@Riot: Since Wriggles is so bad that I won't upgrade to it until stacked, can Madreds get a counter?

Jesus is Savior·May 8, 2014·52 votes·1,567 views

Madred's should have had a stack counter when Feral Flare was released. It didn't.

Now Feral Flare and Wriggles are almost nerfed out of viablility. What does this mean?

This means I'm going to hold on to my Madred's Razor (which is still decent) as long as possible, and buy other combat items before I upgrade to Wriggles (eg: Triforce, Bork).

So now Madred's not having a stack counter is a problem.

Can you guys add this small QoL change that should have been made on Feral's release?

(Optional: give machete a counter too - but that might confuse people, so don't do that; just start with Madreds)

EDIT: link to GD discussion, which is more active: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4504707

21 Comments

ImmaKillYou1Jun 24, 20143 votes

So regardless of whether or not it's necessary, is there a reason it SHOULDN'T be there? I can't think of any.

ArchainisMay 9, 20142 votes

Wriggles hasn't been that bad in my experience. It's often the power spike I need to solo dragon. A madred's counter would be nice though.

KynamiMay 9, 20141 votes

Bumped & upvoted.

Jesus is SaviorMay 9, 20141 votes

TimmyWimmyWooWooMay 9, 20141 votes

I use new madreds on jungle shen

Large LeaderMay 9, 20141 votes

Saw the topic on GD and decided to show up here.

Bump and upvoted, for you.

TrulyBlandMay 10, 20141 votes

As I wrote in the other thread: I would give a counter to machete as well.

Con:

Confusing, because the stacks would vanish when you build a spirit stone.

Pro:

Consistency. The moment you start getting stacks you see the counter.
Enables you to make the conscious decision of goign for a spirit item instead, in case you're not farming well enough for FF to be worth it.

ShadowNinetailsMay 10, 20141 votes

I'd like it, but honestly I can keep track somewhat of my stacks in my head long enough until getting Wrig's is more for the ward than for the combat stats. Plus if it's 15-16 mins and you haven't been counterjungled too hard, you're probably around 20-25 stacks so it would be a good idea to find the rest of that money soon.

Angry MonsterMay 10, 20141 votes

I think there is an issue with the OP play pattern. The lack of additional vision you could be providing your team but making the lantern.

Jesus is SaviorMay 10, 20142 votes

I'm sure one less ward on the map for a few minutes isn't going to hurt my team as much as feeding would. And if any fights happened in my jungle, and I couldn't escape, I would die if I rushed Wriggles. I have, however, started building Wriggles after sheen (Udyr) or berserker greaves plus possibly vamp scepter (Yi), since I need like 20 stacks to solo baron now, even at a higher level with more items. The only reason I can do this is because someone told me about the "buy wriggles -> check stacks -> refund" trick. If Madred's had a counter, I wouldn't even need to do that.

Angry MonsterMay 11, 20142 votes

Why do people think soloing baron has to be a thing? Damn badies.

Learn the value of vision

Jesus is SaviorMay 11, 20142 votes

If my team is 4v5 pushing bot, and not getting aced by the enemy team... Do I sneak baron? Yes, yes I do.

If the enemy team is aced and 2 inhibitors are bare, and I can solo baron... I tell my team to take inhibitors, and kill baron myself.

Oh, and FYI, I start machete, vision ward, and 2 pots. And warding totem (which I sell later). Its k tho, call me a "baddy" for "not knowing the value of vision". rofl

Angry MonsterMay 11, 20142 votes

People that have to solo baron to prove their worth are bad.

And if you know the value of warding then why are you against the free ward to help protect the lanes or your own jungle. Buying one pink does not make u good.

Jesus is SaviorMay 11, 20142 votes

"prove their worth". Yeah uh... That's not why I do it. I do it for 3 reasons: 1) I can't force my team to group, and I don't want to leave a free baron up for the enemy to take if my team refuses to take it; 2) I also can't stop my team from running through various wards on their way to baron, and my oracle lens can only clear so much in one scan... Bonus points: I scan and the enemy team didn't even have one ward at baron at all, why would I want my entire team to go MIA and make it obvious what we're doing when I can have them distract the enemy instead?; 3) Everyone except me (both friendly and enemy) is dead, and the lanes aren't pushed enough to take a turret..... take baron. I was actually really happy when I found out Feral Flare Udyr can solo baron (because spirit line tank Udyr can't - unless he sits there for an entire 5 minutes), because that was one of my favorite things about Yi: in solo queue, he doesn't have to rely on his team to take baron and stop the enemy from getting it later, which actually helps carry low ELO. Objectives win games. It has absolutely nothing to do with "proving my worth".....

"then why are you against the free ward" - oh boo hoo, an extra 5 minutes without a free ward so I can have stronger duelling power and actually get kills when I gank or am counter-jungled. It's k, you go ahead and take Wriggles then. Have fun not ganking (or dying in ganks) and running away like a pansy whenever someone pops into your jungle (which will also delay you even more). Like, really, what good is the ward if all it's doing is telling me "there's an enemy, RUN AWAY!" when I could buy something else and kill them? I'll still buy the Wriggles when I'm at 27+ stacks. I guess by your logic, anyone who gets a spirit item is "a noob who doesn't value vision", right?

Go ahead and post again if you want. I'm not gonna respond to any more bait, troll.

ShadowNinetailsMay 18, 20141 votes

Like, really, what good is the ward if all it's doing is telling me "there's an enemy, RUN AWAY!" when I could buy something else and kill them?

Funny thing about wards, you're not the only person that can see with them. Funnier thing about jungle fights, the jungler isn't the only one allowed. Any time I'm in lane and I see my jungler being invaded, I break off whatever I'm doing to help them. More wards=more opportunities to see those fights coming/more time to move into position to assist.

It's a 900g investment. Take the added combat stats from the item 1036 and item 1042 out and you're looking at 140g. That's enough to get you....4 potions? Oooooor that ward could help an ally come to your defense in time to swing the fight. As Riot themselves said when they nerfed item 3117 : "There's no combat stat in the game stronger than having an extra person in the fight."

Funny how most people's perception valued a complete item 3154 before item 3160 existed compared to now.

Jesus is SaviorMay 18, 20142 votes

Funny how most people's perception valued a complete before existed compared to now.

Before item 3160 existed, Wriggles did 100 bonus magic damage to monsters. Not 75. It also gave 40% increased gold from monsters, not 30% (which is a 25% increase - which in a 40+ minute game, can equate to 250-500+ extra gold). Old Wriggles still had 25% attack speed, too (feral-era wriggles gives 30%), and while lacking AD, it gave 20 armor, which helped you survive camps, tower shots, and ganks, on characters that would likely be otherwise building glass cannon. Oh, and it costed 1650, not 1800.

I would actually PREFER old Wriggles to new Wriggles, if new Wriggles didn't transform into Feral Flare. On their own, without bringing Feral Flare into the picture... Old preseason Wriggles was actually more useful than new Wriggles. It was cheaper (allowing you to buy it sooner). It gave you more bonus gold (which, combined with being cheaper, and being able to grab it earlier, was huge). And its stats would actually help you farm faster than new Wriggles (100 magic damage, armor for survivability, and the ability to pick it up sooner and kill dragon/other camps with it sooner).

All that being said, I can pick up stronger items with stronger combat stats with that gold, instead of Wriggles. The ward is not going to help me as much as you say it will. It's actually a gamble, and I'm not willing to take it. If my teammate decides NOT to help me, then I'm way behind. Climbing ranked is about consistency. Your strategies have to work every time. If they are a gamble, and rely on your teammates... It won't be worth it every time your teammate fails you. It's high risk, low reward. I'd rather build a sheen and win a duel, or chase the enemy away myself.

It's the same reason I don't solo dragon at level 5 anymore unless support wards the bottom river bush (and I ward the mid river bush). Could I get an early dragon and get my team ahead? Yup. If its warded by the enemy, am I screwed because I can't see? Yup. Will I consistently climb ranked if I take the stupid risk that is high risk and doesn't always work? Nope. (and if you say "buy Wriggles and ward both bushes!" - no, I won't have enough gold at that point in the game... And Wriggles isn't enough to solo at that point even if I DO get a lucky kill and have the gold. I need the 700g spirit stone for the sustain. Level 5 dragon requires madreds and spirit stone.)

ShadowNinetailsMay 19, 20141 votes

I guess there's a limit to how many replies can be nested within each other, so I guess I gotta do it like this.

What you're saying is that it's a gamble that makes it impossible to climb ranks by relying on teamwork in a team game. While this may hold true in certain divisions, after Bronze II, you stop seeing as many people that can win 9v1. Not to mention the plethora of players that almost always rely on their team's help like LemonNation, Xpecial, Edward, BloodWater, Aphromoo, YellOwStaR.

If you're thinking to yourself "those are all support players", that's my point. Leona is unquestionably one of the most powerful champions in the game, but you find her by herself, there's almost no item build where she has a reliable chance of winning. Braum was specifically designed to be much less effective solo. If you need a jungler that fits this mold, (spoiler alert) Nautilus and Zac still exist.

20% of the people on the map are probably going to be useless in a duel (even fighting against their equally stat-starved counterpart) even after a rework that gets them a higher consistent gold flow than any other position. It used to be another 20% of the people on the map were generally in this club, but because of item 3160 , quite a few junglers are becoming carries and carries are becoming junglers (Jungle Jax and Fiora are making a resurgence and jungle Twitch is close to being as powerful as the lane version).

Still, none of them are going to be able to do anything without the other 4 players on their side, so strategies that act against this truth are...not very reliable.