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"We don't want a sandbox mode because we don't want players to be expected to grind it"

Jesus is Savior··400 votes·21,137 views

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?

I want to test a new item or test for bugs, and Riot's fucking response is "no, we don't want players to be forced to use this mode to improve"

So instead I have to waste 20 minutes and farm up gold just to test a small simple thing? This company fucking sucks, and has no idea how to develop a game.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/riot-games/announcements/riot-pls

Sandbox Mode We’ve heard a number of player requests for a Sandbox Mode, with two main reasons: the first is trying out new content – which is something we value too. We want players to know what they’re getting and to be happy with the things they’re unlocking (we may investigate other ways to do this). The second is that players want to practice very specific skills without the constraints of a regular game. For this point, our stance is that sandbox mode is not the way to go. We want to make sure we’re clear: playing games of League of Legends should be the unequivocal best way for a player to improve. While there are very real skills one can develop in a hyperbolic time chamber, we never want that to be an expectation added onto an already high barrier to entry. On an individual level, we know this isn’t always true – some just want a space to practice flashing over walls without having to wait at least 3.6 minutes in between – but when that benefit is weighed against the risk of Sandbox mode ‘grinding’ becoming an expectation, we just can’t accept the tradeoff. We never want to see a day when a player wants to improve at League and their first obligation is to hop into a Sandbox. We do want to support your ability to grow in mastery, and there may be other avenues to do so, but not this.

GD cross-post: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/GD/VOV7pmtq-we-dont-want-a-sandbox-mode-because-we-dont-want-players-to-be-expected-to-grind-it

Reddit cross-post: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3fx88z/we_dont_want_a_sandbox_mode_because_we_dont_want/

253 Comments

46104328_DEL159 votes

It sounds like an excuse to me. And we all know how Riot feels about telling the truth, so...

Rozzeta130 votes

"In order to improve in the game, players should be exposed to our toxic playerbase, who will insult them for every single mistake made in the learning phase" - Riot Games.

Xonra7 votes

{quoted}

"In order to improve in the game, players should be exposed to our toxic playerbase, who will insult them for every single mistake made in the learning phase" - Riot Games.

^

SgtCrispy97 votes

But the 1-30 grind and the absurd cost of runes is perfectly okay?

Mauro5 votes

They might can make it so Sandbox unlocks at level 30 so players wont abuse it to level their accounts

Diananmen Square14 votes

That's not what they meant. What Rito said was pretty much "You shouldn't get better at the game by using a sandbox mode, but by playing normal league matches." , which is BS.

ccseancc1437 votes

I can understand where Riot is coming from. If you want to improve you should be playing normals and trying builds in sandbox is useless due to the fact that a core part of a build is its power spikes and build path which plays a huge factor in terms of a builds power. For example Professor Milks full crit Zed is stronger then the regular Zed build but, people dont build it due to the awful power spikes and early to mid game power. Also if you have enough knowledge of the game and how items interact with champions you should know how a build plays out before even testing it. In reality you SHOULD be changing your build/build path every game depending on your enemies and how you are gonna build against them.

ProtatoBlood13 votes

I don't want the sandbox to test builds, I want it so I can learn about new items, new mechanics quickly without going blind into a game, or having to grind in custom to test things. While I agree that much of learning the game should be playing it, I should not be forced to play full games just to see if I like something new.

Xonra9 votes

{quoted}

But the 1-30 grind and the absurd cost of runes is perfectly okay?

Same thing I thought.

Only problem is they are okay with that grind, because they hope it frustrates people enough to buy IP and XP boosts to make it quicker.

It's pretty sad.

TurquoiseYoshi11 votes

I'm nearly at the end of that "grind". It more feels like a reward when I finish it, as this is literally all I've done in this game so far. Smurfs are the ones who really dislike it because they can't play ranked immediately.

maikokk4 votes

the 1-30 grind is one of the rare legitimate aspects of the learning curve in LOL. the only people that dont appreciate this are people trying to level up alts, and overeager noobs that shouldnt be playing ranked

ImFromMexico48 votes

Yeah that is a pretty dumb stance. I don't think having a sandbox mode would make players feel obligated to use it. It would just be another tool to help learn the game, not another barrier.

TheFirstGokun1 votes

Well, what does sandbox really provide? IMO, most of the benefits of training can be learned from Custom and Bot games already.

Tusutaki18 votes

Are you really going to say that?

Testing out builds without wasting a lot of time Test and play out any scenarios you can think of Practicing aiming and dodging skill shots in a controlled environment Have a better understanding of minion control Adjusting variables to better understand multiple outcomes Practicing mechanics without the hindrance time

Must it really be spelled out for you? Why is it that 100% of the fighting games have a practice mode? Why is it that majority of the top tier players practice in practice/sandbox mode than vs CPUs?

NuSix335 votes

Not gonna lie, Riots nailing their own coffin with stances like that.

It's not even solo queue players who are getting the shaft with this. How much better would pro teams be if they could practice more specific team fight scenarios or playing from behind or surviving a 2 on 3/4 tower dive.

Do football teams have to play a whole game just to go through 2-minute drills, or cover blocking assignments, or running patterns, or audibles...etc.? Imagine if the MLB told players they were getting rid of batting practice and warm-up pitches because it sets an expectation that they don't want.

I'm sure there is more to Riot's reasoning here, does someone care to elaborate? What kind of expectations are you afraid of that aren't already in the game. You guys have always been ok with a first time player to a character getting shit on by his opponents and teammates. You keep adding new characters in a game that already has an overwhelming amount of match-ups to learn.

Zmuecat34 votes

Isn't there already an expectation of grinding custom games to improve CS? I mean, that's one of the first things I was told when I asked how to get better, and it's the same thing I pass on to everyone who asks because it is an important part of the game.

ChaoticPinecone12 votes

no, there is not an expectation of grinding custom games to improve CS. I never did, at least, and i was never told to.

If theres a sandbox mode, i really dont want to hear 'go play sandbox mode' when youre doing poorly in game. I heard enough of 'go play bots'.

Zmuecat22 votes

There's a difference of people telling you to go play bots, and someone telling you to practice doing X in sandbox mode/custom games. If you are failing and the guy is being a prick, they'll tell you to go play bots. These are separate issues, and if we removed bots, the assholes would just tell you to go to another mode, or another game.

I can't remember the last time anyone ever told someone asking for help to go play bots unless it was "If you haven't tried playing a champion yet, go get a bot game in and get your bearings before starting a real game" sense.

BottleCapster24 votes

It wasn't even that long ago that Riot themselves linked us to a video of a guy who practiced CSing in custom games for 10 HOURS.

To say that they don't want people "grinding" sandbox scenarios to get better is honestly just not good enough. Grinding customs is no better, and reducing tedium is something that would actually reduce some of the barrier to entry of a lot of champions and skills.

A new player who might want to practice Csing for instance has to start up and dismantle his own custom games several times to try and get proper eary csing tactics down. But with a sandbox mode not only could he reset the gamestate so if he messed up he could continue in the same instance, but he could also test out various other difficult mechanics and skills that are deemed necessary to higher level play.

I usually like to defend riot on this, but overall i just hear them saying "We don't want to put the time and effort into it" and dressing it up as concern.

Darkvolcan23 votes

Do you guys remember when GC said this game was aimed at a "hardcore" audience? While the quote was laughable, it was an official employee sharing the company's philosophy. And this "hardcore" game is against the notion of a practice mode lmfao

They don't know what they're doing

Vistha Kai23 votes

The second is that players want to practice very specific skills without the constraints of a regular game. For this point, our stance is that sandbox mode is not the way to go. (...) Some just want a space to practice flashing over walls without having to wait at least 3.6 minutes in between – but when that benefit is weighed against the risk of Sandbox mode ‘grinding’ becoming an expectation, we just can’t accept the tradeoff.

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I always knew Riot was full of it, but I thought there's a limit. I was wrong.

Xonra18 votes

They don't want you to feel obligated to grind if you want to improve...they just want you to:

  • Grind for icons. The grinding for the icons during this event was a bit excessive
  • Grind for IP. You won't get runes otherwise
  • Grind for xp. Getting to 30 is not a slow process realistically, unless you have a lot of time on your hands.
  • Grind for LP. Rarely does anyone have above a 50% winrate, and no one is perfect, so you basically have to grind games to climb if you want to climb in ranked.

God forbid a voluntary grind to improve in a more meaningful way that doesn't include having to set up a custom game and spend time to try and test an item or build, and hope the bots aren't completely idiotic or far too easy, etc.

fractalfantasies4 votes

{quoted}

They don't want you to feel obligated to grind if you want to improve...they just want you to:

  • Grind for icons. The grinding for the icons during this event was a bit excessive
  • Grind for IP. You won't get runes otherwise
  • Grind for xp. Getting to 30 is not a slow process realistically, unless you have a lot of time on your hands.
  • Grind for LP. Rarely does anyone have above a 50% winrate, and no one is perfect, so you basically have to grind games to climb if you want to climb in ranked.

God forbid a voluntary grind to improve in a more meaningful way that doesn't include having to set up a custom game and spend time to try and test an item or build, and hope the bots aren't completely idiotic or far too easy, etc.

This.

Many parts of this game are already a huge grind, so why does this optional grind which allows you to meaningfully improve, make the game worse?

Ramuhdo11 votes

Just want to point out DOTA2 has tools available in custom games that gives gazillions of gold, levels you up instantly and removes all cooldowns on skills, and yet no one's ever harassed me about not grinding enough in that mode or even just playing that hero first time.

While League's community isn't DOTA2's community, I do think we can handle a Sandbox mode without harassing each other into trying out sandboxes.

NuSix311 votes

I've come up with some theories, all or none of which may be true:

  • Chasing the Dragon - LINK

You don't ever catch the dragon. 70% of the player base is low elo. They don't want people to improve because if they become satisfied with their game performance, they're going to move on and play something else. The game may be balanced around the highest tier of players, but the survivability of the game is 100% dependent on the lower classes. 30% of the game populations spending RP is not going to be enough to carry Riot. IRL Bronze/Silver are the real carries. Give them an avenue to succeed and Riot fears they will simply get tired of the game.

  • Riot does not want to reveal coding or damage mechanics.

Why is MMR a hidden algorithm? I remember back in the vanilla WoW days where knowing how statistics applied to various classes was common knowledge and the result rendered a ton of items in game useless -- where as if the damage system was kept secret people would have spent a long time playing around with different items trying to maximize their damage. Instead it was clear what items at what level you should have as a certain character. Blizzard started ruining WoW before the first expansion catering to all these different stat needs -- a mistake I've seen Riot being very cautious about making.

Riot is afraid that a sandbox would give some very smart players an avenue to reverse calculate the inner workings of the game -- doesn't have to be specifically damage, or even anything having to do with stats, it could be anything from an unknown bug or exploit to knowing that a certain 5 characters combined are completely unbeatable at level 5 against all comps except X...etc. Remember how SS White would base team comps around their level 1? Imagine if that was the norm.

While I can understand the second reason a bit -- it's a development issue at heart. Riot doesn't want to have to rework half the cast when people figure out just how paper thin the game might be. And it really is with certain match-ups. The first theory, however, is pretty sinister at heart. Riot is rooting against the success of its own players, rather than finding an alternative means of keeping the cash machines going, they want to keep the lower classes ignorant and naive enough to buy the next Vayne skin.

Anrui8 votes

Honestly, I think it is #2 that is the real reason. It could possibly break the game if people figured out the inner workings of the game. At the competitive level a deep knowledge of the game is a good thing, however too deep a knowledge in a video game could break it. If you've ever watched a game speedrun, though spectacular, some runs make the game not even seem like the same game anymore.

It's dangerous if players learn certain things in your game.

The most I'd do in Sandbox would be dicking about with a bunch of weird stuff lol

NuSix32 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I think it is #2 that is the real reason. It could possibly break the game if people figured out the inner workings of the game. At the competitive level a deep knowledge of the game is a good thing, however too deep a knowledge in a video game could break it. If you've ever watched a game speedrun, though spectacular, some runs make the game not even seem like the same game anymore.

It's dangerous if players learn certain things in your game.

The most I'd do in Sandbox would be dicking about with a bunch of weird stuff lol

There's a lot of other small things that Riot does to raise my suspicions about number 1 -- but I'm up-voting you for reading my post and giving a good reply. :)

Anrui4 votes

I don't think Riot is some evil company trying to hold players down for more profit. I try not to buy into the whole "Riot is evil" stuff. After reading your post, I can understand why they might not want to implement sandbox mode. I have never felt like Riot was trying to hold me below gold, nor do I do currently as a Silver player.

I don't think that once someone hits, say gold that they are just going to quit playing the game. To be honest, the higher you move up the ranks the more addicting the game gets in my opinion. Example, you hit gold your mind goes, "Maybe I'll be able to hit plat." and etc etc. All the way up to, "Maybe I can be a pro player!" I feel like people at lower levels are more likely to stop playing the game than those at higher skill levels.

Candyria1 votes

I want a sandbox because Mage fortune! and Top Lane Annie! and all these other things that people dodge queue for when you mention it.

Anrui2 votes

Nearly anything that can solo lane is viable top lane. That's the thing about top lane. You can play pretty much anything that floats your boat and be fine. I've played Lux top lane before and did great.

Xighor9 votes

I do not think this way of thinking is actually right. Nobody is going to force you to learn a specific interaction / mechanic if you are a beginner. There is no focus on that in low elo, at least not that I noticed. This feature would be catered to needs of more experienced players / enthusiasts / pro players and semi-pro / wannabes as well as coaches. These are the people who benefit most from the sandbox mode (depending on the implementation and possibilities of such a mode). An ability to test out not only simple champion interactions but economy, power spikes, calculating DPS and allowing us to make easy changes in itemization for controlled champions and dummy champions... This is not something you can actually do in a normal/ranked game. Comparing few builds within various scenarios and against specific opponents can take ages and you are barring this possibility for a lot of people interested in that kind of interesting things.

I believe the sandbox mode would promote rational and educational approach for League of Legends and encourage conscious growth of a player with foundations not only in experience but in knowledge as well. An ability to pilot a plane for hours in a closed and controlled environment of a simulator has benefits nobody can deny.

If you are worried about new players presented with this expectation, there are ways to restrict the access to the sandbox mode. As it's benefits would be most helpful for more experienced summoners, you can expect a player to complete a number of games before the mode is available.

What I am trying to say here is, there are ways to get around the issues you presented. I believe you can actually make this work with that much of experience in sculpting the community and player interactions, because I feel this would be the barrier here, not anything else.

Please reconsider this feature as you should need to cater to the needs of minority from time to time and I actually believe this feature provides us with the greatest tool to work on these little details that matter.

SwapShadows8 votes

It's pretty obvious as to how much better sandbox is for practicing than a normal game.

You could potentially master an entire champions kit just by using it in 1 sandbox game and apply it in a real game.

ex: spam alistars combos over and over until you perfect them

DomainSpecific8 votes

lol mods just removed the Reddit thread.

Jesus is Savior6 votes

{quoted}

lol mods just removed the Reddit thread.

That's funny, because when I emailed a couple Riot devs about HUD issues they said "pls use Reddit and boards, don't email us"

Looks like I'll be emailing them from now on, and blaming the Reddit mods :^)

Dulu8 votes

Great, so every time a new champ or new skin is released, they can just jump into a ranked match.. but heaven forbid they are even allowed to practice in a sandbox environment.

World of Warcraft had similar hesitations about adding the Target Dummies, so players could practice their DPS rotations. Eventually they caved, and exactly what Riot predicts is what happened. Players are "expected" to be able to perform X dps. And now they have an avenue to practice it.

Really, it made players better, and it took a lot of frustration away from raid leaders (ranked in our case), because it cut back on the number of retards substantially.

Tristyric7 votes

It'd probably be better if they just came out and said "we weren't interested in this mode or spending resources to develop it". It might piss a bunch of people off to hear it but at least they'd have some respect for being up front about it. Its fine to admit they aren't interested in creating this mode but don't try to sugar coat it with a half thought out gloss over in a blog post, that just seems condescending to the player base in general.

Risurin7 votes

"We can't have sandbox mode because people might practice too hard and get better than other people." - Riot 2015

Dr Poro6 votes

While I disagree with them, I do see their point.

In a world where you can effectively train your skills by doing it over and over again, people will do this instead of just playing games. If EVERYONE ELSE does it this way, except you, well... You're at a disadvantage because it's the more effective way to get better.

However, I think a large portion of the player base isn't really competitive enough to spend their time doing boring exercises instead of playing games. It will probably hit the higher tier players way more than the low tier ones. Becoming diamond or master will become more difficult without doing some sandbox training yourself, but probably not for gold, atleast, not significantly.

FarRockBF6 votes

100% an excuse.

"Hey guys let's not learn how to hold a gun first - jump into battle, you'll figure it out!"

'#RitoLogic

Mr Trash Panda 4 votes

Smite has custom game options such as starting gold. creep spawn, starting player level.

Doesnt screw up the game. promotes item practice. instantly build your late game items. 5 minutes.

League of Legends. custom game option include level selection, player number.

takes time to farm/kill/ move around to stop minions and bots from destroying towers. takes 20+ minutes to reach enough gold to have 4 complete items.

Finalreqy4 votes

Urf mode is already like a thing, and has been done, its been coded, let players make it in a custom game. Done.

Bonly4 votes

Yeah, you know how many times Riot has changed the jungle? One jungle route practice takes 2 minutes + load screen + 30 seconds just to run. I already have to grind this because I WANT TO BE GOOD AT THIS GAME and despite the time requirements, practicing these routes in a real game takes 20 minutes before the team can surrender. How does providing a sandbox mode and shortening the already required grind force me to grind? It doesn't. I wanted to learn Rumble. It takes an hour to practice his ult 50 times. I used that entire hour. I was forced to do it because I didn't want to lose 5 games in order to get that practice.

So, allowing me to more efficiently practice is NOT making me grind. It would remove the grind.

iainB854 votes

Yea, overall the tone and direction of the post was good (finally a solid answer on Replays, and an apology) -- but this comment was just plain dumb.

That's like telling sports players they cannot run specific plays to practice them -- they have to do all out scrims for practice, because the only way to learn is to play full games.

This is garbage logic Riot, and I strongly hope you reconsider.

Sorioku4 votes

Yeah this is stupid. I hope they're trolling us.

MohawkBird3 votes

What they fuck do they mean by "grinding" sandbox mode. That really makes no sense to me. If they consider players practicing specific mechanics (examples: insec play, wall jumps, Azir's shuffle) then they are really way out of their minds. Practicing mechanics is NOT grinding.

RellikDloc3 votes

Yea Seriously! No we don't want you to practice by yourself and get good then go played ranked. We want you to just play ranked and fail. WTF! Sandbox Mode is an excellent idea. I should be able to go on this game and buy a few items and pick my level and practice what I want to do, instead of waiting 30mins to do exactly what i want, Like testing out different item combos. But nooo they want me to wait around 20 mins. to get the items just to spend a few mins. trying them and then wait another 10mins to save up enough to test out the next combos. Ridiculous!!

23908145_DEL3 votes

They want you to get better in live matches. Eat or be eaten honestly.

pirateninj43 votes

Is anyone surprised by what they say about stuff anymore? They don't give a sh*t about you or what you want. They just want you to keep buying skins and new champs and pretend that the worlds are a good representative of the game in general.

EDWARD ELRlC1 votes

So what I got from this was, hey lets flame riot for letting the community know about why it is they dont feel like a sandbox is necessary. As helpful as a sandbox would be in a few situations, it would create toxic players when anyone has a poor game. It would also be used as a way to pressure new players into having to use the resource. The reason riot gives is very plausible. I think Riot Pls is actually something players have asked for, which is explanations on why riot does something. I think we should see how it plays out instead of being so quick minded

Jesus is Savior7 votes

{quoted}

it would create toxic players when anyone has a poor game. It would also be used as a way to pressure new players into having to use the resource.

I get told to "uninstall" or "go play normals" in high gold/low plat ranked games.

Adding a sandbox mode isn't going to change anything rofl. Toxics will still be toxic.

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