Daily reminder that max % HP true damage is loaded with counterplay and counter builds.

HateDaddy·Aug 26, 2015·244 votes·10,716 views

Here's the list of said counterplay:

This concludes our list.

More at 11

194 Comments

RebonackAug 26, 201579 votes

The counter to %HP true damage is, ostensibly, to kill the target faster.

Unfortunately, all the champions with %HP true damage have tools in their kit to prevent you from killing them faster.

PoisonedPeaceAug 26, 201514 votes

Unfortunately, all the champions with %HP true damage have tools in their kit to prevent you from killing them faster.

The problem is that without those tools, those champions would be useless. %Max HP true damage is just bad to design a champ around.

Dextix LTAug 26, 20158 votes

KogMaw

You were sayin something?

HugifyAug 26, 201535 votes

Athleast his % damage Is not true.

he has no escape,even worst yet,he has 325 movement speed,so he Is far from the worst offender.

Oh and yeah,his early game Is ACTUALLY bad.

Dextix LTAug 26, 20159 votes

Nah, my point was that he isnt useless even without those tools.

WiegrafOfValorAug 26, 20152 votes

%HP true dmg wasn't a problem before item 3153

FF1224Aug 26, 20159 votes

Madreds Bloodrazor?

Axis the DragonAug 26, 20157 votes

Magic Damage, didn't give Lifesteal. In that sense, the only one that actually garnered any benefit from Bloodrazor was a weird On-Hit Kog'Maw. xD

Malicious FuryAug 26, 201510 votes

WW's core item was the Bloodrazor.

Axis the DragonAug 26, 20154 votes

... and WW, the King of On-Hit. I forgot about that, my bad. xD

HawkefireAug 27, 20152 votes

You also forgot on-hit Teemo builds!

maikokkAug 26, 20152 votes

or.... you could buy.... HP....

another common theme with all %hp true damage champs is that they also have other forms of damage.

plot twist: HP is more effective when a champs power budget is invested in true damage. % or not.

Vellich0rAug 26, 201524 votes

That isn't true at all. % max health true damage doesn't care how much HP you stack, it will literally kill you just as fast. for instance. bob the sagot has a q that deals 10% of the enemies maximum health as true damage every time he presses the button. phil the frog from the other team has 100 health, geoffrey the frozen lobster head from the other team has 100 million billion health. Pop quiz, which one takes more hits to kill? (Hint: It takes 10 hits a piece.)

AckelopeAug 26, 20153 votes

I wish I could favorite comments...

AVL PrinceAug 27, 201519 votes

you aren't understanding what our friend here is saying. Let's say bob the sagot has a q that. as you said, deals 10% of the enemy champion's health. Let's also say, for fucks sake, that he has 5000 AD, and a cooldown of 3 seconds on his Q. He throws the Q at Geoffrey the Frozen lobster, who has 100 million billion health, effectively dealing 10 million billion health. He now has 3 seconds where, even though he has 5000 AD, he will not even begin to strach Geoffrey, because this nice gentlemen got 90 million billion health, whereas Phil the frog, in the same situation, EVEN THOUGH he only took 10 health from bob's 10% hp true damage, will then die in one hit, because 5000 > 90.

FrontlinerDeltaAug 27, 20153 votes

Logic is victorious!

Vellich0rAug 27, 20153 votes

Now, that is very true, but, you have to remember that building health in that scenario even would be virtually ineffectual compared to armor. Imagine if instead of 100 million billion health he had 100 million billion armor and 100 health, from that very same damage he would take 10 damage from the % health damage, and about .0000000000000000000000000000000001 damage from the 5000 AD. What I am trying to say in general with my response is that building health against a percent health champion is a bad idea when you could be building any other stat to counter their kit more directly. In other words, the part of the post I was against is more this part ("plot twist: HP is more effective when a champs power budget is invested in true damage. % or not.") That is not at all true, as the health is virtually valueless compared to any other stat because if you kept the low raw health and used armor and such to bolster your effective health with something that heals, you would be massively more effective. After all, if you have soraka and you have 100 million billion health but no armor, where the other guy has tons of armor but little health in the same scenario, mister 100 million billion health would actually die significantly faster because while soraka could easily outheal the damage done to the 100 health guy, she wouldn't be able to do shit against the 100 million billion health guy. In other words, it is ALWAYS worse to build health against a % max health ability (even true damage) because you make his ability do more damage, so if your team has any heals they are completely inneffective whereas if you build other things to better counter the damage (AS reduction, things that discourage them targeting you, etc) you can take better advantage of any ally healing effect (or your own for that matter). in fact, if you just built a shat ton of armor and had only 10 health, the % max health true damage wouldn't even be able to out damage your health regen meaning the less health the better in this case.

CarryAug 26, 201531 votes

No counter builds? Sure.

No counter play? No, you're just pretending that counter build = counterplay here. The % max hp true damage abilities in LoL (Vayne W, Fiora Passive/Ult) have plenty of counterplay. Against Fiora the counterplay is to not allow her to walk around you while autoing you in melee, against Vayne the counterplay is to not allow her to successively attack a single target over and over.

UltraSceptileAug 26, 20155 votes

{quoted}

No counter builds? Sure.

No counter play? No, you're just pretending that counter build = counterplay here. The % max hp true damage abilities in LoL (Vayne W, Fiora Passive/Ult) have plenty of counterplay. Against Fiora the counterplay is to not allow her to walk around you while autoing you in melee, against Vayne the counterplay is to not allow her to successively attack a single target over and over.

Uh huh yeah and release xin zhao wasn't OP just stay out of his range and kite him.

AnidanAug 26, 20159 votes

Xin Zhao was able to get hit 3-hit stuff off despite multiple targets. Vayne has to hit the same target for it to mean a damn thing.

And Vayne's 3-hit combo appears to be one of the weaker ones in the game, given that it applies only damage. Xin Zhao gets healed passively every 3 hits, and gets a knock-up on the third hit after the activation of an ability, as well as giving him extra damage on said hits. Ekko outputs a fairly large amount of damage on his 3rd hit, slows the enemy and speeds himself up. Gnar deals %hp physical damage and speeds himself up in addition to that.

Vayne's is literally just damage. It's not even the scariest part of her kit - her ult is, with her large AD steroid, invisibility on tumble, and increased movement speed toward an enemy. Target the actual enemy of her kit here (ult) not something that's actually fine on its own (Silver Bolts).

UltraSceptileAug 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Xin Zhao was able to get hit 3-hit stuff off despite multiple targets. Vayne has to hit the same target for it to mean a damn thing.

And Vayne's 3-hit combo appears to be one of the weaker ones in the game, given that it applies only damage. Xin Zhao gets healed passively every 3 hits, and gets a knock-up on the third hit after the activation of an ability, as well as giving him extra damage on said hits. Ekko outputs a fairly large amount of damage on his 3rd hit, slows the enemy and speeds himself up. Gnar deals %hp physical damage and speeds himself up in addition to that.

Vayne's is literally just damage. It's not even the scariest part of her kit - her ult is, with her large AD steroid, invisibility on tumble, and increased movement speed toward an enemy. Target the actual enemy of her kit here (ult) not something that's actually fine on its own (Silver Bolts).

She's basically the lee sin of adcs. Except lee sin had counterplay. I'll take counterplay and strong early game over mediocre early game and uncounterable late game.

CarryAug 26, 20159 votes

Really have no idea what you could possibly mean by Vayne is the Lee sin of ADC's.

Both are circlejerked about on these boards? Ya okay she's the Lee Sin of ADC's in that regard.

AnidanAug 26, 20152 votes

The closest thing I remember seeing ADCs have to a "Lee Sin" on this game is Corki, not Vayne. Vayne is good when the meta allows her to be good or when the enemy team's picks allow her to excel (like the current state of the game), whereas Corki, while the meta may not favor him sometimes, is always a solid pick.

Vayne has that whole circlejerk thing going on here, but make no mistake: She is not the Lee Sin of ADCs beyond that one metric. If anyone holds that disingenuous title, it's Corki.

BluePolarizerAug 27, 20151 votes

lolwut. Corki falls off insanely hard late game. That's his counterplay. Don't let him snowball the game early and you win late. Or take a safe ADC and allow yourself to be carried by a strong scaling mid/top/jungle.

AnidanAug 27, 20152 votes

Oh... so he's like Lee. Get past the early game without him getting fed and you'll have a pretty easy time against him, or take a safe pick into him and try to outscale him.

Sounds like Lee to me. Corki has a strong perennial LCS presence, a kit that can be used with many team comps, and wants to push his early/mid-game advantage and try to snowball a victory from there. Like Lee.

GorgannanAug 26, 20152 votes

Actually, Gnar's does %hp magic damage, MUCH better than attack damage for a champion like Gnar. With that considered, I'd say his is a tie with Ekko, since Ekko's has a significant slow and speed boost for him essentially a free getaway vs any melees, and Gnar's can be applied with boomerangs and insanely fast auto speeds.

The Sword SaintAug 26, 20156 votes

Don't confuse number imbalances with concept imbalances.

StraleyAug 26, 20154 votes

Not allow Vayne to successively attack a single target over and over. Really easy with her Q and passive. Don't allow them to attack you isn't that the counterplay to all abilities and champions?

Chromatic EagleAug 26, 20152 votes

So against Vayne, the counterplay is to not let her be an adc?

Thief of TimeAug 26, 201526 votes

Or the fact Garen can do 1,500 true damage to you the " tank" if your a villain, tons of counterplay

HateDaddyAug 26, 201541 votes

[{quoted}](name=TriTail Anarchy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5KLnB3Nj,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-08-26T16:53:14.351+0000)

Or the fact Garen can do 1,500 true damage to you the " tank" if your a villain, tons of counterplay

I had the audacity to kill Garen in lane

Now I can't lane because killing is toxic. Did Lyte make new Garen??

Thief of TimeAug 26, 20155 votes

Easiest way to balance garen is to make the villain go on whoever has the THE MOST DAMAGE recently, who should be the adc/mid, maybe jungler, but they get peel so it makes it harder for garen to kill them instead of obliterating anyone with his ult

ChoGathsSonAug 26, 201519 votes

Nothing screams outplayed quite like %max HP true damage

LilxPaprikaAug 26, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Nothing screams outplayed quite like %max HP true damage

why are you getting down vote. brilliant sarcasm.

ShinkadaAug 26, 201511 votes

It's fantastic on Fiora. Her identity is a duelist and the %max true lets her solo anyone, and here's the important part, /without blowing squishies off the planet/. If they wanted to build Fiora in a way that she could duel tanks in ANY other way, she would kill any glass-cannon character in two attacks. Remember how old Fiora lategame would click on you twice with her dash then once with her ult and you'd just die? And there was absolutely nothing you could do about it? Wasn't that fun? Didn't that have great counterplay opportunity?

Nowadays Fiora either has to have a very extended fight allowing her to work her way around to all of your weak points, or she has to ambush you and pull off an extremely mechanically precise combo where she rapidly repositions herself while using her attack resets only on specific points, where failing to anticipate or react to your movements will make her waste one of her auto resets on a direction she's already hit, and there's really nothing stopping you from valk+flashing away. No you can't build against it, you have to play against it.

"OMG I HAVE TO PLAY? I CAN'T JUST OUT STAT MY OPPONENTS? BUT I'M LAZY/BAD AT VIDEOGAMES AND I DON'T WANT TO!" - people who complain about this crap

Garen is a different story but if you can't create enough of an advantage from a kill (kill him, push to his tower so he'll miss the wave, bounce it back and freeze some more, that alone should be about a 5-600 gold gap), then you should probably just wait until someone else on your team gets a kill and play safe until then. Which is a pretty unique mechanic so w/e.

ZombeezyJeezyAug 26, 20158 votes

Garen is basically a bruiser Assassin hybrid now.

Seems healthy.

######Edit; kappa.

stealthfox94Aug 27, 20154 votes

Fizz

Vistha KaiAug 26, 20157 votes

Counterplay to Fiora is standing next to a wall. Counterplay to Garen is not killing enemy dudes.

Guess there IS something.

DealthAug 27, 20156 votes

Let's actually be reasonable for a second. Vayne would take over 30 hits alone to kill you with only her true damage. Most of her damage is AD which means you can counter it with armor. Fiora true damage only comes from attacking a weak point, which you can clearly see and try to position yourself so she can't get to it. Garen does true damage if you are the villian, so if you are the villian, just stay away from his ult. There you go guys all it takes is half a brain and you just countered % true damage.

ThatToxicTrollAug 26, 20155 votes

%max hp true damage is trash game design. remember when every champ dealt 100% hp true damage, and everyones movespeed and mobility was the exactly the same? i do, and it was called checkers and it sucked. riot stop disgracing yourself with this sht whoever pitched it in the idea room should be moved to sales for convincing you to buy your own cancer fck u %max hp true damage

Kuroi86Aug 26, 20154 votes

Daily reminder to never duel a duelist, always bring a friend or two.

ConturbatioAug 26, 20153 votes

Riot should make Vayne's silver bolts not proc if the target has a spellshield. This would help ADCs like Sivir not get stomped hard.

TotalJerkAug 27, 20153 votes

The champions that have it are designed around applying it to a single target. So the counterplay is supposed to be "don't duel them, but bring friends"

7ha7guy777Aug 26, 20152 votes

I thought the counterplay was killing them before they could hit you

HateDaddyAug 26, 201541 votes

{quoted}

I thought the cpunterplay was killing them before they could hit you

Yeah I'll just kill that full tank Garen really fast

JingerbeardmanAug 26, 20152 votes

TECHNICALLY attack speed slows is the only true counter play... since vayne is the only champ with %health true damage.

It still needs to be changed though.

Sozan5Aug 26, 20155 votes

You use outdated info.

Garen and Fiora also possess %health true damage now.

Fiora on her passive - she can easily get to 12% per activation late game (and her ult allows her to activate it 4 times in a row). And Garen on his Villain passive. This one is more conditional, but it is there (1% health as true damage on every autoattack and on every spin tick (up to 10% from a single E)).

LVL 5 POROAug 27, 20152 votes

Someone give this man award. Best thread 2015.

FantasySniperAug 27, 20152 votes

What happened to AS slows and CC?

Not they're nearly effective enough for a fed Vayne, but still.

SoMNiaAug 27, 20151 votes

Vayne: Randuin's Omen, Frozen heart, make it hard for her to stack it. If she starts focusing you, kite her into your team, make her overextend in order to kill you. Otherwise, burst her down, and if you can't, stay away from her. Bring pink wards or upgraded sweepers in case she ults.

Fiora: Kite her, position so the vital points are hard/impossible to reach. Put them against terrain. Keep your distance when you know her Lunge is off cooldown, make her use it to catch up rather than letting her position as she pleases.

Garen: Kite the hell out of him. He's Garen. If you're low, stay away from him, like you would Darius.

And that's all, because it really is a rare mechanic, like they said it would be.