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Support Vision and Item Overhaul

AHarmlessTaco··9 votes·3,858 views

WARNING: This is a fairly large post. If you downvote, please leave a small comment describing what turned you off in this post. I value everyone's opinion and can only improve if you voice why you disagree with my approach. As long as you do me that small favor, feel 100% free to downvote. :)

EDIT: Thus far I have heard a lot of concern for bot lane mages and wanting to get rid of Sightstone completely. I am considering Trinket/Summoner/GP5 interactions as well as trying to figure out whether or not damage oriented supports are healthy for the game. I think Brand/Zyra are overtuned late game, but other than that I do support them.

With this post, I would like to open up a discussion about some of the problems facing the support role and introduce some potential concepts for the community to work with. This will end up being a fairly large overhaul and will have a lot of repercussions, but is aimed at creating a healthier atmosphere overall for supports and their teams.

The support role suffers from a number of things: • Reduced gold income compared to other roles • Roaming expectations lead to reduced experience income • Lack of palpable agency in combat • Low recognition for contributions • Itemization constrained by Sightstone and income • Lack of substantial pre-game decisions • High dependence on team to the point of feeling unequal to other roles

All of these things have improved over the years, but there is still a lot left to be solved before the support role feels like it is equal to the rest of the team. One key to this is to truly transform the support role from "Ward Bitch" to something more meaningful and less derogatory. The support should be the master of vision and shot calling, right alongside the jungler. While the support role is dependent on others for damage, each role should ideally look to the support for guidance on vision needs. With the increasingly team-oriented approach to warding that is Trinket usage, one could argue that supports now provide supplemental vision on top of existing coverage, something that has left the support role valuable, but somewhat empty feeling.

My suggestion is to fully transform the vision game into a team approach, but to let the support make important decisions and contributions that other roles cannot. With this change, I would like to retire Sightstone in favor of a more itemization-friendly substitute. With this change will come changes to all GP5 support items and each Eye item, all of which I will address individually. Whilst discussing these changes, I will refer back to the problems that supports are having, such as experience gains and overall itemization.

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Oculus Gem (400 gold) item 3187

UNIQUE PASSIVE – TECHMATURGY: Trinket cooldown reduced by 20%. UNIQUE ACTIVE – VISIONARY: Consumes a charge to create a visible Clairvoyant Zone at target location for up to 120 seconds, granting vision and preventing enemies from placing new Stealth Wards within the zone. While inside the zone, friendly Stealth Wards have their remaining time doubled. If the zone ends, any friendly Stealth Wards inside have their remaining time halved, rounded up. Stores one charge every 180-90 (based on level) seconds, up to 2 maximum charges.

Here we have Oculus Gem, the new, low-cost support item without the constraints of high cost or potentially unwanted stats. The way this item works is simple: you target a small, circular area, and for the next 120 seconds the enemy cannot place wards in that circle and all of your team's wards last longer while they are in the circle. The area inside the circle is revealed to your team, but the circle itself is revealed to all enemies, exactly like the circle provided by killing scuttle crab. This change will allow supports to maintain some vision and vision denial through these zones, but more importantly, it helps supports to guide their teammates into warding key locations and grants supports more access to Trinkets than other roles. Should the support decide to run with Red trinket, others will have to step in with Yellow trinkets to fill the zones left by the support. This gives the support some agency in deciding where wards need to be placed, but also gives the enemy team an idea of where you are warding, so choose carefully! Another big factor could be Sweeping Lens. My idea is that if you Sweep it for so long, the zone is destroyed.

Ocular Scepter (Oculus Gem + 300 gold) item 2049

UNIQUE PASSIVE – TECHMATURGY: Trinket cooldown reduced by 25%. UNIQUE ACTIVE – VISIONARY: Consumes a charge to create a visible Clairvoyant Zone at target location for up to 180 (based on level) seconds, preventing enemies from placing new Stealth Wards within the zone. While inside the zone, friendly Stealth Wards gain 25% increased sight range and have their remaining time doubled. If the zone ends, any friendly Stealth Wards inside lose their sight range bonus and have their remaining time halved, rounded up. Stores one charge every 180-90 (based on level) seconds, up to 3 maximum charges.

A modest upgrade to Oculus Gem, Ocular Scepter further emphasizes vision control over combat stats in an attempt to dissuade non-support roles from buying the item. The cost and benefits are fairly marginal, allowing the support to postpone this upgrade in favor of other items, but without allowing Ocular Gem to be too powerful on its own. Notably, the zone will last longer to account for natural duration increases on yellow trinkets, and the wards will now grant additional sight range. Trinket cooldown reduction is increased simply to keep up with natural cooldown reductions on Yellow trinket, meaning that when you buy this, it will reduce the trinket timer by about as much flat time as when you bought Ocular Gem.

Insignia of the Overseer (Ocular Scepter + Forbidden Idol + Crystalline Bracer + 50 gold) item 2045

+200 health +50% base health regeneration +50% base mana regeneration +10% cooldown reduction +8% bonus healing and shielding power +20 out of combat movement speed UNIQUE PASSIVE – TECHMATURGY: Trinket cooldown reduced by 30%. Item Active cooldowns (other than VISIONARY) reduced by 20%. UNIQUE ACTIVE – VISIONARY: Consumes a charge to create a visible Clairvoyant Zone at target location for up to 240 (based on level) seconds, preventing enemies from placing new Stealth Wards within the zone. While inside the zone, friendly Stealth Wards gain 30% increased sight range and have their remaining time doubled. If the zone ends, any friendly Stealth Wards inside lose their sight range bonus and have their remaining time halved, rounded up. Stores one charge every 180-90 (based on level) seconds, up to 4 maximum charges.

Here we find the replacement to Ruby Sightstone, a sort of Trinity Force of supports, so to speak. Rather than simply giving out a bunch of health, I decided that Insignia of the Overseer should pander to all supports in each of the key stat lines important to the support role. These stats are universally usable by all supports, as even Wardens can make use of the bonus healing and shielding power through FOTM and Locket. This important stat line is a mix of all those stats included in GP5 items, thus symbolizing an important itemization key to being a support. And yes, FQC will be seeing significant changes. Stay tuned.

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You may have noticed that Oculus Gem recharges over time rather than when going back to base. This is, I believe, an important factor in making the support more universally friendly to their team, not just the ADC. By forcing supports to go back to base for wards, the current game state has prevented them from being able to really interact with their team on a consistent basis. While the ADC's historically required immense hand-holding, many of them are quite independent nowadays and will often be able to hold their own in a 2v1 for a short time. This means that when an ADC backs, a support should have the freedom to roam mid, ward, clear river, etc... and should be able to come back to lane when the ADC arrives or should be able to go back to base for purchases. One large concern is that with a recharge system, supports will never need to go back to base because items do not matter to them. Wrong. If this is the case, serious steps should be taken to make support purchases FEEL impactful, thus giving them a strong need to weigh the pros and con of warding mid/roaming vs going back to base to buy. I for one would like to be able to gank with my jungler and not worry about my ADC feeding while I am gone. I simply think that supports lack the tools to make plays early on, such as out of combat MS. Boots of mobility help, but they take too long to buy currently. This could also help supports make extra experience by simply sticking around longer.

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Relic Shield item 3302

+75 health +2 Gold per 10 seconds UNIQUE PASSIVE– SPOILS OF WAR: Melee autoattacks execute minions below 200 - 285 (based on level) health. Killing a minion by any means heals you and the nearest allied champion for 15 health and grants them kill gold. These effects require an allied champion within 1050 units of the user and consume a charge. Recharges every 40 seconds. Max 2 charges.

No big changes to the Relic Shield line to speak of. Something I would like to discuss however, is how experience is divided with this item. With a heavier focus on roaming, I would like to bring up the topic of proccing this item in mid or top lane. In an ideal world, a support should NEVER feel bad for sharing gold with an ally. In reality, killing a minion soaks up invaluable experience that a mid laner needs to perform well. Therefore, to prevent mid laners from raging at supports that roam mid, I would like to suggest that supports as a whole give full experience to their allies somehow. On Relic Shield proc perhaps. Or through a mastery. Something to let support roam mid, proc Relic, and not steal that level 6 from their mid laner.

Targon’s Brace item 3097

+175 health +50% base health regeneration +2 Gold per 10 seconds UNIQUE PASSIVE– SPOILS OF WAR: Melee autoattacks execute minions below 210 - 380 (based on level) health. Killing a minion by any means heals you and the nearest allied champion for 40 health and grants them kill gold. These effects require an allied champion within 1050 units of the user and consume a charge. Recharges every 30 seconds. Max 3 charges.

Still no huge changes, but I would also like to consider the idea of minion executions working on a % health basis. I often find myself confused in games because I try to execute minions at half health 6 minutes in no problem, but in the mid game I can't execute until the minion is at 1/4 health. At that point, the window becomes VERY small because everyone on your team will 1-hit a 1/4 health minion. I wanted to go with something like a "below 40% health system", but then super minions would be too easy to kill.

Face of the Mountain item 3401

+450 health +100% base health regeneration +10% cooldown reduction +2 Gold per 10 seconds UNIQUE PASSIVE– SPOILS OF WAR: Melee basic attacks execute minions below 340 - 680 (based on level) health. Killing a minion heals by any means heals you and the nearest allied champion for 50 health and grants them kill gold. These effects require an allied champion within 1050 units of the user and consume a charge. Recharges every 30 seconds. Max 4 charges. UNIQUE ACTIVE: Grant a shield to yourself and an ally equal to 10% of your maximum health for 4 seconds. After 4 seconds, the shield explodes to slow nearby enemies by 40% for 2 seconds (60 second cooldown).

Again, no changes, but something I miss was when FOTM exploded and killed minions, thus healing the shielded ally if you had stacks. I think FOTM's pulse could be changed to damage minions for the sake of a potential 200 heal late game. Rare, but potentially game changing under the right circumstances. Also, with the health changes to Oculus Gem et al., the % health scaling on the shield may need adjustments. Perhaps from 10 --> 12%.

Eye of the Equinox item 2303

+500 health +200% base health regeneration +2 Gold per 10 seconds UNIQUE PASSIVE – SPOILS OF WAR: Melee autoattacks execute minions below 340 - 680 (based on level) health. Killing a minion by any means heals you and the nearest allied champion for 50 health and grants them kill gold. These effects require an allied champion within 850 units of the user and consume a charge. Recharges every 30 seconds. Max 4 charges. UNIQUE PASSIVE – TECHMATURGY: Trinket cooldown reduced by 25%. UNIQUE ACTIVE – VISIONARY: Consumes a charge to create a visible Clairvoyant Zone at target location for up to 240 (based on level) seconds, preventing enemies from placing new Stealth Wards within the zone. While inside the zone, friendly Stealth Wards gain 25% increased sight range and have their remaining time doubled. If the zone ends, any friendly Stealth Wards inside lose their sight range bonus and have their remaining time halved, rounded up. Stores one charge every 180-90 (based on level) seconds, up to 3 maximum charges.

Here we find a simple change of the warding scheme and a trinket cooldown reduction. With the bonus health from Sightstone gone, dropping the health from 500 to 300 seems reasonable, but debatable.

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Ancient Coin item 3301

+25% base health regeneration +25% base mana regeneration +15 out of combat movement speed UNIQUE PASSIVE– FAVOR: Being near a minion death without dealing the killing blow grants 4 Gold and restores 5 Health and 3 Mana. (1400 range)

Live, it is a baby-sitters wet dream, allowing them to simply exist and make money. It is a very uninteractive item and is thematically weak. By adding in out of combat mobility, Ancient Coin and its upgrades will now serve as the item of choice for roaming supports who can make best use of visiting other lanes to soak up gold. Here I again note the importance of allowing supports to give full experience to their allies. You should never get pinged back because your ally doesn't want you taking their experience.

Nomad’s Medallion item 3096

+75% base mana regeneration +75% base health regeneration +25 out of combat movement speed UNIQUE PASSIVE – FAVOR: Being near a minion death without dealing the killing blow grants 6 Gold and restores 10 Health and 6 Mana. (1400 range)

A modest upgrade of Coin's stat line. I will note the increase in regeneration stats across the board, as these things fall off appreciably late game.

Talisman of Ascension item 3069

+40 armor +100% base mana regeneration +150% base health regeneration +40 out of combat movement speed UNIQUE PASSIVE– FAVOR: Being near a minion death without dealing the killing blow grants 6 Gold and restores 10 Health and 6 Mana. (1400 range) UNIQUE PASSIVE– POINT RUNNER: Builds up to +20% Movement Speed over 2 seconds while near turrets and fallen turrets. UNIQUE ACTIVE – ASCEND: Temporarily increases the power of a nearby allied tower or permanently increases the power of a lane minion and grants it immunity to magic damage (120 second cooldown).

Here we find the largest change to the Coin tree, both in terms of gameplay and theme. There are a number of factors at play in this decision:

  • AOE movement speed overlaps with Sivir, Karma, Righteous Glory, and is overall uninspiring. Rework Righteous Glory as a support item.
  • Banner now overlaps considerably with Zz'rot, making it a less distinctive item. Deleted.
  • Ohmwrecker simply does not fit League's scheme as well as Azir's ability to raise towers. Deleted.
  • Talisman is a Shuriman artifact, perhaps even owned by Azir himself. Make it ASCEND things, be it towers or minions.
  • By allowing this kind of flexibility, in conjunction with the added mobility, supports can now get to the scene of the action to help in sieges, or help fight against them. Making a tower kill things faster has innate synergy with FAVOR and simply makes sense. The gold earned by this item could even be split between the support and the nearest ally, again making the support non-punishable for utilizing the item to its fullest capacity.

Eye of the Oasis item 2302

+125% base mana regeneration +125% base health regeneration +40 out of combat movement speed UNIQUE PASSIVE– FAVOR: Being near a minion death without dealing the killing blow grants 6 Gold and restores 10 Health and 6 Mana. (1400 range) UNIQUE PASSIVE – TECHMATURGY: Trinket cooldown reduced by 25%. UNIQUE ACTIVE – VISIONARY: Consumes a charge to create a visible Clairvoyant Zone at target location for up to 240 (based on level) seconds, preventing enemies from placing new Stealth Wards within the zone. While inside the zone, friendly Stealth Wards gain 25% increased sight range and have their remaining time doubled. If the zone ends, any friendly Stealth Wards inside lose their sight range bonus and have their remaining time halved, rounded up. Stores one charge every 180-90 (based on level) seconds, up to 3 maximum charges.

Keeping with the theme of high mobility and roaming, this item simply gains out of combat movement speed and the new warding scheme.

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Spellthief’s Edge item 3303

+25% base mana regeneration +4% bonus healing and shielding power +2 Gold per 10 seconds UNIQUE PASSIVE– TRIBUTE: Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 15 additional damage and grant 6 Gold. This can occur up to 4 times every 30 seconds. Killing a minion disables this passive for 8 seconds, stacking up to 4 times.

This will likely be the biggest source of contention, but hear me out. By making this item a bonus healing and shielding item, it does several things:

  • Janna and Soraka now want it over coin in some cases
  • Janna and Soraka will now have to play aggressively to proc the gold income
  • AP utility scaling can be changed and fixed now that supports dont get AP
  • AP supports like Morgana and Lux will likely benefit from this in terms of their support contributions
  • AP supports like Zyra and Brand will fall off as is appropriate To make up for the lack of AP (damage), I would suggest bumping up the damage on proc, lowering the gold income on hit, and increasing the limit of procs from 3 to 4.

Frostfang item 3098

+75% base mana regeneration +12% bonus healing and shielding power +2 Gold per 10 seconds UNIQUE PASSIVE– TRIBUTE: Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 20 additional damage and grant 12 Gold. This can occur up to 4 times every 30 seconds. Killing a minion disables this passive for 6 seconds, stacking up to 4 times.

Changes here are in line with swapping AP for healing and shielding power. You may have also noticed a paradigm shift on killing minions. The biggest thing here is I don't want a support to be punished quite as hard for killing minions, but I would like to see mages punished for farming with this item. This approach is debatable and likely requires tuning.

Frost Queen’s Claim item 3092

+125% base mana regeneration +20% healing and shielding power +10% cooldown reduction +2 Gold per 10 seconds UNIQUE PASSIVE– TRIBUTE: Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 20 additional damage and grant 12 Gold. This can occur up to 4 times every 30 seconds. Killing a minion disables this passive for 6 seconds, stacking up to 4 times. UNIQUE ACTIVE: Summon 2 icy ghosts for 6 seconds that seek out nearby enemy champions (4500 range). Ghosts reveal enemies on contact and reduce their movement speed by 40% for 2–5 seconds (90 second cooldown.)

Changes here are in line with swapping AP for healing and shielding power. Additionally, I see no reason why a fully upgraded FQC should lose its negative association with farming minions. I understand wanting item diversity, but that should not apply to non-supports buying items meant purely for supports. There should be a consequence, and it should remain consistent.

Eye of the Watchers item 2301

+100% base mana regeneration +10% healing and shielding power +10% cooldown reduction +2 Gold per 10 seconds UNIQUE PASSIVE– TRIBUTE: Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 20 additional damage and grant 12 Gold. This can occur up to 4 times every 30 seconds. Killing a minion disables this passive for 6 seconds, stacking up to 4 times. UNIQUE PASSIVE – TECHMATURGY: Trinket cooldown reduced by 25%. UNIQUE ACTIVE – VISIONARY: Consumes a charge to create a visible Clairvoyant Zone at target location for up to 240 (based on level) seconds, preventing enemies from placing new Stealth Wards within the zone. While inside the zone, friendly Stealth Wards gain 25% increased sight range and have their remaining time doubled. If the zone ends, any friendly Stealth Wards inside lose their sight range bonus and have their remaining time halved, rounded up. Stores one charge every 180-90 (based on level) seconds, up to 3 maximum charges.

A weaker version of FQC in terms of healing and shielding power, but opens up an item slot. Also receives the changes to vision as per Oculus Gem / Ocular Scepter.

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Whew that was tiring.... Please leave some feedback and get some discussion going on![slayer-jinx-catface]

49 Comments

DrugsForRobots3 votes

I like the effort you put into this, and your summary of why supporting is kinda lackluster for most people is accurate (all those bullet points you mentioned.)

However, I can't upvote this because I don't think it addresses the real problem with the vision game: that wards and most other sources of vision are low-counterplay, low-interaction for the opponent.

Let's look at your new take on SS to see what I mean:

VISIONARY: Consumes a charge to create a visible Clairvoyant Zone at target location for up to X (based on level) seconds, preventing enemies from placing new Stealth Wards within the zone. While inside the zone, friendly Stealth Wards gain Y% increased sight range and have their remaining time doubled. If the zone ends, any friendly Stealth Wards inside lose their sight range bonus and have their remaining time halved, rounded up. Stores one charge every 180-90 (based on level) seconds, up to Z maximum charges.

It's a cool idea that supports could create a zone that makes wards placed by teammates better, but what outplay potential does it offer for the opponent? The Clairvoyant Zone can be seen by enemies, which is a good start, but beyond that they have no way of interacting with it. It's an AoE zone that isn't derived from a ward-object that they can destroy or disable. The zone also makes it impossible for the enemy to place wards (I don't really have a problem with this necessarily). It enhancing friendly wards would be cool, except that wards still suffer from the aforementioned lack of interaction and counterplay. (None of your changes gave wards more inherent counterplay. The enemy still needs a specific item to hard-counter any wards placed - they still need a specific item just to interact with wards at all.

You see what I'm getting at?

If you want to make the vision game / info wars more exciting and fair for everyone and truly a team effort, trying coming up with wards and trinkets that aren't such easy and safe ways of getting sight.

If we had wards that were fallible, had some weakness or blind-spot that the enemy players could exploit, then ganking is still a possibility because the opponent (and your jungler when he goes to gank the enemy) can play around those wards by virtue of his or her own skill and strategy.

Wards need to be overt and explicit about how they control an area and what area they control. Wards need to give opponents the information they need to outplay that wards. Currently, the entire warding game is about item vs item interaction instead of player vs item (organic) interaction. If wards could be outplayed, they could afford to be FREE and much more powerful and specific in their effects.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Well, for starters, do you know what else is low interaction, low counterplay? Lee Sin level 3 ganks while you are level 1.

Joke aside, I think that if all wards were easily destroyed, there would never be any vision and everything would be played blindly, something that Riot said is unhealthy for the game. Teams that get an early lead would dominate the vision game from the start, preventing behind teams from EVER making a comeback. Having access to vision is MUCH stronger for a team that is ahead than a team that is behind. If you make it so that there is ample counterplay for every source of vision, the game would become much more snowballed.

In my iteration of the new Sightstone, there are fewer wards overall. The wards that ARE in game would be revealed half the time by the circle, thus indicating that you should sweep there or avoid that spot. One idea that I had is that if you Red Sweeper'd a zone for so long, it would destroy the zone. This could extend to Scuttle Zones too.

Now, I do think that a sweeping ward (side to side vision) and things like Kalista's Sentinal and FQC ghosts are VERY interesting. I also think that they add a lot more depth to something that new players already struggle with quite hard. We can't have 6 different types of wards unfortunately. So currently all I am trying to do is to take the current system, and make it a bit better. I think that Riot implementing regenerating health on Control Wards was a GREAT step because I have actually fought over wards several times. Same with Scuttle Crab. However, I don't want to do that with EVERY ward. That would be a headache.

So yeah, overall I see what you're saying, but I'll have to think about that a little more and see if my response lines up after reconsidering. And thank you for taking the time to read my post. I appreciate your reply very much.

Mr Carbon1 votes

I'm torn between down-voting for asking for no downvotes... or up-voting for actually taking the time to write something this long.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I'm only asking that if you downvote, to please let me know WHY you downvoted. Otherwise I receive no feedback from people who disagree with me, whose opinions I still value.

EDIT: Changed the heading a little bit. Like I said, I am fine with downvotes. I just wanna know why.

Teridax681 votes

It is unfortunately common practice for people on Gameplay to downvote anything they disagree with, no matter how well-written or constructive the post. Similarly, you should not downvote someone's thread simply because they asked you to give their OP a fair evaluation. It may sound desperate to make that kind of plea, but seeing how many positive threads get shot down every day, while the front page gets overrun constantly by memes, reposts, and naked upvote farm posts, the first few votes on these threads really are absolutely critical to whether or not they get any attention at all.

Mr Carbon1 votes

Kappa [zombie-brand-facepalm]

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

^ That is the trend I have noticed thus far... It is very difficult to have a serious discussion that gains any sort of traction.

awesomer1111 votes

please join rito. supports are people too

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Working on it. I post a lot of stuff on the boards and have been slowly working up muh skillz. Even started designing a little card game to work on balancing and whatnot.

khorney1 votes

the worst gold income in the game is face of the mountain and the sightstone counter part. Frost queens has the highest in gold income and ancient coin is pretty good if you have the mastery to go along with it. Out side of laning youll never get the relic shield stacks off

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I agree. It is very hard to proc Relix Shield outside of lane. I think the biggest reason for that is that at low levels, you can execute melee minions at 50% health, whereas later on you have to wait till they are at 25% health. You can usually 1-hit KO a caster, but it can be hard to get to them in time.

I would like to actually see if Riot keeps track of the gold income on each item over time. I know there is GP5 in Relic Shield's statline, but IDK if it is enough.

khorney1 votes

its not so much that its ur team wont let u proc it. so in turn outside of laning its worthless while anicnemt coin u gain 7 gold nonstop

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I have gotten in a habit of pinging OMW and pinging my relic shield and usually I can nab one or two np. It just sucks when I try to AA a minion and it doesnt work so I waste time and they try to help and it just dies.... lol

khorney1 votes

this is why i take ancient coin alot of the time. or frost queens sightstone item. i mean all your losing is healing other people and the shield and 200hp. your gaining mana regen cdr and ap depnding on your suppp. its not that bad and better gold gain

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

The shield is PRETTY strong late game TBH, and the heal used to be pretty solid. Nowadays, the item isn't AS good, but I think its better than coin by far. Where Im at (G4), I don't have much trouble actually proccing Relic Shield and getting rid of most the stacks, but it does take a good amount of effort and planning and coordinating. More effort than Spellthief and a HELL of a lot more effort than coin.

Fun fact: Ran relic on Janna and actually earned 1000 gold with it. The shield was VASTLY superior to FQC or Talisman.

Penns1 votes

Those changes would probably be nice but I really dont agree with people complaining about supports. Like its one of the strongest roles in the game if their teammates know what theyre doing and gold isnt really a problem since 1) you have gold generating items and 2) your items are way cheaper than normal ones.

The only thing I agree with is that supports depend on their team a lot but... thats kind of the point of being a "support"..

AHarmlessTaco2 votes

I main support, so by no means do I hate the role. I do dislike a number of things about it, but perhaps my biggest issue is that you depend on your team, but your team doesn't really depend on you. So many ADCs have self peel and mobility built in. Everyone does a lot of damage. Most everyone has some kind of CC. And with supports like Brand or Zyra, who even needs a support when you can just be a 2nd mid laner?

In my opinion, Janna is and has been one of the strongest supports simply because of how powerful her Q and R are. I pick her legitimately just to shut out people with strong dashes that I can interrupt mid-dash twice per fight. I almost do not care about items at all on her, and that is kind of what support has always been about.

I don't think that supports are inherently weak overall, but things like 'utility that scales with AP' really just feel gimmicky. I would like to see shields and heals scale less with AP and I would like to see someone like Lulu be able to go mid without being completely oppressive or support without being totally useless. If this means changing up itemization pretty hard, then it's just a matter of finding ways to do it that make sense.

Alianoid1 votes

Overall, I like the changes, might make supporting more interesting. However, I don't feel that item 3056 should be removed considering it's origin, a rework is in order, however.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Was wondering if someone would bring up the item's origin. As much as I'm all for keeping things that are sentimental, it is really hard to justify keeping the item in its current niche. Sure you could rework it, but I mean.... it wouldn't be the same item anymore IMO. Just like how I decided to get rid of Sightstone considering the new item is so different from it.

Teridax681 votes

There are several things I don't agree with here, and I'd take a different direction entirely for vision on supports (I personally believe supports should ward exactly as much as anyone else, no more, no less), but I think the OP is still worth upvoting because you have put a lot of effort and analysis into your work.

My issue with Ocular Gem and its subsequent upgrades is that the line would likely become a must-rush, since the first item can be bought at level 1 and provides tremendous vision, whereas each subsequent version grants more of it. Sightstone currently only performs slightly better than a yellow trinket, yet is considered a must-rush for supports, simply because it's another vision option. Effectively, this would risk forcing supports down the exact same item path for the first 2.2k gold every match.

For Talisman of Ascension, I'd rather keep its current active, since the burst of movement speed it provides is tremendously useful, and quite fun. Considering how the item is already quite conducive to turtling, giving it the potential to stall games even further might not be a great idea. I'm also opposed to removing the AP from the blue trinket line, because AP is a valuable stat on supports, and I do think mages deserve a place in bot lane, even if they shouldn't be so dominant as to force other supports out completely.

While this sounds like complete opposition to the work you've made, there are several parts of your post that I do like and agree with. I agree that supports tend to lack agency during the laning phase, for example, and giving them an early item active to play with sounds like a potentially great solution to that. I also dislike how Sightstone offers health to champions who may not really want it, and while I personally want the item gone, having it provide no generic stats is nice. It is very good of you to have made this thread, and the more constructive feedback on supports we get on Boards, the easier it will be for Riot to improve gameplay for the position and the class in the future.

AHarmlessTaco3 votes

Even if you do not agree with me, I very much value and appreciate your feedback. As with everyone, I will simply try to provide additional context on my ideas and see if I can persuade you. I can see that you make solid points, so I will strongly consider them as I write, and if you still do not agree with me after I reply, I will have to consider your points more strongly in the long run. (It can take a bit for things to sink in once I get going).

Let me begin by saying that a lot of supports VALUE the ward mini game. It is something that has always set the support role apart from the rest, for better or for worse. To make the support ward as much as everyone else is to take that aspect of League from them. Now, for those who hate being a Ward Bitch, hey, they would LOVE the idea of not having to ward so much. To those ends, I really cannot say which is better, only that I believe that warding is an essential form of utility that is currently core to supports and is hard to reproduce on other roles. I am sticking within that framework, but I am also trying to get other roles more active in warding. Call it a middle ground for me.

I mean, yes. Oculus Gem WOULD be a rush item almost EVERY game. But so is Sightstone, and at 800 gold instead of my proposed 400. I truly do not believe that Oculus Gem's upgrades would be rushed, nor should they be. My goal was to make it an appealing option, but not something that is truly needed until mid-game. I very often find that trinkets are more than enough to provide vision during the laning phase. Sightstone is overkill if you ask me.

Wanting to keep the movement speed bonus is something that would make this a really hard change to make. For thematic and gameplay reasons, I think that my iteration of Talisman's active would be a compelling option to consider. A temporary boost to towers would be a stalling tactic, but with Zz'rot and other Talisman's and Baron Nashor in game, I do not think it would be strong into the late game. The goal would to help against tower dives early on, and to help a support push back a wave a little bit. The tower could be made to prioritize champions and shoot SLIGHTLY faster and that may be all the reprieve someone needs early on. Late game, it would transition to more of a siege item like Banner, something I find to be an interesting concept.

With this change would come some kind of buff to Righteous Glory. I REALLY liked the item when it gave allies MS. My proposed change would be to have the item grant nearby allies 25% mS while moving towards enemies, and for the next 4 seconds you leave a trail that grants unconditional 25% movement speed. That way, when pursuing enemies, your allies gain 50% MS if you lead the charge, and if you are retreating, your allies can follow you with a 25% MS bonus. A change like this would make the item VIABLE again, while also making it fairly selective in how it works. Make it a support item and boom, replacement Talisman.

As for removing AP from the Spellthief line, I truly think it is the best way to keep the item from being abused mid lane and to keep mage supports in check. As things are right now, whenever I dont trust my team I pick Brand bot lane and end up dealing as much damage as my mid laner. Consistently. This is simply not a good approach if you ask me. It is unhealthy for the game. Do I think that Zyra and Brand belong in the bot lane? Sure. I just want them to be picked for their Rylai's synergy, not for their late game damage. Another key point is that I dislike AP-scaling utility. It is a gimmick if you ask me. Not to mention, with the damage changes to Tribute, I do not think that most supports would be losing a lot of damage overall.

That is all I have to argue at this point. Like I said, I really do appreciate your feedback and I have tried to make some points to contend with your concerns. If you still have concerns, feel VERY free to voice them. It is these kinds of discussions that get the brain juices flowing.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

Let me begin by saying that a lot of supports VALUE the ward mini game. It is something that has always set the support role apart from the rest, for better or for worse.

This is true, and while a great deal many players dislike Sightstone, there are also a lot of other players who like the idea of supports being masters of vision. Perhaps there is a middle ground to be found, where supports can access vision tools unique to them without being forced to rush them every game, but I think the issue with the above is that it doesn't exactly address that, since that additional vision power is still dependent on a must-rush item.

{quoted}

I mean, yes. Oculus Gem WOULD be a rush item almost EVERY game. But so is Sightstone, and at 800 gold instead of my proposed 400. I truly do not believe that Oculus Gem's upgrades would be rushed, nor should they be. My goal was to make it an appealing option, but not something that is truly needed until mid-game. I very often find that trinkets are more than enough to provide vision during the laning phase. Sightstone is overkill if you ask me.

Rushing Sightstone might be overkill to you, to me, and to many other players, but that is what is currently expected of supports. Oculus Gem means they'd be forced to ditch their gold income item to start with that instead, which in the long run might harm them, as they'd lose a lot of gold and starting build diversity. Again, vision in the game is so powerful and in such high demand that, if there is a way for the support to access additional vision over the enemy team, that becomes their very first priority in a competitive setting.

{quoted}

A temporary boost to towers would be a stalling tactic, but with Zz'rot and other Talisman's and Baron Nashor in game, I do not think it would be strong into the late game. The goal would to help against tower dives early on, and to help a support push back a wave a little bit. The tower could be made to prioritize champions and shoot SLIGHTLY faster and that may be all the reprieve someone needs early on. Late game, it would transition to more of a siege item like Banner, something I find to be an interesting concept.

Stalling and sieging are two very separate niches that you're putting on the same item, which means its effects are unlikely to be very strong together, as they'd be taking from the same power budget. Even now, by the time you get ToA, the laning phase is either over or about to be, so having an active specifically designed to protect against tower dives might be a little late at that point.

{quoted}

With this change would come some kind of buff to Righteous Glory. I REALLY liked the item when it gave allies MS. My proposed change would be to have the item grant nearby allies 25% mS while moving towards enemies, and for the next 4 seconds you leave a trail that grants unconditional 25% movement speed.

This sounds pretty good. I'd be up for making Righteous Glory buff allies' movement speed again, though the bonuses it grants are different from ToA, since RG's bonus movement speed is purely offensive and meant for initiation, whereas the latter's is more versatile, and can be used for escaping or repositioning.

{quoted}

As for removing AP from the Spellthief line, I truly think it is the best way to keep the item from being abused mid lane and to keep mage supports in check. As things are right now, whenever I dont trust my team I pick Brand bot lane and end up dealing as much damage as my mid laner.

If the issue is with Brand not needing too much item scaling to do well, then the solution should be to nerf Brand's bases and increase his scalings, as was done to Annie during the Preseason 4 support rework. AP is a useful stat on many non-mage supports, and taking it away just takes away from their build diversity, while also depriving mage supports of the few good AP + utility options they have.

{quoted}

Do I think that Zyra and Brand belong in the bot lane? Sure. I just want them to be picked for their Rylai's synergy, not for their late game damage.

The entire point of bringing a mage to bot lane is to access damage an enchanter-type support cannot produce. Conversely, for maximum crowd control, you bring in either an enchanter or a tank support. Setting the highest possible achievement of mage supports to be a sub-par version of enchanter support goals is not healthy for anyone, as it doesn't make for the most interesting fantasy (especially since you're making it revolve around just one item), and creates a fair amount of overlap.

{quoted}

Another key point is that I dislike AP-scaling utility. It is a gimmick if you ask me.

The only reason AP-to-utility ratios aren't as heavily used as they could be is because most supports do not have great access to AP, and are still expected to have poor item scaling. In a world where supports got to scale properly with items, and purchase acceptable amounts of AP, those ratios would naturally allow for that. Even now, though, those ratios are still used by supports when they go for an AP purchase, and they're not really that different in practice from, say, an AP ratio on a shield or a heal, both of which are forms of utility.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I am 100% SUPPORTive of finding a healthy middle ground between "Ward Bitch" and "Master of Vision". If I were to find an ideal spot, it would be a "Vision Tactician", someone who has a leadership role in the vision game, but does not dominate it.

I think the biggest problem I run into is this: If you have a vision tool available, it is a must rush because junglers gank early on. If you do not have a vision tool available, junglers ganking becomes oppressive and no one takes risks because they are too uninformed to do so.

This makes for a very difficult situation because, as you said, vision tools need to be available but not rushed to the detriment of the support. This leaves me in the realm of A. Use GP5 items to provide vision B. Use a summoner slot to provide vision C. Make trinkets more accessible to supports

Now, I have something like this: Summoner Spell: Place a Clairvoyant Zone. GP5 items: Can only be purchased with above Summoner Spell. Also grants +20% trinket cooldown reduction. Players: WE WANT SUMMONER SPELL DIVERSITY!

I am all for brainstorming, but it is a VERY difficult topic to work with.

I think this covers the first few paragraph of your response. As for stalling and sieging, I believe them to be very similar niches. Consider what Banner and Zzrot already do. They stall, and they siege. No one seems to have a problem with this. Putting these two abilities on the same cooldown is all the budgeting I think is needed to make both abilities viable without breaking them. Tuning to these buffs could be adjusted, but I don't think either would be game breaking on a support. I do agree that it may be a little late by the time you buy the item, but I would rather see it finished by the end of the laning phase than early on. I think towers fall a little too quickly right now to be honest, but that is a different topic.

That is why I suggested some utility changes to Righteous Glory. Give it SOME escape power, but mostly budget it for engage. I think it could work out with tuning. Debatable.

I don't think the issue is that Brand doesn't need scaling. It is that he has access to AP items in the first place. I just played a game yesterday, hit full build at 40 minutes with Eye, Liandrys, Rylais, Void Staff, Zhonyas, and Boots. I did more damage than anyone else in the game, provided vision, and provided CC. There was 0 reason for me to pick any other support that game. I dominated the lane 2v1 from the start, and never had any issues aside from my team misplaying. (Okay, I messed up a few times.) I think the main problem is that I am exchanging some utility for a LOT of damage. It is not healthy for the game IMO, and I think that if you run Brand support, it should be for his base damages and that he should start to fall off late game.

I think that shield/heal power on items at low cost with high base CC will be the best route to take when considering mage supports. Enchanters... you know. I think that AP has far too much overlap with damage-oriented midlaners and is simply too easy for them to abuse. I don't think there is a way to really give supports access to ample AP without it being abused. It just doesn't seem to fit and makes Lulu top oppressive.

I am getting a good amount of feedback concerning getting rid of Sightstone and to support mages in the bot lane, so I will consider those things pretty heavily. If you have more concerns, I would strongly advise reading through some of my other responses, namely those responding to Nami Fish Hentai in this same post. He has made some good points as well.

(Feel free and welcome to respond here, I just know that there is some overlap between this and other conversations that might save you and I some time. I am loving these discussions but they are VERY challenging and my lil' brain is having a difficult time keeping up!)

Teridax681 votes

I completely agree that vision on supports is an extremely difficult topic, not just because the implementation itself of any potential vision is really delicate, but also because there's a major playerbase split as to how supports should even interact with vision. The three options you listed are correct, but I think you might also want to consider option C a bit more: in another thread made by DrugsForRobots, one potential implementation that came up was to add some sort of set bonus effect: basically, several support items would have a passive that, if stacked a certain amount of times, would unlock access to an entirely new set of trinkets in the shop. If you were to add that passive to items like the GP5 options, Redemption, Mikael's Crucible, etc., you could have supports opt into additional vision without having to keep Sightstone around, and without having to bring back Clairvoyance or an equivalent.

Re: BoC and ZZ'Rot Portal, I think both of their bonuses come down to additional pushing power, rather than straight-up sieging or stalling. If you really want to follow their example, you could just remove the tower buffing component completely and instead just keep the active to a minion buff, without incurring any major loss to its niche.

The issue with the Brand build you mention is that most of the AP he's getting there comes from raw AP items, with Eye of the Watchers only providing 25 AP. Taking that out wouldn't drastically affect his late-game build, and would likely just encourage him to ditch support items completely once he can afford to replace them with a mage item. Putting aside how 40 minutes is an extremely long time to reach full items, the build itself has only very little utility. You effectively made a huge tradeoff for that AP, and the total amount that build brings stays under 400 AP, which is mediocre. If you are dealing more damage than anyone else with that build, then the issue may just lie with Brand having too much damage.

While I do think AP can be easy for mid laners to abuse, I think it's for completely different reasons: the abuse cases on AP support items come from players picking them in mid lane on mages, not from mages scaling too hard off of them in bot lane. In fact, a defining trait of bot lane-viable mage supports is a high amount of base damage, and lesser scalings, so in the end, taking AP out of support itemization just denies an interesting choice to supports who'd like to have the stat. I think it's perfectly okay for some supports to be more damage- and kill-focused, so long as they make appropriate tradeoffs, and even if champions like Brand and Zyra might be a bit too good in bot lane right now, that comes down to their own power distribution, whereas pretty much every other mage stays healthy even in the support role.

Sexy Fish Nami1 votes

After reading the post, I have found your ideas really unique and interesting. When I see ideology like that, I try to see it in many situations and thus I will give my opinion that is mixed with the perspectives of what others might see it as (well I will atleast try)

Lets begin shall we?

The clairvoyant zone mechanics, imo, wouldnt fit right into an item, Actually, i'd see it as a trinket. Like all opinions and reasoning, I will explain. The problem with the clairvoyant zone is that it requires the help of another champion to ward for you. The only way you can have some type of self synergy is if you have the warding trinket. The problem with the warding trinket compared to the sightstone we have is the lack of reliability dues to its cooldown. Every time you back with sightstone and its similar items, you get 3-4 wards (depending on the item). With this, you can plan it out like you want and if you have 4 wards, you have one in case something goes wrong or need immediate vision on a certain place on the field. Secondly, having the warding trinket removes the possibility of having sweeping len. You can change if you want, but at this point you will be once more reliant on your team. The support role is reliant on his teammates, but that doesn't mean the role can't have self synergy and be just focused on his teammates to do everything. However, the clairvoyant zone that you mention is a mechanic I would really love to see and refined in the game as it can have a big impact if you use it wisely. Also, I am aware that if the clairvoyant zone is a trinket, you will lose the potential for the sweeping len, but atleast you will have more vision reliability and more self control of the vision of your team, wich I think is better.

Let's talk about the items now, let's just ignore the clairvoyant zone and talk about the stats changes on the items of the family of ancient coin and spellthief edge. I think adding mana restoration on minion deaths near the champion is a bit too strong. Not only does it give alot mana/health regen + restore your health by just being here, now you want mana restoration as well? Ancient coin family has always been tough to people who plays aggressively (Hi!) because it can make the opponent starve his mana/hp while you regen easily with the stats and the health restoration the item gives. If it gives mana, this item might be too strong on people such as janna and soraka. You may add the fact that they will lose the healing and shielding power from the spellthief edge family, but they can get it back easily with mikael crucible, redemption, ardent censer and an early forbidden idol buy. So in the end, they won't lose much. Now that I have cover the ancient coin family, lets talk about the spellthief edge and its improvements. By removing the ap, you are nerfing mage supports such as zyra and brand, wich removes solo queue supports of choice for alot of players. You may add a little damage from the passive of the spellthiefs items, but its not enough. Their job is to kill the enemy bot lane or put pressure so his adc can farm well. Do I agree about mage supports? fuck no but it is what it is for now. I do like, however, the reduction of gold per hit but adding an additional stack of it. This can bring more gold then the previous fqc and its related items, but it also bring a bgger danger as you need to hit the enemy more time. Also, I think 20% more healing power and shielding power to fqc is a bit too much and I think 15% would be more appropriate. If you want a better healing/shielding power, buy mikael.

I have made a post not so long ago about me complaining on the support role. If you want to seek idea that are considered weird, I would recommend you to try read it. Again, I really liked your idea but i think it can be tweaked a little.

AHarmlessTaco2 votes

Alright, solid feedback. I am going to go ahead and attempt to defend my work from each of your points, but I will go ahead and say that you make VERY good ones worth heavy consideration. When you read this, take it as a 'let me explain myself' and not a 'I disagree with you' type of response. In the end, I very well may end up agreeing with you.

The first point I would like to make is that the Clairvoyant Zone DOES reveal the area inside it's circle. Though it provides a smaller sight field than wards and is visible to enemy champions,it meant to be a fair substitute for current Sightstone if placed in choke-points or on the edges of bushes.

Regarding the lack of reliability on trinkets, I put in the 30% Trinket cooldown reduction and longer ward duration to help alleviate some of this problem. While you may not be getting as many wards, well placed wards should, ideally, last longer. Even if they are not your own. Something to consider is an across the board Yellow Trinket cooldown reduction, from say 180-90 to 170-80.

A big point of contention here is that 'emergency' ward. I really have to disagree here a bit, even though I see your point. I think that if you are not managing your wards properly, you should not have access to such easy replacement wards. If you are up in their base taking towers and back, then they start sieging you, you shouldn't just have a full set of wards to defend with. Believe me, I do this as a support. When I back, I will set a perimeter of wards then immediately back again so that I have more wards for the offense if needed. Provided my team is just farming side lanes or jungle of course.

As for making Sweeper an unviable item.... again, the Zones do provide SOME vision of their own. This field could grow in size with item upgrades perhaps. The zones could wait ~20 seconds before starting to count down if they have no allied wards in them. I mean, inherently, if you place these zones and your team DOESNT fill them, I think that should be a lesson to you that you placed it in a poor location. You have 4 teammates, one of which can buy a jungle ward item. SOMEONE should be able to fill the zones with a ward if you choose to get the sweeper. I would almost be okay with them removing blue trinket and making some kind of ADC ward item that has a little synergy with support players. This would mean the support places a zone, and the adc fills it. I think that would make for GREAT gameplay tbh. Anything that gets the ADC working with the support is a plus in my book.

You are right on the restoration part of the Coin family. One thing I want to note, however, is that this item is now being designed for roaming supports who may not want to back often. I could simply remove a lot of the base stats this item gives, that would be a great way to emphasize 'GET TO A LANE' for these kinds of supports. As a whole though, I don't think that health and mana regen are as strong of stats as others.

As for Spellthief, you might be surprised as how fast the damage from proccing the items can add up. Surely getting an extra bit of damage and a 4th proc can add up. The big point you hit here though is mage supports. Plain and simple, I dont think they should be dealing much damage in the bot lane. I think it is a cheese strategy to run a mage as a support and to see them deal more damage than the mid laner. All too often I play Brand support and out damage everyone on my team. With Rylai's being cheaper, I think mage supports will have much better access to a strong form of utility. They need some kind of toning down IMO.

As for Janna and Soraka, I think they need to be driven away from the Coin line. I think it creates too much passive play in their laning phase. 20% bonus healing and shielding is a large amount, but when you consider the shielding gained from 50AP and the potential damage output, you'll find that the gold value is about the same. From the Wiki: "Forbidden Idol can be gold efficient if its passive is worth at least 283.33 Gold (or the equivalent of 13 Ability Power bought for the same boost. For example, Soraka's rank 2 Astral Infusion heals the same either with 0 AP using Idol passive or with 15 AP. In this case the passive has a value of 15 AP, so it's worth 375 Gold.)"

Considering damage barely matters to these champions, and considering how unhealthy utility scaling with AP is (IMO), I think you will find that the 20% healing and shielding bonus is not so bad. Especially considering the fact that AP scaling on shields is multiplicatively effective with a % increase item, trading 50AP for 20% increased healing and shielding should be a fair trade. If nothing else, it is definitely a boon for Athene's users and a nerf to AP carry supports. It CERTAINLY won't make mid-laners abuse the item anymore. All of these points together make me think that it would be worth a shot.

Whew. Dat was a lot. Take a minute, see if I have changed your mind, and if not then I will REALLY have to consider your points better. It can take me a little while for ideas to sink in when I get excited about something, but eventually I'll come around.

Sexy Fish Nami1 votes

Well, I didn't read the clairvoyant zone correctly enough so I didn't know it gave vision, but there is still some problems for me.

First of all, let's talk about the fast pace of the game. LoL is not in season 1 and 2 as before, the pace of the game as increased by a shit ton. From an average back in those seasons 60 min games to a 30 in average min game right now, emergency wards are more crucial then ever. The pace of the game forces adaptation in battle and planning before the combat. You may set up wards before backing, but most of the time its to clear a path for you team to know if its safe to go there, or if the ennemy is in this area so you can go siege bot and etc. If what you want is going to be realized, there will be alot of issues and too much risks for the winning team. the losing team should be the one careful and the team that should take big risks, not the winning one. And even if you want what you want, your idea is even stronger then what we have right now, having a whole area covered by unseen vision that the ennemy cant even counter with a sweeper while having up to 4 clairvoyant zone that can boost the wards of other? your idea is even more snowbally then the normal ward system that we have right. Wich is why it should be a trinket and not in a item that holds charges without cooldowns. Not only does it reveal an area a buff wards, but it also stop ennemies from placing wards. You do realize your idea of careful planning, but the charge system is contradicting it. A trinket with no charges and only cooldown could make it more balanced and fair.

Let me show you an example.

Lets just say your team is on the red side, and you are sieging the second bot turret of the blue side. With the ward trinket and the clairvoyant zone (if we think that both visions item have max charges) can cover up almost all of the jungle that leads to the lane while also stopping the ennemy from warding it in case theres an ambush. You are making the vision snowballing even worse then before. I do understand that the winning team should have an upper hand on almost everything, but now you are stopping the possibilities of a comeback even better and that will bring unhealthy gameplay.

The thing about sweeper is that theres a risk when you use it to clear wards. It makes you have to plan your path and even your escape path while also keeping in mind that they might be preparing an ambush on you. This makes the support have to plan stuff while the clairvoyant zone makes the support be safe. There should be a risk if you want to clear vision. if we put the clairvoyant zone as a trinket, it will be the safe way to play out a game and if you are losing, even the best option while sweeping len will be more offensive oriented and more controlling around the map. This will make the supports to decide what type of warding strategy they want to develop.

Lets talk about the coin item and the spellthief item once more. To understand it, I had to think of them as if they were in the game right now and I was playing someone such as janna.

If i was playing janna and I was looking at both item and their upgrades, I would still take the gold coin. The mana restoration is just too good to be missed. in one wave, you can get up to 36 mana and 60 health, and that is by not adding the big mana regen and health regen the item gives. This item just deny all the downside of soraka heal as well. Yes they might be missing the heal/shield augmentation, but like I said, there is ardent censer, forbidden idol. redemption and mikael crucible that can replace fqc. windspeaker can just make up for it early game with the defense buff and the heal/shield augmentation it gives. Also, talismant of ascension can buff the turret, but you dont give any information on what the buff do.

Mages support have a big weakness, and its their squishinest. They are even more vulnerable then enchanters because they only have some cc and dmg. Tanks supports are either vanguards, engagers, or wardens, peeling supports. They may not have heals or shields, but they have defensive buffs for the adc or self defense buffs combined with Braum alotLeona ofAlistar fuckingThresh ccBlitzcrank . Enchanters have less cc, but they have sustain (shield/heals) combined with offensive buffs. Janna is the first enchantress. Her shield gives tenporary health (sustain) and attack damage (offensive buffs). Nami, my favorite enchantress, as a heal (sustain) and her e gives magic dmg and a slow to basic attacks (offensive buffs). Finally, we have the mage supports that came out of someone ass. As much as I hate them for their ridiculous amount of damage, they are also the most weak to cc. They can be easily killed by a thresh hook or a nami bubble, requiring them to be careful. They are the risk/reward support because if they fail in lane, they dont have much use later unless the game goes on for a long time. For that, if we nerf their early damage, they will become non existant.

Then again, I am eager to see your response.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Just to be clear: The Clairvoyant Zone is visible to the enemy team and can be destroyed by Sweeper by sweeping it for a certain duration. The time it takes to clear a ward inside the zone would be roughly the same time it takes to sweep the Clairvoyant Zone away, thus enabling someone to clear 2-3 C. Zones while a Sweeper is active. The zone would provide its own small vision radius, and may or may not contain a ward. Thus sweeping it may or may not be super effective. By placing a ward in it, the effectiveness of the ward is increased at the cost of increased risk of sweeper-induced damage. While the zone is invisible to the enemy through the fog of war, any attempt to place a ward in an enemy zone will clearly reveal the zone for a few seconds, thus indicating the area that you cannot ward. Clairvoyant Zones will have a lifespan indicated by a decreasing circular aura, similar to that of Inhibitor respawns. As per your argument stating that you will be unable to ward due to the Zones, the simplest answer is to just ward further up river. This creates an element of risk.

With that cleared up, I will move on. I am slightly confused by your argument of cooldown VS charge on this kind of item / trinket. Whether it is a trinket or item should not matter for the sake of deciding on Charge refill at base or over time with cooldowns. As it is, it has a cooldown and charge system similar to trinkets.

I do agree that the game pace has increased and that more vision is ALWAYS in demand. I am all for the idea of this being a trinket or summoner spell related concept. That is an area that I have not explored yet and is worth consideration.

A large note to be made here is that all mana and health gains through items can be tuned. There is no reason to take the face value of this change as literally as you have here. My goal was to simply standardize how the item works a bit and to incentivize being in a lane to gain restoration. With increased mobility comes the desire to roam without sitting in a lane. This item is designed to get from lane to lane and not to allow free roam and sustain. You argue that Soraka and Janna can just opt into other %heal and shield bonus items, but the same could be said of anyone. Just because you can gain stats from elsewhere, doesnt mean you should give up a first item so quickly. That is like saying "I'm an ADC and I'm going to rush Guardian Angel because I can just get AD from Infinity Edge second item." Reality is, they want as much AD, AS, and crit as they can get, plus some Lifesteal to supplement it.

Talisman buffing towers was a concept. Putting in a concrete idea is.... unproductive. If I leave it to people's imaginations, they will think of ways they would like it to be used. Lasers, AOE ring of lightning, faster shooting, big fat shield for the tower, recharging shield on allies.... I mean really, whatever seems most balanced is what I might go for. The idea is getting combining Banner and Talisman and seeing where it goes.

I don't care to nerf Mage's early damage, but I do think their late game contributions are just too much. Brand and Zyra can and do build a good amount of health and have the CC to keep themselves alive. They also have the ability to 2v1 in the bot lane and can make certain lanes absolutely oppressive (See: Caitlyn, Zyra). When someone picks a support, it should not be to deal more damage than the mid laner. It should be to add supplemental damage, enhancements, utility, tankiness.... really anything BUT damage. That is my opinion, and others do not agree, and that is fine. But I think the fact that I prefer Brand over Braum because Brand can carry is a problem.

Altonius Amakiir1 votes

I haven't read much of your post yet(plan to come back to it when I have some more time), but I wanted to let you know, in a recent twitch video league made they said they are looking at ways to increase gold to supports, the problem is it needs to be in a way other roles can't abuse. Other things that were said is that they want to expand the champion pool that is viable in the support role, such as assassins and specifically mentioned, Orianna.

Again, haven't looked at the majority of your proposed changes yet, but they just did a support item rework, so I doubt they would do that again soon. They are most likely happy for where the items are right now.

Having quickly looked over some abilities to the items, I would say however that although these changes would increase utility, it might make champions overloaded(the face of mountain changes for instance). It's at the very least tripling the utility, part of it being another CC, not only is that another CC to champions with CC heavy kits, but it increases the value for non-support champs, making it a viable choice for them, but it also feasibly can not be done due to item price changes. They can't increase the price because supports don't have the money to buy it then, and they can't increase utility without raising price.

I will say however, that it seems at first glance the unique passives like spoils of war, tribute, and favor are well balanced, and worthwhile changes. Although I don't work for Riot so I cannot say for sure if it is or not, and I also wouldn't be able to tell if it makes them viable for non-support roles(which again, Riot really doesn't want).

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

In regard to your first comment, I actually do not think that supports need more gold. Not much more in any case. I am very tired of seeing Brand (and prior to that, Annie) in the bot lane with no real trade-off. I main support and have started playing Brand when I simply do not trust my team to carry me, and I think that is an unhealthy attitude. So while I am OKAY with Brand or other mages playing as support, I do think that there needs to be a heavy emphasis on keeping their damage down compared to a mid-laner. This was part of the thinking on the FQC change actually. It was something that would be a power-neutral for many supports (any with a heal or shield) and a nerf to damage-heavy supports.

As for Face of the Mountain, that change is already live. The slow that is. The ONLY thing I added, was the potential for it to give full experience to allies and to deal damage to minions when it explodes, both of which are minor QOL changes if you ask me. I do agree with you on needing to keep gold costs down. I think that supports should have VERY specific items geared towards them at a low cost, such that they can afford nice items, but have very restricted means of using them. Thus far, Riot has done a great job with the exception of tailoring base Sightstone.

TakaDama1 votes

Interesting read, though in terms of itemization have you considered, instead of Clairvoyant zones that only affect stealth wards, something that affects all trinkets (and maybe the control ward as well)?

For example, either Lens could have a longer duration, Orb could have extended placement range, and Totem could have extended vision range.

As it is right now, outside of actually buying sightstone and dedicating your income to control wards, you will have the same vision capabilities as any other position.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

As of right now I have only seriously considered Yellow Trinket lasting longer and Sweeping Lens destroying the Zone. Having the Zone affect Control Wards is plausible, in terms of extending sight range, but it would also imply that their zone of denial would extend as well. As for Sweeping Lens, I would likely consider something like "Wards that are swept within this Zone are slowly destroyed", implying that you would not need to autoattack them to kill them (Clairvoyant Zones only prevent NEW wards from being placed and have no effect on enemy wards already placed in that area).

As far as Scrying Orb goes, I highly doubt that I would want to add an effect that requires you to stand in the Zone. What I may consider, however, is granting Scrying Ward temporary immunity to damage when placed inside a C. Zone and the extended sight range. This way a Zone placed by objectives can be Scryed efficiently for a few seconds. (Had not thought of this idea until now).

As it is right now, and as it would be after this proposed update, you are right. Outside of buying this item, all roles would have the same vision capabilities, with the exception being the Warding Jungle item. I have put slight consideration into a Ward item for ADC's to help give them some synergy with their support's Zones. ADC's had the lowest ward rate of all the roles per a Riot chart a year ago.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I think the sightstone line is really cumbersome as it is. You have some decent ideas here, but they basically boil down to very minor changes other than sightstone and ruby sightstone. I think more than that is needed.

When I think about changing the support economy, I wonder why sightstone exists at all. I keep bringing this up to various people, but back when yellow trinket was introduced, it provided so much vision that sightstone wasn't really needed anymore. I have NO IDEA why we didn't stick to that theme. That is how to make vision a truly team oriented objective.

So, knowing that as my opinion, you'll probably understand why your entire post falls kinda flat with me. Sightstone is a wasted slot for supports that could be a much more interesting item, and your changes don't alter that. With trinkets in the game, we don't need sightstone at all, and support can be moved into being a real role instead of a dead position for champs that can survive on starvation-level funds.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

While I agree that I have only made fairly minor changes, I will say that it is VERY hard to suggest new changes on the boards without completely overwhelming people or going overboard. Every change that Riot makes seems to be quite deliberate and takes a good degree of explaining to make it feel worthwhile, aside from minor stat changes. I do completely agree that more is needed, but I cannot progress down this path further until I get a feel for what the community thinks of the idea. Thus far, I have heard a number of people wonder why Sightstone exists at all.

On to that point, I believe that a lot of supports VALUE the vision mini-game and feel that the support should be the master of vision on the team. I agree that Trinkets have made Sightstone a supplementary tool, and as such the importance of Sightstone by comparison has dwindled. (Still a must buy, but it isn't the ONLY source of vision). I am with you on making vision control a team effort, but I am only on board so much as I am with making killing enemies a team effort. What I mean by that is: I am okay with supports enabling kills via friendly enhancements or crowd control, but I am less okay with them having the power to duel other champions. Similarly, I am okay with other team members providing vision control, but I do believe that the support should have a larger scope of power regarding where vision is most important. This places the support in a leadership and shot-calling role, whilst leaving the more in depth combat mechanics to others. This is, IMO, a healthy dynamic.

I by no means am trying to disrespect your opinion. It is a very valid one. If it is of any consolation, I have started playing Brand support extensively because I can actually carry games with him. It is VERY refreshing to be able to actually kill people and to contribute and to end most games with most damage on my team. But as a loyal support main since season 3, I simply do not condone the level of autonomy, combat power, crowd control, and vision that Brand can contribute. I should not be dealing the most damage on the team consistently and I should not be able to 2v1 the opposing bot lane (which I can at nearly any elo below ~G3).

What I am getting at is, I do not know if there is a way to really make all supports equivalent without breaking them. There is a reason that Alistar Jungle and Lulu Top have been nerfed into the ground. The CC and other utility they provide to function as a support is simply too overbearing when functional in a solo lane. To function in a solo lane, you need damage. This is the one thing that supports are supposed to lack, and when they dont, they provide EVERYTHING. Why would you ever pick a Darius or Maokai when you can pick top lane Leona or Naut and provide damage, tankyness, and immeasurable crowd control? I think that this is the #1 reason why supports have limited gold income. It is to force them to play to their strengths (CC, utility) and to have notable weaknesses (lack of damage). If you have plentiful gold in the bot lane as a support, you're just going to cover an intended weakness of supports and force Riot to nerf them.

Feel free to rebuttal my opinions! Like I said, I appreciate your comment and am strongly considering how to get rid of Sightstone whilst keeping supports as the vision master. (Summoner Spells / Trinkets modified by items is one place I am looking into)

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Well, first of all, no offense taken. :) You are a civil man/woman, and I hope I come across that way, also.

I really like the utility that supports bring. To give you my personal context on this, I have been playing Taric a TON lately, and he is easily my favorite support. I love the plethora of shields and healing he gives, and the way that ties into his empowered autos that scale with armor is just really elegant. I want to see supports be able to make a big difference in fights with their utility. I win a lot of games on Taric.

What I wish was different, though, is the way supports scale. I hate having to rush sightstone and put off getting armor. I hate having to choose between item 3401 and item 2303 to try to minimize the amount of inconvenience to my build. I'm not excited about either item. I'm excited about item 3110, but I can't rush that realistically and still be doing my job. That's rotten.

To me, that's the weakness of the class. It's the reason no one picks them. Vision is really interesting to me, but only as a team goal. Much like objective control and map pressure. It's something that a team should excel at because they have synergy.

By contrast, a support's kit should focus on the champion. Every other champ, in every other role, has a kit to support a particular playstyle. By emphasizing vision, I worry that we are homogenizing supports. That's my biggest argument against sightstone. I am not sure Riot is capable of finding another way of doing things, but I wish they could. And I think that trinkets were the answer we needed.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Well spoken through and through. While I think that FOTM is actually an OKAY thing to get first on pretty much every Warden (it synergizes pretty decently with Taric IMO, but I see your point), the additional gold that goes into Sightstone does seem to hinder flavorful item purchases quite a bit. And to that extent, so does your first GP5 item, though it generates gold so it is hard to really point fingers at it.

You post was a good one that, while I don't have a ton to say about it, gives a very clear message of how many supports may be feeling. I may get back with you at a later point if I have substantial things to add. Feel free to respond or make suggestions. Take some time to read through a few other discussions on this post. I would not mind feedback on anything being said on this post.

chipndip11 votes

So fix the role by removing EVEN MORE AP FROM THE MAGES IN THE ROLE?

Are people this stupid? I'm honestly asking now.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Well, for beginners, lets start with a simple question: what does AP do for supports? Easy answer. AP scales heals, shields, utility, and damage. Now, if we add bonus shielding and healing to FQC and get rid of utility scaling with AP, all of a sudden all AP does for supports is give them damage. And guess whose job it isn't to deal damage. It is the support role.

Look bud, I main support. Last night I easily dealt most damage on my team as Brand, whilst providing vision and crowd control. Did I feel like I had agency? Hell yes I did. Did I feel the urge to never play another support, other than Brand? Yupp. And it was all because Brand can play and simply ignore his ADC and do well. That is not the kind of playstyle that is beneficial to the support role.

Yes, I like the increased autonomy, but I should not be so independent as to deal more damage than my midlaner on a consistent basis. Part of that problem is simply having easy access to AP on my GP5 item. This kind of change also keeps the Spellthief line out of midlane, which leaves room for it to be buffed.

Bottom line is, and this goes for me as well: If you want to play a damage mage, play mid or buy Coin and roam. Stop taking advantage of super easy procs on Spellthief because of Brands passive or plants. Almost every other support mage will benefit from this. Lux, Karma, Orianna, Morgana, and Lulu would all benefit from this change.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Alright, so I read two paragraphs in, and it seems people ARE this stupid.

Well, for beginners, lets start with a simple question: what does AP do for supports? Easy answer. AP scales heals, shields, utility, and damage. Now, if we add bonus shielding and healing to FQC and get rid of utility scaling with AP, all of a sudden all AP does for supports is give them damage. And guess whose job it isn't to deal damage. It is the support role.

So why are Brand and Zyra free supports for a month? Why did Riot state that they support the notion of higher damage supports in the game, and that their reworks would retain their abilities to support? Because this backlash against supports that do damage is fucking stupid. Everyone here is neutering the support role while asking "How come no one wants to spam W/E from a bush from 40 minutes with us?". That type of game play isn't fun for everyone, so the fix for support is to remove even more possible viable play styles from the role even more than we already have? People really are this dumb and it's triggering me.

Look bud, I main support. Last night I easily dealt most damage on my team as Brand, whilst providing vision and crowd control. Did I feel like I had agency? Hell yes I did. Did I feel the urge to never play another support, other than Brand? Yupp. And it was all because Brand can play and simply ignore his ADC and do well. That is not the kind of playstyle that is beneficial to the support role.

So you blatantly admit that playing a more proactive role on the team was fun to do, but you double back and say "Nah, let's make it so we don't do that"...because "supports don't get to do damage"? In that case, remove IBG from the game, since tanks don't get to do damage, either. Remove Sunfire Cape's damage to champions while we're at it. Hell, remove the freaking juggernaut class. You shouldn't be tanky AND do damage. That isn't what tanky people do, and we don't allow CHOICE or VARIETY. That isn't fun. The fuck is this?

Yes, I like the increased autonomy, but I should not be so independent as to deal more damage than my midlaner on a consistent basis. Part of that problem is simply having easy access to AP on my GP5 item. This kind of change also keeps the Spellthief line out of midlane, which leaves room for it to be buffed.

So lemme tell you why Brand and Zyra's doing big things on a small budget: Riot wants high damage support options in the game, but they know that the role has no items for them to build. OBVIOUSLY they're still gonna build mid laner items, and to boot, they have no scalings on any slows, no heals, or shields to cut their overall power budget with. So what they did was just design their passives to pump out damage in large aoes at the cost of their initial spell casts' damage. Thus, they're able to get good damage out just by working with a slow build and their base kits, because they're designed to put out respectable damage even when they're building slow since they're GOING to build slow in the support role. If the role had more ap options that weren't just Ardent Censor, you could justify nerfing their base damage and putting more power into later stages, rather than having them ram 700 damage into your face at level 6.

Bottom line is, and this goes for me as well: If you want to play a damage mage, play mid or buy Coin and roam. Stop taking advantage of super easy procs on Spellthief because of Brands passive or plants. Almost every other support mage will benefit from this. Lux, Karma, Orianna, Morgana, and Lulu would all benefit from this change.

No they won't. If Lux was going to benefit from being a shield bot over a damage dealer, she'd already be a decent support right now. Shields and heals are stronger than they've ever been in this game, and Lux is STILL a shit support. Lux has NEVER been a good shield bot.

Same for Lulu. Lulu is a hybrid pick between peel and damage. Lulu's half a champion in her current state, and barely scrapes by by maxing her E, then W. If you're going to be a shield bot, you play Janna. Why pick Lulu?

And note how Morgana's falling off now that shield/heal strength is being emphasized. Morgana's Black Shield is only for blocking cc and magic damage. She's not a shield bot. especially since her E's got a long cd (since it blocks cc), so the itemization in the game doesn't support her play style anymore. Now she's fallen off.

The fuck is Orianna doing in this conversation?

Like, you list a bunch of champions that want NOTHING to do with this notion as "prime examples" of champs that'd benefit from losing even more ap. People really are this stupid.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Okay. :)

Lord Desert1 votes

Dude i think you should safe your post! i did something like this too, and it got deleted and i needed to put in Cr&Co...

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Dudeeeee. Go up to the top of the screen where the message inbox is. There is a notification tab that holds all messages from the moderators. Go into that and look through the list. You can find your deleted post in there. They give you a link to it. Ive had lots of posts deleted and can still find them easily. :)

But yes, thank you. I do generally save my posts for a few days just in case. A mod would have to be kind of a jerk to delete this now though since it has so many comments. :/

Lord Desert1 votes

I notice that but i thought they get deleted without you beeing able to see it again if you waited to long, thats why i always safed my posts too :D If not that nice to hear, but from my experience mods will delete it even if already has some comments! But i hope it doesnt happen to you! the view rates in Cr&Co for open discussions are terrible xD Ill take an indepth look at yours when i came back to my pc!

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

I look forward to any feedback you have to give.

Lord Desert1 votes

First have some questions: You stated that those clairvoyant zones give vision in Oculus Gem description but didnt mentioned it later. Just a typo or do the zones provide vision themselfs, like wards? and if yes do they provide vision in bushes even if only the center is not in the bush? that makes those zones untargetable wards, only clearable by lens or sweeper. Next up: what happens if you and your enemy zone the same area, can nobody place wards there? can you place a zone ontop of an enemy zone? How big is the cast range and the zone range aprox. ? do Reds(controlwards) get buffed in visionrange too? can enemy farsight wards or reds be placed in your own zone? since you only said something about stealth wards, not the other ones. does the zone have a cooldown before you can place the next? You also missed a rather big topic: Reds currently block an inventory slot! my solution would be an extra trinket for reds like thisitem 3362 or to somehow incooperate it into the sightstone, but with your changes that would make it to overloaded. Can you see the zones in the fog of war or do you need to get in visionrange of them first? like plants etc.

Ill write an indepth analysis after i know those, but it will likely be in about 20 hours earliest i have quiet alot to do tomorrow!

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

First have some questions: You stated that those clairvoyant zones give vision in Oculus Gem description but didnt mentioned it later. Just a typo or do the zones provide vision themselfs, like wards?

Might have been something added after the initial post. Clairvoyant Zones would reveal the area inside their circle and not beyond their indicated radius. Smaller vision range than wards.

and if yes do they provide vision in bushes even if only the center is not in the bush? that makes those zones untargetable wards, only clearable by lens or sweeper.

C. Zones would provide vision ONLY inside their radius. If only part of the circle covers a bush, only that section of the bush would be revealed. Perhaps some kind of coding could be implemented to reveal all of a bush if ~90% of that bush is within the circle, just for clarity.

Next up: what happens if you and your enemy zone the same area, can nobody place wards there? can you place a zone ontop of an enemy zone?

Both teams may have overlapping zones. In this case, neither team may place NEW vision wards, but all existing vision wards within the overlapped circles would have their duration extended.

How big is the cast range and the zone range aprox. ?

Standard trinket cast range, 1.5 second channel perhaps, about the size of a Graves smokescreen. Maybe smaller.

do Reds(controlwards) get buffed in visionrange too? can enemy farsight wards or reds be placed in your own zone? since you only said something about stealth wards, not the other ones.

Currently, all other wards function as normal and may be placed in the zones. Extended range on control wards and temporary invulnerability on farsight wards under consideration. Enemy wards would be unaffected.

does the zone have a cooldown before you can place the next?

Probably not if I gave it a channel cast. Otherwise, maybe a short lock out to prevent accidental double clicks.

You also missed a rather big topic: Reds currently block an inventory slot! my solution would be an extra trinket for reds like this or to somehow incooperate it into the sightstone, but with your changes that would make it to overloaded.

Havent gotten that far yet. Might make a recharging red ward sightstone item for supports. Would need a lot of brainstorming.

Can you see the zones in the fog of war or do you need to get in visionrange of them first? like plants etc.

Cannot be seen through the fog of war. Exception: if an enemy attempts to place a ward into an unseen circle, the C. Zone will flash and reveal itself for a few seconds. Will not reveal anything inside, just its radius and remaining time.

Ill write an indepth analysis after i know those, but it will likely be in about 20 hours earliest i have quiet alot to do tomorrow!

Alrighty.

Lord Desert1 votes

I see your intentions, but to be honest with you i doubt they will do anything :/

Before i go into your sugestions, lets think about a normal game:

Adc/mids will take farsight for the safety and the potential spotting. Assasins may take Sweeper if they dont build duskblade. Sup and jungle, both having atleast your ocolus gem, will also pick sweeper. Top may stay with yellow trinket for tp wards and splitpush safety. But every other trinket could be picked too.

Your changes basicly only change the wards to small, untargetable, only with lens/sweeper clearable(not Reds etc.), visable "wards". That slowly recharge.

The zones, for short CZones, will not be used, because there are no normal wards left! Since sightstone doesnt have "wards anymore. Farsight wards will not be placed there since they are likely placed in contested zones, and them only beeing able to be cleared with sweeper/lens forces atleast 2 guys into sweeper/lens! So as awesome as it sounds, it will not work. Plus they already provide vision, so why would i waste some of my already limited vision just to increase the visionradius of a zone? (dont misunderstand, you just "technicly" increased the visionrange, i know how your zone works)

item 3302 etc.: If you dont make changes to something, dont write a huge text! A small mention is enough :D your right % execute is bad vs supers, no exp penality vs shared minions could throw of the balance between the 3 items, since those may get a level faster.

item 3301 etc.: Sup items are teamoriented, with its 3tier giving an activ usefull for the team. Your idea makes it completely selfish, with no teamuse. Before you say tower helps team etc.: you can help your team by annihalting the enemy team too... giving extra gold on only 1 gold income item wrecks the balance between them. And you deleted 3 items casualy. Another point is that this item gives way to much ms! pointrunner (~60ms) + 40OoC ms is 100 ms without anything else! Thats way to much for 1 item.

item 3303 etc.: shields are balanced with Ap in mind and not just a % increase by items. Ap increases them by a flat amount. So a 300 shield with 50% shield power is 450, but a 200 is only 300. if we give them flat 100 extra we have 300 and 400! Way better balanced! We would need to nerf this into the ground, make everyone with shield need to buy only shieldpower items... and 20% on 1 low cost guranteed 1 buy item is a bit strong for guy with good shields and heals(karma janna soraka nami etc.) Them beeing more popular increases more overall burst, since you cant heal burst that well or making frontliners impossible to kill.... So no, to much shield/heal power!

2nd the "dmg sups". they will simply skipp this and go straight for dmg only! but giving them alternatives that support the SUPPORT playstyle with atleast some Ap will get more of those "dmg only" sups playing as real SUPS but with a bit more dmg then the average sup. Rule of thump: Sup with dmg = ok, Dmg only "Sup" aka. full midlaner = not ok.

Im not going ham on the extra stats etc. since they can always be altered, but it trinket reduction time sounds like a nice idea! I already had something excatly like that planned for a post of mine. And a tipp for you, a TL;DR works wonders to point out the important stuff and to sum it up!

TL;DR

  • Sightstone change will not change anything, potentionally making vision even a bit weaker(very small vision radius)
  • CZone is a nice idea, but the general game doesnt support it :/

This may sound more harsh then intended to, because of short and direct sentences, it was not meant harmful in any way!

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

Not harmful in the least, you made a lot of good points and I am 100% fine with you making an argument. I appreciate your reply and after a number of replies from others I have decided to give it a break for awhile and see where my brain takes me. Gonna look into ways of perhaps getting rid of Sightstone next.

Lord Desert1 votes

Im not sure if you can fully remove it, since this basicly provides a way to give more vision, whitout giving everybody more vision, and is "technicly" pretty cheap/easy to obtain for sups, removing/making a better sytem is not an easy task :/ :D But hey my job and hobby is to finetune stuff, so i normaly always find something to improve xD Dont take my suggestions as a "your idea failed/is not good"!!! Im only saying that there may be some small flaws that could be adressed :P

I personaly also trying to get vision a bit better balanced :D If you want you can check it out: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/62oIYA5y-summonerslab-part-5-support-role-improvement1 maybe you get some insperation :D

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