Why Does Ahri Have True Damage?

AHarmlessTaco·May 22, 2017·10 votes·2,728 views

Just thinking about it, Ahri is a very mobile assassin, being able to kite many tanks quite easily. What part of her screams 'need an extra tool to deal with tanks'?

I mean, just saying, I think it feels tacked on.

EDIT: Im not saying shes OP.... I just dont understand why it doesnt do bonus magic damage is all. Unlike Velkoz, whos gimick is true damage, Ahri doesnt really have any reason for it given that she is an assassin... she shouldnt have a tool that works against tanks and against people who build MR vs her.

I just dont know if this has any sort of actual design sense to it.

67 Comments

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20176 votes

She has been one of the most balanced champions in a game for awhile right now more or the stronger side due to item changes sometimes on the weaker side she is one of the most balanced champs in the game I propose we stop ignoring Darius Illaoi Fizz Fiora and Pantheon as they are actually op and need nerfs

Skyphic May 22, 20174 votes

illaoi is op but ahri isnt? t-that just blows my fucking mind.

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20173 votes

She is a bad champion but her laning phase is disgusting winrate doesn't mean they are not op look at Azir before all those nerfs

Skyphic May 22, 20173 votes

illaoi is not op lol.

ahri however is very strong and has an overloaded kit.

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20174 votes

Wait your joking right?

Elkington VIMay 22, 20172 votes

How is Pantheon OP?

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20172 votes

His Q doesn't draw minion agro, Has a stronger Tf ult that also applys a slow, Can negate tower damage with ease even up to two turret shots in a row, he has crit chance when your below 15% hp and I feel that's just unnecessary, He has an incredibly high winrate top, and all that being said just behind talon he carries the second most amount of first bloods. Oh yeah one more thing he may fall off but for the meantime be builds lethality so he is gonna hurt ;)

Elkington VIMay 22, 20173 votes

Pantheon doesn't seem that bad to me. Yeah his early is strong, other champions also have good early games, while outscaling him. Outside of the laning phase he's not that big of a deal. Ahri is a much more versatile and safe champion in comparison. Not saying either are OP, but there's really no comparison between the two champions. She just has a much better design, in more ways than one.

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20172 votes

Yes others outscale him but there is such a thing called to much power during the laning phase that's Pantheons case

Elkington VIMay 22, 20173 votes

If you say so. Personally, I don't find him that big of a deal. I just rush armor, play safe, and outscale him.

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20172 votes

Emphasis on he builds lethality also he has a very strong roaming ult and with his kit he can tower dive with ease

ShirvallahMay 22, 20179 votes

{quoted}

She has been one of the most balanced champions in a game for awhile

I'm one of the few people on these forums that would agree with this statement, sadly.

AHarmlessTacoMay 22, 20171 votes

Im not saying she isnt balanced, just that it seems to be against Riots philosophy that an assassin with mobility should have an anti tank tool. Rengar, Kha, Leblanc, Katarina, Zed, Talon..... no one else has anti tank tools built in. Why does Ahri?

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20171 votes

Notice every one of those ultimate's does a ton of damage with the exception of Leblanc as it just adds more but not a ton

AHarmlessTacoMay 22, 20171 votes

I wasnt aware the Kha's ult did damage. Lol. But on a serious note, what does that have to do with anti tank tools?

KoKobotoMay 22, 20171 votes

Ahri is not a balanced champion. You go to any league stat website and she has 54% winrate at high elos along with a very high play rate. Also no one is ignoring Fizz as he recently got nerfed. Pantheon, Illaoi and Darius have clear points of weakness. Fiora may be a bit on the OP side.

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20171 votes

like I said she is very strong right now doesn't mean she deserves nerfs its always been item changes bringing her in and out of the meta and tank Fizz got nerfed his ap ratio on his e however got buffed just what we needed is Fizz to do higher damage. The champions you pointed out with "Clear weaknesses" only fit Illaoi in there the rest all fit with being just op as Fiora in my book. We all have our own opinions so I hope you don't get salty at this statement.

Warlord ScrapMay 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ahri is not a balanced champion. You go to any league stat website and she has 54% winrate at high elos along with a very high play rate. Also no one is ignoring Fizz as he recently got nerfed. Pantheon, Illaoi and Darius have clear points of weakness. Fiora may be a bit on the OP side.

I dont think fioras so much op as much as recent ar/mr changes in midseason looked kindly on her and vayne.

KoKobotoMay 22, 20171 votes

Yeah I don't think she is that OP either. It's just that she does well early and just continues to do well until late that makes her feel like she should be OP. There is no point in the game where she is weak. It only gets better as time progresses.

Warlord ScrapMay 22, 20171 votes

yea but her team fighting is lack luster. Shes also prone to cc and focusing. balance isnt always as simple as op or not op.

KoKobotoMay 22, 20171 votes

yeah exactly that's why i don't think she's op

DoktorKaiserMay 22, 20171 votes

AHahahahahh I didnt see Pantheon solo carrying games at LCS and MSI. Fuck off fanboys, your fap girl is getting nerfed next patch !!!

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20171 votes

I dont play Ahri? Also if you fucking think that just because a champion wasnt played at Lcs and Msi your high, pro-play and solo q are totally different for example Ryze being horrible in solo q with a 36% winrate yet is constantly picked up in pro-play.

DoktorKaiserMay 22, 20171 votes

When a champion is broken in both solo queue (especially high elo) and pro play that is when there is an alert at RITO HQ and they immediately start with nerfs. Anyway, 10 bans will speak for themselves...

Big LincolnMay 22, 20171 votes

calls illaoi op when he plays renekton

hahahaha

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20171 votes

If you think Renektons op then meh I can point to his winrate his laning phase is strong but not Panth or Illaoi strong and yes I play Renekton cause im an asshole ;)

Big LincolnMay 22, 20171 votes

i can point to illaoi's winrate too

and yes, his laning is better, because Illaoi shouldn't really be killing you until level 6 and unlike her, renekton's spells can't be interrupted or blocked by minions

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20171 votes

There is something such as to much power during the laning phase get over yourself and move from this post

Big LincolnMay 22, 20171 votes

to much power during the laning phase

you mean like renekton

LeagueOfJhinMay 22, 20171 votes

Move on with your life

Titanium70May 22, 20173 votes

Sure at first look true-DMG seems always strong and you can ask "why xyz has it?".

But it's important ot realize that True-DMG has downsides as well!

In Ahris case: If you could choose between, TrueDMG on return or 50%additionalDMG on return - which one would you prefer? First - hurts everyone alike, Second - is weaker against Tanks.. but even STRONGER against squishys!

This way - having True-DMG is actually worse than having more Magic dmg (always granted equal total power budgets) as long as you fight squishys!

Ture DMG is just another Balance Tool - that's actually better for squishy opponents.

AHarmlessTacoMay 22, 20171 votes

So in this regard, do you think that it is appropriate to give her this kind of consistency at the expense of giving her more aligned assassin attributes? Honest question. Because part of me really identifies her as the premier kiting mage, to which I might be okay with the true damage. But I think people prefer being an assassin so it raises the question of why she should give up squishy killing power for said consistency.

Titanium70May 22, 20171 votes

Since I never like the Assassin-Tag on her, I guess the answer is clear. :) I like her playstyle as an evasive Kite-Mage and therfore I consider her current Kit near perfect for this idenity.

Note - I say this as someone who has to deal with Ahri - not as someone who plays her. I guess most players prefer to use her for picks - aka as assassin - and AP-Itemization allows this - sadly. And what's maybe even more important from a balance point: What do you get if a 'Kite-Mage' is fed - an Assassins you can never catch - that might be part of the current problems as well. ^^'

AHarmlessTacoMay 22, 20171 votes

When I think of Assassin you can never catch, I definitely think of Ahri and Fizz. Of the two, I think Ahri is MUCH healthier gameplay wise. If anything, I would like to, I guess, see the kiteyness embraced without so much of her ability to roam. So perhaps Riot looking at her waveclear would be a good step. Hm, well, overall I guess things make sense.

Titanium70May 22, 20171 votes

Yes, Waveclear might be a good idea.

However - Riot has alittle obsession throwing waveclear on everyone who never asked for... Swain Leblanc Ryze ... sigh

Very Hard EngageMay 22, 20171 votes

let me tell you more broken things in league right now.

pantheon Q doesn't draw minion aggro

nocturne ultimate, grossly overpowered, leaving him with a lackluster basic kit.

swains Q ratio (120%)

katarina shunpo / dagger combo has a hidden bonus range

cassio locks out summoner spells

anivia and trundle can stop ALLIES backs.

and here you would like to complain about something as minor as true damage? when the ability is one of the weakest in the game.

AHarmlessTacoMay 22, 20174 votes

I mean it is still a valid question. Ahri is a topic of discussion right now. Go make threads about the other champs and get off mine plz?

Very Hard EngageMay 22, 20175 votes

no, because ahri is fine, her win rate is a result of her flexibility, not her power. its a meta shift which favors her.

you're trying to make something out of nothing because you got caught by charm and then died to her second rotation.

while you didn't even attempt to form a resemblance of a counterbuild, no mr or health.

meanwhile ill build roa or banshees and watch as she cries herself to sleep.

or ill pick one of her dozen counterpicks Vladimir Swain Syndra Gragas Annie Fizz Diana Yasuo

NoctrianMay 22, 20171 votes

The point of the Q true damage is that she is always at least a threat, she is as squishy as most ADC's out there so why should she not be as threatening to tanks?

AHarmlessTacoMay 22, 20171 votes

She is a mobile assassin, shouldnt she not be threatening to tanks? Isnt that the whole point of having a front line to block her? I dont see Leblanc, Katarina, Zed, or Talon having tools to deal with tanks, nor should they if you ask me. I dont understand why Ahri is different.

Champion SkinMay 22, 20171 votes

Because it is better then it dealing bonus damage which would probably make it crush squishy champions (especially with magic pen which almost makes it deal true damage against anyone who doesn't build MR) while doing almost nothing to tanks

AHarmlessTacoMay 22, 20171 votes

Isnt that what assassins are supposed to do? Like by nature?

Champion SkinMay 22, 20171 votes

Assassins are supposed to kill squishy champions yes However the people who play squishy champions for some reason don't like getting killed with nothing they can do about it So Riot mostly try to give assassins ways they can mess up and the opponent can avoid their damage

But in return to not make assassins useless if they can't 100-0 squishy champions they also often have some utility or fall back Ahri is kind of special though as she is kind of a mix of assassin and mage

Like Ahri has some fall back with her CC in charm and the fact that she can use her range to deal damage without putting herself in much danger (though of course her Q will mostly likely mostly hit the enemy front line but with it dealing true damage that's fine) Which is basically what most mages does... hang back and try and set up a pick with their CC or deal some damage from a safe distance

AHarmlessTacoMay 22, 20172 votes

I agree that Ahri seems like a special case, myself being torn between assassin and the premier kiting mage tied with Zyra. I do wonder if she is too much of a generalist though. If she had no alternative form of mobility aside from Q, Id completely agree that poking with Q while waiting for a good Charm should have some fall back to it vs tanks, thus making true damage reasonable. However, given ahris ult, it really seems to serve too well rounded of a purpose for ahri to heavily punish body blocking tanks, while also having the ability to out maneuver them to dive anyways. The consensus is that Ahri is a bit of a generalist and I think the true damage is a big part of that. I personally think she is fairly balanced, but I also think that her kit could use a touch up, mostly the W. Hm

Sir FuzziMay 22, 20171 votes

Almost all of Ahri's damage is multi-hit. The true damage scales low and reaches a modest base and is on the return hit of her Q, much like the bulk of Graves' damage.

Should it be changed, it cannot just be two hits; she'll be hitting lower than virtually every other champion to say nothing of Adaptive Helm completely gutting every skill except her charm then. If they increased the damage, however, virtually any change to her scaling would run the possibility of making her more potent than the original true damage values, with high mpen or low mr opponents. If that happens, then any problems with her damage now will be exacerbated then (thus upsetting her current balance).

It's low impact true damage that requires her to ramp AP that comes on a second hit of a skillshot. In cases, it might not even factor in to the damage she does.

If you want to complain about true damage, maybe something like Fiora is better, where she has multiple ways to access it and it scales to her AD and is max health rather than current. Ahri's is flat and very dodgeable. You have to disengage Fiora because she can hit the vital with her mobility, which puts it on low CD, and parry your counterattack. (of course, that's many more steps than most League players seem capable of processing...) For Ahri, you just have to dodge the second hit of her Q.

AHarmlessTacoMay 22, 20171 votes

I wasnt even complaining. I was asking. :P

Sir FuzziMay 22, 20172 votes

There's your answer. She has true damage because it's the only individual instance of damage you actually care about in her entire kit, and it still grosses pretty low.

Dianna LeveretMay 23, 20171 votes

Ahri is not a balanced champion. Her skillshots are very fast projectiles and extremely hard to avoid. Her Ultimate is on a wayyyyy too low CD than it should be, for the utility and damage it provides. She has true damage and also a thresh-like CC, which pulls you towards her/her team.. I never look at win rates, but I never seen Ahri's win rate drop below 52% in the past 2 years.. maybe i am mistaken on that point, but every time i see her she has around 53-54% win rate and a very active playerbase with high pick rate. She is wayy to safe for an assassin mage, too little mana costs, fast CD's.. She is overloaded and needs some tuning !

wildfox99Jun 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dianna Leveret,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ucRBmgZO,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-05-23T22:36:28.296+0000)

Ahri is not a balanced champion. Her skillshots are very fast projectiles and extremely hard to avoid.

they have the same speed as other skillshoots,and at least she needs them for killing you,many assassin can just oneshoot you with point click abilities

Her Ultimate is on a wayyyyy too low CD than it should be

110 sec when you unlock it,about the same CD as other ultimates

for the utility and damage it provides. She has true damage and also a thresh-like CC, which pulls you towards her/her team.. I never look at win rates, but I never seen Ahri's win rate drop below 52% in the past 2 years.. maybe i am mistaken on that point, but every time i see her she has around 53-54% win rate and a very active playerbase with high pick rate.

since the W / R nerfs she hit the 50% wr in the best cases

She is wayy to safe for an assassin mage

i agree on that,but i would remind that most ahri mains wanted her to lose some of her mobility for having some more snowball potential,but riot doesn't care

too little mana costs, fast CD's..

Q and E cost 85 mana with a really low base mana pool,before lvl 6 using her full rotation (E Q W) means running OOM and being forced to back

She is overloaded and needs some tuning !

he needed a true mini rework not that joke that rick did (he didn't change anything),her kit is getting too old,she's safe but it's really hard carrying as ahri