Lee Sin will never be meaningfully nerfed by Riot or…

Shenron · 2014-07-14T23:04:11.662Z

Thank you riot for giving me back the thread! It means a lot! First we can take their responses from this thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4686014 And then we can take into account what has been said on Morello's twitter about not nerfing him because of public outcry in defense of him. What does that leave us with? It leaves us with knowing that Riot is scared of altering Lee Sin in any meaningful way that will take him out of the #1 Jungler spot in the game. Riot doesn't know what would happen if they nerfed the one champion holding back 80% of jungle champions from excelling in their game and so they refuse to touch him. They must figure that Lee Sin keeping all those champions out of the competitive scene must make for a pretty easy to balance competitive scene because Riot then just has to cycle the other top junglers to the Lee Sin bar and then back below the Lee Sin bar to make it look like they are actually working on the problem as a whole. We've seen this before with FotM jungle champions. Nasus, Voli, Kha'zix, Rengar, Nocturne, Pantheon, etc. Every champion that has been able to hold a candle to Lee Sin in the competitive scene has been nerfed and are back into being unusable. Riot will NEVER nerf him into being weaker than any other jungler. He will always be the mobility king, the smite stealing king, the invasion king, and an expert in towerdiving and relocating enemy champions. He has everything a jungler and indeed a bruiser wants with ZERO downsides. The only thing that he doesn't have that would make him stronger, is ranged auto attacks. There was a post in the aforementioned thread that I linked by Ghostcrawler stating that energy costs could be increased to make him weaker. This is the wrong way to go down. Energy costs do not fix the problem that is Lee Sin's kit. His problem is that there is absolutely no counterplay to anything he does. The rework that Riot had slated for the PBE for him many months ago fixed this problem. It gave him clear weaknesses but many people complained because while it gave him more weaknesses it didn't give him any "compensation buffs" which in my opinion are the dumbest things I've ever head of and should ONLY be implemented if you are taking a slightly stronger than normal champion and changing it to a slightly weaker than normal champion, then compensation buffs are a good way to balance that out. Riot will forever continue to have Lee Sin be the jungler bar because he "feels good to play and make plays on" while they ignore the fact that while yes, he can be used in high elo for some pretty epic plays, he is also absurdly safe and easy to pick up on. The champion has an absurdly low skill floor, if it was any lower we would have to dig underneath the Garen foundation to find it. He simply has no drawbacks and Riot refuses to rework him into having any because of peer pressure. I know this post is rambling and I'm sorry, but Riot needs to fix this problem. Don't just stick it on the "Soon(TM)" back burner and use the competitive scene and Worlds as your reasoning. Man up and start working on him. Xelnath, good man imo but wrong, stated that nerfing or reworking Lee Sin this close to Worlds would be the equivalent to the Trinity Force changes before S3 Worlds. This is completely incorrect. Trinity Force changes impacted the game FAR harder than any single champion change or rework ever could because it is an item, and anyone can build an item. Worse yet, it was a staple item on many champions. So do not compare Lee Sin changes to Trinity Force changes. It will not impact the meta, it will free up a large selection of champion picks, and it will just free up a ban if nothing else. He is a champion, not an item. If he's not picked or banned in the game, he won't impact the game. Stop using this logic Xelnath, I know you are smarter than this, I've read and absorbed your other threads, please stop trying to make this comparison work. In short, Riot won't nerf Lee Sin because he will free up champion picks in the competitive scene and Riot will then be forced to attempt to balance them and they will be forced to deal with people crying about losing their blind monk. Riot continues to back up this reasoning with logic such as "Lee Sin has no weaknesses that we can use to make him weaker and we don't like to just invent weaknesses" and "Lee Sin being changed so close to Worlds would invalidate months of practice and expertise, much like the Trinity Force changes before S3 Worlds did" Riot's logic never ceases to infuriate me.

NaelarstraszJul 15, 20145 votes

You know, things happen in balance in patches. Uh oh, Sivir starts blowing everything up. Better nerf her! But with Lee Sin able to do the same thing and fly under the radar... Err... I can't-... I don't understand what the game company is doing anymore. Lee Sin has been OP for as long as I've played. While other champions have dipped in and out, some dip in then are crushed forever. Hell, Urgot has been crushed since before I've got into the game. Still crushed. What is Riot doing!? :(

ThalesJul 15, 20142 votes

I have a very strong suspicion that those will have a larger impact than most believe (we're already seeing a shift in solo queue play, but competitive is actually quite slow on the uptake)

I'm inclined to agree with this. I'm actually a bit surprised you went with as huge of a game systems change as you did with Quill Coat so soon before Worlds. Do you think you'll have enough time to adjust the effects accordingly, or might Worlds end up being Rammus vs. Maokai every game?

I'm unsure if there are solid answers here and going for a democratic voice results in the loudest voice, maybe not the best one for game health.

Democratic voice tends to damn champs who can do the flashiest plays, because those are the ones you remember. Sona will never be perceived as OP, because she can't do anything as flashy as Blitz-hooking the enemy carry over a wall, or Lanterning out a caught teammate. Mobility is the most visible form of power, so it gets disproportionately hated.

TiropatJul 16, 20142 votes

I would love to see A Rammus or Maokai in worlds

ShenronJul 15, 20149 votes

For me, the question that comes after is there seems to be a strong opinion (in this passionate thread) that players would much rather us completely thrash Lee Sin so that he's out of the way, rather than creating a sustainable design decision that creates weaknesses but doesn't just cram him into D-tier. Is Lee Sin healthier for the game when he doesn't exist at B, A, or S tier? If Lee Sin gets nerfed, do we get Elise, Evelynn, Rengar, and Jarvan IV in all games? Does that point to a systemic problem with aggro-junglers focused on early game? Is the game objectively better to play and watch when Volibear is jungling, or Lee Sin? I'm unsure if there are solid answers here and going for a democratic voice results in the loudest voice, maybe not the best one for game health.

I think its more that Lee Sin has been a staple since his release that is what has caused the community to dislike seeing him. From what I gathered, people don't want him to be trashed, they want him to be brought into a reasonable state of balance to where he doesn't push out other junglers, but rather is on an even playing field with them. If Elise and Evelynn are then launched up to the forfront, well, their kits have more weaknesses and counterplay than Lee Sin's which has zero and those weaknesses and counterplay can be expanded upon to weaken them.

Lee Sin's proposed rework from months ago solved this problem and imo, was the best solution Riot could've come up with, I was sad to see it get shelved.

Earl EulrichJul 15, 20147 votes

Lee Sin's proposed rework from months ago solved this problem and imo, was the best solution Riot could've come up with, I was sad to see it get shelved.

yea, i really agree...the rework/shift looked very promising, it´s such a shame you gave in to the tears of a minority.

Evelyn EndwiseJul 15, 20141 votes

[deleted]

Earl EulrichJul 15, 20142 votes

I personally enjoy his passive immensely...it gives him a very nice flow weaving in auto-attacks between spell-circles, really one of the few things that makes the difference between real good lees and "alright" lees.

Earl EulrichJul 15, 20142 votes

Is Lee Sin healthier for the game when he doesn't exist at B, A, or S tier?

as long as elise, eve and vii stay untouched probably not...

But I know from my perspective the game would be much better if Yasuo wouldn´t exist.

StephenizgodJul 15, 20143 votes

I do not want to see Lee Sin trashed, he is a powerful champion and absolutely needs to remain powerful. The problem is how powerful he is compared to other and how easy he is to pick up. My first game ever with him ended up in a loss sure, but i was such a force to be reckoned with that i gave the enemy a fight they would never forget... my first time ever with him, i picked up on his skills quickly. Ive seen first-hand similar stories with friends and their first times as Lee Sin, one of my friends carried the game on his first time and every game after with him.

For a new player Lee Sin is not the easiest champ to pick up, but for someone who knows the game, has seen what he can do, knows what to build on a champ like him, he becomes as easy as Garen or Teemo almost and thus we have this very powerful very easy to use Champ rampaging in every game. This is where the hate comes in, his overwhelming power that allows no counterplay, is readily available and is seen too often in games.

If possible the only change id like for Lee Sin is for him to be harder to use, so that you need lots of practice and skill to use him, beyond playing 100-200 games and seeing how others use him. When i first started he was amazing i loved seeing his plays, now i avoid him at all costs. That should not be the case for any champion, no champion should be a universal ban.

Angry MonsterJul 15, 201410 votes

Your story proves that he needs to be trashed. Skill required sure but no real gates early game, and no risk for that amount of power.

StephenizgodJul 15, 20142 votes

No no no no my story does not prove he needs to be trashed! Yes i did well but i couldnt use him good enough to win the game, i couldnt make the big plays and i didnt always do the right combos. What im saying is i picked up on his skills well enough to be a dominating force for awhile with no previous experience using him.

Lane BroJul 15, 20143 votes

He does require 100-200 games, as much as you think you know how to use him you are not using him at his 100% when you first start playing him. Probably only scraped his potential. But the fact that he is strong enough for you to notice on your first game, shows something.

StephenizgodJul 15, 20142 votes

Yes, by no mean am i a master Lee Sin player, in fact overall ive decided im quite bad with him compared to what he can do. The problem was how well i was doing so quickly without ever using him before, only using what knowledge i had of the game and what i have seen. I do not think it should be so easy to use Lee Sin, he needs to be one of those champs you need to spend a long long time mastering. Not a champion anyone who can place a ward and hit buttons well should destroy with.

AquaeJul 15, 20142 votes

"...he becomes as easy as Garen or Teemo" This sentence makes no sense. I'm a high diamond jungler, and Lee Sin is NOT easy to use. He requires substantial mechanical skill to use, and you are required to maintain that level of performance for the entire game in order to be relevant. I only pick Lee when I'm feeling alert/awake, and very focused one the game because I know if I'm not I'll be utterly useless.

"...no champion should be a universal ban." (This makes it sound like you're talking about Kassadin more than anything else.) Again, I'm gonna have to call you out here, Lee is NOT a universal ban by any stretch of the imagination, he draws about a 40% ban rate, which is on the high side for sure, but not enough that he needs a rework so that he is "harder to use", which is the only way you could feasibly achieve that.

"...one of my friends carried the game on his first time and every game after with him." I'm just calling bullshit on that. Not even challenger players can carry every game, regardless of who they're on. Your entire post has been grossly exaggerating his power vs. skill curve.

I would say Lee shouldn't have the way his kit works touched, though he could use the Renekton treatment: Move some of his power around so he's less oppressive early, and slightly more influential later. Early jungle pressure from high-impact junglers like Lee, Elise, and Evelynn is part of what's making the meta so stale right now, keeping their kits in-tact so they are still fun to play while moving some power around seems like the perfect solution to the issue.

TrozersJul 16, 20141 votes

I am also a high diamond jungler and I agree with every point that Magus Godspawn made.

"Lee Sin is NOT easy to use. He requires substantial mechanical skill to use, and you are required to maintain that level of performance for the entire game in order to be relevant. I only pick Lee when I'm feeling alert/awake, and very focused one the game because I know if I'm not I'll be utterly useless. " - Magus Godspawn

Lee Sin is only stronger than the other early pressure junglers in the top 1% of the player base. This is because he has the strongest early game and a higher skill cap. Vi, Elise and Evelynn are much easier to play, and are also complete monsters. Early on, they have less mobility and slightly less dueling power, but they scale much harder into late game and team fights. In 5v5 team fights Lee sin is easily shut down by CC and runs out of energy way too fast.

If riot were to nerf Lee Sin, he would become trash in everything other than in challenger, where players would be forced to play optimally and land every Q just to keep on par with the other strong junglers. The only possible healthy change to Lee Sin would be to nerf his early game and buff his late game. This would bring him down to par with the other junglers at diamond/challenger level play. They could slightly nerf his base ad or his base skill damage. To compensate, make his energy costs lower per level.

MrBuffingtonJul 15, 20141 votes

First, thank you so much for this response, I learned a lot from it.

Second, I was wondering if you think Lee Sin even needs to be nerfed (especially in a 'meaningful way' as this thread brought up)? I don't play Lee Sin, I personally have no stake in the matter if he were nerfed into the ground, but I honestly don't see him as as big a problem as a lot of people. Sure, I've played with a lot of good Lee Sins, but I've played with many, many bad ones (and more often than not ones who think they're better than they are, maybe do okay early then just rage for the rest of the game. If there was one change to be made, it's for a name change to Lee Salt: Most Toxic Champion in the Universe).

Thirdly, I was wondering if you could comment on the direction/approach to the Jungle that Riot is looking towards? It seems like currently there is an emphasis on bringing up tanky/utility junglers to compete with the early/aggro junglers, I'm just curious because the Jungler is in a unique position where they can affect every lane in the game, in a way giving the most power/responsibility to the jungler in terms of game outcome (all other things being equal). I guess the fear too is (and this will probably never be the case, but just a bit of straw maning to make a point) that junglers will be powerful to the point where the lanes are just freeze farming, waiting until the jungler makes a play before doing anything. It's just worrying that the jungler will be too big a pivot point for the game, and I'm just curious about the ways Riot is making sure that the Jungler doesn't have overwhelming influence on the game. Thanks again!

RiotPWYFFJul 15, 20149 votes

You raise some really good points across the board. For your first Lee Sin point, I'm pretty sure his high strengths are what make him so inhibitive as a champion, which is a super problem we face when we look at champions who are iconic for their strength. Kayle is a good example here where she's being picked non-stop because she's so damn good at everything. It's a weird knife's edge conundrum here.

For Lee Sin, his strength goes: insane early game pressure, high mobility, high damage, versatile kit. When we first looked to change Lee Sin (hello rework), we got a ton of pushback because nobody saw those as insane strengths. There's some argument that we nerfed certain champions so Lee was inevitably the best, but Elise is also close to 100% priority and she got some reductions along the way as well. We haven't touched Evelynn. We buffed Jarvan IV. Rengar was broken due to a bug with double-proccing on-hit effects so we'll see how our changes affect him. The only major jungler threat we really touched was Kha'Zix and, to a lesser degree, Pantheon (bugfix delight). Kha'Zix might exist as a jungler in a world without the top tier junglers, and I still think Pantheon is waiting to get in there.

Regardless, we did back down on those because if the community backlash is so strong to a change, you do have to wonder who's out of touch. It's one thing to be a design team so confident in your changes that you're immune to feedback, but we pride ourselves on our feedback loop and listening to players. This is a core attribute to us and one we value inherently. Sometimes I wonder if we should engineer favorable situations to change contentious champions before doing so (oh man wouldn't that be funny).

Regardless, I think Lee Sin is actually problematic for competitive play, I'm less convinced for less than diamond level play. He's played with tradeoffs at a lot of levels, but I'd also agree he has very few risks for being such a "high risk" champion.

As for the jungle itself, I think we have a significant problem in the game where players dislike losing "carry" agency. In an ideal world I don't think we want a specific guy who's gonna be like "you win or lose on me." All champions should express skill and should equally contribute to a game being won. We talk about wanting junglers to carry from the jungle, I think we meant that we wanted the potential for junglers to have the strategical niche wherein a team can create a "jungle-carry" oriented comp. Protect the Yi? Maybe that's a little idealistic given the scenario of the game. Regardless, I think in an ideal world we can see multiple 'styles' of junglers, but that they don't get picked in a silo. Instead, they're chosen to support and collaborate with a cohesive team strategy. Maokai for a protect the Kog comp, maybe Elise for a pick 'n roll comp, maybe Lee Sin for an early aggro comp, etc.

MrBuffingtonJul 15, 20143 votes

Thank you again for your response!

I'm wondering if you think Lee Sin is having trouble similar to LeBlanc/Kassadin, too (where it seems like their themes are sort of troubling for the game). LeBlanc and Kassadin are supposed to be highly mobile assassins, which is very difficult for most champions to deal with; at the same time, it's difficult to change this because that's who these champions are. Lee Sin is supposed to have very high early game pressure in addition to high mobility, so I feel like a lot of his strengths are natural and warranted (at least in a vacuum). It's a little different I guess, because LeBlanc and Kassadin's mobility is also tied to their damage output in a pretty significant way, where Lee Sin has sort of a designated damage spell (Q) and escape (W) (unless you're inSec-ing around) (plus LeBlanc must either use ult or go back to where she W-ed from, and Kassadin has a cooldown between ult casts, where Lee Sin doesn't, you can case W before you even land the second part of your Q. Also Lee Sin doesn't have long-term limits on mobility due to him using Energy instead of Mana).

I'm wondering too if you think there is a great focus on Lee Sin play because of tradition? I'm not suggesting this be done, but I'm wondering how far Lee Sin could be nerfed before people stop playing him. In my personal experience, there were a lot of champions that had sharp declines in popularity post nerf/reworks (Riven and Kha'Zix are two that come to mind). At the same time, it seems a bit odd to say Lee Sin is a 'safe' pick (ie. would be a good measuring stick), sort of how Orianna is in mid lane (at professional level, at least). It's as you said, he seems to have too little risk for the reward he offers.

On a related note, I'm wondering if y'all ever looks at balancing for a specific level of play, and how that may work, since it seems very difficult. I suppose one way is gating with difficult mechanics (for example, Syndra and Orianna are very popular at professional levels, but I seldom see either at my elo), but I've also heard many talk about League being more strategy focused than mechanic focused, as such most champions aren't meant to be incredibly mechanic intensive.

Regardless, I think in an ideal world we can see multiple 'styles' of junglers, but that they don't get picked in a silo. Instead, they're chosen to support and collaborate with a cohesive team strategy.

I'm wondering if now the direction you're taking is to try to make each one of these comps equally/situationally viable? It sounds like this could be an interesting rock-paper-scissors sort of thing, except where scissors can beat rock if you know how to use them well enough? It always does seem disappointing when people say that a team already won in champion select, though. I guess I'm wondering where the balance is in making team comps that are very powerful and work well while still making them have meaningful weaknesses that can be played around (so you have to put your opponent in a position to play on your terms, and not just simply overpower them).

Sometimes I wonder if we should engineer favorable situations to change contentious champions before doing so (oh man wouldn't that be funny).

Sometimes I wonder if y'all are actually doing this :P. Honestly, I would probably applaud your success, since the game has gotten so complex it seems really difficult to fully engineer something like this and succeed (not sure about you, but I never thought solo-lane Soraka would make it into professional play).

Cheers!

PhailRaptorJul 15, 20145 votes

For me, the question that comes after is there seems to be a strong opinion (in this passionate thread) that players would much rather us completely thrash Lee Sin so that he's out of the way, rather than creating a sustainable design decision that creates weaknesses but doesn't just cram him into D-tier. Is Lee Sin healthier for the game when he doesn't exist at B, A, or S tier? If Lee Sin gets nerfed, do we get Elise, Evelynn, Rengar, and Jarvan IV in all games? Does that point to a systemic problem with aggro-junglers focused on early game? Is the game objectively better to play and watch when Volibear is jungling, or Lee Sin? I'm unsure if there are solid answers here and going for a democratic voice results in the loudest voice, maybe not the best one for game health.

To this I would raise the counterpoints of Urgot, Poppy, and pre-rework Eve. These are all champions who's kits have game-warping potential when good, and required volleys of nerfs to prevent them from seeing play. Why is this approach ok for these champions, but Lee Sin gets to be Riot's golden boy, who can do no wrong?

I also find it interesting that, now that she's starting to see a (slightly) rising play rate, Poppy's rework has suddenly become hinted at far ahead of previously estimated schedule.

RiotPWYFFJul 15, 201412 votes

Honestly? Because Lee Sin is part of a pantheon of early aggro junglers and isn't single-handedly warping the game. He's doing something as part of a group, which typically speaks to systemic issues than anything else. We took a strong look at Elder Lizard and tried there, then we looked at tanky junglers and tried there. Now we're just looking at those early aggro junglers.

Urgot, Poppy, and pre-rework Eve were all single-champion warpers.

Lee Sin isn't a golden boy, but he does have certain healthy mechanics that, if you were to speak about this five months ago, would not have been a problem. There was a lull period where he was being bypassed for other champions, so I dunno if I would accept a hyperbolic "Lee Sin has been best forever" statement.

NaelarstraszJul 15, 20144 votes

http://lol.gamepedia.com/Lee_Sin

Bipassed or not, he is still an issue. He has an appearance in an obnoxious number of places. There's a problem when he's pick/ban in 90%+ of matches.

Chrissxy1989Jul 15, 20143 votes

Is it realy a problem, that Riot created a champ, that is liked by many despite not being the strongest pick? Is it realy a Problem, that there is a champion, that can be played in different ways and in different positions?

NaelarstraszJul 16, 20141 votes

I'd be VERY content with a champ that was popular yet not OP. Outclassing the shit out of everything in the game is why he's maintaining 90%+ pick/ban in several tournaments. Right now, all competitive play is just getting the champ that outclasses the hardest.

To be frank, I wouldn't be so mad if like... 50 champs were viable for competitive play. But lately, it's just been... 20? All because a few champs shove the champion pool super hard.

Chrissxy1989Jul 16, 20141 votes

So... You say, Lee Sin is only a problem for competitive gaming? I think, thats a very important statement, noone cares to state at the beginning of their arguing!

Everybody seems to argue as if Lee Sin would outclass everything no matter, what elo. But it looks like that at the end of the day people just want to see more/different champions played in LCS etc. But shouldn't it be just the way, that champions with a very high skillcap are being played in competitive games? For example: I'm not a great player and everytime i play Yasuo, im usually mediocre and not wrecking faces, like pro players do. But i think, it should be exactly that way! They are playing this game for a living pretty much 24/7. So they are able, to use champs to their full potential, im completely fine, that those champs become very strong . Same applies (in my oppinion) to Lee Sin. If i want to have a good game as a jungler, i prefere to go with J4 or Mao, because i cant miss my R on J4 or my w on Mao. Granted. I can't do exactly the same stuff, good players can do with Lee Sin, but i pretty much can't mess up my initiation.

And to come back to your statement. I'm wondering: Usually people are complaining, if Riot balances the game around LCS etc. And now (following your argument), they are all complaining, that Riot isn't nerfing one champ, just because he is (in your oppinion) a problem in competitive play? This doesn't make sense to me...

I'm with you reguarding your wish, to see more/different champions being played in the competitive scene. But imo this should not happen by nerfinga a champion, that is fine, how he is...

NaelarstraszJul 17, 20141 votes

I have the luxury of being in Silver, which is pretty much ELO heaven. Everything is viable because no one is fantastic at anything. Though as someone who is doing ranked finally... I'd imagine it pretty... Damning to get into higher ranks, because then, the champ pool shrinks or I will lose incessantly. If I get better, i will be forced to play champs that outclass the others. Lee Sin single handedly outclasses the stock of junglers.

I have a problem with several champs. Renekton, Braum, Thresh... I'll get around to bitching about them too. But there's only two ways that the meta can be damaged into allowing more champs to be present.

Nerf the ones that outclass everything, or bring the underclass on par. I don't care what way is taken. Just... SOMETHING. I do NOT want to play ranked with such an atmosphere... "Play this or lose". That's how it will end up being if Riot doesn't change things. it's how it's been for those who have been up there. Riot Shoutcasters even say it...

Though back to lee Sin in particular. He's been doing this since release. I'm glad to see his patch history has been he's gotten a lot of nerfing, but it has to speak volumes when... Through all this nerfing, he's managing a 90% pick/ban rate in tournaments. Then, when you compare him to other champs, he has everything up over them to explain why.

The pros pick the outclassiest of champs to win. They HAVE to in order for their living to work. It's reasonable. So your second best has moderate damage until mid game, has good clear speed of jungle, a root that can cause people to get killed with surrounding teammates, and a moment of invulnerability+drop on another enemy mob to escape.

Now you have Lee Sin... High Damage early game, moderate damage mid game, lower damage late game, Attack Speed boost, Resource regen, Dash-To-Enemy, Dash-To-Ally, Lifesteal, spellvamp, Aoe Damage+TrueSight, Movement Speed+Attack Speed slow, Knockback-onPrimary+Mimicked-Ult-damage+Knock up.

If you're going to give a champ that much utility, he can't be having Ratio's that allow him to just build one damage item for damage and blow up early game on the enemy team if they pick ANYTHING besides the second or third best. Your Jungler pool is super small at his hand alone. Either the removed junglers get put on his level, or he gets put on their level. :(

On concession, I do NOT want to see Lee Sin removed from play utterly. I'm only evil enough to see him on par with the rest. His damage power has to exist. If he's early game, his damage power shouldn't be ending at 40 minutes... It should be ending at 25 minutes in if he didn't snowball. He's a utility ball, not a wrecking ball.

(Pardon any rants. I just despair at the thought of getting into higher ELO's with this meta thing going on...)

Angry MonsterJul 15, 20147 votes

Just cause the player base did not know how to insect in season 2 does not mean that Lee was not to strong. It means that people were not using his kit correctly cause he had to much strength and could brute force everything.

Guess what he can still brute force the whole game. A lee that is rolling the early game does not build tank. He build damage and continues to execute people left and right. Lee can easily do a 1000 points of damage with just his ult if built to burst

I am amazed at the different messaging i seeing from pwyff. Most of Riot admit that he is a problem(at most elos) and this red is saying he may not be a real issue. Waiting for this riot member to say but his win rate is dropping (when other say win rates do not matter.) The reason why his win rate is dropping is cause everyone is playing him to brute force games. The unskilled are playing badly and messing with numbers that show how strong lee really is. This is what happens with flavor of the month champs.

RiotPWYFFJul 15, 20146 votes

This is where I come back to perceived strength versus objective strength. Just because people can or cannot Insec doesn't extend so far as to say "If you can't Insec but are still winning as Lee Sin, you are winning with suboptimal play and that indicates Lee Sin is overtuned."

I'm not denying that Lee Sin has consistently been strong in the game throughout all levels of play (see certain pro player complaints that Lee Sin shouldn't be touched because he fits into all metas and is the most balanced etc), but league is about rewarding skill in a number of ways - positioning, decision making, mechanical skill, leadership, adaptability. Just because most Lee players didn't understand the Insec plays doesn't mean they weren't using him effectively, it just means they were using him differently. I really push back when you say "oh he was accomplishing all this, and he wasn't used to his full potential!" because emergent gameplay speaks to new heights, not untapped potential.

At the end of the day, we believe Lee Sin is strong and are looking at him, but to say he's a singular force that's warping the entirety of the early jungle, I disagree because there exists a whole slew of early aggro junglers that we need to look at.

KoboldJul 16, 20142 votes

I'm not denying that Lee Sin has consistently been strong in the game throughout all levels of play (see certain pro player complaints that Lee Sin shouldn't be touched because he fits into all metas and is the most balanced etc), but league is about rewarding skill in a number of ways - positioning, decision making, mechanical skill, leadership, adaptability. Just because most Lee players didn't understand the Insec plays doesn't mean they weren't using him effectively, it just means they were using him differently. I really push back when you say "oh he was accomplishing all this, and he wasn't used to his full potential!" because emergent gameplay speaks to new heights, not untapped potential.

What I bolded here is why he pushes other champs out of the jungle. He works with all metas and team Comps and that is a reason for concern as why pick someone else when you can pick lee sin, and if the enemy picks lee you just go with your planed comp's backup jungler. Last year you (Riot Games) said you dont want a jack of all trades champion to exist and you were making changes and reworks to avoid those types of champions.

Some people say thats what makes him perfectly balanced, But if that was the case we would see more jungle diversity as he should be sub-optimal compared to other champs for a team comp but instead we see that he is picked ore and more which leads us to why he is picked all the time, and that is his ability to be in any role as the jungler being he can pickup on the tanky side if his top is losing and he loses nothing or if his bot is having it rough he can be build more damage and still retain a large amount of tanky presence with how his kit and stats are.

Phoenix Kotori Jul 16, 20141 votes

I also find it interesting that, now that she's starting to see a (slightly) rising play rate, Poppy's rework has suddenly become hinted at far ahead of previously estimated schedule.

Well Morello did say Poppy would face nerfs or rework if she ever actually became a standard or competitive pick due to her ult.

Salty WaifuJul 15, 20141 votes

I dont get how evelynn is an early aggro jungler?

Eve loses half her health just doing the red camp.

Earl EulrichJul 15, 20142 votes

Eve has one of the best cleartimes in the game, and if you don´t just facetank the buffs you won´t drop that much...and early aggro means they heavily influence the laningphase/can bully other junglers around (which eve can do quite well if she can make use of her stealth advantage), which usually is 10-20min into the game.

XyltinJul 15, 20142 votes

The problem that I see with Lee and Riot is the statement "giving champs meaningful weaknesses without touching their characteristic strengths".

Lees strengths:

High mobility due to Q and W
High base dmg and early game power due to Q and R
Good defensive values and sustain due to W and his base stats (probably the first point where he could get nerfed easily)
Being able to be played as a full assassin or tanky utility champ late game (so you can not nerf his dmg, nor his survivability and definitely not his utility and CC).

Riot needs to cut something away from lee or nerf him directly. When you want to cut something away, you can buff another spot, and I think the AS buff on his passive was definitely the right spot for a slight buff.

His W survivability and mobility is a spot where Riot can definitely hit him. Only give the shield to the target he charges at (if it is a champion). No more double shield. Remove the sustain and give him some defensive stats for 3 seconds (Armor/MR) to force him into a better timing instead of healing up in the jungle faster than any other champ. You could also nerf the range. The nerf that would do the most, but would never get through, is to remvoe the ward hopping. It would force Lee to actually flank the enemy and get in with his Q. But it is already way too deap in his kit and the players heads to actually remove it.

His Q should also have a meaningful weakness. Currently the costs are low, the CD gets pretty low and the dmg, scaling and execute dmg are great. The risk is nearly 0, because you can always land it and decide to not go in (What is one of Vi's weaknesses, especially if she wants to lane: Once her Q is charged, she has to decide to go in or not, and if she misses, a lot of dmg and CC got dodged while she stands right next to you without that much dmg left). How can you make the desicion more important?

reduce the extra cast range of the second Q tp +100 down from +200. Now Lee would have to chase the enemy more or stick closer to them when he doesn't want to jump in instantly. If an enemy is faster, he now needs to decide in time.
Increase the CD by 3 sec. If Lee's second Q deals dmg, the CD gets reduced by 2.5 sec (the other 0.5 are there as a direct nerf early and to make up for the bit stronger CDR later).

His E: the AS slow is something that a lot of people don't realize, but it is super strong. It is an AOE MS/AS slow with dmg with a good base dmg and AD scaling. Reduce the AS slow to 10-30% (50% of the MS slow). Now deals physical dmg.

R: reduce knockback range to 1000 down from 1200. Reduce the knockup and knockback duration to 0.75 seconds down from 1. Increase the CD to 100/80/60 sec.

I overall do not like most of these changes I suggested. I think that they are nerfs for the sake of bringing lee down, while the problem is actually that his kit and his "characteristic playstyle" that should not get touched involves everything except for being a magic dmg caster (tanky bruiser assassin with high mobility, good sustain and utility with the only weakness being the late game, where you can't be as muc ha bruiser as other champs- what is not a problem due to the W, E and R utility.

The best way for Lee would be a huge change of one of his 3 basic skills and number changes to the others. He needs to lose the offensive (base and scaling) power of Q, the defensive + mobility power of W or the utility from E.

About Eve: Q gives her a very high amount of DPS, while E gives her burst and DPS and W allows her to stick to the enemy jungler, and her passive forces you to spam pink wards. That creates situations where Eve gets ahead a bit and from there on she can force the enemy jungler out of his jungle while also having good ganks. Think about a Maste Yi that has his W, E and R at lvl 3, is invisible and can AA while moving.

Reduce her W stack power. Her W active + R slow need to be enough to chase a target. If not, the enemy deserves to get away. Remove the mana reg on her Passive.

LeeDarkJul 16, 20141 votes

I don't see how it is that difficult, honestly. You remove his ability to safeguard wards, so his positioning requires a little more precise control, and he no longer has the ability to go anywhere he wants alone in complete safety. This nerf can be compensated by making him a little tankier in base stats, possibly. Also, remove the execute damage on Q. Q is meant to get him into a fight, not finish it. This would allow a slight buff to the base damage of Q.

PrivetJul 16, 20141 votes

Lee doesn't require compensation buffs for the nerfs he receives. He already has so much that any compensation buff would defeat the purpose of knocking him off his totem. They need to take some of his strength away to give him a glaring weakness. He has too much and it gives him so much room to make plays happen. Nothing wrong with being a playmaker but when everything in your kit gives you the option to make plays in so many different ways it's a bit overbearing. Considering that other champions don't have this liberty.

LeeDarkJul 17, 20141 votes

Wrong, compensation buffs aren't about making up for the nerfs. They are about emphasizing strengths when the nerfs help define weaknesses. The nerfs I suggest emphasize his ability to initiate a fight while making him less slippery. The buff to tankiness encourages that initiation.

rtbf32770162Jul 16, 20141 votes

Is the game objectively better to play and watch when Volibear is jungling, or Lee Sin?

I don't know about you, but even if I like to play some "early-aggro" junglers, I would like to see more team comp based on a tank in the jungle. I think it should lead to a more teamplay-oriented game.

PrivetJul 16, 20141 votes

Is the game objectively better to play and watch when Volibear is jungling, or Lee Sin?

I don't know about you but I'm sick of seeing the same 30 or so champions being played nearly every game because of either poor itemisation or poor champion balance having clear cut winners over the majority. To answer your question, yes. It is objectively better seeing someone OTHER than the champion I have seen for the last 2 years.

Chrissxy1989Jul 19, 20141 votes

Are you only talking about competitive play, or about your own games too? Because i see many many different champions in my games. it's just LCS, that seems to have a rather small championpool...

PrivetJul 19, 20142 votes

Just have a look at champion pick rates on lolking or any other resource. You will see that there is so many champions in the game that never get picked. There are more champions below a 10% pickrate than there are above and more champions below a 5% pick rate than anything else. This normally wouldn't be an issue if there wasn't the 10 champions getting picked over 25% of the time but the fact that there IS a large amount of champions being picked a substantial amount more is where the problem is coming in.

Chrissxy1989Jul 20, 20141 votes

But imo this is more of a problem, the other champs not being as interesting (OR strong) as the often picked champs. But you can't tell me, a champ, is "op" or anything like that, if he looses so much more often, than wins. Thresh is a bit like Lee i think. He is played a lot in competitive, therefore the players think, he is strong, pick him a lot and then he sits at a 47% winrate (32% popularity). If only those, who can play Lee Sin or Thresh to its fullest potential, would play them, MAYBE we would have to consider nerfing them (again: MAYBE!!!). But just because Froggen can destroy anyone with Anivia, or Wickd is a monster playing Irelia, deosn't mean, we have to nerf those champs down so that the rest of the playerbase can't use them at all? Yes. There are those Lee SIn mains, who can play Lee Sin properly. Just like it is with pretty much any champ. But some are more popular than others (proplay, fun, whatever) and that's (imo) not a problem of those champs, butof the other champs, either not being as good in competitive play or not being fun enough to play or something else. Do you want every champ, to be point and click like Ryze, or should we rather aim at making all champs as interesting, as Thresh or Lee Sin?

And my final note: right now (unless you are challenger), you are more likely to face a "bad" Lee Sin, then to face a "good" one. SO that's in my books not a bad thing, if i want to climb the ladder^^

dog from airbudJul 16, 20142 votes

I'm just wondering, how much do winrates affect your decisions on who to buff and who to nerf? I for one think winrates provide a very strong basis for seeing which champions are too strong and too weak most of the time, however lee sin is very confusing to me because of this. His winrate has been sub-par for ages at this point. it must have sat at 47% for 5 months at least, and recently it's been getting even lower, dipping down to 45-46%(stats from lolking, in pro games I believe he almost exactly at a 50% winrate right now) , however it is almost unanimously agreed upon that lee sin is a very strong champion. I'm honestly just confused about how a champion could make everyone feel like hes overpowered while being in the bottom 15-20% of winrates.

I personally think it shows a serious issue with the design of him. Maybe Lee Sin is overpowered, but if he actually isn't then it shows that he is such a frustrating champion to play against that he feels too strong even when he loses, and I think that's something that riot should really try to avoid.

Lee Sin will never be meaningfully nerfed by Riot or reworked.

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