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Why is it a problem that assassins kill you "in less than 3 seconds" but it's not when mages do it?

HateDaddy··140 votes·8,730 views

I'm not denying that there are bad design cases like Talon where he deletes squishies instantly by pressing buttons on them with no counterplay but there are plenty of mages who still effectively do the same thing from range and delete you in less than 3 seconds. But mages will also bring utility to the table and they do their damage from the safety of range.

I don't mind mages who can be interrupted while they do damage like Malzahar but champions like Annie, Anivia, Ryze, Viktor or anyone who has good synergy with protobelt and can use its active + their spell rotation to gib squishes (Kennen cough cough) walk up to you and kill you instantly and it's not a problem? Many assassins have skill shots just like some of these mages but even if they don't, they have to jump into the middle of a team to do damage and damage is all they bring to the table. Meanwhile, mages still bring ridiculous waveclear and utility to a team and scale much better overall.

I just don't understand the logic when killing you quickly is what assassins are designed to do but now it's a problem but yet this same problem applies to several mages while the level of gameplay is basically identical (limited counterplay) yet it's not a problem. Seems pretty silly.

prepares for downvotes from mages from fog of war

324 Comments

bill8471 votes

Or you could just be Jayce and be both at the same time

Ralanr21 votes

Because SCIENCE, BITCH!!!

WitchKing00718 votes

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/013/034/yeahsciencebitch.PNG

Very Hard Engage61 votes

the justification is they lack mobility, are even squishier, and are gimped in more ways than just mana.

or.... they're skill shot reliant, they miss and do nothing at all, granted tibbers/viktor storm are pretty big, but if they do miss it, they're baked, donzo, no other option but to start running away.

and when a mage fails to kill you they have nothing to fall back on but wait for CD's, target with 1/8th hp is running in a straight line away from you? you flash or use some sums to catch it, an assassin doesn't need to do that.

PermabannedGaren20 votes

{quoted}

the justification is they lack mobility

Kennen item 3152

are even squishier

This is just plainly bullshit.

Talon can barely afford to go a single defense item, and usually still goes full damage. Most AD assassins tend to only have a maw for defense.

Mages have access to RoA, Rylai's, Zhonya's, Abyssal, Protobelt, and more for defense, and can build many of those.

and are gimped in more ways than just mana.

Zed and Rengar are the only assassins that come to mind that lack mana. Most assassins are frankly more mana hungry than mages are since they can't itemize for it.

or.... they're skill shot reliant, they miss and do nothing at all, granted tibbers/viktor storm are pretty big, but if they do miss it, they're baked, donzo, no other option but to start running away.

Syndra

Muh skill shot, press R, get kill.

Also, who gives a shit? Good players hit skill shots. Also, donzo? If Lux misses her Q she is still well beyond most champion's threat radiuses and can just fire it again.

Very Hard Engage5 votes

{quoted}

Kennen item 3152

^ links kennen.

the least likely person to 100-0 you.

HateDaddy45 votes

{quoted}

^ links kennen.

the least likely person to 100-0 you.

are you living under a rock?

Kennen finishes protobelt and gibs your carries lol

CC Mustang9 votes

Can confirm i have been insta gibbed by a hybrid AP tank kennen as an ADC.

SnugglePuggle9414 votes

{quoted}

as an ADC.

Well DUH, you're squishy as fuck. Of course he's going to kill you, you bumbo. Now as for a mage or another assassin, that would be another story.

Lauchmelder5 votes

That's what you have a team for. That's the big downside to mages as well. You can kite around their skillshots.

An assassin flashing into a gapcloser into his ult into a dead carry and getting out because nobody can land a skillshot due to an over the top mobility is different than a mage that has to position himself DURING a fight.

Even if a Syndra just ults me it feels fairer than a fed Zed just Ulting me (including E +Q) and then getting out again. Syndra at least had to risk something to kill you while Zed just used Ghostblade and W to get close and instagib you with low risk.

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zsXgg8um,comment-id=00010001000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-16T21:46:36.045+0000)

That's what you have a team for. That's the big downside to mages as well. You can kite around their skillshots.

An assassin flashing into a gapcloser into his ult into a dead carry and getting out because nobody can land a skillshot due to an over the top mobility is different than a mage that has to position himself DURING a fight.

Even if a Syndra just ults me it feels fairer than a fed Zed just Ulting me (including E +Q) and then getting out again. Syndra at least had to risk something to kill you while Zed just used Ghostblade and W to get close and instagib you with low risk.

That rarely happens in competent elos TBH

I don't deny assassins are by far more pub stompish but in elos where people know how to play, assassins are very underwhelming.

junglerboy164 votes

Until you get to the crazy skill tier of pro and semi-pro play where their mechanics are good enough that they actually capitalize on the skill cap on most assassins (for instance, look at someone like Faker or XPeke's old highlights on Zed).

It's the same with most champs that have that kind of play style where they snowball easily but require either incompetent enemies or excellent mechanics.

The key difference between assassins and mages seems to usually be based around how critical it is to land skills in an instant in addition to landing them in the right sequence. A Viktor who accidentally lands his Q before his E is not nearly as bad off as a Rengar who hits his abilities out of sequence for instance.

Very Hard Engage6 votes

in a 1v1 kennen 100-0's any adc? could you link a video/match history please?

IPromiseTomorrow5 votes

It's on LCS, it's on Low/Mid/High/Challenger ELO aswell...

Really though Kennen is bursty.

Very Hard Engage8 votes

I've been watching, its always a team fight or kennen has widdled them down with Q's and gotten a stun off before hand. you never see kennen chasing after an adc flashing on top of them pressing R to land 1 rotation of all abilities and 100-0 a carry.

you severely misinterpreted what goes on before hand.

IPromiseTomorrow2 votes

Ok so... he can't 100 you but he can poke you pretty safely, Cc you, aoe the entire back line, uses Zhonyas and proto belt to do pretty dumb damage.

I bet a Kennen can still 100-0 an adc with proto belt. If not he'll poke...

Also Kennen craps on melee toplaners that can't poke. He can set up ganks by cc'ing people. He has a speed that really isn't anything to scoff at especially when someone's got no dash.

President Swa1n4 votes

So you admit Kennen doesn't 100-0 you as the discussion was about?

Catastrop3 votes

That's more a problem with Protobelt than Kennen.

Very Hard Engage8 votes

let me show you with math, as to why a kennen with just protobelt cant 100-0 you alone.

kennen is top lane? running tp/flash? has pen reds, ap quints, mr blues, armor yellows.

vs.... caitlyn bot lane? heal/flash? has ad armor, mr.

so 42 MR caitlyn.... takes 70% from magic damage, - 9 kennen magic pen. 33mr, now takes 75% damage from kennens magic attacks.

kennen just has protobelt? hes got 75 total AP and is roughly level 8, maybe 9.

lets assume the support has left the building. caitlyn is alone, just her, shes lower level too because she shares exp. well say 7. so assuming kennen is level 9. and maxes W first like most top kennens do.

hes maxed W, 2 points into Q, 1 point E 1 point R.

thats 115 +75%, 185 + 55%, 85 60%, 3 second, half second ticks, assuming full hits. 80 + (40%) -> (80 (40)) x.75 - > (80 + 40%) x.5, (80 + 40%) x.5 (80 + 40%) x.5 (80 + 40%) x.5 + 112 + 35%

Q 115 + (56.25) + W 185 + (41.25) + E 85 + (45) + R 80 + (30) + 60 + 22.5 + 40 +20, + 40 + 20, + 40 + 20, + 40 + 20

  • protobelt active, at level 9 it does 112 + (26.25)

so lets add it all up.

Q (171.25) W (226.25) E (130) R (432.5) proto belt (138.25)

grand total damage = 1098.25 damage. factor in magic resistance.(x.75) left with 823.6 damage against caitlyn when he blows everything once.

whats caitlyns level 7 hp? 912hp.

823.6 > 912? i dont think so.....

i forgot thunderlords you say? level 9 does 90 + 10% ap 97.5 x.75 = 73.1 823.6 + 73.1 = 896.7

896.7 > 912? still dont think so.

congrats, kennen has failed to 100-0 cait.

#as i've stated, he needs poke before hand to do it, and he needs assistance, he alone cant do it.

all of this is assuming kennen gets in and gets the entire kit off, which he wouldn't, and caitlyn is 2 full levels down and supportless. or cait just pops heal/flash. even leveled? forget about it 1064 hp.

BoilTheOil1 votes

why would he max w

Very Hard Engage9 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Kennen

because its his highest win % max order? it gives him wave clear instead of dueling potential. its what top kennen does so he doesn't get pushed in.

if you want to change Q vs W then it becomes 235 base + 95 (330), vs 115 + 185 (300). a 30 base damage difference an additional 30 base damage would change the outcome and put kennen just over the top. dealing 896.7 + 22.5 = 919.2, > 912. then yes, kennen could 100-0 cait.

have fun in lane. and finding a 2 level down adc.

DeathTheHorseman10 votes

You do realize protobelt if used properly (point blank range) does freaking tons of damage and not the 138 dmg you wanna label it as?

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Hextech_Protobelt-01

Active does 75-150 (based on level) + 35% AP.

There are 7 bolts. If you get hit by more than 1 bolt every other bolt does 20% damage to you. So 6 bolts = double damage

A good kenen would use lightning rush and then protobelt in a way to gap close then hit you with at least 3 bolts (if not 4-5) and pass through you with the rush still active.

That makes the belt damage go over 200 at least if not 250.

_**

Bottom line:

If you are gonna make calculations don't fcking avoid adding the things that prove them wrong.

I am 100% sure you know about the extra bolts damage and chose not to add it because it proves you wrong...

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Spaceman5pff4 votes

He also intentionally avoided listing the W empowered auto, or even any autos.

PermabannedGaren5 votes

{quoted}

let me show you with math, as to why a kennen with just protobelt cant 100-0 you alone.

kennen is top lane? running tp/flash? has pen reds, ap quints, mr blues, armor yellows.

vs.... caitlyn bot lane? heal/flash? has ad armor, mr.

so 42 MR caitlyn.... takes 70% from magic damage, - 9 kennen magic pen. 33mr, now takes 75% damage from kennens magic attacks.

kennen just has protobelt? hes got 75 total AP and is roughly level 8, maybe 9.

lets assume the support has left the building. caitlyn is alone, just her, shes lower level too because she shares exp. well say 7. so assuming kennen is level 9. and maxes W first like most top kennens do.

hes maxed W, 2 points into Q, 1 point E 1 point R.

thats 115 +75%, 185 + 55%, 85 60%, 3 second, half second ticks, assuming full hits. 80 + (40%) -> (80 (40)) x.75 - > (80 + 40%) x.5, (80 + 40%) x.5 (80 + 40%) x.5 (80 + 40%) x.5 + 112 + 35%

Q 115 + (56.25) + W 185 + (41.25) + E 85 + (45) + R 80 + (30) + 60 + 22.5 + 40 +20, + 40 + 20, + 40 + 20, + 40 + 20

  • protobelt active, at level 9 it does 112 + (26.25)

so lets add it all up.

Q (171.25) W (226.25) E (130) R (432.5) proto belt (138.25)

grand total damage = 1098.25 damage. factor in magic resistance.(x.75) left with 823.6 damage against caitlyn when he blows everything once.

whats caitlyns level 7 hp? 912hp.

823.6 > 912? i dont think so.....

congrats, kennen has failed to 100-0 cait.

#as i've stated, he needs poke before hand to do it, and he needs assistance, he alone cant do it.

Why can't Kennen auto attack as part of his combo?

Your protobelt damage assumed he only hit a single bolt. Realistically he would hit more than one. If he hit a total of four it would do 885.8 damage, assuming the rest of your math was right.

I guess he might have to auto attack her like once or twice, lol.

Oh, and you didn't factor in precision's flat magic pen. Nor did you factor in Thunderlord's Decree (I didn't either).

Just TLD would give him an extra 97.5 damage to his combo.

Which, if he hit at least four protobelt procs, would in fact 100-0 her. That's 73.125 damage. And I'm not even factoring in the fact that she'd actually have an effective 27.3 MR, instead of your value of 33. Using your numbers alone, that brings the damage up to 856.635. With TLD, it would be over 932 damage.

Oh... well that would 100-0 her, wouldn't it?

Very Hard Engage4 votes

now you just shaved 15 ap off the whole thing, im not doing it over. you can. hes not using protobelt at a point blank range already on top of her, hes using it to get in in the first place.

additional bots are reduced to 20% effectiveness.

you're assuming a lot of things. like kennen reaches her and doesn't get netted and misses some of his ult procs. or misses the q.

and i even messed up magic pen reds... what kinda mid laner am i, its 7.8, not 9. so cait would take even less.

where are you getting even less MR on caitlyn from. its 42 - 7.8, not 42 - 9 as i did the whole calc with.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

{quoted}

now you just shaved 15 ap off the whole thing, im not doing it over. you can.

you're assuming a lot of things. like kennen reaches her and doesn't get netted and misses some of his ult procs. or misses the q.

What AP did I shave off? I used your assumption of 75 (which it occurs to me is totally bullshit by the way, since Kennen takes natural talent).

You're also not factoring in masteries like double edged sword, assassin, or merciless, which amplify damage dealt.

So I guess the point is that even with your calculations (which mostly just undersold how much damage Kennen would actually be doing) he still came within less than 100 HP of 100-0'ing her, lol.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

you do the whole thing over, show me how its done master. because im still pressing heal. or walking away and laughing while you die under my tower >.>

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

you do the whole thing over, show me how its done master. because im still pressing heal.

Heal won't save you from a late game Kennen friend.

It might save you from a protobelt as his only item Kennen 1v1, but probably not from him plus his friends.

Very Hard Engage3 votes

oh late game kennen? say hello toitem 3031 item 3046 item 3085 item 3102 item 3139

again 2 levels up, and support missing. somehow found an adc alone.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

{quoted}

oh late game kennen? say hello toitem 3031 item 3046 item 3085 item 3102 item 3139

again 2 levels up, and support missing. somehow found an adc alone.

An ADC with that build deals dog shit damage to the enemy front line (which makes them a bad ADC). Or in general, really.

But just for fun, let's assume that Kennen procced Banshee's with his protobelt.

All right, so the ADC would have 147 total MR. Kennen's pen would bring this down to 79.55, which is 0.55 damage reduction. Stacking multiplicatively with the 0.12 from PD brings this to 0.60.

So a Kennen's full combo using the damage I calculated earlier would do 1,425.56, so yeah with a banshee's veil the ADC would indeed survive Kennen's burst.

I mean, they'd be food for the rest of the team and be unable to DPS the front line as effectively as the enemy ADC, but yeah, Kennen couldn't solo kill them.

TFBaam3 votes

go into a game and test it if no one wants to do the math

EndlessSorcerer14 votes

Zed and Rengar are the only assassins that come to mind that lack mana. Most assassins are frankly more mana hungry than mages are since they can't itemize for it.

Zed Rengar Katarina Akali Zed

HateDaddy6 votes

{quoted}

Zed Rengar Katarina Akali Zed

Akali can easily run out of energy if she fucks up Kat relies on resets and being fed Rengar is stupid but he also needs to manage his stacks properly Zed falls off like a rock

ReZisT Lust16 votes

falls off like a rock on the adcs head lel

ReZisT Lust4 votes

item 3056 i build on my assassins

Mouse5348 votes

That's... a pretty good point, Ohmwrecker passive seems increasingly like an item that should be retooled as an assassin item. I find this more probable since they stated that they want more utility/teamplay for assassins in their items.

Sightless6632 votes

First, the issue is not "less than 3 seconds". Fewer than 0.5 seconds from engagement is a more realistic complaint. On average, mages kill people in 3 seconds after using their skills. On average, assassins kill much quicker. There is a very, very noticeable difference in the burst period of the average members of each class.

Second, assassins bring the mobility needed to make their ability to instantly delete people reliable to the point of not caring who else is around the target, and to then get away from an overextension without being in real risk. Mages are way more vulnerable than assassins to getting frontlined out of being able to do their job.

Akali is SO HOT10 votes

That's not even close to being true. The only assassins with reliable escapes are Zed and Leblanc. Every other Assassin is stuck dead center right in the middle of your team when they go in on a target. The reason assassins need that mobility is to get to the target in the first place because all of them are melee excluding leblanc. Mages, on the other hand, have long range spells or tons of cc (or both) and some even have good mobility to top that off which makes them much harder to kill when they go in on a team. Not to mention they have the best itemization in the game so they can go full glass cannon while being tanky at the same time. Assassins do not have that luxury. Mages also aren't completely destroyed by exhaust and supports facerolling their keyboards because of all of the utility they bring with them so even if they don't kill their target they still bring a ton of CC to help out their team whereas assassins cannot do that.

People talk about lack of counterplay for Assassins, but then you got Anivia, Annie, Kennen, Lissandra, Orianna, and friends doing comparable damage but this time cc locking you so you can't do anything about their burst while being able to do it safely from range. At least with Assassins you can use your mobility spells or flash to get away. Mages just keep you in the same spot and kill you before their CC duration has ended.

Edit: If you want an example here it is. Diving a Varus like that as a melee Assassin would've been suicide, but Syndra safely killed him from range because of her high damage and stupid hitbox stun. This is at level 6 with 2 dorans rings. He even cleansed the stun and he still died lol. If an assassin had done that then there would be massive outcry for nerfs, but Syndra is a mage so it was just a super outplay.

https://puu.sh/rtGsz/036452778d.webm

NineTailedMystic7 votes

At least with Assassins you can use your mobility spells or flash to get away.

lolakali

Syndra also isn't the best example as people are realizing she needs some nerfs during these Worlds. Point and Click ult doing 1/2 of someone's HP without even being max balls with only 2 D-Rings is pretty dumb

Akali is SO HOT5 votes

Ever since the range nerf on her ult you can totally flash away from her lol. Not to mention if you have a support with half a brain you probably won't even need to flash anyway.

Penns4 votes

Well it still has 700 range, and flash has 425, so... If Akali can kill you, youre most likely not getting away from her, especially with gunblade active + thunderlords... If you have the time to even react and try to flash away lol.

Spacesuit Spiff16 votes

Think of it in terms of radius of influence. Mages aren't supposed to get access to the backline if the teams are even slightly coherent. Assassins can pretty much target adcs exclusively. Champs like Annie have a pretty simple solution: send someone too beefy for her to burst and have them zone her away from the backline or kill her outright. She doesnt want to waste her ult on a j4 or Gragas, and they can make it really dangerous for her to reach a better target.

Even with flash and protobelt, mages can be kept in check if the squishies have some sense. Assassins don't have this problem, they will basically always reach the backline and they have to be directly peeled and killed as they reach the squishies. That's the reason for what you describe: mages can be kept away but not really outplayed, assassins can't be kept away but should be able to be outplayed.

Noblewind13 votes

What mages can kill you in less than 3 seconds with no noticeable counterplay? Assassins get to kill you simply by just "being there" + point/click. Like talon can kill you in the time it takes for one of Syndra's Q ball to cast. That's not much counterplay

Every bursty mage has to either land a skillshot or AOE of some kind before doing the rest. The only ones I can think of really is Cassio/Viktor who can zone you fairly easily then finish the job

Awesomedude888811 votes

Mages have to be fed to delete you in <3 seconds. Assassins do not need to be very fed; they can go even and delete you anyways.

Enosetc13 votes

{quoted}

Mages have to be fed to delete you in <3 seconds. Assassins do not need to be very fed; they can go even and delete you anyways.

ya lemme know how you feel when a kennen who lost lane deletes your backline after finishing protobelt

Juggernaut6285 votes

I've been there. In a ranked teams game I shut down the enemy Kennen and he still proceeded to blow us up anyway.

HateDaddy9 votes

{quoted}

Mages have to be fed to delete you in <3 seconds. Assassins do not need to be very fed; they can go even and delete you anyways.

no they don't lol

The Yetii Rider9 votes

Mages do not have the mobility to close gaps and delete someone like assassins do.

They can kill you from range, sure, but they have to get into that range safely, and that's easier said than done.

NineTailedMystic7 votes

Most Mages require hitting a vital skill shot. Lux needs to hit Q, Ahri needs to hit E, Syndra needs to hit QE, etc from range so there's more time to react to their skill shot like Flash, QSS, or just walking away. Most of these Assassins have skill shots, but they're put into basically melee range so there's much less time to react and avoid their vital skill shot like LB E, Zed Q(s), Talon W. I agree most of their damage should be tuned down a little because of their utility and range, but Mages are typically healthier because they offer that utility and waveclear when behind while Assassins if they get behind are useless (they really should be, but they should have at least one thing to contribute to a team if behind) and if they get ahead they vaporize whoever they touch since they're all damage.

By delaying burst patterns in Assassins, they can give more options to them, but right now when you get wiped from existence in under a second, it isn't fun, there's no compelling gameplay, and it's not good for the game imo. Dealing high damage quickly is a necessary evil to stop the rampant hypercarries but the Assassin Update should still fill that niche while giving those hypercarries ways to outplay.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

{quoted}

Most Mages require hitting a vital skill shot. Lux needs to hit Q, Ahri needs to hit E, Syndra needs to hit QE, etc from range so there's more time to react to their skill shot like Flash, QSS, or just walking away. Most of these Assassins have skill shots, but they're put into basically melee range so there's much less time to react and avoid their vital skill shot like LB E, Zed Q(s), Talon W. I agree most of their damage should be tuned down a little because of their utility and range, but Mages are typically healthier because they offer that utility and waveclear when behind while Assassins if they get behind are useless (they really should be, but they should have at least one thing to contribute to a team if behind) and if they get ahead they vaporize whoever they touch since they're all damage.

By delaying burst patterns in Assassins, they can give more options to them, but right now when you get wiped from existence in under a second, it isn't fun, there's no compelling gameplay, and it's not good for the game imo. Dealing high damage quickly is a necessary evil to stop the rampant hypercarries but the Assassin Update should still fill that niche while giving those hypercarries ways to outplay.

If the hypercarry can outplay an assassin's burst under their own power then the assassin as a champion is dog shit (barring cases like Vayne where her ability to fuck assassins one on one is part of her power budget and a reason for her powerful late game).

I mean, like, what good is an assassin if the enemy ADC, if sufficiently skilled, can negate them entirely BY THEMSELVES? That last part is important.

Assassins are meant to counter ADCs and mages one on one. If the latter can outplay them, how do they counter them again?

People in high elo can negate melee carries entirely with proper play, and guess what? They're considered dog shit for that reason.

What do you mean by outplay?

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