent amount of damage but this cannot be done in quick succession unless a W is thrown in for chasing or a CDR build is used.

So if I orient Teemo to bruiser killing and items like Ludens and Rapid Fire Cannon, I won't really lose a lot of burst.... Which might be good. I can keep that theme and go less on burst and more on DOT DPS. I just need to figure out where the burst from Lich Bane and Ludens and RFC can be useful... I want the burst to be Teemo's finisher and that's it. I want to DOT them from 100-40 and burst the remaining 30-40% HP.

What Teemo should be- Teemo currently plays quite well but really lacks defining traits that are a reliable chase or form of movement (why i love the W roll idea). The new form of blind that would work fantastic thematically and in the way that his kit is supposed to work. Chaining a well timed blind with a quick shroom or roll can leave a enemy wondering where you went to quickly get shroomed leading to a barrage of darts leading to a kill.

Perfect, I like it. Slow burn from shrooms into a high intensity kill zone situation. A very dynamic game of wait and watch while the enemy suffers from blinding burning mushrooms, only to find Teemo ambushing them.

Sadly with the mushrooms losing the longevity they have become a less efficient objective control option and now are used to cover a lane or saved to prep for a team fight. No longer can one be thrown at a blue, drag, and Baron and know that they are protected from being sneaked.

This, along with the Crush or be Crushed element top, is probably THE biggest area that needs attention. Teemo needs his scouting potential back.

His E while being a effective DOT and form of damage doesnt feel as good as a well timed Q lich, although the sustained damage is great for trades it doesnt pack as large of a punch as it should when in a prolonged stand off (APC botlane).

This is a very good point. Is Teemo a hit and run champion or a machine gunner? This is the biggest problem with the current E.... It defeats itself because it encourages hit and run but covers its own weakness by giving on hit for the machine gun. This should be the balance point: build for machine gun OR hit and run. Thoughts?

Teemo should be aa jack of all trades with a kit that can be adapted to situations such as the burst lich proccer that waits in the shadows to a sustained damage nightmare for ADCS and assassins. Even a objective controlling terrorist that each shroom will shred a tank for half their health but lacks the upfront fighting ability. Small changes are needed that will help, a full rework is not truly needed.

This right here, this is where I need to focus now. Agreed?

Personally the new blind on his Q. A small roll on his W into stealth while going into a bush would be a godsend. Smaller scaling or no scaling with % health on each shroom with a slightly long DOT effect and less damage per second with a minimum of 8 minute timers. A stacking poison effect like twitches but with a AP scaling that will give some magic damage that applies on hit effects. He doesn't need to be rethought of just changed to better suit where the game is going.

Where is it going?

P.S. Idk if this helps. I do rather like the idea of jungle only Teemo but it takes away his potential as a pick for any position and a Teemo of all trades.

AH why can't he lane with this? What can I do to make him lane better??? Also, this was helpful!!!!

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:AHarmlessTaco/AHarmlessTaco:_Teemo_Rework

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Ok I left a massive response... I ran out of text characters for the comment and my brain was pretty dead. I have a much better idea of where to look now.

Also, if you want to glance the above thread (just the last comment), Djinn and I are debating some stuff and I'm kind of curious what you think. I'm having some serious difficulty digesting what he is saying and I'm not sure if it's because I'm being too proud to see his point of view or what.

EX: he wants poison ticks to have a chance to crit with small tick intervals based on CSC; this results in an overall % increase in dps which is the same thing as saying %crit chance = %MPen..... except that with the latter it doesn't crush squishies and focuses on tankier people.

Sorry there is a TON of reading.... it keeps growing.

EDIT: Ideas? While in mushroom clouds, Teemo’s enemies take increased damage from all sources. Teemo deal’s increased damage to enemies caught in Mushroom Clouds. ^The increased damage scales with CSC.^ Allied champions near Teemo gain his movement speed bonus towards Mushroom Clouds. Q nearsight duration scales with R, while R damage output scales with Q. Teemo gains AP, gold, and Exp from salvaged camps and lanes. Decreased base on Q, scales up Rabadon’s, Lich Bane, Nashors, Luden’s and forces On-Hit Teemo’s to build AP. AP for burst builds; AS/Crit for stacking and MPen? Scrap E, make R the new E, give Teemo a new ult? W roll ignores CC (slippery little dude); dodge Darius pull and major stuns? % Current HP damage scale with CSC? Roll CD scales with bonus MS? E CD scales with AS? R CD ticks faster while in brush/stealthed? R CD scales with CSC?

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

I like the things you described above in your abilities, and I do think a change to his abilities to make them synergize with crit chance is needed, since the on-hit of his (current) E doesn't even crit, but then you have Stattik and RFC magic damage critting. Almost makes no sense when you think about it.

The Ultimate:

Is this a 5 level skill now? Or does it level up passively? The numbers for the cooldown is a little confusing.

I like the sound of the new E you came up with, but I think in terms of a "scout", it should act like Karma's enhanced Q where it leaves a circle that provides vision (either from stealth or all the time) and provides that same vision even if it misses an enemy. It would be nice to have some long range scouting tools besides his shrooms, and those do cost a lot of mana if you are trying to provide zone control and use your other skills in a fight.

I think the Q should deal more damage based on how many stacks of poison are on a target. Just feels better as an auto-reset if used in the jungle or an extended fight, as what I've experienced when I've played Teemo Jungle and Lane. The Q changes would actually feel good as an assassination tool if they step on a shroom, if the Q deals more damage based on the stacks.

I think the W should keep the bonus movement speed after he rolls, because his W has always been used as a tool to help him escape. Probably add a slow cleansing or slow-immunity for a few seconds after rolling.

Overall, good suggestions. I love Teemo to death, but he is sort of underwhelming, especially with how the game feels right now because Teemo just can't do as much as other champs can do, in terms of range and contribution.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

First off, thanks for stopping by and reading things over!

I like the things you described above in your abilities, and I do think a change to his abilities to make them synergize with crit chance is needed, since the on-hit of his (current) E doesn't even crit, but then you have Stattik and RFC magic damage critting. Almost makes no sense when you think about it.

I'm currently internally debating how to handle Crit appropriately, though I am glad you like its presence. The main problem is consistency: if the poison ticks seldom and can crit, it becomes very unreliable and that's been a problem with ADCs lately; if the poison ticks quickly, it will simply turn into a % increase in damage which is what %MPen is except that I limit it to bruisers/tanks. Also, how does a dart crit thematically? That part kills me! Side note, Stattik Shiv can crit while RFC cannot.

The Ultimate: Is this a 5 level skill now? Or does it level up passively? The numbers for the cooldown is a little confusing.

R is now a basic ability, you can start with it if you want to ward up lanes and grab enemy jungle camp gold. (VS Shaco perhaps) Cooldown on Teemo's mushrooms (on the Wiki) refers to time between casts. If you have 3 mushrooms, you can place one every .25 seconds. This differs from the recharge time, which functions more like standard cooldown.

I like the sound of the new E you came up with, but I think in terms of a "scout", it should act like Karma's enhanced Q where it leaves a circle that provides vision (either from stealth or all the time) and provides that same vision even if it misses an enemy. It would be nice to have some long range scouting tools besides his shrooms, and those do cost a lot of mana if you are trying to provide zone control and use your other skills in a fight.

Mana costs on mushrooms down by half, recharge time down too! Shroom vision should be at its peak with these changes. That said, definitely something to consider! Thematically how would a dart give vision.... hmmm...

I think the Q should deal more damage based on how many stacks of poison are on a target. Just feels better as an auto-reset if used in the jungle or an extended fight, as what I've experienced when I've played Teemo Jungle and Lane. The Q changes would actually feel good as an assassination tool if they step on a shroom, if the Q deals more damage based on the stacks.

The Q active in this rework is meant to be saved for self-peel and disorientation, so the Q active itself deals no damage save for its auto-resetting capabilities. However, if you meant the on-hit damage dealing more per stack, that's something I can work with. I actually might really like that idea.

I think the W should keep the bonus movement speed after he rolls, because his W has always been used as a tool to help him escape. Probably add a slow cleansing or slow-immunity for a few seconds after rolling.

The W is a touchy subject. The roll adds a lot of safety that Teemo didn't have before and I want it to be used wisely and not for added mobility while roaming. Since I am using a momentum based passive, rolling during it SHOULD throw Teemo out of his groove a little bit. That's why I set it to 20% of the momentum value upon rolling. ALSO if he rolls while stealthed, that is an immediate boost in speed and helps if he has been reset to 0% by enemy damage. I like the idea of slow-cleanse; I was thinking I may want to make Teemo immune to CC during his roll too since it would be so short. I want him to be able to dodge Darius pulls!

Overall, good suggestions. I love Teemo to death, but he is sort of underwhelming, especially with how the game feels right now because Teemo just can't do as much as other champs can do, in terms of range and contribution.

Thank you! I agree that he can feel very underwhelming, especially when behind. And no one likes a Teemo that is ahead either...

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

I think with the critting magic damage, I was also thinking of Corki but forgot to mention him. I just think it's unfair how he gets critting Magic damage but the original AP adc can't.

The vision dart could be like a flare or something like that.

I do like the idea of a varied level up system similar to Udyr, it opens up more avenues and play pattern for the little guy.

CC immune would be pretty cool for during the roll. Would help with some difficult lanes for those "gotta get outta town" moments.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Gameplay-wise I agree that if one AP marksman gets to crit, they should all have a shot at it. HOWEVER, thematically I'm still trying to figure out how a dart crits. They can't impact anywhere special because all they need is to pierce skin and deliver toxin.... and it's not going to be a super deadly poison one second and not the next.... so there is some extra considering to do when it comes to "should it make sense?"

Hm. I guess that could be neat if it granted vision on who it hit or where it landed.

Thanks! I was aiming for more adaptability, especially since Teemo's ult was never really.... AN ULT... in the first place.

Cool. Glad you like the roll idea. :)

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

Gameplay-wise I agree that if one AP marksman gets to crit, they should all have a shot at it. HOWEVER, thematically I'm still trying to figure out how a dart crits. They can't impact anywhere special because all they need is to pierce skin and deliver toxin.... and it's not going to be a super deadly poison one second and not the next.... so there is some extra considering to do when it comes to "should it make sense?"[/quote]

Poison darts can definitely crit -- imagine getting hit in the buttocks with a poisonous dart vs. getting hit directly in a major artery. The latter will kill you MUCH faster.

And main reason I was aiming for the poison critting is that it's effectively just turning crit into a damage multiplier on the poison if you spread the ticks out fast enough, similar to building more raw AP. This Teemo design has pretty awful scaling, and Teemo is supposed to be a Marksman, so that sort of high-damage against all targets is rather important -- he's not going to excel if his niche is map scouting and anti-tank SPECIFICALLY, since there are few times when you want your anti-tank threat potentially far from the rest of your team, where you need the anti-tank to discourage engages.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I guess that's fair. As for the scaling and anti-tankness I'm working on that still. I've bumped up the AP scaling on the on-hit portion and directly tied CSC to the burn portion. I am trying to make his niche map scouting and anti-tank so I am being very careful in how I handle it. I have given him more mobility and range, so while it looks like his AP ratios are low, after he has a few items he can apply his damage from outside enemy range quite easily.

Also, where he has less damage, he also has the new blind which can grant him more time vs an ADC that he didn't have before. I am still looking for ways to distinguish burst from tank-shred though.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}I am trying to make his niche map scouting and anti-tank so I am being very careful in how I handle it. I have given him more mobility and range, so while it looks like his AP ratios are low, after he has a few items he can apply his damage from outside enemy range quite easily.

I think that's part of the issue though -- we have so few map scouting characters already (Quinn, Ashe, and that's about it) that putting one specifically in an anti-tank niche -- especially one designed to not remain by the team at all times -- seems unnecessarily limiting. With the %MR shred I'm likely only to pick Teemo into teams with 2+ targets likely to stack bonus MR, or simply not pick Teemo. His vision-granting is made secondary if his damage scaling is so enemy-dependent, especially if you had intended him to be able to split-push at all, as split-push Teemo is often an AS based build (and thus crit based in this current day and age).

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:AHarmlessTaco/AHarmlessTaco:_Teemo_Rework

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

Im liking it. Makes him look like a viable jungler but at the same time there's the ability to go in lane. Now all we need is for Riot to see this and gain inspiration :)

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Glad you liked it. Just thought I'd give everyone on this thread an update on where things went. :) Tis a shame that my new thread didn't gain much traction though. Darn things are so hard to make visible I feel like. XD

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