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Can we finally phase crit's RNGesus out of the game?

KSHarrison··85 votes·41,247 views

#tl;dr w/ summary of this thread's discussion + ideas further below

#Updates

kind of Red Response - links won't work for some reason. Use Ctrl + F to search for "Phreak".

Dignitas ImaQTPie Responds!

He basically attacks 2/3 of the proposed methods in the OP. Would love to hear discussion on this!

Get your paper and pencil out and be ready to learn. Morello is here! :D

Re: Other solutions - Fine by me! I presented my own to start discussion, but the purpose of this thread is to find a sensible replacement to crit RNG! Check the bottom of this post for a summary of two other methods that offer smoother transitions than my own.

RE: Carry DPS without crit - The proposed changes will deal similar damage to live, please read my reply below to Ilya for detailed explanation or PhoenixSlayer for summary. Thanks!

#End Updates

                 Why Critical Hits Aren't Necessary in LoL


Date: June 2014

Since Riot is preparing another large item overhaul, I think it's an appropriate time to talk about Critical Hits, the last major RNG element in the game. Critical Hits are an iconic element of traditional RPGs, but you know what else traditional RPGs have? Dodge, random battles, random loot—all things that aren't present in LoL. Why? It's because LoL isn't an RPG. It's a MoBA, and as such there is no requirement for it to be beholden to archaic RPG elements. The new motto is interactive gameplay. Randomly winning or losing trades/duels due to critical hits is the opposite of that.

On top of this, crit occupies a weird spot where almost no one can use it but autoattack champions, limiting a crit item's appeal to a relatively small range of champions. And for the autoattackers, items like Atma's Impaler and Executioner's Calling end up being redundant and difficult to balance because PD/SS/IE already provide the most desirable sources of crit in a well-balanced 6-item build. Like the old dodge, crit simply doesn't have a lot of design space to maneuver in; we've tried for years to go beyond just PD/SS/IE and failed.

Crit is also difficult to quantify because it's inconsistent. Even Trinity Force's 10% Crit doesn't feel noticeable. While the crit is most definitely doing work, people really buy it for other reasons. It's hard for players to interpret an inconsistent stat and readily establish expectations for its performance. Crit isn't like AD or AS, which are intuitive and flexible enough to mix and match with interesting items. Crit is a cumbersome stat with nebulous and problematic (see Xypherous's quote coming up) gameplay.

For perspective from a respectable authority on the ins and outs of League gameplay, here are CLG Doublelift's tweets on RNG, which in part corroborate what I have felt for a long time:

tweet1 tweet2 tweet3 tweet4

http://i.imgur.com/d23955u.jpg?1 CLG Doublelift

I really hope IE changes never make it live. I don't want to see S4WC million dollar bot lane trades decided on who gets the first IE crit.

I can't believe there's an argument for the potential for IE vs IE 2v2 all-ins where the player who crits 1 more time is bound to win... lol

I hate RNG and it's even worse when it's an attractive option for early game where snowballing lane is most important

There's nothing wrong with BT vs BoRK build paths right now, it's skill-based and calculated gameplay with no room for luck

Let's examine Xypherous's recent quote on pRNG (pseudo RNG) referencing 10% crit chance:

http://i.imgur.com/69Z01Un.jpg?1 Xypherous - aka Riot's Master of Items

The problem with critical strike is that at low values it is inconsistent and unpredictable because there's no way to plan around it - what you want is increased predictability of the system - and PRNG needs a large base and a better time frame to do that kind of work.

Basically: The pRNG system in place doesn't cope well with low crit chances.

Now, 8 out of the 12 crit items offer lower than 20% crit chance, and arguably the cut off could go as high as PD. Thus, addressing crit is relevant for the health of at least 8 of our items and any future items like them, and it affects all areas of the game, not just bot lane (think: runes, bruiser Trinity Force builds, or any builds with Zeal derivatives, etc.)

So, we have two options: We can phase out crit entirely, or we can at least change the items with low crit chance. I'll try for the former, because as already covered above at length, RNG is shit from a competitive perspective, and it's invisible gameplay to casual players.

##    The Items   item 3031 item 3046 item 3087 item 3078 item 3142 item 3005 item 3123 item 3131

  • Infinity Edge
  • ** Phantom Dancer**
  • ** Statikk Shiv**
  • Trinity Force
  • Youmuu's Ghostblade
  • Atma's Impaler
  • Executioner's Calling
  • Sword of the Divine

There are 4 major items here with serious gameplay ramifications: IE, PD/Shiv, and Trinity Force. The changes will seem weird at first, but ultimately they are passive statistical bonuses just like crit and with time players will get used to them. Other solutions exist that are valid! Mine are just an out of the ordinary suggestion to provoke creative discussion.

The rest of the items are used too seldom to matter. If you don't like my ideas for these disposable items, that's ok because you could potentially make any change you want to them without affecting the state of the game. This is an opportunity to remove toxic elements in these minor items that will make them better design investments in the future.

Note: Since writing this, Ghostblade has become more popular on some champions. While the item itself may arguably no longer be relegated to "minor" status, it still falls into the problematic regime of low crit chance mentioned by Xypherous above, so alternative options to its crit stat are worth exploring.

Here are my ideas:

##                             Major Items

###item 3031 Infinity Edge item 3031

  • 25% crit chance / 50% bonus Crit Damage

  • Unique Passive: Unlimited Power - Increases Auto Attack damage by 35%

Currently, the critical hit portion of IE increases autoattack DPS by an average of 37.5%. This means the damage is virtually unchanged.

The DPS difference in building PD + IE is less than 1%.

###item 3046 Phantom Dancer item 3046

  • 30% crit chance

  • Unique Passive: Dual Wield - Every 3 attacks, a fourth strike is delivered. Counter may or may not reset after 4 seconds of inactivity.

This passive is a 33% increase in damage; live bonus from PD's crit is 30%. It's not perfect, but it's workable.

Double PD / PD + Shiv builds require minor changes discussed in my reply to Critkeeper (link at bottom).

###item 3087 Statikk Shiv item 3087

  • 20% crit chance

  • Unique Passive: Dual Wield - Every 3 attacks, a fourth strike is delivered at 60% AD. Counter may or may not reset after 4 seconds of inactivity.

This passive is exactly equal to Shiv's current crit dps bonus.

Again there are minor options needed for stacking PD/Shiv builds (see link at bottom). This doesn't pose an issue; solutions come out very close to live values.

###item 3078 Trinity Force item 3078

  • 10% crit chance

  • Buff Spellsword damage

OR

  • Increase AD/AS to 40/40%

If you require symmetry, you could also increase the AP. The numbers can be fine-tuned to be roughly equal to the difference with 10% critical chance.

##                             Minor Items

###item 3142 Youmuu's Ghostblade

  • 15% crit chance

  • Increase Armor Pen. Alternative: AD or CDR or combination

Ghostblade is a semi-minor item that has recently risen in popularity. It's useful for its early game spike in damage, valued in particular by AD Casters. But who benefits the most from it? Autoattacking, AD caster champions, to wit: Lucian and perhaps Twitch. We can do better. Moving its crit to more APen, with a combination of AD or CDR expands Ghostblade's relevance within its niche; it will remain very useful on Lucian, but will have better continuity among AD caster champions. This change arms Ghostblade with greater reliability and further cements it in its unique niche as an early AD Caster power spike that falls off as the enemy builds armor.

AD, CDR, or some combination is another route to explore.

###item 3005 Atma's Impaler

  • 15% crit chance

  • Builds from Pickaxe. Add 25 flat damage to it. Adjust price accordingly.

This item is only good on Garen, who also happens to have AD ratios almost as high as Talon, so he would have no problem with this change.

###item 3123Executioner's Calling

  • 20% crit chance

Replace with 15% lifesteal for niche as lane trading item, or replace with AS to provide better late game scaling as a dedicated AD + AS item. You could honestly do whatever you want with it atm because no one builds this anyways.

###item 3131Sword of the Divine

Leave it as it is. 100% crit chance is not random and now it's also unique.

###Brawler's Glove/Cloak of Shadows/Avarice Blade/Zeal

item 1051 removed

item 1018 removed

item 3093 Now grants 10% AS instead of 10% crit.

item 3086 Builds from two daggers. AS% increased to 25-28%

###Runes Crit runes removed. Did anyone really like getting crit in lane when your opponent is running one crit mark with <1% chance?

###    Champions       Pantheon Shaco Ashe Tryndamere Garen Yasuo

My suggestions (not perfect! - Trynd, Garen and Yasuo need work. Feel free to help!):

  • Pantheon Unchanged because he has 100% crit - not random

  • Shaco Unchanged because he has 100% crit - not random

  • Ashe The above suggestions actually buff her passive, so it may not need a rework. Still: Rework concept - Ashe's basic attacks apply a debuff that lowers an enemy's slow resist by 10% (stacks 3 times). Alternative: Ashe's basic attacks inflict a stacking counter at a rate proportional to the number of slows active on them. At X stacks, the counter is consumed for %AD damage.

  • Tryndamere Passive grants +% bonus damage up to 35% bonus damage (exact same as now!). If it multiplies with IE, his late game scaling stays within 5% the same damage. His mid game scaling is 4.5% stronger with SS or 8.8% stronger with PD.

  • Garen IE passive applies to his AD ratios on E. (riskier suggestion: attack speed scales his number of E ticks, applying more ticks of either base damage or AD ratio)

  • Yasuo Currently discussed below in comments. It's been difficult using my changes to crit, but with a different approach it seems straightforward.

Consider this: The longer we wait, the more crit-based champions like Yasuo will be released, and the harder it will be to go back and make a change to the last RNG effect in the game.

###Final Words

These changes are ideas of what can be done, not necessarily the exact values or even solutions that should be used. If we put our heads together, we can find viable alternatives to critical strike.

We got rid of dodge, we successfully altered Phage, we fixed fear. Now let's do ourselves a solid and boot crit once and for all. Luck should not be a replacement for skill.



###               Viable alternatives from other posters / TL;DR


Two other solutions have been proposed so far that promise likely smoother transitions than my own. Rather than replace crit with new gameplay, they aim to leave the system (including champions and items) as it is but remove the RNG aspect. This section summarizes the main proposed methods.

Some other solutions have also been suggested that haven't been fully fleshed out yet, such as "earning your crits."

####Diffusing crit's damage spikes

"Passive: Weapon Efficiency: amplifies the damage of auto attacks by a percentage of total AD. This bonus damage does not affect towers."

This converts your %crit chance directly into a %Damage bonus. IE's unique passive multiplies this damage by 1.5. All dps values come out to the same as live. All items would stay as they are, only %crit chance would be renamed to weapon efficiency. Here's an example of how it could be implemented.

Advantage:

  • Very smooth transition. You can directly convert crit-based champions like Yasuo and all items so that their DPS is the same as live, and they will play similarly as well.

In lieu of big, satisfying crit numbers on the screen, the damage can be color coded for increasing amounts of damage to better communicate to the opponent how much damage is being dealt, as well as reward the player aesthetically for dealing tons of damage.

Tooltip from Sacred Salvation

Alternative suggestion that would be even easier to implement ####Enforcing crit's statistical average

Submitted by a couple of users

This implements a stacking counter which increases every auto attack proportional to %crit chance. Taking PD as an example, your counter increases every autoattack by 30. When you pass 100, it consumes 100 points and converts it into a crit. Ex:

30, 60, 90, 120 (crits on 4th strike and minus 100 stacks)

20, 50, 80, 110 (crits on 3rd strike and minus 100 stacks)

10, 50, 70, 100 (crits on 3rd strike and minus 100 stacks)

In order to prevent abusing it by timing it for enemy champions, separate counters would exist for minions and champions.

Advantage:

  • Retains the same "feel" as the current system with critical hits but eliminates the RNG factor. Possibly an even smoother transition than the other solution because the "burst" of a crit remains present.

QTPie criticized this as being too easy to prime a crit before a trade. Here's an idea that I found interesting in the thread.

####This Post's Proposal – Dual Wield

A mix of the above two: It retains the "burst" feel of crits in limited scenarios through a new, interactive mechanic. It sacrifices perfect numeric conversion for a (hopefully) good-gameplay mechanic. This method may be difficult to implement for some champions (discussion pending) and requires heavier modification of most existing crit items.

With the purchase of either a PD or Statikk Shiv, every 3rd attack deals bonus damage. The attack counter decays when not fighting, like Jax's passive.

Advantage:

  • The advantage is mostly contingent on whether the mechanic of Dual Wield is fun or not. It also proposes comprehensive removal of crit's weaknesses from the game (ie. RNG and inconsistency, but also item usability issues stemming from crit catering exclusively to autoattack champions).

####2nd Proposal (band-aid fix to current pRNG system)

  • Reduce % Crit Damage in half from 200% to 150%.
  • Double all sources of % Crit Chance
  • Any % Crit Chance that exceeds 100% is converted to % Crit damage at a rate of 0.5% Crit Damage for every 1% Crit Chance.

This takes advantage of the current PRNG system to continue determining critical hits. The higher % Crit Chance reduces the cases of low chance where PRNG doesn't function well (consider removing Brawler Gloves and crit chance runes anyways), while the lower % Crit Damage mitigates the impact of cases where PRNG fails and lucky crits occur.

Advantage

This deals very similar damage as live. Easily implemented. Maintains some RNG, as well as the burst of crits, and it is dramatically less likely to cause unfair exchanges. It's basically an improved version of now.


RE: Diffusing crit's damage spikes - Look up any conversation with Raytchet, TSM the cat, or Don Eulrich.

Answering criticism of my suggestions:

RE: Building PD + PD - check out my response to Critkeeper

RE: IE too strong with assassins - see response to Tortunga

RE: Changes to items not necessary - from shortfallguy. This actually makes implementation of my suggestions much easier.

http://i.imgur.com/9QP1b4s.png

This is right after 4.10 on Gosu's stream. It highlights how even if PRNG were to be considered a fair gameplay element, the psychological effect of feeling out of control of a situation is negative and possibly demoralizing. Nowhere in here was the dealer of the crit excited about getting lucky, rather the tone of everyone was commiserating. If you think this is the kind of negativity that can come out of a regular solo queue game, the backlash in a tournament setting, for example world championships, would be enormous and worth preempting. Those high pressure games are already tough enough without hurting their confidence through some perceived luck-based event.

To be fair, the Lucian did admit to needing to adapt after.

Source: http://www.twitch.tv/ mushisgosu/b/540732867?t=06h02m30s (fix the space in the middle)

409 Comments

RiotRiot Baconhawk20 votes

Given this is such an excellent post and is a topic of much discussion, we've decided to give it another day up as the Post of the Day!

drops bacon, flies away

KSHarrison5 votes

You've just made my day! Thanks for being supportive, Riot.

I always knew bacon was a sign of good things ;)

RiotMorello14 votes

Placeholder post to mention I want to dive into this, but my time is limited right this second. AWESOME post though, and really interested in talking about this (even internally) divisive topic.

KSHarrison6 votes

A response from any red is awesome. One from you would be simply amazing. I've been keeping up with all 200 comments (as I suspect a few others have as well - or close enough), so we can represent a range of opinions, in case there's no time for you to read through all the comments (although the main points are mostly in the OP or linked there anyways).

Really looking forward to hearing your side(s) :)

RiotMorello10 votes

I'm going to speak about the bigger considerations of Crit snd RNG less than specifics here. The reason is this is the way I tend to look at these types of problems and we're even discussing this internally - it's very sticky.

A few things I think we very much agree on, to start:

Crit in-lane is far more problematic than crit in teamfights or lategame

Since lane has an expectation of fighting between two people or groups that is a test of strategy and skill, crits in this phase "rob" the game of meaningful play when they occur. Crit runes are the most offensive, but Tryndamere in lane and Brawler's gloves do have cases here too.

Carries need or desire the additional multiplier crit provides

Whether we use critical strikes or some other system, the extra auto-attack multiplier better allows right-click champions to reach explosive levels. Some system here would likely be positive

At very least, we're discussing how to remove these problematic early game situations Rune changes are always REALLY painful though, so we have to be pretty metered in how and when.

A few assumptions that I think are contentious:

RNG has zero place in a competitive game

The purist approach is that 100% of actions are the result of 100% player inputs and control. This argument has many permutations - the bullet spread pattern difference in CS 1.6 and Source, crits in TF2, the "coin flip" of simultaneous throws in SF2, etc.

That said, I think how you use it, why, and where is important, but I don't think all RNG is incompatible with a competitive game. A good example of random is where it's circumstantial. In Football, it might snow in an outdoor field - an event outside the control of teams, but that can add interest and variety. I think crits in TF2 are undesirable (sorry, Valve).

Where I like random is where an event changes the context and options of a player or team. Snow makes you play differently. Crits, however might "just kill you" - not really creating new options in most scenarios. This is my favorite argument for removing crit, but it's not because "all RNG is bad".

For us, we are looking at crit itemization overall, and really care about the meaning of "Crit", if it should be there, and how to fix the early game problems. If we DIDN'T remove crit, we'd do something like:

  • Remove crit runes
  • Make a "minimum crit" of 15-20%
  • Keep crit almost entirely/entirely out-of-lane.
  • Make crit have its own "feel" as a build (on-crit effects, etc)

We still want to think about if we want crit, some of it is satisfaction (it feels "good" and allows us to create feedback loops) and history, so to remove it, I feel we'd need a good replacement for it. Some of the "on X hits" ideas you use are one direction I could see.

Thanks again for the awesome and well-thought-out post. Great stuff.

exec31 votes

I was going to suggest removing crit runes and brawler's gloves to keep crit out of lane. Also if crit damage feels too extreme (you mention crit might "just kill you") you could decrease the crit damage to 150% or 175%. It should still provide the satisfaction of getting that crit, just that the damage won't be as explosively increased.

You could also go the extreme path and say 'at 20% crit every 5th attack is a crit' thus removing the randomness of crits completely, probably undesirable this path.

RiotMorello5 votes

The % modifier is on the table too. x2 is pretty high!

KSHarrison1 votes

That's true, if you lower the % damage modifier on crit by half, then you could double the % crit chance on all items. That's a really easy change.

The only problem is that IE + PD would give you 100% crit already :)

exec31 votes

Who said crit chance needs buffs? Maybe the current crit damage just needs a straight nerf.

KSHarrison3 votes

True, well whatever plan Morello and Xyph have, I'm sure it will be a good one, too. As with anything, there are multiple solutions, and it's up to the design team to choose whatever they envision as best. Riot has yet to disappoint in anything it's reworked given enough time to tune it after.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

First things first...thanks for giving your thoughts on the matter here Morello.

Crit in-lane is far more problematic than crit in teamfights or lategame

I´m not completely in agreement here, right now critstreaks still have waay too much impact on the dps of a carry, even lategame. If you manage to get a flank on the opponent carry (maybe because the opponent LB goes in too deep or sth. like that) and you only get two attacks of till she steps out/ flashes away it can easily make the difference between a dead opponent and an opponent at 50%hp - which can mean a huge swing in a teamfight.

Carries need or desire the additional multiplier crit provides

There´s no doubt the dps-scaling of carries should stay as it is, but I think the discussion already highlighted a lot of possibilities to preserve dps without relaying on crit.

RNG has zero place in a competitive game

I think you listed two very different forms of RNG in your example:

-sth. like snow in football affects both teams in the same way, and forces both teams to react and adapt to the new situation and see if they can somehow get an advantage out of it.

-sth. like crit affects both parties very differently...one side gets a massive advantage and the other side gets a massive disadvantage, so there´s not much it adds for the gameplay - there´s not much of adapting to be done from either side to change things once they happened.

So I think RNG is ok, but only as long as it affects both parties in the same way, so both sides have the same change to take an advantage out of it.

We still want to think about if we want crit, some of it is satisfaction (it feels "good" and allows us to create feedback loops) and history, so to remove it, I feel we'd need a good replacement for it. Some of the "on X hits" ideas you use are one direction I could see.

I think that´s pretty much the most problematic part about removing crits, players are kinda used to the satisfying feeling...though I think a lot of it actually is tied to the art-side of things, not necessarily to the dmg. The bigger numbers are just satisfying to see (I personally really love the new Anivia-e numbers), and some Champions just have awesome crit-animations (Maokai!).

So I think Art is really a deciding factor in replacing crit, whatever can replace crit has to communicate the gain of power via visuals.

Worgslarg9 votes

I was expecting a giant rant about rng.

I was wrong. VERY well constructed post, I agree with the points.

Perhaps with this, tryndamere will become less of a lane cheeser, and ashe can get a better passive

NinjaFifer6 votes

All for Ashe getting a real passive!

Raytchet7 votes

TLDR : 10/10 Idea, 3/10 Execution. My idea below

I completely agree that crit is terrible for a competitive game, but the way you suggest to change it might become a hell for the balance team because of the sheer amount of change and addition of new items mechanics.

What do you think to instead change crit to a stat (let's call it critical damage) that would give autos and skills that can currently crit bonus damage equal to the mathematical expectancy crit would give (if you want maths, I can give it here, but I prefer keeping this as short as possible)

Basically, current crit chance = new crit damage and current crit damage = new crit multiplier, with critical damage capping at 100%, and critical multiplier being applied after every other modifier (including the cap)

IE would become : +25% Critical damage. Unique passive : x 1.5 Critical Multiplier

This would make AAs and the affected skills deal 37.5% more damage by itself, which is exactly what you would expect with current crit chance. A PD by itself would give 30% increased damage. Both would give 55%x1.5 = 82.5% increased damage, like what crit does on live, but in a consistent and predictable manner.

KSHarrison9 votes

Translation: Critical Chance simply becomes a damage multiplier equal to the chance, so a 30% crit chance is a 30% increase in damage.

This is another way you can go. My goal was to create interesting gameplay with different mechanics as opposed to just passive bonuses from flat damage increases. My values also come out negligibly close to live.

One thing: The PD/Shiv passives are unique, which means there's nothing to balance because they won't stack.

Here was my thinking: Currently, there are no other items with crit that need balancing. The thing with crit is that it's not in high demand. Melee bruisers need survivability, which precludes ever getting past at the most IE + PD in any imaginable build. Ranged AD carries are all Marskmen who have a cut and paste build order. New items down the road aren't likely to go into the realm of crit because bruisers and marksmen can't fit it. Thus, there's nothing to balance if new items aren't going to be made to explore this design space.

Admittedly, sometimes Marksmen do build two PD, which would be problematic with my suggested changes. This could be alleviated by introducing an AD + AS item, or allowing the PD/Shiv passives to stack with 50% bonus damage, or weakening the passive but buffing the AS to mitigate the difference.

There are a lot of options, but I think we can all agree that Crit just has to go.

Raytchet2 votes

I love your ideas, but I still think there are two major problems with it:

  • Even thought it might add more depth into the game, the double strike passive be less (or more) effective than actual crit by either abusing it by stacking it on minions beforehand, or having some very small harass exchange (See TSM Wild Cat's post).

  • So many things to implement at once : All the crit items reworked, a new mechanic that might need further balancing and has some interaction issues (double strike, how will it interact with Yi's passive? with lucian's? with Cait's? with Draven's spinning axes?), but it would also need a rework of Tryndamere, Yasuo and Ashe's passives, alongside a complete rework of gangplank (who's already in a pretty bad spot, with his crit build being one of the only usable). I'm no expert, but all of this seems pretty hard to implement at once (or we'd have to skip balance changes in a patch), and the sheer amount of interactions (especially with the double strike passive) might leave a lot of bugs behind for Riot to fix. I doubt they'll try so hard to fix something that isn't considered broken by many. And while I am as conviced as you that crit has to go, I don't think your idea is the way to do it realistically

KSHarrison4 votes

Well Yi, Lucian, Cait, and Draven would have no synergy with these mechanics. Yi's Double Strike always deals half damage, and so does Lucian's Lightslinger; that much can remain the same. Caitlyn has always added Headshot's damage to IE's bonus. That can also stay. Draven's axes also do not benefit from crit, so no bonus from IE.

It would be the exact same interaction as before with the new changes. I don't know how much work that involves in coding around.

Regarding Gangplank, he has far more problems than critical strikes :/

As for whether Riot will ever approach crit, who knows? Two to three years ago, they removed Dodge by hell or high water. The community was enraged the entire time because they thought it wasn't broken.

As for your first point on how Double Strike would play out, I can't deny you could very well be right. Your suggestion would definitely be safer.

Raytchet3 votes

Sorry if I didn't word it clearly, but I meant, how does Double Strike works with other adcs skillsets : Does Lucian's second attack count for double strike? does he lauch 3 attacks with his passive and double strike? Does the second attack count for Caitlyn's headshot? For Braum's passive? For Graves' Quickdraw's cooldown reduction? If Draven has two axes up, does he throw both at the same time or is the second attack not a spinning axe? Does the second attack ricochet if you activate Sivir's W? How does it interact with Hurricane's passive : every bolt currently counts as an auto for Caitlyn's passive or Graves' E. If it stays consistent, does it mean a second attack every Auto? (+ Headshot on every hit, no CD Graves E)...

So many interaction Riot would have to plan, and especially with the crit chance gone, PD could get abused by other champions (0 CD Skarner, Rengar double q + double auto) and even if it is not obvious now, someone will find a way to make it broken on a champion.

On a unrelated note, if this subject had to be bumped by more posts (here, on GD or on Reddit), would you authorize the copy-pasting of your first paragraph? It is really well done and summarize the problems with crit really well.

KSHarrison1 votes

Hey any ideas for how to reach out to other forums? I tried Reddit but got a low response and GD just downvoted me because of CB.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

i posted the link ~5times in EU-GD within topics about crits&leagues, to get already interested people onboard here. Dunno how effective that has been though.

well if somebody is going to sit on a crit it means they cant farm. a marksman that does not farm becomes what late game?

Adding a decay on it might help if somebody has a valid argument...

Exp after 4 sec once u have reach 100 u will lose 2 crit a second this will start from any crit you have over 100 exp I reached 100 crit points but have 10 to spare so I can sit on the crit no longer then 4 + (10/2) = 9 sec b4 the crit is lost.

mh, i think a big part of the crit-problem is it´s "spikes"...and if you attain a guranteed spike with that system you can zone the opponent, only zoning for 2-4minions can mean a huge swing in lanecontrol already, so i think on the highest lvl of play there can always be situations in which the "enforced crits" could be abused.

I personally highly favour a solution that makes the dmg less bursty...as we already have assassins/casters in the game for huge dmg-spikes - carries should be about consistent-dps, not about killing someone with 2crits (meaning right now i´d prefer either weapon-efficiency or flat out reducing crit-dmg to sth. like 150% and doubling the critchanges, to keep things more consistent).

P.S. It would be pretty awesome if Riot made a 2nd game that was an RPG or something like Dynasty Warriors (Dynasty Warriors genre would fit the League Champs for what they are). To allow Riot to expand on lore. Also, who doesn't like more money? Also, to avoid someone from bringing up money+Manpower. They can hire more people to make the game, this new game would generate profit for them as opposed to the removal of crit.

I certainly would love having a LoL-based RPG/RTS/platformer/whatever...but you really shouldn´t mistake a MOBA for an RPG - crit has a solid niche in RPGs, as most focus on PvE and longer/more frequent fighting...so RNG doesn´t face the problem of low-numbers at all within most RPGs. MOBAs on the other hand focus on PVP-action where every action of a player should matter - an evironment in which RNG really should be avoided (especially if the game strives for some professionalism where money is on the line).

MidIane Høkage7 votes

I think the doublestrike idea is bad, it's like Vayne's silver bolts, you need to get x amount of hits or it's worth nothing, nobody wants to invest gold into something that unreliable. You need to get x number of autos just to get your gold's worth out of an item that's bad. The IE passive that you proposed should just be applied to PD/Shiv in the amounts needed to keep their dps about the same that it is now, and trinity should get some sort of other buff in spell blade or and AS/AD/AP combo. All of the changes to the other more minor crit chance items are good how they were proposed, I think the buff to Youmuu's should definitely be the AD stat though, more flat ArPen would break it, more cdr would break it, but more AD would make it more slot effective and a viable buy for more champions.

KSHarrison2 votes

Cool thanks for your feedback. I'm open to other ideas; I just want crit replaced in a sensible way. I couldn't make this thread without presenting at least one solution.

What do you think about using minions to stack the Double Strike, so you hit a minion two or three times then go to trade? Your hands could light up like Trinity Force when it's ready. You could have a 2 to 4 second cooldown on your double strike stacks.

MidIane Høkage3 votes

There are multiple reasons why I don't agree with the Double Strike passive, it can either be abused for 100% crit chance in essence, by building stacks on minions/jungle creeps, or it's useless until you get the proc off, which you might not always do, or it might be too late by then because you didn't get the damage you payed gold for when you needed it earlier in the trade or fight, it's just not consistent. Also if you put a cooldown on it, then you're just letting people negate your damage by keeping track of your stacks and backing off when you are about to double strike, and you won't be able to have that double strike at all for the first 3 or 4 (depending on PD or Shiv) hits of a team fight where you can't pre-stack it, which is very crucial time wasted. It would just be better to use the same % bonus damage like you proposed on IE, except with numbers corresponding to PD and Shiv's current power levels to keep the dps about the same.

tldr: The proposed IE passive change should just be what crit is changed to overall, this type of itemization is about CONSISTENT damage over time, and double shot provides too much counterplay to something that revolves around consistency and was fine (not broken or in need of counterplay) in large samples anyways. This just brings the consistency more in line to a flat sustained damage that is reliable and predictable without unneeded counterplay that defeats the point of the damage type in the first place.

Edit: Also on a side note, stacking a PD with a IE won't be as effective with that though I don't believe? because the IE won't be influencing the PD's % damage increase will it? Idk it's late and I can't think numbers right now too much. And I think the same % damage increase that should be added in replacement of crit to IE/PD/Shiv should replace the crit chance on Youmuu's Ghostblade and also it should have it's AD increased (obviously with a price increase) to make it a more viable choice for more champions without wasting a valuable item slot on a bunch of stats in low amounts without 1 real defining purpose of the item.

NinjaFifer6 votes

I get the feeling that some people are just downvoting because of some math that seems kind of unsubstantiated. I know I was looking at his math down at the bottom response and wondering where exactly he got these numbers from. I was thinking on the crapper about how to simplify exactly how much damage crit % adds to a character's damage, so I did exactly that, oversimplified it:


Imagine you attack 100 times, dealing 1 damage each time. A crit doubles your damage, and we'll assume that over the 100 attacks you crit exactly as many times as your crit % tells you, cause that's how probability works.

--A Phantom Dancer brings 30% crit, so 30 hits crit for 2 damage apiece. 70 normals, 30 doubles, 130 damage total. Your overall damage for 100 attacks goes up 30%.

So you see, a % increase in crit chance directly relates to a % increase in overall damage, if you factor in enough trials to make the RNG irrelevant. What the OP intends to do is find some other way to get the same % increase to overall damage, while removing the RNG so we can feel more in control of our trades.

IE's passive just add's an extra half-hit's worth of damage for every crit, so you can add half the crit chance again to the % increase.


I feel that his suggestions are very strong, and feel that Riot should really take a look at this. These are all suggestions that I feel could really make a difference in the game.

Sacred Salvation5 votes

I love the idea of adding a %damage increase to these items to keep up with the %damage increase that crit gave.

For example, you said the crits on IE gave about a 37% increase in damage so you made auto attacks deal 37% more damage.

Do that for all the items including PD and SS and call it "Weapon effeciency" instead of crit.

"Passive: Weapon Efficiency: amplifies the damage of auto attacks by a percentage of total AD. This bonus damage does* not** affect towers."*

Boom, you keep the damage increase that crit was supposed to give you, but it ONLY applies to auto attacks and it is treated exactly like crit was."

Earl Eulrich3 votes

I really like the sound of that, weapon effeciency sounds a lot better than +%aa-dmg.

Manchette4 votes

It would be great if this got attention. A lot of good points are brought up here.

Worgslarg4 votes

+26 and no red thoughts yet?

IlyaK19862 votes

The proposed changes are so silly--why? Because the crit on PD and IE stack. I have a PD, I have an IE, I'm getting a 55% crit rate at 250% per crit. There's a synergy. For argument's sake, let's go with 200 damage with IE and PD.

Old way:

.45200+.55500=365 (average). In 4 attacks, this comes out to 365*4=1460.

New way:

2001.35=2705=1350.

Already, we see that this is weaker. However, the problem is that in the above example with crits, you smacked them with two attacks and odds are, one of those was going to make their head spin. Here, you have to be standing still, and autoing someone for several seconds and not get vaporized.

I suppose though, that this is good considering that all the tank stuff is getting (Randuin's) or has already gotten (Sunfire, spirit visage) nerfed.

KSHarrison7 votes

You are misrepresenting the addition of PD because you are not including the value of the extra strike. This extra strike brings its own synergy. For the sake of thoroughness, I'll formally develop the comparison here.

Crit's damage multiplier (crit factor):

Crit factor = %Crit Chance / 100 * (%Crit Damage / 100 - 1) + 1.

Doing this, we obtain the following Crit Factors:

  • IE = 1.375
  • PD = 1.30
  • Shiv = 1.20
  • IE + PD = 1.825
  • IE + Shiv = 1.675

In my proposed changes (difference in bold parentheses):

IE alone adds 35% (1.35) bonus damage to autoattacks.

  • IE = 1.350 (-2.5%)

PD adds one extra attack every 3 attacks, this is a 33% increase in damage.

  • PD = 1.33 (+3.3%)
  • IE + PD = 1.35 x 1.33 = 1.80 (-2.5%)

Shiv adds one extra attack every 3 attacks at 60% damage, this is a 20% increase in damage. Double strike will increase the DPS of its lightning bolt (not shown here).

  • Shiv = 1.20 (0)
  • IE + Shiv = 1.62 (-5.5%)

I think these small differences are very workable and can be adapted into the game with little effect to current AD carry DPS. For example, raising IE to 37.5% makes everything align perfectly except IE + Shiv (-2.5%).

Also, the actual difference in damage is smaller if you look at it relatively. For just IE: 1.375 / 1.35 = 1.8% relative difference as opposed to the 2.5% absolute difference given above. The relative value is probably a better method of comparison because that's the performance difference you'll see in game.

Yes, you need a few attacks for the damage from PD/Shiv to develop, but currently in live three/four attacks is statistically how many attacks you would need anyways to get a crit. If you are relying on landing a crit in your first one or two attacks, then you are rolling the dice every time you go to lane on whether you win or lose. The tradeoff these changes accomplish is that dice never need to be rolled - in bot lane, everything's even.

Also the counter on PD/Shiv may not need to be reset between combat. In that case, it's very possible to trade with only one or two autoattacks and get off guaranteed burst. This is something that would require testing to see how it plays out.

Tortunga2 votes

I'm completely behind the idea to remove crit but I think it's a lot harder to change it then people think.

Changing crit to increased AA damage (the most suggested option) is fine from an adc perspective (there damage output would be still the same) but could potentialy have a mayor impact on any champion that uses AA, like assasins/bruisers. They would normaly never build crit because it's unreliable and not really effective with low amounts but if it's a flat AA damage increase it turns it in a very reliable stat for those assasins/bruisers. An infinity edge with 70 AD + 35% AA damage increase can easily become a core item on assasins.

Besides that it was already mentioned in another post how it could effect certain champions with there passives but how will it interact with abilities that enhance there next AA damage. Can for example rengar's Q hit twice with double strike or hit for an extra 35% with IE? And can GP's parley hit twice too with double strike?

KSHarrison6 votes

Talon - Last Whisper, Black Cleaver, Hydra, TF

Zed - Last Whisper Black Cleaver, Hydra, BotRK

Riven - BC, Last Whisper, Hydra

Pantheon - BC, Last Whisper, Hydra

These are core build items taken from the top Lolking guides for the respective champions. Most of them suggested GA, Maw, BT, Trinity Force, and even IE as situational items for the above.

Let's start making comparisons. We'll begin with the non-AD elements:

###Assassin's sources of DPS

####Armor Pen

http://i.imgur.com/6nJFmYx.png?2

LW = Last Whisper

BC = The Black Cleaver

GB = Youmuu's Ghostblade

The table above shows the successive % damage increase in upgrading your items. For example, with an enemy at 80 armor, LW + BC together provide a 42% increase in damage from armor pen. But in terms of relative gain with each item, buying a LW first increases your damage by 21%, and an additional BC would multiply that damage with LW by 18%.

Armor pen is significant because it applies to both abilities and autoattacks, and this is where almost all of an assassin's DPS comes from. IE's passive applies to basic attacks only. Essentially, do you want a 35% increase on your basic attacks, or do you want a minimum 20% increase on your abilities PLUS 20% increase on basic attacks? The answer is abilities; if you want that ~15% difference on basic attacks over 20% ability damage, then you're better off playing an AD Carry.

The important thing to notice here is that GB may actually be competitive with IE after buying LW and BC.

####Ravenous Hydra

  • Hydra and IE offer almost the same AD

  • Hydra's active is already equal to 3 basic attacks with IE. This is only a slight DPS increase because the animation takes place over one attack

  • If Hydra's AoE hits anyone else, it's dealing more DPS than IE

  • Hydra facilitates splitpushing

  • Hydra offers sustain and a better build path

  • Hydra will soon be offering CDR (Whoops, this is part the new Essence Reaver, my mistake!)

Hydra (or Essence Reaver) are strong options for sustain on assassins. And I don't see Riot releasing a new item that's UP.

####Trinity Force

  • Adds ~200-~400 damage per ability if you can channel it correctly.

  • An average assassin AD ratio is around 400%. This equates to 200 damage difference between the AD bonus of TF and the AD bonus of IE. That's just one proc of TF.

  • TF's attack speed bonus is around +20% damage amplification of basic attacks, equivalent to about 60% of the bonus from IE's passive.

TF wins AD-wise based on just one proc; with two procs it competes with IE's passive It's a similar price and provides far more utility.

####Sword of the Divine

  • This adds a 300% AD ratio to your combo. You lose on 70 AD, but this will do more for your burst than anything else.

####IE's new role

Since BT has been lowered to 80 AD, if IE wasn't being used before, it has suddenly become waaay more attractive, even for assassins.

The proposed crit removal changes (mine or others in this thread) do not change the DPS output of IE, it just makes it more consistent. If you think this will prove a motivating factor for assassins to build IE, the fact that BT has been nerfed and IE buffed is actually far more significant. The proposed changes here will have almost no influence compared to the BT nerf & IE buff.

####Disclaimer on the analysis

There are some caveats, namely that the LW, BC, and GB all offer less AD than IE, which means IE does participate in the ability damage of these assassins. I believe the build path and utility of these items make up for the difference, but if you want to discuss this aspect in more detail, I'd love to hear your side.

###Summary

I've named 5 offensive items that I believe will be better or at least equivalently good options than IE for an assassin. Most assassins already stop at 3 or 4 in order to build tanky. I don't see IE upsetting the balance of assassins.

I'd love to hear your thoughts. This is a reply not just to you but others who have expressed a similar concern.

Tohoko the Neko1 votes

I'm not entirely against the idea of "phasing out" the crit stat BUT I'm not entirely for it either.

Here's why. Champions like Yasuo who's relying on crit and has utility built into his kit with that particular stat being the center and held in mind while creation is made. I would actually preffer less champions being released if critical strikes is, or not, taken into consideration just as much as any other stat. It's just really more apparent and outstanding in Yasuo.

Really though, if crit strike is out the door, so is the current gameplay of champions like Yasuo and Ashe that have crit chance built into them either through the basic passive or utility passive in a skill are gone and need to be reworked really seriously because if crit is out, how and more importantly WHAT can fill that hole? More AS or more AD just won't be enough to start to close the gap even a little in terms of damage output with the current setting for the crit chance right now.

Here's what it makes me think about though if crit chances are gone/replaced with AD&AS. There won't be anymore crit builds which is what champions like Gangplank, Caitlyn, Jax,etc. rely on to inflict the maximum amount of damage the kit can and is designed for. Instead, you'll have champions like Heimerdinger or Janna and even Malphite act like they are ADCs when they really aren't because of the extra amount of AD&AS the proposed changes offers. I would personnaly love to see an AS or AD Malph build once just to see how much damage output can be done before he needs to become more tanky since the lifesteal just won't be enough to keep him healthy. Would definetly break the meta in a grandiose way to have an ADC Malphite.

Two major, and other problems I see with your overall suggestion.(I'm not forgetting the others, just haven't gotten to them yet.)

  • How can you completely remove the crit stat if you leave in crit chance items like sword of the divine? That would just mean, to me, summoners who want to have crit chances are forced into buying a single item that is or isn't ideal for the situation or the build order in "feast or famine" lane scenario. Sure item 3046 gives plenty of stats and is currently a viable item for ADCs but having a hit counter unique passive that might or not reset itself after X amount of time kind of implies a bigger chance factor than the current RNG crit chance. I'm sure that wasn't your intention but you aren't removing anything in that specific way.

  • Removing recipe items mean you are effectively removing/forcing away core items like item 3087 or item 3123 and item 3093 in terms of efficient build orders. That kind of means to me that if I want to do serious damage to the enemy front line, I'll have to go heavy AD all in or stay in the backline and choose a different champion to play with that isn't relying so much on AD. In other words, you screw an ENTIRE TEAM composition with standard roles right into a corner and out of overall damage output based on who has better runes and who can hit AAs first which makes the carry's role either really easy or down right impossible to play because he explodes the milisecond he tries to engage in a teamfight. Removing crit based/oriented items means that substitional items have to be introduced and that just might break more things than fixes them.

Part Two is next.

KSHarrison2 votes

Hey man, one thing I wanted to stress: We came up with some solutions in this thread that deal the same damage as live and can be transferred to champions like Yasuo and Ashe so that their damage is still exactly the same. There are no changes necessary. Crit's RNG is gone, while everything else, including damage and scaling, stays the same!

Also, the suggestion I made for PD has zero RNG. It always procs every 3rd hit. The extra damage from the proc mirrors almost exactly the damage that crit deals.

Every solution in there will deal the same damage as crit. You won't lose your scaling or be stuck stacking AD and AS! Also, the recipe items in Shiv, Executioner's Calling and Avarice Blade were replaced - no holes, still just as viable :)

Tohoko the Neko1 votes

I personnaly like a little hint of random luck in my playstyle, forces me to react on the fly to a rapidly evolving situation where I have to be snappy if I want to not die.

You have crit chance remove and it becomes a simple brawler game rather than a MoBA since for me it'll boil down to "I go ALL-IN and die or simply don't engage." thought process rather than something like "I have 50% chance to cause double my normal basic attack damage right now and the next hit just might kill that fed renekton which would give me shut down gold or I let him go for fear of a counter gank." thought process, which to me is MUCH MORE involving and challenging than just having to decide if I go in or don't.

The solutions you have gathered up aren't bad, but for LoL to stay a challenging experience, rapid and complex decision making has to stay. Competitive players can say what they want but really, they aren't above the casual gamer. They are folks, like you and me, with a different point of view on the direction of their JOB than the millions of players around the world. League didn't become the biggest game in the world because of the LCS or the pro players or Worlds, it got where it is now because of ordinary people playing a game they love. Nothing more. Nothing less.

adding on damage ratios will unilateraly give ONE UNIQUE build for every ADC and crit chance reliant champions if they want to perform in optimal situations which are basically handed out on a golden platter. To me, that just sounds so boring as all hell because then the ADC role loses all meaning and just becomes another damage dealing champion and loses its identity. Evelynn Akali Leblanc Nidalee Rengar Talon Ahri Kassadin Khazix Zed, and even MasterYi which I have an utter hatred devoted towards, are all assassins. They have plenty of kill potential in their own ways. YOu remove the ADC's role and you've got a bunch of useless assassins that are only dishing out a steady stream of static damage rather than a burst. Crit is required to make the ADC feel valuable in a teamfight rather than just be another base damage dealer.

If you don't agree with me, thats fine because I don't agree with your views, but that doesn't mean I don't understand why you want it gone.

But hear this, and hopefully understand it as well, if you remove the crit chance out of the game, Yasuo's power drops down dramatically to the point where he has to go full tank unless there's a rework on his total crit chance passive to compensate the loss and I don't think that anything short of a rereleased Yasuo will fix that issue. If crit chance does go away, Yasuo won't be as fun or hard to play as he is now. He's balanced, has strong lane presence and his flexibility allows for many playstyles with and without crit chance. Riot decides to remove the crit factor and Yasuo gets insta broken beyond nerfing range. Can't stress it enough.

The problem I have here is with the ALWAYS and ALMOST being used to convey an idea that was previously refered to as spot on and accurately replicates the desired result while A) keeping it luck based, B) making it feel EVEN MORE out of player control, C) doesn't have solid values to refer to, D) workable openness is only applicable if you can accuratly predict the results down to a single variable or common denominator.

KSHarrison1 votes

*But hear this, and hopefully understand it as well, if you remove the crit chance out of the game, Yasuo's power drops down dramatically to the point where he has to go full tank *

I'll repeat this since you just ignore it every time: We have solutions that remove the RNG in crit but allow Yasuo's power to stay the same. It's as simple as 2 x 2 = 4. You can do the math and see the damage is the exact very same.

  • The solutions we suggest implementing do not cause any champion to deal less damage than live.

We can discuss the point if you'd like, but please acknowledge my claim here.

Tohoko the Neko1 votes

I can discuss just about anything, but I'm not going to simply role( typo, lol =D ) over and not reply if I don't think the arguments isn't worth acknowledging and I think I'm doing a fairly good job warning you of the static gameplay the changes introduce.

Yasuo's basic attacks will always crit thanks to his passive if he builds 50% crit chance. Remove that and what do you replace it with? Attack Speed? AD? I honestly don't think it can work, regardless the numbers. Here's what I think can and most likely will happen to Yasuo if crit chance is removed entirely.(not saying it can't have a redux or anything like that.)

I currently run 14% crit chance runes, I usually build toward the late game on Yasuo(like on most of my other champions build orders/paths) and I can deal an average of 1200 DPS with full crit stats and AS in a standard lane with even trades that go either way because I'm against an average LB.

If the crit chance is removed and the damage adjustment is implemented instead, I end up doing a fixed 400 DPS at the same stage of the game with the exact same conditions except that LB has killed me 18000 times on her own while I can't get any kills/assists or even significantly damage her out of lane because I can only do extra damage every X basic attack which don't proc by, I would think, spells that are treated like basic attacks like his Q while not being an authentic AA. If the current game build/mechanics(or whatever) counts basic attack like spells as legitimate AAs, then OK, Yasuo's power will stay the same; but if it doesn't, what I've described above is what I envision for his future in League.

I'm probably being an alarmist over nothing but I think it's a justified concern nonetheless that chance shouldn't be taken out of every equasion.

To my way of thinking, that 2X2=4 example isn't accurate enough for Yasuo. That solution would actually be doing something like 2X2=3, which I know isn't what you, or anyone else, wants to happen, me included, but reducing Yasuo to simply a matter of fixed numbers for his damage output isn't a fun and exciting way to play him for me. I hope I cleared up a few things for you here.

P.S. The Yasuo/LB scenarios I presented is without any ganks or roams from either of the junglers or lanes. Forgot to mention it and was gonna become too complicated and long winded of me too quickly to be reasonably understandable while conveying my worries and concerns accuratly enough about my opinion on the need of luck influenced statistics and situations.

P.P.S. I'm not against nerfing the crit chance or crit damage even as long as there's positive and consistent payoffs in return. Just not on board with removing it from A to Z and filling up the hole with only static numbers that aren't affecting anything else but themselves.

KSHarrison1 votes

[deleted]

Tohoko the Neko1 votes

wanted to mention to you that your nice looking schematic is incorrect about Yasuo's crit augmentation through his passive.

It is a 1 for 1 increase since it doubles it. So its a 20% increase rather than 16%.

KSHarrison2 votes

Last time I checked, crit damage is 200% of AD and taking off 10% of that doesn't make it 180%. As for IE's crit, it doesn't lose 25% from its passive crit damage modifier. If anything, it will be at 240% or 230% for Yasuo, NOT 225% like in your diagrams.

Click this. Go to show details on his passive.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

Well it does...200-10%=180, simple as that.

The 10% is not a flat number, it´s a relative value.

Tohoko the Neko1 votes

I'll stray off a little from the crit chance and talk about the RNG system by using a game genre that has recently gained a lot of popularity. I'm talking about RogueLikes of course.

"What does that have to do with LoL crit chance?" you may ask yourself With good logic. Here's how: Roguelikes are essentially games with unpredictable events that are either positive, negative or unaffective. The gameplay does NOT rely on player input to produce a result for said player. I have been playing a few of them for a while now and it always feels like it's a miracle when I don't get a negative event result because it does NOT involve me having to directly influence or manipulate an event equation for something that can be either good, bad or doesn't affect me in the least but is entertaining to see happen.

The link I want to make is this; when I survive an RNG event where I could lose the game, I feel like the luckiest bastard son of a bitch lucky that nothing happened to me and I continue on until the next event triggers and it's heads or tails again. Crits to me feel like the same thing when I get one, especially since they jump out at you in big red text. It feels exactly the same as when I would survive a Randomly Generated Event while close to death.

So yeah, I think that critical strike has its place in LoL regardless of unreliability of the RNG, because I feel like one strong crit at a clutch time can decide if I win a duel with say Nasus or Renekton, Mordekaiser and Kayle, even Teemo could be killed by a clutch and very much needed critical strike having its chance rather than just piling on as much damage as possible as fast as possible on the most squishy enemies.

That's taken care of, moving on to the other solutions...

Raising the crit's threshold is more viable than have a global ashe passive for every other champion. What I mean by threshold is instead of using numbers of 1-100 as a base percentage, why not cut it in half and effectively making crit chances go from 1-50 or 51-100? Of course there's a couple of tweaks to have but I think that reducing the range the RNG has rather than remove the Random part of it should be more convenient for folks who like to play Yasuo, Ashe, Caitlyn, Pantheon and other crit based champions, old and new to come.

Item changes now... I'll keep this fairly straightforward by saying that the ONLY item I'm ok with seeing a change is Executioner's Calling (item 3123 ) but only with the condition that the change makes it so it is an attractive and/or early game buy for that extra crit chance. I'd be happy with just a downprice so it can be purchased much earlier than something like item 3087 item 3142.

Lastly, item 3131's 100% crit chance is an ACTIVE effect and thus cannot qualify for either a change or removal of crit chance stat since, like I said above, forces the crit relying summoners to rush and constantly spam it out of cooldown to get the 3 crit strikes as fast as possible within 3 seconds. All the other items mentioned give a set %crit chance and stack on eachother and don't require activation while the SotD's %crit chance does with a fairly long cooldown that simply CANNOT run out twice in a teamfight, not even an extended one. The primary use of SotD is for the AS, not the crit active with a rather heavy cost/drawback in exchage of using it. "*DOes not grant attack speed while item is on cooldown. Chammpion kills reduce the cooldown of this items by 50%" kind of makes me think twice before buying it(personnaly, I pass on it).

KSHarrison2 votes

I understand that it feels good to get lucky.

But you are comparing LoL to another game that's based solely on luck and devoid of mechanical play. Ultimately, you can get a thrill out of anything and call it good, but that doesn't make it right for your game. It's like the argument: Don't include variety for the sake of variety. Sure, you get a thrill by having more options available, but it might not be the direction you want for the game. There are drawbacks associated with most things, and in the end you want a cohesive set of properties in your game.

It's a bit like comparing Dota 2 and LoL, in that there are different design goals that define each game. Although very different objectively examined, their goals work in their respective frameworks because the framework is designed to be consistent with the goals. That's why LoL should be consistent with its attitude regarding RNG, so that it ends up with a cohesive set of mechanics governing the game's experience and not a hodgepodge of various mechanics that, individually have value, but don't necessarily synergize together.

Comparing sensations across genres doesn't make sense to me as justification for porting mechanics to your game. The mechanics might not be right at all for how you've structured your game.

Tohoko the Neko1 votes

Roguelike games was probably not the best example to give then... How about Dungeons & Dragons?(BIG BIG FAN)

I'm currently playing a character that has had over 8 crits on a hearing test roll... after a few, the DM gave me a bonus of 7 for that stat. On another character with the same DM, intelligence based rolls were mostly fails. Same dice sets, same DM, different decision making for varying results.

I am convinced that removing the crit chance or replacing it with something like you proposed will take away all the fun I currently have out of LoL. I was taking it really serious when I first started and got really frustrated mostly at myself because I kept making bad decisions, regardless of queue. After a 3 months LoL hiatus, I started playing the game again and progressively learned what not to do in what situation. I read the game much better than 6 or 8 months ago. And wth the SR update coming soon, I think that decision making based on collected game information being simplified because of clarity is a much needed change and I don't think it can come any faster than it already is.

That said, I understand you try to explain and blame something out of your control for your bad time with the game but if you take the time to think that you aren't playing against an AI but another summoner that thinks, act and reacts differently than you do, the whole "remove the crit" thing loses its purpose. Thsts what I feel reading most of these comments anyways,(haven't got the time to go through them all tonight...)

KSHarrison4 votes

That said, I understand you try to explain and blame something out of your control for your bad time with the game

Look, you're pretending to be nice on the surface in this dialogue, but you are throwing in underhanded insults that's not so appreciated.

I am convinced that removing the crit chance or replacing it with something like you proposed will take away all the fun I currently have out of LoL.

I can't believe everything you enjoy about this game revolves around crit. If that's the case, then I guess there's nothing for us to discuss. If you're prepared to make a statement like that, then my words have no chance of being understood.

We'll have to settle for agreeing to disagree.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

I think this is the same (mistaken) argument as when people say RNG is alright for an RPG...you really have to acknowledge the difference between those genres and a MOBA, especially if the MOBA wants to be a competitive-esports-game:

1)in a rouge-like or an RPG you mostly focus on PvE - so the events occuring only affect yourself, not a heated battle between you and another player. So if you die due to unlucky RNG it´s pretty much still your fault, while if you die due to luck crits in LoL though you have outplayed your opponent it´s just frustrating.

2)in some cases in LoL there is quite a lot of money on the line - and I don´t think anyone would be happy if he loses a professional match in the S4 Championsships just because both ADCs rushed an IE and oneof them had an average critrate of 37%in that game with it and the other had 14% (which can happen rather easy with the system as it is, and make a huge difference)

3)In LoL every fight can decide the game, especially later on in the game - so even a single instance of RNG can decide the game then. In RPG/Rogue-likes bossfights usually tend to last long enough so RNG does work on high enough numbers, and non-boos-fights are mostly cannon fodder, so it doesn´t matter much if one crits or doesn´t.

4)last but not least....most Rogue-likes don´t really strive for being "fair", they mostly want to be unfair - finding a fine balance between frustration and success for their players.

Tohoko the Neko1 votes
  1. Thats hardly true depending on the given situation. If I play a video game like, say, Final Fantasy 7 and I finish the game without ever critting once(possible but I didn't see it for myself) in any circumstances. It doesn't matter if I crit or not if I can't focus on the target while it is focusing me down easily. (Graves or Nocturne can remove vision)

  2. Thats just a problem with the person itself for not stepping up and/or realize the power the enemy ADC has with a given playstyle. LemonNation researches a lot of things on whatever he can about a team because he understands that each person plays differently and will equip itself accordingly. Thats kind of why they've went to worlds and All-Star a couple of times already and are a world class team. Not because the ADC has a better chance to crit than the adversary does. It cannot be only about the numbers because then, it's not a MOBA anymore, its a game of chess.

  3. Crit chance in the current LoL late to end game loses its overall impact because there's usually too many other variables to account for to make it significant on the ADC since the assassin will most likely be killing them all and get an ace for his team while the tank is soaking up most or all of the damage of the enemy team. Crit chance is inherent in DPS because you have to average out the amount of damage you do for every single attack rather than just be a minion with a static attack value and be irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If there isn't a chance factor within every teamfight or every other cases then basically, you are saying that who ever wins the laning phase is automatically declared the winner of the game because there's nothing no one on the other team can do to catch up since it's already decided as a one way victory. I oftenly see other lanes that don't rely on crit chance carry the game so much harder than the ADC does with massive tons of damage.

  4. Roguelikes aim to have you think on what the possible outcomes are available to you. Usually, the results vary between one clearly positive, one clearly negative and a few others that are neutral/unaffecting to the event. Frustration happens because you hope to have the same result every time the event occurs. Thats reading a book, not playing any kind of game that isn't a visual novel. I'd rather have unpredictable outcomes, just like in real life, and adapt to the new situation rather than have myself stuck into a permanent losing pattern because every lane opponent I meet decided to just out damage me from under tower.

I don't want any part of a game that becomes static and is simply dictated by fixed numbers. It sounds OH SO BORING to me.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

I don't want any part of a game that becomes static and is simply dictated by fixed numbers. It sounds OH SO BORING to me.

If you can predict the outcome of your actions...that makes you to take action and leads to fast and dynamic gamepaly, as you permanently react to your opponents actions.

If things are unpredictable that only leads to caution and therefor static gameplay - i can´t see and pro-players willingly trading with someone that rushed an IE except they have a very clear advantage, just because the risk of getting outtraded by a lucky crit and therefor losing the lane is too high in this environment.

Actions should count, not RNG - that´s the point in this thread.

Tohoko the Neko1 votes

If I can predict the outcome of my actions, regardless of the situation, it doesn't qualify as a dynamic gameplay situation to me.

If things are unpredictable, like life is for most of the time, I have to constantly evaluate threat potential, positionings, manoeuvrability/mobility, damage output, sustain, etc. THAT is dynamic gameplay right there!

Pro-players shouldn't get any kind of special treatments simply because they are pro-players. At this rate, they'll be like movie stars in Hollywood pretty soon. I'm not saying they don't have the right to speak up about any given issue that they have but relying solely on their comments about a specific subject and making arbitrary decisions to resolve the problem is not something I respect or want to identify with.

Actions matter, but so does unpredictability.

If you can predict everything that will happen to and around you in a single day, you are either dead or a vegetable-like hospital patient with on time bodily functions. Almost hate to break it to y'all but life is dynamic and unpredictable. Thats a fact, not something that can be calculated or changed with numbers.

Earl Eulrich4 votes

If I can predict the outcome of my actions, regardless of the situation, it doesn't qualify as a dynamic gameplay situation to me.

It is Dynamic, because you cannot forsee the actions of your opponents - because it´s a PvP game and you are playing vs real humans. But that means you should have as much control as possible over your own actions, as well as you should be able to make an educated guess about what options your opponent has (->leading to outplaying them eventually, which is very dynamic). RNG just stands in the way of player vs player interaction.

For PvE-games RNG is a good way to create dynamic, but in an PvP-environment the human-factor already creates all the dynamic one could ever wish for (ofc some humans may not seem very dynamic, but the potential is there -it´s up to the player to take action, not to the game).

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