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@RIOT: Vayne and Riven should, design-wise, not both be meta, right?

AHarmlessTaco··39 votes·12,533 views

Vayne is and has always been regarded as a prime late-game duelist and tank buster, but looking at all of my recent games, actual tanks have been extremely scarce. When considering her pick and win rates, it should be in her core design that neither should be high in a meta where there are simply no tanks. As much as people complain about Riven, myself included, she (Riven) is the exact opposite in that she should be extremely strong in a meta without tanks.

My main point here is that I believe that seeing both popular should be a very strong indicator that something is very wrong. Players should never feel like they can't pick a tank into Riven because Vayne is strong, but also feel bad about picking Caitlyn into Vayne because Riven is strong. The boards have been in a bit of an uproar about damage being too high and tanks being weak and frankly, I think this is one of the clearest examples validating those concerns.

I am not saying Vayne didn't need some love, but she should not have been given the Q cooldown buff during her ultimate without consideration of how buffing her into viability outside of a tank meta would push tanks completely out, thus allowing champions like Riven to thrive to the extent that she does. I for one, would really appreciate if someone at RIOT could address the situation and explain the design philosophy behind it, because I'm really not sure what's up. Kayle, with her true damage, should also be fairly weak in a non-tank meta, but she is doing very well too.

All in all I just sort of feel in the dark as to what RIOT's design values are right now because all I have seen in the past few patches is buffing damage at the expense of defense due to pro play specific balancing and I think it's really hurting everyone else. I'm not trying to complain about champions being busted, just something really does feel off with those two champions being so common.

57 Comments

La Bello17 votes

Riven was never a tank buster. she is a duelist that really operates 100% independent of meta.

she has no actual "niche" or role. She is just a wrecking ball of physical damage who's sole existence in the game is basically validated as "but her playstyle is really unique". At her BEST maybe is she a small part to a wombo-combo comp using her windslash to execute people but besides that her kit and design is EXTREMELY selfish not very team-work friendly and mostly existing in it owns little world. Nothing will ever be done about her because she only exist to be a one-trick-magnet and create a reliable recurring source of income.

Vayne I agree though. I really wish Riot would either DROP the tank-busting part of kit for her duelist part. If you want a "tank melter" thats always what KogMaw was for imo. Literally spits ACID to MELT tanks. I dont get why Vayne gets to have the role of Assassin but ALSO the role of "tank killer" . Okay so she beats Assassins...and she also beats tanks? so she counters literally BOTH ends of the champion spectrum?

Silver bolt rework has honestly been a long time coming but I think Riot marks as too "iconic" to part with despite how bad of a rap and how it has nothing to do with vayne lore slant (dark-magic hunter most recently retconned to beastie hunter to save a tad bit o face). I really think SIlver Bolts should have some sort of different effect thats not just %max hp burst.

y0r1ck3 votes

[{quoted}](name=La Bello,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XvhuHXEm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-05T22:26:24.374+0000)

Riven was never a tank buster. she is a duelist that really operates 100% independent of meta.

she has no actual "niche" or role. She is just a wrecking ball of physical damage. At her BEST maybe is she a small part to a wombo-combo comp using her windslash to execute people but besides that her kit nd design is EXTREMELY selfish not very team-work friendly and mostly existing in it owns little world.

OP didn't say riven is a tank buster. Just that in tankless metas she does well because tanks have the tools (I'm assuming beefiness and cc) to shut her down.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Yeah thats what I was trying to say.

AHarmlessTaco2 votes

My apologies, I did not mean to imply that Riven is a tank-buster. Quite the opposite actually. Due to her kit possessing no % health damage or innate armor penetration, as well as dealing 100% physical damage, she is in theory supposed to be hard countered by tanks. She is a skirmisher designed around constantly making picks similar to Quinn, but she trades high out of combat movement speed and range for in combat mobility crowd control. Tanks naturally put up a barrier between her and squishy targets with their CC, but their absence is making Riven consistently a strong pick. My argument was that Vayne being strong is one of the most potent deterrents to people choosing tanks and that her recent buffs to make her viable outside of a tank meta has virtually annihilated the viability of tanks being played at all, creating a very frustrated community. Of course, Vayne isn't the only culprit, but she is the most prominent example.

EDIT: Hey no fair, you changed your post after I responded. But yes, Vayne is, design-wise, supposed to be a tank-busting hypercarry duelist and as such is supposed to be able to challenge tanks and bruisers 1v1 without heavy peel from her team. The issue is that she is dueling everyone with ease right now, when she is fundamentally supposed to lose to other ADCs to keep her balanced. Her DPS and target access to squishy champions should always be gated and penalized in exchange for her power against high-health melee champions, and we are just not seeing that right now.

La Bello1 votes

{quoted}

-->as dealing 100% physical damage,

--> in theory supposed to be hard countered by tanks

Tidus Laugh.mp3

item 3071 item 3036 item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/20/Conqueror_rune.png/revision/latest?cb=20180314225947

hilariously enough its the MELEE PHYSICAL champs in the game that are built to wallop tanks the best as a LOT of them pack %armor shred of some sort or %max hp damage.

tanks are """unfun"" and not in line with the clown fiesta Battlerite vision they have for the game so Riot made sure going forward Tanks would only ever be relevant midgame against squishy marksmen that are still on IE/Zeal part of the arms race. You point out a Physical MELEE champion and I will point out a ability somewhere in their kit that is made to blow out a resist stacker. the only "tanks" that can beat out Riven are the Juggernaut abominations masquerading as tanks like Mundo or Tahm Kench. a Malphite or Rammus with 700 armor actually wont win against her if her IQ is above room temp

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I'm not going to disagree with the point you're making in that pretty much everyone can very easily circumvent armor with items/masteries with very little trade-off. That doesn't change the fact that design-wise certain champions are innately weak to armor stacking:

Riven Zed LeeSin Rengar Talon Caitlyn Draven Graves Jinx Kalista Lucian Quinn Sivir Tristana Twitch Xayah

voltaicspear1 votes

I really hope riot brings back tanks to the game they are desperately needed. Some of those champs are weak to tanks. And it seems on the pbe there are some changes targetted at tanks so im glad to see that atleast.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I don't see anything on the current PBE other than a slight nerf to BoTRK but the Cinderhulk change went live so yeah I hope that helps a little bit. I don't think either change will really bring tanks back though unfortunately.

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=La Bello,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XvhuHXEm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-05T22:26:24.374+0000)

%max hp burst.

Hardly burst if it takes more than 1 attack/ability to activate.

Burst is something like a Jhin 4th Shot, Lux R, Veigar R.

General Esdeath 8 votes

I've seen champ select screens where people in support, top, and jungle refuse to pick tanks because "they picked Vayne"

This might be having a slight effect on that

Also her W is bullshit

AHarmlessTaco2 votes

I am very much the same way, I hate picking tanks into Vayne. I've seen other people say the same thing. I don't know if she is the cause of tanks' low popularity, but she certainly isn't helping.

Her W is, design-wise, supposed to fill a tank-busting role. The problem is that she has access to this ability and can be played without consequence vs non-tank teams, making her much more catch-all than she should be.

General Esdeath 1 votes

{quoted}

I am very much the same way, I hate picking tanks into Vayne. I've seen other people say the same thing. I don't know if she is the cause of tanks' low popularity, but she certainly isn't helping.

Her W is, design-wise, supposed to fill a tank-busting role. The problem is that she has access to this ability and can be played without consequence vs non-tank teams, making her much more catch-all than she should be.

If she only did some true damage it wouldn't be as bad, but % max HP true damage has 0 actual counterplay.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Mmmm building attack speed slowing items is technically a form of counterplay, as is simply going damage instead of building defensively. Not saying either option is great, but its more than 0.

General Esdeath 1 votes

{quoted}

Mmmm building attack speed slowing items is technically a form of counterplay, as is simply going damage instead of building defensively. Not saying either option is great, but its more than 0.

Works for Vayne but the mechanic itself has no counterplay. If it was on a spell like Nasus Q, there's nothing to mitigate the damage.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

item 3102 maybe? hahaha no you're totally right and I get where you're coming from. As a tank it does feel really bad to not be able to do anything about the damage type. It is supposed to be guaranteed damage at the cost of lower physical and magic damage, but Im just not seeing it with Vayne.

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

{quoted}

I've seen champ select screens where people in support, top, and jungle refuse to pick tanks because "they picked Vayne"

This might be having a slight effect on that

Also her W is bullshit

I mean I do the same thing usually.

Why bother playing what I like Darius Illaoi Chogath Garen Nasus into that fucking champion. The second she gets rageblade I might as well be sona-tier tank. She has no skillshots so you cant really outplay her damage.

voltaicspear1 votes

I agree rageblade is an item thats extremely overpowered on Vayne but on other champs it isn't as much. I hope they kill the vayne w interaction with rageblade.

y0r1ck5 votes

I'm going to try to summarize what you're saying so we can be sure we understand each other.

Riven is bad vs tanks. Vayne is good vs tanks. Vayne is good, so people don't play tanks. People don't play tanks, so Riven is good. Tanks suck. "I just think they balanced Vayne's performance against other ADCs in a way that she was not designed for."

Did I get that right? Now I did.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Uh, yeah something like that, except I don't think Riot sucks at balance. I just think they balanced Vayne's performance against other ADCs in a way that she was not designed for.

y0r1ck1 votes

{quoted}

Uh, yeah something like that, except I don't think Riot sucks at balance. I just think they balanced Vayne's performance against other ADCs in a way that she was not designed for.

Alright, thanks for making that clear. I agree that we don't see tanks very often in solo queue. I am not sure if it's because tanks suck, vayne is good, some combination, or if it's just that people don't like supportive classes in general.

I appreciate your post, I think it offers a new perspective on a tired topic.

I gotta think about it more, interesting.

AHarmlessTaco2 votes

I think that there are a lot of factors, one being that tanks keep receiving durability nerfs due to pro play and receive compensatory damage buffs. The problem with that though is tanky champions dont feel tanky, nor do they deal as much damage as carries, so why would people want to pick them at all? Then to top it off, Vayne and Kayle are very strong right now and shred through everyone like butter. It all just sort of adds up to feeling like something is askew.

Always angry tbh1 votes

{quoted}

Uh, yeah something like that, except I don't think Riot sucks at balance. I just think they balanced Vayne's performance against other ADCs in a way that she was not designed for.

Kayle nerfed twice in a row. 2 patches. 4 weeks. She is still the strongest toplaner and will need another nerf next patch. Two patches in a row where they didn't address Kayle's problems. In fact, I dare argue the cast time reduction on the first "nerf" were actually a buff to lethal Tempo Kayle (less popular rune, though.) I do think Riot sucks at balancing.

But yes, Vayne and Riven are very overtuned. Death's Dance giving 80 AD-- ANY item giving 80 AD is questionable on its own. Why does Rageblade still work with Silver bolts? It's just not gonna be healthy ever unless they completely gut her W to the point where it's bad unless she has rageblade.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Kayle is, unfortunately, just like a lot of new champions in that RIOT probably wants people to try her and play her and learn how to play against her before they did anything too drastic. She was and probably still is a bit over-tuned but I don't think that means that Riot sucks at balancing, I just think they take their time as opposed to making hasty decisions. And yes, sometimes their nerfs/buffs are targeted at the wrong places but they are human just like anyone else and they have to all come to an agreement on stuff.

Vayne I do think is over-tuned, definitely in part due to Rageblade, while Riven I think is just doing what Riven does in a tank-less meta. When teams actually have a frontline and CC, Riven becomes a lot more manageable. Itemization, like you mentioned, might be more of the problem than individual champions. 80 AD is definitely a lot for most items to give, I think taking away 5 AD from a lot of the items might help take damage down a little bit, but then again you could accomplish the same thing with raising armor values across the board.

Anyways, as to why Rageblade works with Silver Bolts, I don't think its really a terrible thing because Vayne has to sacrifice Crit Chance space for it, but I think it should only be a viable strategy when the other team is stacking health and armor. Being a general catch-all is not healthy at all.

Sir Saltarin1 votes

Now tell me in which Tank meta has Vayne been good.

In none.

She is too strong now, she does deserve a nerf, however I acknowledge that on Tank metas Vayne is chain cc'ed to death and the ADCs that actually shine are the ones that can take down tanks from a larger range than the all in 550 range Vayne

Daddy Ants2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XvhuHXEm,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-04-06T09:38:10.080+0000)

Now tell me in which Tank meta has Vayne been good.

In none.

She is too strong now, she does deserve a nerf, however I acknowledge that on Tank metas Vayne is chain cc'ed to death and the ADCs that actually shine are the ones that can take down tanks from a larger range than the all in 550 range Vayne

Caitlyn Jinx KogMaw Twitch Tristana are your tank meta ADC's.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

And interestingly enough, 4/5 of those champions have no %health-damaging abilities in their kits and deal almost 100% physical damage, as would be expected in their core designs as long range AD carries. Kog'Maw, another premier tank-buster, is one of the exceptions to the long range-AD carry role due to his weak early game; he is intended to pay a price for his late game scaling. I also believe that each of these champions are highly picked in tank metas because they need peel to function well and to utilize their range. Vayne is theoretically supposed to be able to function in a tank meta without as much peel due to her nature as a duelist, but she is supposed to pay a similar price to Kog'Maw in having a weak early game.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

And interestingly enough, 4/5 of those champions have no %health-damaging abilities in their kits and deal almost 100% physical damage, as would be expected in their core designs as long range AD carries. Kog'Maw, another premier tank-buster, is one of the exceptions to the long range-AD carry role due to his weak early game; he is intended to pay a price for his late game scaling. I also believe that each of these champions are highly picked in tank metas because they need peel to function well and to utilize their range. Vayne is theoretically supposed to be able to function in a tank meta without as much peel due to her nature as a duelist, but she is supposed to pay a similar price to Kog'Maw in having a weak early game.

Runes are a big reason in why Hypercarry early games aren't as weak anymore.

Fleet Footwork, Biscuits, Magical Footwear, Taste of Blood, Ravenous Hunter in particular

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Hm, neat. That's a good observation.

Sir Saltarin1 votes

How can you disrespect my girl like that:

MissFortune item 3153 MissFortune item 3153 MissFortune item 3153 MissFortune item 3153 MissFortune item 3153 MissFortune item 3153 MissFortune item 3153 MissFortune item 3153

AHarmlessTaco2 votes

Sadly, I really cannot say what tank metas she has been strong in because my memory doesn't lend itself to remembering who was good when (I wish it did). However, I can say that from a design perspective and a little research, having a percent-health true damage on-hit effect IS intended to be a tool used specifically to counter tanks:

Meddler (NA) Design Director - 4 years ago It's a mechanic we only intend to only use very occasionally (hence the 4 year gap between Vayne's release with it and Fiora's rework gaining it). It's something we've explored on a few different prototypes post Vayne release, this is the first time though where we've concluded it was an appropriate fit. % max hp physical/magic damage or flat true damage are almost always the more appropriate tool for abilities that need to be limited against squishy targets/strengthened against tankier targets. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/irLpgEUx-health-true-damage

While I agree to some extent that Vayne has a tendency to get CC'd to death in games with tanks, I will also point out that all ADCs tend to get CC'd to death in games with tanks. That is their goal as a tank, to CC the highest priority target on the opposing team, whether it be a diver to peel their allied ADC, or the enemy ADC themselves. Vayne having a short range is supposed to be compensated by her mobility/stealth and her damage output, while long-ranged ADCs such as Caitlyn and Tristana are supposed to be inherently worse at dealing comparable damage to tanks. That is sort of where I am going with this whole discussion, is that fundamentally, Vayne should not be viable outside of a tank meta because she has access to the most powerful anti-tank tool in the game. From a design perspective, if RIOT is going to balance her against other ADCs in a non-tank meta, then they need to replace the %health true damage steroid that she has with a flat physical damage proc that scales with AD.

Sir Saltarin1 votes

While I agree to some extent that Vayne has a tendency to get CC'd to death in games with tanks, I will also point out that all ADCs tend to get CC'd to death in games with tanks

Vayne having a short range is supposed to be compensated by her mobility/stealth and her damage output, while long-ranged ADCs such as Caitlyn and Tristana are supposed to be inherently worse at dealing comparable damage to tanks

You are right in the sense that Vayne on raw dps it's the one that can take down tanks the faster in the game, but the actual gameplay of a champ it's not determinated by how much dps she can deal to a target dummy on practice mode, that's the thing that you miss and (sorry if it sounds a bit agressive) it's because you have never played Vayne at all, or the long range ADCs that you listed too.

You do a good balance thought between the long range of others and the stealth+true of Vayne against Tanks, that is a real dichotomy but imo you fail on the conclusion of it, because empirically what is shown is that the result is range>true dmg on Tank metas, it's not worth to pick Vayne over the ones that yeah will take some seconds more to kill the tanks but are safer.

That is sort of where I am going with this whole discussion, is that fundamentally, Vayne should not be viable outside of a tank meta because she has access to the most powerful anti-tank tool in the game

The problem is that her W alone it's probably the best anti tank skill out of all ADCs, but her whole kit isn't the best anti tank kit out of all ADCs, and it's not even close.

And that's maybe a design issue if you want to call it, and it's the main reason why the only times in which Vayne has been picked on Pro Play is when she's so overbearing on soloQ like now, because otherwise when she's on a more normal state on soloQ it's never worth to pick her no matter what meta it is.

Happens the same with Jinx btw, the only times when they are played on pro play it's not when the meta favors them, if that was the case both Vayne or Jinx would have been played on the Ardent Meta at least a bit, Vayne and Jinx are played a bit on pro play regardless of the meta when they are strong on their own.

This game cant be balanced 100% around pro play, but trust me that following pro play through the years helps a lot to understand how the game works. Thank you for your civil comment btw, that's a real debate.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

So, you are correct, I will admit that I am 100% a support main and always have been. It is from that perspective though that I have watched how ADCs play throughout many many many matches. I am always the person standing between the ADC and assassins/divers/tanks and I help to determine how well the ADC performs. I will say that from experience, Vayne requires MUCH less peel than ADCS like Jinx and Kog'Maw, so much so that I usually cant physically peel for those Vaynes who ult and run ahead with their enhanced movement speed. I know that game theory is much different than how games actually play out, and I know that ranged champions tend to perform much better in tank metas. My counter argument to your statement is that those ADCs actually need the peel provided by tanks in order to function and are balanced by their inherent lack of mobility. When a Kog'Maw has no peel, he loses much more quickly and deals much less damage than a Vayne of reasonable skill. Conversely, a Vayne with peel does not gain as much benefit, therefore is intended to be picked INTO a tanky team but not when her own allies are overly tanky. The thing is though, is that when tanks are meta, both teams have tanks so you see more ranged champions. It puts Vayne in a very weird spot and frankly relegates her to how highly skilled the player is, and that is something that is seemingly off right now.

I am certainly not going to disagree though that the pros are a good indicator of who is and who isnt strong. However, pro players also have the skill and game sense necessary to perform well on nearly all champions, whereas a large portion of the player base does not.

And that's maybe a design issue if you want to call it, and it's the main reason why the only times in which Vayne has been picked on Pro Play is when she's so overbearing on soloQ like now, because otherwise when she's on a more normal state on soloQ it's never worth to pick her no matter what meta it is.

I think this statement really hits what I am trying to convey. Vayne SHOULD only really be picked by people who like vayne and play her well because the way she actually functions in game makes her performance highly independent of her teammates, something that pro players avoid because they can get more out of a champion like Jinx so long as they have adequate peel, which again, pro players can coordinate to make sure Jinx is receiving adequate support. If Vayne is just willy nilly doing well against everyone in whatever meta, then I think her design as a tank buster should be retired and her exchange should be range for mobility ala lucian, not range for mobility and tank-bust.

Daddy Ants4 votes

When AzuBK came to r/VayneMains to discuss the buff with us, a few of us did actually tell him this was a bad idea.

Few of us said

"Why couldn't you just give +10 AD all ranks on R (20 / 30 / 40 -> 30 / 40 / 50)

or

"Why not just give us back the attack speed per level you took from us in S8 so we can build defensive boots in this meta?"

We were completely dismissed with a "Not looking at base stats" comment.

 

Riot's internal data has her at a 51.4 win rate in low elo and a 51.9 in high elo.

AHarmlessTaco3 votes

And thats really all I wanna know is just what the reasoning was behind it all. Having a 51% win rate isn't a huge concern in most cases, but when you have a high skill champion with a high play rate and a high win rate in a non-tank meta when the champion is known for busting tanks, I all of a sudden have some questions. And really that's it, not saying anyone's wrong or right, I just don't know the reasoning.

Flavi Kang2 votes

The best thing vayne mains have ever accomplished in their lives is convincing themselves and others that vayne is a high skill cap champion

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Except she is though.... The decision making process that goes into knowing how to position/play a short ranged carry and having to outmaneuver your opponent are both traits that make her more difficult to play than many ADCs. The difference between an experienced Vayne and an inexperienced Vayne is much more noticeable and has a much larger impact than many other champions.

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

Except she is though.... The decision making process that goes into knowing how to position/play a short ranged carry and having to outmaneuver your opponent are both traits that make her more difficult to play than many ADCs. The difference between an experienced Vayne and an inexperienced Vayne is much more noticeable and has a much larger impact than many other champions.

Until she has 6 items anyways. At that point it's just pentakill after pentakill. I'm not a Vayne Main and I've experienced what a late game on-hit Vayne can do. It's bonkers. She's basically 6 item Yi but from range. As for Vayne being meta right now, I feel like games have stalled out a bit recently. Everything feels much slower than I remember, so perhaps that's the reason she's becoming meta.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Yeah, she tends to do that, except its sorta more at like 3-4 items which is what bothers me. I agree though that games feel better paced and I think it has a lot to do with turret plating. I am pretty happy with the state of the game overall.

Daddy Ants2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flavi Kang,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XvhuHXEm,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-04-06T11:23:52.436+0000)

The best thing vayne mains have ever accomplished in their lives is convincing themselves and others that vayne is a high skill cap champion

She's hard on a macro/micro/decision making level.

Her kit is pretty simple to understand.

Flashes1 votes

{quoted}

When AzuBK came to r/VayneMains to discuss the buff with us, a few of us did actually tell him this was a bad idea.

Few of us said

or

We were completely dismissed with a "Not looking at base stats" comment.

 

Riot's internal data has her at a 51.4 win rate in low elo and a 51.9 in high elo.

That's literally what I said when it came out. I was complaining about how a Q buff of 50% at each level was insane and unwarranted. I was having enough fun without everyone banning Vayne every other game.

Now I've started to play worse than I would because everyone's afraid of a Vayne snowball, so the jungler camps top until I'm level 6 and the enemy Jax is level 9.

Craft Zeppelin4 votes

In my opinion, Vayne doesn't need "love" from the game devs. Raw skill alone from players are sufficient enough. I thought that WAS the whole point of picking Vayne.

If you are not a god at ADC, you are not supposed to even pick Vayne. Period.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I get what you're saying, and I agree for the most part. Vayne is a high skill floor/cap champion and has always been decent in good hands. I don't want her to be entirely excluded from the game based on skill level, but similar to Riven she should never be a highly contested high pick rate high win rate champion, so in that regard I agree that the ult buff did seem a little unnecessary. I dont know what her performance was like beforehand though.

Moody P2 votes

Vayne is not relevant in tank meta and never has been. She is not an anti tank pick.

AHarmlessTaco3 votes

That is sort of why I am asking why she has a %health true damage skill when that mechanic is intended solely as a tank-busting tool. If she realistically functions better as a duelist/skirmisher, then she should not have a tool to deal with tanks as well as she does.

Makarakarn2 votes

I don't personally see Riven often, but as for Vayne, her problem is extremely simple: her tank busting is made wrong. In a void, %max hp true damage pure to kill tanks sounds okay on paper. Equalizing the amount of time to kill a tank or squishy alike as long as you play right sounds fine, but it's implemented totally wrong. The problem with it is that the true damage is not only way too easy to proc (EVERY three autos + guinsoos + attack speed items + anything else) and the true damage % is static. If they wanted to make it actually tank busting and not everything-busting, the true damage % shouldve scaled with max hp difference like cut down. If it started way low against squishies to the point where it was just a meh amount of extra damage but actually chunked tanks it would be okay. On that note though, the question of whether or not it should be a passive or and actual ability is beyond me as someone who neither plays or plays against vayne to understand how it would impact it under my proposed changes. (Quick edit, another reason the true damage thing doesn't work is because it doesn't account for the fact that she already has base ad damage on top of the true damage, making it pop squishies too)

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

The problem of Vayne's W being without a time window and being undodgeable is certainly something that is a bit of an issue. While Cut Down didn't exist at the time, I can see where that approach might be useful. It may, however, be a bit too punishing to tanks if its to be any good. As a lot of people have mentioned, Guinsoo's does seem to a large part of why the ability is standing out. Before Rageblade I don't think Vayne's W was every really a problem.

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@MaliciousMetal and other Morde players; What is Morde's ideal identity?
Gameplay86 comments
31
votes
Teemo Rework to enhance his fantasy / decrease toxicity.
Concepts & Creations54 comments
18
votes
Demolish & Ohmwrecker
Gameplay13 comments
12
votes
Why Does Ahri Have True Damage?
Gameplay67 comments
10
votes
Support Vision and Item Overhaul
Gameplay49 comments
9
votes