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@MaliciousMetal and other Morde players; What is Morde's ideal identity?

AHarmlessTaco··31 votes·3,044 views

EDIT X3 : SECOND ITERATION http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/bAWZc8fx-mordekaiser-rework-2-maliciousmetal-and-other-morde-fans

EDIT X2 : FIRST ITERATION OF REWORK http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/i3jfngyA-follow-up-to-maliciousmetal-and-other-morde-players-what-is-mordes-ideal-identity

EDIT: Thanks everyone for the solid replies. This has been really fun to read thus far and I really appreciate it. I doubt I'll be able to propose any kind of rework that satisfies the Dark Lord but I've really enjoyed reading what you have to say.

Hello all,

First off, this a is a hobbyist post; I enjoy playing with champion designs and often feel inspired to pursue a particular champion. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:AHarmlessTaco/AHarmlessTaco:_Teemo_Rework http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:AHarmlessTaco/AHarmlessTaco:_Akali_Rework

Over the past few seasons I have seen countless Mordekaiser posts and I was there for his bot-lane rework, but alas I don't play him to know him as intimately as I should. (I am a humble and loyal support main). I would love some concise and focused feedback on what direction Mordekaiser players would like to see him go in. I have some observations that I think contribute to his identity / problems, but feel free to correct me. Ultimately I would like to post something similar to the above reworks.

1.What is Mordekaiser's intended niche? Who is supposed to counter him, who is he supposed to counter?

Immobile, low CC, and drain-tank are all things that seem core to Mordekaiser's identity, all of which seem to contribute to unhealthy game-state. Mobility creep keeps Mordekaiser from getting to his targets, low-CC makes him ultra-dependent on Rylai's, and when behind, Mordekaiser seems to offer very little to his team. Lastly, drain-tanks have historically been very unhealthy (see Aatrox, Akali, Swain, Vladimir, Graves to some extent) and difficult to balance. Unlike all of these examples, however, Mordekaiser is supposedly kept in check by his lack of mobility and CC, making his gameplay substantially less toxic than the aforementioned champions. What is it that you really want to see Mordekaiser excel at? Again, who do you want to see opposing you that makes you think "shit I'm screwed"?

2.What would a HEALTHY Mordekaiser's ideal itemization look like?

In line with his intended niche, Mordekaiser's itemization seems to be a bit obscure. He can build any stat and benefit from it it seems like, yet he has an unhealthy reliance on particular items just to cover up his intended weaknesses. Namely, Rylai's covers his lack of CC and Deadman's Plate and Protobelt cover his lack of mobility. The effectiveness of these items seem to restrict Riot's ability to strengthen Mordekaiser's intended niche; once he has these items, he would fill the niche plus resolve his weaknesses, making him a jack of all trades. Do Mordekaiser mains want to see him have mobility and CC and damage once he builds items, or should steps be taken to strengthen his "Immobile, low CC, and drain-tank" identity?

3.Where do Mordekaiser mains want to play the champion?

The latest Mordekaiser rework attempted to place Mordekaiser in a duo lane. What did you guys think of the concept? Would Mordekaiser mains like to have that dependence on a teammate to help you deal your damage, or do you all want to be solo laners? Do you want to feel vulnerable in exchange for more damage, or do you want more tools to simply help yourself? What trade-offs do you guys want to make when picking your roles?

4.What are your favorite things about Mordekaiser?

Is controlling an enemy with your ult core to your playstyle? Dragon? Rift Herald? Blue buff? How far does your desire to control a soul go? Or is it something else entirely? Is it that metallic feeling you get when you are surrounded by shrapnel that gets you off? Or is it that destructive third hit on your Q that makes you feel like a god? These are the things that I see that I think are cool, but you guys play him and know what's up.

5.What kind of counterplay do you want to see Mordekaiser have?

Perhaps the most important balance-related question, what kind of counterplay do you want Morde's opponents to have? Right now Mordekaiser seems like an all or nothing champ. You blow an ult on someone (no counterplay IDT), then hope to god you can get close to them to gib 'em. That is where I think Mordekaiser falls short. His counterplay seems so wrapped up in his identity that he becomes binary. You buy Rylai's and Protobelt just so that you can exploit your high damage, and if you can't do that, you do nothing. I'm not saying this from experience, I'm just saying that this is what his kit suggests. What would you guys like to see change in his kit that makes him a little more flashy? Not Ekko or Zed flashy, just something more substantial than Garen-flash-ult-thirdQhit.

Hopefully these seemed like legit questions to you guys. I know it's a little out of place to pretend to understand champions you don't play, but I like reading what people think of champions and I like to come at it from a logical standpoint rather than perhaps a biased experiential one. Feel free to add more context other than my 5 questions, just please try to add it at the end so that I can organize my thoughts better. Thanks.

86 Comments

Malicious Metal31 votes

Disclaimer; I'm somewhat Ill so this won't be the BEST representation of my thoughts. Yes, sickness sustains me but these nasty autumn colds are something else

1.What is Mordekaiser's intended niche? Who is supposed to counter him, who is he supposed to counter? Mordekaiser is a Juggernaut; A hulking melee threat who'll completely annihilates anything once he gets his metal hands on them. He's supposed to be in line with the Juggernaut concept of being a high damage bruiser that lacks strong CC and mobility but makes up for it with the combination of durability and damage. He's supposed to counter divers, assassins and other kinds of champions who have to rely on burst to kill their targets and dive into the enemy team. He's not supposed to be your team's source of engage but rather augments that strength by offering heavy damage and another burly body to hurl into battle alongside your team's initiator.

What should counter him are long ranged and kite-heavy teams that can keep him at bay and stop him from doing his job as a damage dealer.

Identity wise Mordekaiser's a Death Knight. He employs a mix of both hard hitting melee attacks and sorcerous magic to make for a lethal combo. He's THE magic damage Juggernaut who's basically a hybrid between a battle mage and a normal Juggernaut. He'll bring strong AoE damage and magic damage to the team while also bolstering up your front line. Say he'd be picked to provide a source of magic damage and a strong bruisers to make your team fighting a lot stronger

2.What would a HEALTHY Mordekaiser's ideal itemization look like? Mordekaiser should IMO be Hybrid. On a thematic standpoint he's a towering Tyrant who specializes in both devastating melee strikes and vile curses of black magic. As a Juggernaut he works well with Total AD as well.

An ideal build should be two damage items and the rest tanky with item 3116 /item 3146

In the end Juggernauts don't scale THAT well with items but are by design durable and deal damage due to their high base stats (except Morde's abysmal HP pool)

Items should not completely negate some of their issues but make them bearable like for example Black Cleaver/DMP on darius

3.Where do Mordekaiser mains want to play the champion? Solo lane's the way to go. Mordekaiser's a Juggernaut who should rely on himself. He's not a squishy damage dealer but a tanky frontline brawler like Darius, Olaf and co.

4.What are your favorite things about Mordekaiser? The soul enslaving aspect certainly is something very dear to me but so's the metallic feel of playing a REVENANT encased in IRON armor. I feel his identity as someone who literally shreds both your soul and frail mortal coil simultaneously is what's so cool about Mordekaiser. He's all about subjugating you through his indomitable will, crushing your body and ripping your soul out of your limp shell.

It's this duality of a curse-slinging warmonger that's so awesome.

5.What kind of counterplay do you want to see Mordekaiser have?

Perhaps the most important balance-related question, what kind of counterplay do you want Morde's opponents to have? Right now Mordekaiser seems like an all or nothing champ. You blow an ult on someone (no counterplay IDT), then hope to god you can get close to them to gib 'em. That is where I think Mordekaiser falls short. His counterplay seems to wrapped up in his identity that he becomes binary. You buy Rylai's and Protobelt just so that you can exploit your high damage, and if you can't do that, you do nothing. I'm not saying this from experience, I'm just saying that this is what his kit suggests. What would you guys like to see change in his kit that makes him a little more flashy? Not Ekko or Zed flashy, just something more substantial than Garen-flash-ult-thirdQhit.

So literally what every Juggernaut's counterplea's all about? Kiting, keeping him off, not letting him close the gap. Juggernauts are extremely lethal up close but fall short due to their limited CC and mobility tools as well as generally having Delayed/ramping up damage. I feel if Morde's going to be reworked he'll need to have a bit less burst.

Darius has his bleed setup until he goes wild, so does Garen.

Still, most Juggernauts are straight forward, they're not flashy. They're efficient and reliable at what they do, they're not offering a ton of flashy outplay potential but are generally speaking rather simple. Morde suffers from two main problems: ->His shield is too oppressive and has no real down time, making it too snowbally ->His ultimate can be extremely devastating but it's also feast or famine; kill something and get a clone or don't. Then again Dariu's is also all about killing someone to get his dunk going

On a sidenote; not a lot of Morde's actually build protobelt 24/7 Rylais is what he's getting but then again it's similar to Black cleaver speed ups in a way that it helps him stick

Sahn Uzal20 votes

It wouldn't be a Mordekaiser comment by Malicious Metal if it weren't longer than the bible.

AHarmlessTaco4 votes

TBF, this is exactly what I wanted. XD

Sahn Uzal3 votes

I'm aware, I just pointed it out :p

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

First of all, thank you for your reply and I am sorry to hear that you aren't feeling so great right now. By all means take your time with replies.

It will probably take me a while to digest this information and to really come up with anything substantial, but here are some of my early ideas thus far just in case you're curious. If you want to comment in terms of direction please do. These are really rough ideas so far.

Magical Armor Guy

Thornmail core item (Lore armor identity; Hextech gunblade and passive shield synergy)

Mordekaiser does not gain MR per level. Instead, a % of his armor is converted into MR. Low %, vulnerability to magic dealers.

% health costs rather than flat, very unsure on this one

Passive

Not sure if tankyness based on damage dealt is healthy, especially with the doubling down on Hextech Gunblade, makes for feast or famine Potential swapping this with E's mechanic with some Shen influence Perhaps just make the shield premitigation, should reduce some of the FoF

Q

Third hit AOE? Implosion like Diana/Orianna? Explosive shrapnel aoe?

W

RIP exp share damage partially based on armor Mordekaiser and his bound ally/minion takes reduced damage from projectiles, up to X%, based on their range. Calculated on impact. Includes towers, but reduced reduction. Healing seems odd, should probably be on the E? More potential for metal damage on W, seems restricted

E

Interaction with W ally perhaps Seems like it should be the sustain ability, while W should be a better AOE dealer

Ult

Ultimate deals damage initially then once every 5 seconds or so to break up the Rylai's perma slow Current HP, then Max HP, then Missing HP? E interaction perhaps? Each cast also slows the ulted target? (Siphon from the cursed target?)

Ideal build :

Deadmans, Thornmail, Rylais, HexTech Gunblade, Boots, ? MR item maybe not needed, intended weakness plus % bonus from armor

Malicious Metal1 votes

I feel durability based on damage dealt is inherently toxic and not really balancable. Might need to scrap that part.

Another minor nitpick; The rework you're proposing is too low scope to really tackle Morde's inherent weaknesses. It'll be just a shift of power rather than introducing new ways for Mord to succeed and ridding him of his issues of game health

AHarmlessTaco2 votes

Yepp, just at small scope level right now. Baby steps.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Link to first rework in title. Thoughts if you have time.

Keìron1 votes

targeting an ally with W must be removed IMHO. It's incorrect tematically and gameplay whise. He could get a buff somewhere else.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Why do you think that? Tell meh a story. :D

Keìron1 votes

i'll try to explain, english isn't my native language. post-rework Mordekaiser's W was designed for a botlane scenario. Now that he's played in solo lanes the spell lost his meaning. Mordekaiser, like every juggernaut, is really selfish. He spends much time splitpushing and oblieterating everyone who try to stop him from doing so. Obviously he must also follow his team in teamfights, but also in this case, his primary objective will be to reach the enemy backline, not peeling his allies with W.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I picture Mordekaiser and needing a teammate with strong engage / initiation for him to succeed in getting to the back line. W seems to drive this home by allowing him to speed up to his engage-buddy and join them in the fight. I do agree that it seems out of place in a solo lane, but it is also a somewhat boring ability when used only on himself. (See Amumu Despair)

Papa Andrei1 votes

SO i got a small idea, With his passive making it so building more armor into mr, mix that in with W damage, and then have it if you have W active, then you E, it would send the shards out, doing bonus damage, (Trade DPS for burst) and also slow the target for X amount based upon Duration of W left and amount of armor.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Posted this elsewhere in the thread, but it was along what you're saying.

Passive: Additionally, Mordekaiser does not gain magic resistance per level. Instead, a percentage of his bonus armor is converted into magic resistance.

W: Self buff only with AOE and resistance buff, can activate again to pelt everything in a line dealing damage and shredding resistance but gives up the AOE and resist? Scales with %AP + %Armor

My issues with what you are suggesting are that Morde would be gaining reliable CC (which I'm currently avoiding on basic skills) and that unlike someone like Brand who has the range to combo in certain ways, Mordekaiser would feel terrible having to budget his skill slots at such a short range. That is to say that forcing Mordekaiser to hold his E just because he doesn't want to lose his W would feel bad. If I were to do it, it would be a second cast on the same ability so that he has direct control over when his W ends without forfeiting his E slot.

crippler381 votes

I think people are getting your ID mixed up, you're not mordekaiser you're karthus, you talk about the metal god constantly, you're going on about metal and death, and now you're basically writing the scripture of morde (as said by tyrant for the bible length post)

ADMIT IT YOU'RE KARTHUS!

it's ok, you're among friends.

Malicious Metal3 votes

Oh snap I've been found out! Quick! R!

item 3157 item 3102 item 3026 (BS Night's edge)

FUCK!!

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Hello again, If you have the time, I have a cleaner rework idea up. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/bAWZc8fx-mordekaiser-rework-2-maliciousmetal-and-other-morde-fans

Mistress Madoka6 votes

Morde's Ideal Identity is "My Lord"

Also acceptable are "The Dark Lord", "The Immortal King", "The Iron Revenant", "The Master of Metal" and "Sauron"

Veltox4 votes

Idea for a new Q After he hits a target with it a huge chunk of metal is left on that location. Mordekaiser can use his mace to launch it like a golf ball and slow enemies hit by 50%(skillshot with medium range and damage).

TheIronRevenant11 votes

http://imgur.com/a/HKTkJ

New skin confirmed

Mordepool2 votes

  1. I want Morde to counter Heavy Mobility champions. He gets countered by ranged champions I don't think that will change

  2. Mordes itemization is crap because all his items he synergizes with are super expensive. Triforce Steraks Rylais liandries his midgame power spike is directlly linked to him getting Rylais. But the real issue is Morde itemizes like a late game champion ( which is what Morde Mains want him to be) but because of the Forced Hybridization of his Kit he is a Midgame champ.

Worst overall base stats of any champion, crap early game dominates mid game falls off late??? Bring back LATE Game Morde. All AP

  1. the mains want to play him where he is being played,top mid Jungle.
AHarmlessTaco2 votes

  1. What do you think of making his ult block dashes while it is on a target? Punish high mobility while leaving kiters / long range champions intact?

  2. What items would you prefer to build? Or do you just wish the items were cheaper? Do you think that making his passive based on premitigation damage would help him late game where people have mixed resistance?

  3. Having one particular designation is probably the healthier way to go, otherwise you get Graves/Quinn/Lulu in every lane.

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

  1. What do you think of making his ult block dashes while it is on a target?
    Not a bad idea but with the long range on R I think that would lead to abuse. My thoughts are to combo abilities E& W apply a curse and if Morde hits them with a Basic or Q ( I'm not a balance guy) it triggers the curse causing the grounded CC

  2. What items would you prefer to build? Or do you just wish the items were cheaper? Do you think that making his passive based on premitigation damage would help him late game where people have mixed resistance? There just doesn't seem to be any mid tier options to keep morde in the game when behind.

  3. Having one particular designation is probably the healthier way to go, otherwise you get Graves/Quinn/Lulu in every lane. TOP.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I'm kinda down for more a more cursey-feeling Morde and more comboing.

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

I'm kinda down for more a more cursey-feeling Morde and more comboing.

Here's what I didn't get with the Rework. Lore wise Morde can control the black Mist. There was no incorporation of that into his Kit. Seems to me they could do a lot of cool stuff with Fog of War Manipulation

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I'm looking into perhaps a nearsight mechanic on his ult. If you have any ideas on how FOW control might work throw stuff at me.

AcidTheWarlock2 votes

I personally like his combination of Juggernaut and Battle Mage. His AAs hurt, his abilities hurt, and he gets tanky as hell. He's got really strong sustain as well and is hard to kill in long fight. Keep in mind, I'm not a Morde main, I've just played him a little and done a lot of theorycrafting based off of his kit, lore, and MM's threads.

His current themes are really having high defense and sustain while being able to kill pretty much anyone. He's a threat all game, with no real falloff since he's a hybrid champ. Morde's slow and has weak CC, but if he has proper support he's able to get up in your face. There's really nothing you can do about it either, since he's so tough. I'd say he wouldn't have to greatest waveclear but he'd be able to trade very well when paired with the right support, and that threat would allow him to push enemies off of farm. In mid he'd just shrug off poke and farm normally. Top he'd want to heavily punish the other laner and make them build MR right away so he can't kill them or ult them at level 6 then take their tower. Of course, in mid and top he wouldn't roam well and in bot he wouldn't be able to laneswap either.

I feel like playing to the bot-lane APC thing could be really good. His passive could still be a shield, but it's very resistant to ranged damage and reflects damage it takes originating from too far away, meaning it would be better to be melee but then you fall into his attack range. He's difficult to duel since you don't want to really fight him directly, just hit and run. He could also be taken top against say Vayne or Quinn. Not really jungle, since he'd want to farm to hit powerspikes for mid/late-game, and not support since your base damages would be kind of weak.

Mace of Spades is super iconic and it's one of my favorite parts. Just blowing people up insanely quick with that 3rd hit and a triforce proc is beautiful. However, it's impossibly unhealthy. Either Mace of Spades is useless of it's a oneshot.

Harvesters of Sorrow is just so damn boring. I get it, it's strong, but it's not flashy. It doesn't feel like it has the sort of "punch" to it. It doesn't really have a niche in his kit besides trying to shove him into botlane. I would remove this ability completely. I hate it.

Siphon of Destruction. So simple but so good. It's actually the healthiest spell in his kit, but it suffers from the same problem as W. It's not cool enough for such an awesome character like Mordekaiser. It also gives him ranged poke, and while I really like the idea of Morde being a lane bully, it's just not "right" in my view of him.

Aaaaand finally Children of the Grave. It's fun, it CAN be impactful, but if you whiff it it's useless. The damage from the curse is really damn low at first and the DoT feels weak. I like the FX and I love the ghost dragon (I would keep it) but I really want to rework this one entirely. The ghost is great, but the ability needs to be less targeted. Drop the HP/AP gain and the ghost, and change it around a bunch. It's so polarizing but it doesn't have to be.

TL;DR?

TL;DR: Morde should be very strong at all points of the game and be very tough to kill while having high damage. Bot lane APC is pretty sweet and so is top/mid. Make him resistant to ranged damage and rework W,E, and R. And give him LC$B1GPl@YS cause they cool.

Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

I personally like his combination of Juggernaut and Battle Mage. His AAs hurt, his abilities hurt, and he gets tanky as hell. He's got really strong sustain as well and is hard to kill in long fight. Keep in mind, I'm not a Morde main, I've just played him a little and done a lot of theorycrafting based off of his kit, lore, and MM's threads.

His current themes are really having high defense and sustain while being able to kill pretty much anyone. He's a threat all game, with no real falloff since he's a hybrid champ. Morde's slow and has weak CC, but if he has proper support he's able to get up in your face. There's really nothing you can do about it either, since he's so tough. I'd say he wouldn't have to greatest waveclear but he'd be able to trade very well when paired with the right support, and that threat would allow him to push enemies off of farm. In mid he'd just shrug off poke and farm normally. Top he'd want to heavily punish the other laner and make them build MR right away so he can't kill them or ult them at level 6 then take their tower. Of course, in mid and top he wouldn't roam well and in bot he wouldn't be able to laneswap either.

I feel like playing to the bot-lane APC thing could be really good. His passive could still be a shield, but it's very resistant to ranged damage and reflects damage it takes originating from too far away, meaning it would be better to be melee but then you fall into his attack range. He's difficult to duel since you don't want to really fight him directly, just hit and run. He could also be taken top against say Vayne or Quinn. Not really jungle, since he'd want to farm to hit powerspikes for mid/late-game, and not support since your base damages would be kind of weak.

Mace of Spades is super iconic and it's one of my favorite parts. Just blowing people up insanely quick with that 3rd hit and a triforce proc is beautiful. However, it's impossibly unhealthy. Either Mace of Spades is useless of it's a oneshot.

Harvesters of Sorrow is just so damn boring. I get it, it's strong, but it's not flashy. It doesn't feel like it has the sort of "punch" to it. It doesn't really have a niche in his kit besides trying to shove him into botlane. I would remove this ability completely. I hate it.

Siphon of Destruction. So simple but so good. It's actually the healthiest spell in his kit, but it suffers from the same problem as W. It's not cool enough for such an awesome character like Mordekaiser. It also gives him ranged poke, and while I really like the idea of Morde being a lane bully, it's just not "right" in my view of him.

Aaaaand finally Children of the Grave. It's fun, it CAN be impactful, but if you whiff it it's useless. The damage from the curse is really damn low at first and the DoT feels weak. I like the FX and I love the ghost dragon (I would keep it) but I really want to rework this one entirely. The ghost is great, but the ability needs to be less targeted. Drop the HP/AP gain and the ghost, and change it around a bunch. It's so polarizing but it doesn't have to be.

TL;DR?

TL;DR: Morde should be very strong at all points of the game and be very tough to kill while having high damage. Bot lane APC is pretty sweet and so is top/mid. Make him resistant to ranged damage and rework W,E, and R. And give him LC$B1GPl@YS cause they cool.

Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser Mordekaiser

There was a time when he was strong at all points of the game and due to his binary nature, he was unbeatable. He would just force you to stand under your tower and never back. He was invulnerable to ganks because he could easily 1v2. They need to make sure he has no access to CC if he gets any sort of buff, otherwise he will be back to being cancer.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Link to first rework in title. Thoughts if you have time.

Big Lincoln1 votes

im not a dedicated mord player and i can hardly say i ever was, but i like the champ so i'm gonna post anyway

1.What is Mordekaiser's intended niche? Who is supposed to counter him, who is he supposed to counter?

tons of damage and big, bulky defenses.

i would like him to be a less traditional juggernaut and prioritize damage over defenses in his items. relative to other Juggernauts, he should be a little bit burstier; he has the hardest time catching someone out, but hits the hardest out of the whole group. I think his shield mechanic is going to need to change though. as it stands it's hardly healthy for the game, but it's also very iconic and hard to replace. the closest substitute would be to replace it with % damage reduction the higher it's charged

it'd be nice if when he got reworked he actually represented the 'ramping damage' juggernaut that was intended for him. linking this to his passive would be a good start also; a damage increase linked with how charged his passive is, similar to Zarya from OW, would fit the idea very well.

What would a HEALTHY Mordekaiser's ideal itemization look like?

i like the idea that he's very flexible in his build. imo being able to accentuate his strengths or cover weaknesses is one of the healthier things about his builds, but steps should be taken so that he isn't forced to buy Rylai's every game. situational hard CC would be the only thing I could suggest, but then he might still purchase it for even more utility.

3.Where do Mordekaiser mains want to play the champion?

solo lanes. bot lane was never fun.

4.What are your favorite things about Mordekaiser?

pre-rework he was basically a juggernaut without needing to build almost straight tank. he had a nice combination of heavy damage and durability that made him very enjoyable to play.

5.What kind of counterplay do you want to see Mordekaiser have?

i think his passive should require more commitment on Mordekaiser's part but be harder to take down. it's not fun for the opponent that he might land a good E and immediately have most of his shield up, but it's no fun for mord to watch his shield drain so quickly when his rotation is on CD. his E and his ult need changes as well; I don't know how to make E better for everyone, but his ult feels shitty as a mostly DoT move for Mordekaiser that can also be QSS'd, and it's frustrating for the enemy just watching themselves die for 10 seconds. if it were still going to be a mechanic for summoning ghosts, I'd probably just make it an execute.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Link to first rework in title. Thoughts if you have time.

Decrit1 votes

So, i used to play a hell lot of Morde before totally transitioning to jungle/supp ( and no, morde jungle is not my thing), but i would like to give my 2 cents on that regard since i always gave a lot of thought on him over many years, and i still do this day.

  1. Morde intended niche

Morde is, at its core, about two things: dealing damage and "soft snowballing".

  • By dealing damage i mean that damage is the main thing he brings to the party and with it part of what is necessary to function ( in this case, survivability ). Any other thing like "draintanking" is just tied to this main thing, and can be ditche din the future if anything better is found.

  • By "soft-snowballing" i mean that rather snowball via hyperscaling into lategame he just takes opportunity in success. This is mostly made true by his ultimate, since the Morde' s team can commit and risk for a kill and get very good results thank to Morde' s Ghost while other teams would get punished instead. This also applies somehow to dragon.

  1. Intended itemization

Honestly i don' t think this is a question that should be answered without replying to more pressing and core matters, like how should scale into late or what role should he be able to occupy plus a couple more questions not exposed here. For sure, i can say it should not be a full damage build because it would be too much feast or famine, especially considering his passive nor it should be full tank, even if i find this already more fitting than full damage because he can still use dragon and ghost to scale into late.

  1. Place where Morde should be played.

Sadly, only in solo lane or perhaps support. I say sadly because Morde has many good reasons to play as the "supported" role due to the lackings in his kit and how he performs better with a champion providing CC and mobility, but it is a thing condemned because that' s not how morde used to be played, and players will keep rejecting that. Many champions due to updates change their position ( anyone remembers Nidalee lane?) but this is a too much radical thing for Morde. I find jungle morde weird, so i personally don' t think it' s a great place for him while i recognize he can bring one or two intresting patterns. I find Support Morde a bit of a stretch, but since we have already seen every kind possible of supports probably there he would have a better welcome.

  1. Favourite thing about morde

Zone and timing control, by using his own allies as a mean to get to the enemy and smash it and take their soul or take the dragon. I also liked a lot the idea of faking a trade loss by playing around his shield and his ultimate, since it heals quite a lot.

  1. Counterplay to morde

Soft lasting crowd control and quick skirmishes. I think he should be able to withstand poke and respectfully reply to it, other than not being too much easy to peel away once gets on someone, but he should be kiteable, he should be not that good against burst or quick damage since he is not able to unload all of hsi blows ( and here old Morde mains will give death stares to me since it was his thing to punish assassins with his old Q) and should suffer cc persistance typical of a control mage ( for example see anivia' s R). While annoying, that' s the thing that to me feels more fit to Morde.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Link to first rework in title. Thoughts if you have time.

Star PlatinumELO1 votes

Mordekaiser As a Mordekaiser enthusiast/main since mid 2014 I guess i'll chime in.Mordekaiser

  1. What is Mordekaiser's intended niche? Who is supposed to counter him, who is he supposed to counter?

I see Mordekaiser as the slow moving Battle-Mage hybrid of the Juggernaut list with painful magic and strong mace-based auto-attacks with the ability to sustain off an opponent who gets too close.

I feel ranged and kite focused champions should be Mordekaisers main counter as they do everything he does not (moving fast)

I feel Mordekaiser should counter slow moving mages that cannot pierce through his iron defenses along with people who wander too close to him

2.What would a HEALTHY Mordekaiser's ideal itemization look like?

I feel that Mordekaiser would need to be put down a straight line of builds, either make him an ad bruiser or an ap bruiser the hybrid capabilities of his kit weigh him down too much to be given actual decent base stats in a similar manner to Kayle.

These builds I am thinking up are from a point where they fixed Mordekaisers reliance on Rylai's Crystal Scepter, and removed the hybrid scalings from his kit.

  • If he were an ad bruiser without his hybrid scaling I could see a build like this: item 3078 item 3748 item 3053 item 3065 item 3742 item 3111

The ad items push his spell-weaving behind his mace smashing, using your Trinity Force at the right time to maximize damage is the key to success with an ad bruiser Mordekaiser.

  • If he were an ap bruiser without his hybrid scaling I could see a build like this: item 3100 item 3157 item 3001 item 3065 item 3742 item 3020

The ap items push his spell-weaving in front of his mace smashing, using your spells in a way to maximize your poke damage is the key to success with an ap bruiser Mordekaiser.

3.Where do Mordekaiser mains want to play the champion?

I have wanted and always will want to play Mordekaiser top lane, he is visually one of the most durable looking characters due to the armor and most foes top lane match that durable look him being anywhere else would just ruin the fantasy a bit for me, but besides that top lane is the most interactive lane for a champ like Mordekaiser, it is crowded with champions that have similar fighting patterns to him which leads to fun 1 on 1 fights and with all the room in top lane it can lead to the most fun gameplay in my opinion due to how many ways fights can start.

Using all your spells to fight another juggernaut and win feels rewarding, while poking out mages in the mid lane just feels cheap by comparison.

4.What are your favorite things about Mordekaiser?

My favorite thing about Mordekaiser is having a fight, winning said fight and using the enemy as a servant to push my team further ahead via taking objectives or just using the ghost to kill the rest of its team, it just feels satisfying.

5.What kind of counterplay do you want to see Mordekaiser have?

I want to see the slow moving death machine that WILL kill you if YOU go close to him (not the other way around, sorry Proto-belt and Rylai's) pushed further as his gameplay style, in a similar way to how Illaoi does it. Catching those who came too close is a rewarding design for me personally.

Currently Mordekaiser cannot do this kind of gameplay pattern due to how fine of a thread he currently hangs on with his balance. from his horrible base stats and the reliance to play on the aggressive to fund his current build path which is just way too expensive to get while playing the waiting game for an opportunity like the other Juggernauts do. (most of the items Mordekaiser wants are over 3000 gold each.)

When Mordekaiser eventually gets the Yorick Sion, and Poppy treatment I expect riot will take the one thing everybody ties to Mordekaiser (the ghosts of your enemies) and build around that in a similar way they built Yorick around his ghouls, or Poppy around her wall charges. I am excited and fearful for Mordekaisers future but I feel at this pointalmost anything would be better than what we have now, which is a big fat mess.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Thanks for the feedback. Do you think that Morde should be a mid-game oriented champion (hybrid) or a late game one (solo damage) ?

What do you think of :

Passive: Iron Man Mordekaiser takes up to 25% reduced damage from projectiles based on the distance between himself and his aggressor on impact (Max@1000 units). Additionally, Mordekaiser does not gain magic resistance per level. Instead, a percentage of his bonus armor is converted into magic resistance.

IMO this would free up that Spirit Visage from both of your forementioned itemizations and may fulfill your bulky armor fantasy?

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Link to first rework in title. Thoughts if you have time.

Backup4now1 votes

1.What is Mordekaiser's intended niche? Who is supposed to counter him, who is he supposed to counter?

The guy that, as long as he can consistently deal damage, will consistently have a massive shield. If he can hit your whole team at the same time, he's invincible and will slowly destroy you all, with his main gating being that he's melee, not very fast, and has no innate stickiness or guaranteed kill combos. That's his niche: "Hue hue, Always shield, Never die". He should counter poke (in lane, because that's the point of the shield), assassins, tanks (in teamfights), and completely annihilate out-of-position ranged characters. He should be countered by peel, kiting, constant slows and obnoxious summoner spells like flash and exhaust.

2.What would a HEALTHY Mordekaiser's ideal itemization look like?

WIth his current passive, AP/tank would be the healthiest because only abilities add to shield. If it were changed to include autos, either ad/ap or hybrid+tank would be healthier. We don't want Mordekaiser to just build full tank and never die, and we don't want to build full damage and just instakill everyone or instadie yourself. Imo, the healthiest-looking Morde build was the old times "WotA, Rylai, Abyssal, ForceOfNature, Randuin" etc. where there's a good amount of damage, but a good focus on tankiness to make the most optimal use of converted shield. At the time, he didn't instakill without getting a full rotation off on a squishy, and did his draintank job excellently: always shield, never die, eventually kill everyone.

3.Where do Mordekaiser mains want to play the champion?

An ideal design would allow any lane, even support with those upcoming wacky support items. But, we all know how absurd the perfect-world idea is, so we'll stick with everywhere BUT a duolane. Mordekaiser was originally deemed a 1v5 character, where he can get a lucky early ghost on a good target and 2v4 the enemy team to death. Having the ability to use an ally to your advantage (rework) is cool and all, but relying on it and having power in your kit dedicated to it is garbo.

4.What are your favorite things about Mordekaiser?

Pre-rework: Always shielding and never dying. Current: The Idea of gaining ramping damage and beating everyone close-up (which frankly, does not exist: your 'ramping damage' is just three hits, and then stops existing for a few seconds). I like when I'm ahead and am able to live the dream of 1-2-3'ing any contesting melee character. I also like being able to literally oneshot people with full-ap dft ult, but that's kind of bullshit and should go away.

5.What kind of counterplay do you want to see Mordekaiser have?

Not being allowed to get his damage off, whether that be invincibility on enemies, peel, kiting, whatever. He's immobile and ccless, so anything that would deny him the opportunity to deal damage should be his counterplay.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Link to first rework in title. Thoughts if you have time.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

To be honest, I think that Morde as he is has plenty of strength. People just don't wanna use the dragon.

AHarmlessTaco2 votes

I think it's moreso that the bot lane thing never caught on so he has limited access to what was already a gimicky thing. It takes a lot of budget to grant your team a dragon and the fact that it is dependent on you being ahead kind of makes it unreliable IMO.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

To be honest that sounds more like players arbitrarily wanting to conform to the "meta" as opposed to wanting to try something new. He still has a lot of strength without the dragon and dragon control has as much to do with team composition and coordination as it does with being ahead.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Wanting to try something new is one thing, but wanting to try something that is feast or famine and unreliable is another topic. Mordekaiser has clear weaknesses that are very well exploited by ADCs and supports specifically. ADCs outrange him and supports can peel him, so unless he has excellent coordination with his support and the jungler, Mordekaiser is prone to getting behind. This is a problem because his ult takes up so much of his budget and is itself a feast or famine mechanic. Mordekaiser is very prone to getting behind and he offers very little when behind, so unlike someone like Draven who favors the early game and snowballing, Mordekaiser just isn't worth the extra effort to make him work.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

I don't find "relies on teamwork" to be a downside or subject to Feast/Famine.

Morde can survive in lane and become very scary mid to late game, and that's not even considering having a Marksman/Carry Top, Mid, or Jung.

Vanjie1 votes

He doesn't' have one until Riot Games decides to work on him. The same goes with Karma.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Yeah, this post was about what people want him to be after Riot works on him.

Vanjie1 votes

Not in the bot lane and with a horrible dragon mechanic.

Mahavishnu731 votes

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not a Morde main and am not familiar with his lore, but I have spent enough time playing him (pre and post juggernaut) to have developed a notion of his identity.

He doesn't care about you, no matter who you are. He's barely aware of your presence unless you are close and powerful.

IMO this means that all of his abilities should be AOE ground targeted or self targeted. Maybe he could even have a modified basic attack to be some kind of AOE. If that's too weird, then maybe only melee range abilities (basic attack included) could be specifically targeted.

He doesn't feel... anything

Game translation, that means damage mitigation instead of shielding. It would have to be ability triggered (probably W), not fully passive, else it would be too non-interactive. Also, the strength of mitigation would have to have a graphical representation to prevent the "invisible power" problem. This would make his motivation for health stacking clearer, which is how Riot wants juggernauts to go anyway.

You are made small and weak in his presence

Game translation, he harms your stats if you get close enough. This rewards Morde for closing the gap and punishes opponents for getting too close. Any and all BONUS stats should be considered for this mechanic. Critically, enemy move speed should be set at or just below Morde's base movement speed. This would be Morde's only form of crowd control. This could be tied to his W, perhaps a toggle? Damage mitigation in one setting, stat drain in the other. Alternatively, this could be his new ult. TBH the range and specific targeting of the current ult never made sense, though it is a cool mechanic.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Link to first rework in title. Thoughts if you have time.

BastionKross1 votes

1.What is Mordekaiser's intended niche? Who is supposed to counter him, who is he supposed to counter?

The niche is hybrid juggernaut. His counters are the standard juggernaut counters of kiting, mobility, and not being able to engage like a tank can. He's supposed to counter pretty much everyone; if you get within bitchslapping distance of Morde it doesn't matter if you're a mage, assassin, tank, marksman, or anything else, you're in for a world of pain.

2.What would a HEALTHY Mordekaiser's ideal itemization look like?

Whatever you need that game, you can build it with no fear of stats being wasted. Need more physical damage? Build AD. Need more magic damage? Build AP. This is in addition to the usual juggernaut philosophy of "I can build defense and still do tons of damage". Think of a bruiser Jax build, where item 3156 and item 3001 can be built right alongside one another.

3.Where do Mordekaiser mains want to play the champion?

Not in a duo lane, that's for sure. Top, mid, maybe jungle.

4.What are your favorite things about Mordekaiser?

All the things you love about juggernauts (very tanky, lots of damage, good dueling potential) combined with mixed damage and a flexible build path. You'd never catch Garen or Darius with an AP item, but Morde can dip into them as he pleases.

5.What kind of counterplay do you want to see Mordekaiser have?

Standard juggernaut counterplay, kiting and peeling. Morde shouldn't have to lane with a helper, but once teamfighting starts he should want the help of an engage tank to start a teamfight and the CC of his team to help him get to his targets.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Link to first rework in title. Thoughts if you have time.

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