After 5 years of League, I am calling it quits at the end of the season.

HateDaddy··279 votes·70,094 views

Make no mistake about it, when I say quit, I mean I'm not going to play much anymore aside from the occasional normal game and arams. I also realize that regardless of whether I continue to play or not, Riot doesn't really care and they'll continue to make their money. I am replaceable and irrelevant, I am not trying to suggest I am anything other than that. However, as I have spent quite a bit of my time - which isn't easy to come by - and hard earned money on this game for 5 years, I feel that the least Riot can do is hear me out.

I do not have fun playing league of legends anymore. In fact, this has been the most unfun season I've ever had and that's keeping in mind some of the ridiculous fuckery we've seen in various seasons like the cinderhulk/thornmail tank meta of s5, the ADC meta of s6, the constant top lane mage meta top lanes where the likes of Vlad, Ryze, Cass, Lulu and Lissandra invalidate melees entirely and force them out of the game. I realized that those metas wouldn't last forever and I wasn't obligated to play through them rigorously because they'd change and that's exactly what happened.

My complaints of the game have less to do with balance. I realize there's quite a bit of ADC hate at the moment but that's not new. Truthfully, I find that the balance outside of ADCs spiking a bit too early is fairly good minus a few classes - but that doesn't matter because even if balance wasn't good, it's always subject to change and you can quickly see annoying metas squashed with PBE updates and eventual patch changes. Long story short, riot is pretty transparent about their efforts and attempts to balance the game as well as be open about those changes. I respect that, I always have. It's one of the few things that's kept me around this long because frankly, I've been considering quitting for quite some time. But I have hope that's riot will adjust the current lackluster game.

What I hate right now is very simple: games snowball too hard and end too quickly. Very rarely do I feel like I've had an opportunity to engage in riveting gameplay. If I play fighters, i split push and either my team understands how to play this way or they don't. If I play tanks, I rely on my team to follow up on plays, play around my zone control and not waste my deaths. I have very little ability to carry games because of how quickly gold stacks up for teams. This isn't exclusive to any class, no class allows someone to solo carry and I suppose that's fine but the fact that the games end so quickly now without me contributing much frustrates the hell out of me.

I don't get to expand upon my potential win conditions, those are decided in the first ten minutes. Regardless of how well I perform unless I just flat out feed my ass off, I'm going to do the same thing and I'll do it with the understanding that I won't really have a true moment to feel like "I'm playing the game" because it feels more like simply going through the motions. Lane phase ends so quickly, one teamfight 25 minutes in likely ends the game. Dragons and Rift Harold are laughable easy to kill. Baron and Elder are laughably easy to kill. Towers do no damage and die to paper balls. The interaction between damage and durability go hand-in-hand to ungodly levels of snowball. When you're ahead, you melt everything and die to nothing and wen you're behind, you do no damage and die to paper cuts. I feel like the skill required to function in this game has been removed.

As a long time DooM 2 player from the early 2000s, I'll make a doom reference: I feel like the game went from skill level of Nightmare! to I'm too young to die. I feel like instead of sweeping through the map carefully and dealing with respawning monsters, strong monsters galore like Revs, Archvilles and Mancubi, I'm constantly killing pistol zombies and simply pressing exit. There is no gameplay, it's been so watered down by its extreme pace that many of the finer nuances of the game feel lost. Coming back feels impossible, teamfights end too quickly, CC is out of control, as is damage. Creep block makes playing melees miserable and all of this is occurring with the foresight of understanding that the biggest and most fundamental change to ever occur will take place next season with rune/mastery changes.

My response? No thanks, enough is enough. My time has always been limited but if I truly enjoy something like I did with League for so long, I will make time for it even if it means I lose out on significant amounts of sleep. I value my hobbies and my family understands this and encourages me to do it. But I don't value the current game and the fact that there's no self examination or evaluation openly taking place about the current game pace and he laughably easy amount of effort it takes to kill everything and snowball with games commonly ending by 25 minutes and instead a discussion about adding more broken runes/masteries to the game rather than addressing the former and adding another element of gameplay that further fucks balance and gameplay, I've had enough. This is where I get off. The game isn't enjoyable.

And it's going in a direction that isn't addressing what I find to be massive issues currently when Riot is a billion dollar organization with virtual limitless resources in the gaming world - in other words, there's no excuse for some of the things being as bad as they are as you either allowed it to happen before it got to a point of no return or you simply aren't making the effort required to fix it now.

I am finishing out the season because in my youth, I had a horrible tendency to procrastinate and leave things unfinished. In recent years, I've gone away from that and I finish everything I start. I intend to do that with this season but I do it with the knowledge that while I may quit, I'm not going to do so without at least getting these frustrations off my chest. But this isn't my only complaint, I have one more.

I hate the current rank system that rewards players for playing thousands of games, making it virtually impossible to really demote. This cut off is right at my elo, right around diamond 5 (where I belong) and it makes my elo/rank bracket the most toxic and unfun experience because these terrible players can play 3000 games a season, climb this high with a 47-48% winrate and lose 20-30 games in d5 before even being demoted and all they need to do is win 5 games to get right back. You should honestly be demoted an entire league when you demote from a tier - I.E if you demote from diamond 5 to play, you should fucking demote to plat 5 where your terrible ass belongs because nobody should lose twenty games in a row in an elo where they belong, EVER.

Once again, I realize I'm unimportant in the long run. I understand I'm a spoke on a wheel that will keep turning regardless of whether I remain or not. But I love this game, at least I loved it and it sucks so bad that I simply don't find it enjoyable anymore. I'd rather speak about how I feel and say my piece than silently fade off unsatisified.

Tl;dr there are so many problems with this game right now from game pace issues to creep block that need to be addressed first instead of going to an even more complicated rune/masteries system that will likely take all of next season to balance, further putting off issues that need to be addressed now. And your ranking system fucking sucks.

333 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectar162 votes

Hey HateDaddy,

To start off, I just wanted to say that we, Riot, do care when people choose to stop playing League. We might not be able to address everyone individually, but as gamers ourselves and players who love to play League, whenever someone, let alone a super engaged player chooses to leave, it gives us reason to take a step back and think about what we're doing, or not doing, that made you want to make that choice. I can empathize with a lot of what you wrote here, as I've been playing League since 2009, and joined Riot back in 2014 (god that seems like forever ago), and want to try to touch on at least some of what you've said.

I want to make it clear the statement that you're replaceable and irrelevant isn't true. Full stop. We can't simply "replace" a player who has been a long time supporter of League, we can't replace those experiences, the highs, the lows, and everything in between that you experienced. To me that's one of the reasons I love League, because when I think back on the 8 1/2 years of playing, my own experience is my own personal story where I can remember times in the past before a meta, when Ashe mid tping to a ward after ulting from fountain was a thing. I can remember when Rock Solid made GP support a thing in the pro scene and it worked. I remember when Veigar evaporated people with DFG and when Yi could EASILY 1v5. I remember when TF had his destiny on his E, and would tp to a side lane bush and have his team follow him for a cheesy early game kill. Those are the memories and experiences that if I left couldn't be replaced. It's all a part of the journey, and the never ending path to mastery that keeps me coming back to League year after year. Have there been times I've wanted to quit? God damn right there has been. Hell, I have a baby now, and another on the way in February, and with my free time quickly fleeting, the first thing I still want to do when I get an hour to myself is load up a game of League and get my ass handed to me on the Rift (that or play a quick game of pubg if I don't have enough time). But enough about me, let's talk about what you wrote here, again I won't be able to touch on everything, but I'll try my best with the time I have.

The feeling that this season has been one of the least fun seasons for you is a very interesting thing to callout, as despite what I've said about, it's something that I've felt at times but not the entire season as a whole. Usually when I feel like the game has lost all appeal, is after I've had a run of games where someone went full potato on me team, or raged out at us for several games in a row. Those are the times that I stop and ask if it's really worth it, but then when I find an hour of freetime...I still keep coming back. So there seems to be difference with what we classify as what makes League fun. For me, if my teammates are level headed rational people, League is still the best game ever, but for you it seems like it's more about the state of the game which takes the fun away, so let's dive into that a bit.

Snowballing and game length are some very interesting things to point out as reasons for feeling the game isn't fun. Anecdotally, I feel like my games have had more variance in terms of quality of game play for the past year, and to me personally, it's led to a feeling of games feeling more snowbally at times. On the other hand though, I also feel like I've been in games with more epic "come from behind" victories due to good teamplay, catchup xp/gold which helps cushion snowballing, and over confident opponents. League was designed as a team game, and when people snowball the hell out of their lanes winning 1v1, 2v2, or with some help from the jungler, the game also gets determined by which team has the better comp. The infamous "don't worry we'll scale", is actually a thing that matters, and has led me to experience more games that maybe felt like they were decided at 10 minutes, but actually swung in my favor as we scaled. In regards to playing fighters specifically, we have a task on our plate to figure out how to best support melee champs in League holistically that we're aiming to get to early next year. Right now being relegated to split pushing, and buying the same items that your fellow marksman are purchasing usually makes one of the most valuable stats in the game (range) make you come second to anyone else that can build the same items. This often forces melee fighters to rely on splitpushing, which is a pretty shitty solution to a problem when you want to be in the middle of a team wrecking havoc whether it be with your blade or your fishing rod. Sorry that was a bit tangential, but you called out fighters and I wanted to touch on it a bit.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like a lot of what's leading you to feel fed up with League is how heavily you need to rely on teammates to do the right thing? If that's the case, it's going to be a bit trickier to solve the problem for you explicitly, as the design of LoL is based so heavily on coordination with teammates, whereas a game like DOTA is designed around each champion being capable of carrying their team more easily. I won't go super heavy into this discussion, since I'm not a designer and didn't create the original dota, dota 2, or League (I just work on the balance team), but we have intentionally gone the direction of having all the micro decisions you make in champ select, runes/masteries, in itemization, in lane phase, and macro level calls all feed into increasing your chance to win. I definitely don't think we've perfected it, and we have a long way to go until we can say that's 100% the case, but I'd be curious what sort of solutions you'd like to see to make League the game that you want to keep playing? Is it the ability to better coordinate with teammates? Is it the ability to more consistently carry a game when you rock the lane phase and go 6/0? Is it giving a different distribution of damage and durability to champs? Or retuning jungle mobs and epic encounters? I'm asking this to be pedantic, I'm genuinely curious in your thoughts as a diamond player and person who's played League for as long as you have.

I never played Doom, so unfortunately I can't touch on your references, what I can say however is we've been talking internally about how we can make epic monsters (Rift Herald, Baron, Dragons), actually feel...epic. There won't be anything in for this pre-season as we're trying to keep the runeway (hue) for runes reforged as clean as possible for as stable a launch as we can get, but we're talking about them for next year. No concrete plans as of yet, but it's one thing I wanted to call out since you pointed out how they currently feel. In regards to teamfights I think this one becomes a bit more nuanced and subjective, as my perception of the live state currently is that coming back is arguably more possible now, that teamfights are actually longer, but I think I can concede the point about CC being higher especially in a time like right now when tanks are strong and viable. Creep block is another thing we've been talking about, not removing it, but making some adjustments so we can avoid as many of the "I was literally stuck in my creeps" situations as possible.

I would go into the runes reforged stuff, but I'd prefer to leave that to the team (who's been pumping out a ton of content/articles on their progress), and I have to say that while I was personally skeptical of the system at first (like waaaay back), more and more recently I've been getting excited theory crafting how a particular keystone would synergize with a champion or playstyle I enjoy. When I'm testing internally it feels more like early seasons, when theory crafting was another key way you could find your way to victory, and I'm super excited for the new system to go live, and see what problems it solves, and what we need to continue to work on (like some of the ones I touched on above).

In regards to the rank system, this is one which I may actually be the most aligned with you, and it's been the topic of some hot debate last Friday in the office in one of our slack channels. There are some major pros to the way it works now, in regards to things like how you can feel a sense of progression as you play, but there's definitely some pitfalls when you run into people who seemingly just grinded their way to their mmr and don't actually have the skill to hold their own. I do honestly believe that we have one of the best matchmakers and ranked systems around, but definitely don't think it's perfect either, though sadly I don't have much context into that space I could give you. Just know that it's a thing we talk about a lot ourselves.

To close this off. I want to first say that if you do choose to truly leave League, I hope you find another avenue that brings you the same highs that I've experienced in the past 8 1/2 years, whether that be in games, or in the real world (fuck it's scary out there). You're not just a spoke in a wheel, as for every person like you that writes a clearly passionate and informed post that you did, there's 10 others who leave silently. Yes, we can replace you with another player if we looked at our players as just 1s and 0s, but that's not how we look at you. You've been a part of this journey and have supported us, and it's on us to prove that League is a game you should feel confident in spending your time and getting rewarded for doing so. Whether that's ranked dominance, super fucking high moments, or riveting gameplay. I appreciate the time you took to write this, and I'm sorry if it felt like I was glossing over any of your statements. I'm not the best equipped to answer all of them. If you do have followup though please reply to this and I'll try to get back to you at some point over the next few days.

I'm really sorry that this is likely riddled with typos and shitty grammar, it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet :P, also note that a lot of this is just my opinion, and not an official stance from Riot, but I wanted to reach out to you regardless.

Thanks again man, and good luck over the rest of the season! Asyrite

Chazual Fridays11 votes

Your feelings on the new rune system gives me a lot of hope - I do miss the theorycrafting of the olden days. There isn't as much excitement of "Oo, I wonder if this will work?" these days.

I'm not the OP, but I, at least, appreciate this thorough response.

Selegun4 votes

Could we look into getting some super focused and unique items for melee? Current selections of items make it seem like fighters have to be a ball of stats to function so it might be nice to see them get items that give them some sort of special feeling. Maybe a shield that cuts incoming ranged damage in half by splitting the bullet into fragments that shower allies? Tweek Ohmwrecker into shielding a tower shit before pulsing that damage over everything in a range based on how small your attack range is? Fighters need something that can make them feel good about being melee rather than being hampered by it.

RiotRiot MapleNectar11 votes

This is definitely something we want to look into, though it won't be for this pre-season. It's a project that we believe has incredibly high value, but with so much disruption with runes reforged, we don't want to destabilize things any more than they will be. I don't have a timeline for when we'd ship something, but it's definitely one of our higher priorities.

Selegun3 votes

Thank you very much for letting us know! Waiting is the least we can do with a game as evolution centric as League.

Good luck when the time comes to start work on those items and please feel free to get as crazy with them as the rune update!

Jayce Top2 votes

This is an off topic question, but I am getting a Computer Science major and was wondering where I could find available jobs to work for Riot?

Sasu OwO3 votes

https://www.riotgames.com/careers I got you homie [slayer-jinx-catface]

RiotRiot MapleNectar4 votes

The link this Sasu OwO is the place you'd want take a gander!

Mãge22 votes

Asyrite,

A big problem with League is that players expect you guys to respond to their incessant nagging. There comes a time when it just isn't good to explain what's going on with patches so that players can "discover" for themselves why some adjustments were made in a certain direction. If you are in a position of power and you really think you understand the game better than the short-minded average league player, then prove it by making your point. Change the game and leave it that way for a while.

You guys keep tuning the game and iterating with small number adjustments and changes. Sure, it makes it competitive, but it doesn't make it fun. I can't learn to play a champion, for example, and expect that the champion will play the same way in two weeks because you guys keep changing it. Same with items. Reworking existing champions and/or items to make them more fair to play against or more mechanically intense and exciting does not work if simply for the fact that League is too simple of a game.

And what I mean by simple is this - there are six keys for your champion. Item actives hardly "count" because they're not UNIQUE to your champion. And if I put it that way, then each champion really only has four keys because Summoner Spells are also not unique to your champion. These four keys are also usually not very interesting - they lack depth. There aren't many abilities for example, like Fiora's parry. Fiora's parry interacts (key word) with other abilities and there's a huge mindgame behind when, how, and where to use it (against opponents) and how to play against it (when versus Fiora). Same thing with Master Yi's Alpha Strike (albeit a lot less so because you can't really "mess up" with Alpha Strike) and Meditate - they interact with other champions and other champions' abilities.

Compare this with the average League ability - say (Insert Skillshot Here). Sure, it's outplayable in the sense that you can play something like a Mini-Touhou with your mouse to "dodge" it. But it certainly doesn't feel that great to do so. Nor is it really interactive. It's not so much about timing as it is inputting random movements with your mouse to confuse your enemy and make it hard to predict where you're going. Let's put it this way - if a robot inputting random directional movement controls of variable movement durations (say x to x+3 number of "steps", based on RNG) can "outplay" these skillshots, then it's not really interesting or dynamic gameplay. It doesn't matter what the other player trying to land the skillshot does, the robot will do what it does and dodge the skillshot simply by chance. It becomes gameplay that's about as interesting as rolling dice repeatedly.

Skillshots are only healthy for the game in moderation, regardless of what your players may SAY they want if only for the fact that they're all the same boring thing over and over. I remember when trying out new champions used to be interesting. Kayle, although an unfair champion in many cases is a great example. She has so much pressure simply because her ultimate is NOT FAIR. I can't say I enjoy playing against Kayle, but at the very least someone who's playing Kayle can enjoy playing her because she has that NOT FAIR card.

I play Veigar, for example, because he's NOT FAIR in some situations. I love it when I press R and my opponents just outright die. I love it when I flash, QR and they just die. Lack of counterplay is subjective - "counterplay" doesn't have to be limited to mouse movements. In fact, I actually kind of liked when League wasn't all about these micro mouse movements.

And finally, the dynamic between the champion classes is pure theory. It doesn't play out in that way in the actual game because of the way your items system works. I can't do your work for you, so I'll leave it to you to figure out what's wrong with it.

Sincerely, Another Long Time League Player who Doesn't Play as Much Anymore

Elikain3 votes

And when a champion has been left to their own devices "for a while", we get the same kind of problematic nagging from players calling out "shit tier" "or OP tier" consistently. The very fact that League is a game that evolves in small ways every two weeks has been known for years. That's how it's always been. No point in making such an argument because League is not a game that can survive long patch droughts and then hit us with an almost pre-season spike in changes or content.

Sraeg201312 votes

On the other hand though, I also feel like I've been in games with more epic "come from behind" victories due to good teamplay, catchup xp/gold which helps cushion snowballing, and over confident opponents.

Literally the only match this season where my team LEGITIMATELY came back from the brink of defeat was on completely unbalanced Twisted Treeline's ranked mode. My team managed to hold the other one at our Nexus and stall the game for over 20 minutes until each of us was able to at least 1v2, because our teamcomp was much stronger at full build. They even tried cheesing us by attempting at our Nexus with Pantheon's mandrop and Lissandra's claw over the wall. With each ACE we managed to chip at their base for the ultimate victory.

Want to know why I said "legitimately" in the first sentence? Because on this clown-fiesta of Summoners Rift's 20-25 minute long games there are no "comebacks" only the winning team fucking up severely and the other taking down 3 towers and an inhibitor in one push without minions.

Catchup XP only works if you can leave your base without dying. Minions of the winning team pushing in on their own does not help the losing team, because they are forced to send people to deal with minions instead of contesting objectives.

I'd be curious what sort of solutions you'd like to see to make League the game that you want to keep playing? Is it the ability to better coordinate with teammates? Is it the ability to more consistently carry a game when you rock the lane phase and go 6/0? Is it giving a different distribution of damage and durability to champs? Or retuning jungle mobs and epic encounters? I'm asking this to be pedantic, I'm genuinely curious in your thoughts as a diamond player and person who's played League for as long as you have.

Back in the day we had what you'd call "Baron throws". The Baron was an important and dangerous objective that done at a wrong moment could turn the game around.

Now the active buff is much much harder to deal with for the losing team, but at the same time the winning team can do it in the time required for a champion with tier 2 boots to walk from the raptor camp to the back of the Baron pit to ward.

A winning team can have an ADC with 2 items and another semi-tanky champion 2v1 Baron at 20th minute.

Shit like this is completely unacceptable.

HateDaddy17 votes

Hey asyrite...

Thanks a lot for your response as well as the time and effort you put into it. I'm not bothered by grammatical flaws, I'm a psychology major, not a literature major :p. I typically don't have the time to respond as quickly as I'd like so I do apologize that it took me so long to clarify a few things.

Honestly, my frustrations aren't really tied to being unable to "carry games solo." This element has always been present in league, though admittedly in previous seasons it certainly felt the potential to solo carry games was much higher. That's neither here nor there as that's a rather amibiuous element of game play to accurately measure. It does feel like that's true to an extent but no, I wouldn't say it's a "gripe." It's simply part of the game.

I imagine much of my frustration comes from fighters and top lane in general. This isn't the first time bot lane decides the game, in reality that's been true for 80% of leagues existence. But it's the manor in which it happens - between ganks, dives and a plethora of tools available in this game to secure kills with relative ease, it feels like bot - and in many cases mid - become such disatoruous or advantageous stomps that I likely have very little to contribute to the game except split push. That's frustrating as hell. I also can't interact with my lane opponent because any sign of aggression is likely the result of an incoming gank so top lane becomes this remote island where interaction is scarce because junglers have way too much control over the lane (and the game quite frankly but that's another toooc entirely).

I'm fed up, im tired and I'm burnt out. I've always sworn to myself if I'm not having fun anymore, im not going to stick around for long. I will finish the season because it would bother me on a personal level of it didn't - I don't care if anyone thinks that's lame honestly. And the things that make this so unfun with melees sucking, creep block, game pace, glass objectives and general snowballing, they are things that have been true really all season and even parts of last season. I've lost faith that Riot wants to fix this because in my estimation, given Riots obsession with competitive play, im not sure that the top brass even see it as an issue because their pockets are getting lined regardless. And let's not pretend money isn't a big deal here, I don't even blame them. I used to deny that Riot lost its "ties" the community but in reality, it has and it has for a long time. With all of this things culminating, I've reached the conclusion that this game is no longer worth my time. Anr I don't see anything changing my mind on that.

RiotRiot MapleNectar16 votes

Hey HateDaddy!

Ok phew, I was econ and comp sci, so writing isn't always my strong suit :P English is also my second language, but I got out most of those kinks when I was younger.

Thanks for clarifying on the carrying games solo part. It was primarily what I'd gleened from your initial post, but I think your third paragraph is where the frustration truly comes from. It's interesting how bot lane's impact on the game is viewed as a problem (not necessarily incorrectly) when we've also had the memes of the tp clown fiesta bot lane, adc2017 memes, and other periods of time where bot lane folks felt like no matter what they did they had no ability to have a meaningful impact on the game, because other roles had too much agency to get to bot and shut them down early. A large part of the current perception though, and I'm not talking about the marksman stuff we're seeing on live right now, is due in part to how they scale, and the value that ranged has in a game. A marksman like Trist, Sivir, Kog as just a few examples have very specific strengths that make it so that the later they get in game, the more impact they get to have. Whether that's being able to chip away at the enemies in teamfights thanks to range, taking down objectives like turrets or Baron, or quickly clearly side lanes and building lane pressure. The path to get there though is typically reliant on a much more punishing early/mid game, periods where they're waiting to hit critical item spikes to let them chew through whatever is in front of them. Basically in games that go beyond 30 minutes, I believe it's more likely that a loss will be attributed to the marksman that gets the triple kill and then helps push down mid and kill the nexus rather than the jungle or top laner that cced an enemy, or the midlaner that got the pick. It's viscerally easier to remember the person who got the kills as opposed to everything else happening around them. That's not to say that marksman AREN'T actually what's causing a team to win, but that's usually because they got to the point in the game where that's what they should be doing. Right now things like Ardent Censer mitigate some of that mid game lull as an item that let's them spike (we have more work planned that we're going to look to ship after Worlds), and we think that will help somewhat, but there's more underlying problems that also need some good design work done.

The particular line " it feels like bot - and in many cases mid - become such disastrous or advantageous stomps that I likely have very little to contribute to the game except split push" was actually a primary driver for the recent Draven change. For now we didn't want to lower numbers on his kit, as there's a fair bit of counterplay around him, but rather the reduce the powerless feeling of being top, mid, or jungle, and watching the Draven cashing in on his passive time and time again in bot lane leaving you little recourse to stop him. With being able to punish him early , it forces the Draven player to play smart to get through that early/mid game, and if he does he gets to do Draven things, but not just because he got first blood and got a huge gold spike over his lane opponent. This gives people playing against a Draven to deliberately do things to stop him from just "winning more". This is glossing over the topic of "agency over bot lane" quite a bit, but it's a thing that's definitely a cycle. If we were to reduce the channel time on TP again, I'm sure we'd see the sentiment swing again the other way, it's s balancing act and we need to figure out a better solution for it.

In regards to not being able to push up in top lane for fear of the jungle, do you have any ideas of how you'd like that resolved other than just "make junglers weaker". What if there was a world where supports didn't have to go bot with the marksman, and there was either a designated "roamer" on the team, or an item system that would allow supports to go top, or mid, or bot, and not just be tied to playing with an adc? What do you think would be a reasonable path forward?

I'm interested in what makes you feel that our "top brass" calls the shots both in how we balance the game. People like Ghostcrawler certainly has an influence as he's the lead designer for all of League, but I've never once had him come to the balance team pit and say "you guys need to buff x,y,z for pro play", it's just not what happens here. In regards to community involvement, I think it's an area we may have backed away from in terms of active interaction, but we read the boards, we read reddit, we read twitter, and try to take as much player sentiment into account before we ship something. Malphite being a good example from last patch. We pulled him on the last possible day we could, because we learned about the prevalence of support Malphite in China, and how the playstyle is something that players there really care about. Rather than say "too bad", we opted to pull the changes in order to make sure we were confident we weren't killing the playstyle players cared about. We do things like that quite frequently, sadly though it's not always apparent. We're (the balance team) is currently building a strategy for how we can communicate with the playerbase not just in NA and EU, but in all our regions, but it's taking some time. We're only 10 guys, and the communication bridge to gap there is massive.

To end this off. If you feel like you need to leave League at the end of the season I strongly encourage you to do so, but maybe check back in 6 months or a year, maybe you'll find the game has changed for the better and want to come back. Or maybe you'll have found something else that gets you excited to power on your computer whenever you come home, that's a totally fine alternative too. Gaming is all about tastes and preferences, and if we we're not offering what you want right now, maybe we will again in the future. Thank you for your thoughtful post man, it definitely had me thinking on my walk home last night. God speed!

Asyrite

The Yetii Rider8 votes

The simple solution to fear of the jungle for laners is to make wards purchasable again, but we know you won't do that because it would push the vision load onto supports again. However, the fact of the matter is that the reason people won't push in lane is because the map is too dark. That is a change Riot made intentionally, and it has influenced a lot of how laning phases go these days.

Another way you could make laners feel more free without making junglers weaker is to just take away their random true damage nuke with a % movement speed steal. Seriously, this is completely ridiculous. You have champions that are designed to function as junglers. They have LeeSin Zac Khazix Elise Gragas RekSai Shaco mobility specifically designed to allow them to get in and get kills with their allies. This is installed in their kits. The addition of item 3706 was completely unnecessary. Either junglers are balanced in their kits, or they are not. They do not need a low cooldown 5th ability that gives them a point and click slow and speed boost. That is a large amount of power. An extreme amount of power. It is up far more often than similar summoner spells like summoner 14 orsummoner 3 and there's really just no reason for it! If you think champions like Lee Sin or Rek'Sai are unable to kill enemies often enough with their kits, then they need more damage or higher ratios in their kits. The abilities that have their own cooldowns, and counterplay. They do not need part of their power budget installed in an ability that is point and click and gives them an additional speed boost on top of them already having decent speed as melee champions.

Honestly, if you can justify why ganking junglers deserve what is essentially a fifth ability (not a summoner spell), then I'm all ears. Otherwise this seems like a lot of excess power on otherwise completely balanced kits.

As for why it feels like the top brass are calling the shots, the best example I can give you is that of Talon .

I can't find a link but there was a discussion after Kassadin's rework and LeBlanc's Q was changed to Sigil of Malice from Sigil of Silence. People asked why Kassadin and LeBlanc would lose their targeted Silence while Talon's Cutthroat remains the same. Riot replied with "we think Talon's silence is a problem as well but we don't want to remove it because people would ask questions like 'why are you nerfing Talon, he's not even a problem right now'."

A more recent example is the change to Fiddlesticks, http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-76-notes.

The balance team understood that Fiddlesticks had issues with his combo. Players were making mistakes, they were not using Drain and Terrify together correctly with the range change, and the patch notes even admit the new version might be more frustrating than the version the change was made to fix. And yet it took nearly a year for Riot to revert this change. They only paired this usability buff with another buff while Fiddlesticks was a problem.

It seems like Riot prioritizes champions that are widely considered to be "too weak" or "too strong" in their balance changes, this constant flow of whack-a-mole, and it feels like important changes that actually affect how mains enjoy or play their champions are left in the dust until those champions are deemed too weak or too strong.

Then there's bugs and how they affect balance. God this is annoying.

The most blatant example of this is Sona's Power Chord - Diminuendo. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/patch-38-notes-0

Sona's passive NEVER WORKED before Patch 3.8. It seemed to reduce the numbers that were displayed but not the actual damage dealt. It took Riot years to even notice this bug and when they finally fix it? They immediately nerf it. Sona players never got to experience the actual Power Chord - Diminuendo as it was written because it was bugged for so long and then immediately nerfed as a compensation for actually fixing it. So all the times that I used Power Chord - Diminuendo before patch 3.8 thinking that I was reducing people's damage for 4 seconds, I was actually reducing their damage for 0 seconds. And then when Riot decides to tell me "hey we fucked up, but here, we fixed it. Also it's nerfed." How am I supposed to take that, as a Sona player?

Another great example is Garen's Villain passive. Garen was heavily nerfed like three times after the juggernaut update because he was dealing too much damage. Then Riot fixes a bug where his Villain passive was having him deal % true damage to his targets based on HIS maximum health instead of THEIRS. Obviously this is a huge difference in true damage that Garen was dealing, but did it come with any reverts to his previous nerfs? No. He was left weak because he was being balanced around a state where his bug was out of control, then the bug was fixed and he was left with the previous balance changes.

If you think that Riot has done any job of trying to demonstrate that the balance team is on the players' side, well, here are some examples I'm showing you of times where your talk has overshadowed your walk.

Then there's champions like Maokai, Evelyn and Olaf. Champions that were just too dominant at the higher levels of play, so Riot comes in with a hammer and RUINS them.

Olaf lost his passive armor penetration on his ultimate without any significant changes to his base damage or base stats. His W was so weak the base AS buff had to be DOUBLED for it to feel like an actual ability.

Maokai lost his ultimate and gained...ugh. Maokai may be more balanced now but he's just not fun to play anymore. Not to mention, when he was first reworked his E was changed to have the % health damage front-loaded instead of scaling. Then later it was changed back to have the damage scale with rank again.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-710-notes - Sapling Toss damage changed from 6/6.5/7/7.5/8% of a target's maximum health to 8% of the target's maximum health at all ranks.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-716-notes - Sapling Toss damage changed from 8% of a target's maximum health at all ranks to 6/6.5/7/7.5/8% of a target's maximum health.

So...it really seems like Riot took a hammer to Maokai just to get him out of pro play with absolutely no idea what direction they were planning to take him in. Since then they've been floundering to try and make him have some kind of identity.

I have raised concerns about this point on two separate occasions: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ws2o7EUk-what-exactly-is-the-goal-of-maokais-update https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/UYHP1khA-maokais-supposed-to-be-a-hearty-tank-who-wades-into-combat

And neither discussion received any red attention.

Then there's Evelyn. Just...Just Evelyn.

So yeah. As a long time player I really don't want to think that Riot is my enemy, but I have no illusions about them being my friend either.

I have done my best here to vocalize nearly all of my opinions on the subject of Riot's balancing team (except for the subject I am most passionate about, which I have documented fully over here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/G47qqkqF-what-the-actual-hell-meddler), so I hope that you read over this and try to understand, Asyrite. A lot of players have a long memory.

sirwaterfles2 votes

Main thing that keeps me comming back is my team. Lucky there are some tournaments outside of league because flexq offers really little. Im getting older so my time is getting limited and so is my ability to tolerate 20 min stompfest flamewars. What im looking for ,if i do manage to find an hour, is a 45 min strategic battle. And the format that i want to set up is 2 practice nights (can be even just 1 game) and an "important" game(s) on the weekend. A bit the same as a pubfootball(soccer)team. 2 nights of just having fun with the bros and than the one day were you defend your teams honor vs the fireguys, the guys that work in the factury, the guys who live around leprechaunmountain, the buraucrats of the dmv, the archrivals from the only other pub in town,... flexq is just none like this and i would really love it if they came with a new version of ranked teams.

RiotRiot MapleNectar6 votes

You're touching on something that we're also very interested in! More on that to come :)

Synnx75 votes

To start off, I just wanted to say that we, Riot, do care when people choose to stop playing League.

Stopped right here. The only thing u care are some 20 LC$ boys

RiotRiot MapleNectar16 votes

That's your prerogative. If you're going to be so closed minded into thinking that we don't care, then there's no convincing you.

DunkinNoobs3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPKccG7T,comment-id=0041,timestamp=2017-08-29T17:05:23.143+0000)

Is it the ability to more consistently carry a game when you rock the lane phase and go 6/0? Is it giving a different distribution of damage and durability to champs?

I'm not OP, but speaking personally, I have had multiple games just this week where I've been 6/0 or better at the 15-20 minute mark and still wanted to surrender because my team was legitimately that useless and I didn't want to trash my KDA in a game I didn't think we could win. The amount of influence that the rest of your team (and bot lane in particular) has is absurd and it is unbelievable how often I can be very, very fed and still feel completely helpless. Hell, I had a game this week where we lost at 23 minutes and I ended the game with a 4k gold lead over my lane opponent, but it doesn't matter because their adc has a 3k gold lead on mine and adcs>all right now if they manage to get a lead and have an ardent bot following them around.

RiotRiot MapleNectar6 votes

There's definitely some work that needs to be done to make it NOT feel like bot lane decides matches. I think part of it is perception, part of it's reality. But I've certainly been feeling similar strains in my games recently. I've found that part of it is matchmaking, where I'll have people on my team who are several divisions below me matching up against people who are several divisions higher, which just makes for a bad time. The other part is things like Ardent providing a bit too large of a power spike early in the game.

LankPants5 votes

Honestly, I think ADCs generally just need a solid slap. They've felt overwhelming for the better part of 5 years at this point. I think the only real problem with Ardent at this point is one of design, it would be a better item if it supported the whole team rather than only ADCs specifically.

ZaneShadow1 votes

Wow that was really cool of you. Thanks for writing that, for all us players. I'm knew to league compared to most of you but glad there's guys like you. :)

As for minion block, I'm sure this is a bigger issue for high skill players. From my lowly elo mind, could you have minions cancel their attacks and step to the side while simultaneously having the champion move around, creating a 50/50 split?

Not why I wrote this. Thanks again! I'm looking forward to a long time forward with league! Love the game and the community!

RiotRiot MapleNectar6 votes

Welcome to League man! We're happy to have you along for the ride :) Having minions path around like that would be really wonky for trying to last hit with things like skill shots if I could intentionally make the creeps step aside by approaching them. There's a few other things we want to try out, but thanks for the suggestion man!

horsa3 votes

I'm in d5, like OP is, and the rank system's faults really shine there. After 2 losses at 0 lp my hopes of climbing are gone, and the only way is down. A few losses at d5 0 lp hurt your mmr so bad it's almost worse than being demoted. After 2 or 3 losses my gains instantly go from +22 to +13 and -24, meaning just because of those 2 or 3 losses my hopes of climbing become slim to none. It's really hard to improve from d5 because if d5 is your rank you have to grind games to improve, but the variance that comes with grinding games at your "true rank" hurts so much for d5 players. Loss streaks destroy you and win streaks barely help. I honestly would rather minimize the "tier safety net" if it meant not destroying your mmr. The "tier safety net" is more of a bottom tier bear trap as once you land in this net it locks you up for good. Every time I get demoted I'm able to grind back to d5 but once I'm there I know if I can't continue my winstreak from p1 straight to d4 i'll be trapped in d5 again. I'd imagine this is similar across tiers, explaining why each tier is so populated in it's bottom rank. Maybe 0 lp losses at tiers could have some sort of demotion series where you play 2 games and have to win at least 1. I think a system like that would be WAY better than just tanking my mmr and making it extremely hard to climb. I don't know what the optimal solution is but the way it is right now is not the best it could be, thanks for reading if you did.

Theorchero80 votes

+1, totally agree.

Snowballing is so fucking retarded this season, it's honestly the most unfun season I've ever experienced as a player. I had more fun dealing with hyperfarmed yi and Udyrs with feral flare than dealing with this bullshit. What's worse is that they are fucking us for two goddamn months because of their precious esports. They refuse to shift the meta from this cancer because they don't want to destabilize the worlds patch, even though they've had plenty of fucking time to do so.

Games end in 25 minutes, ADCs reach late game with two fucking items, and as a top and mid laner that plays primarily melees my existence is practically null. I still win most of my games and I could probably reach diamond if I really played more but I can't fucking be bothered to. Every time I reach plat 1 MMR (and play with the D5s you hate so much) I just want to fucking kill myself because of all the horrible boosted bullshit I get to deal with. Promo helper was a mistake. I really like the league system but I feel like it should be tied more to actual MMR.

ModCaptainMårvelous12 votes

The problem with the league system is certain matches arbitrarily matter more than others. Let's say it's the absolute last day of the season. You win 10 games and hit promos...then you lose three games in a row and can't taste the sweet power of welfare diamond for internet arguments. Sure, Riot's tried to bandage it (if you hit promos more times you get free wins) but it doesn't change the fact that the league system is still kinda fucky.

I'm fine with bronze -> challenger but the progression feels awful.

Karfuss27 votes

Which is why promos should be removed in its entirety.

Nowhere else in Ranked are you expected to have a 66.6% or 60% win rate (depending on which promos you're on) to climb. Why should you need it for 3 or 5 games?

I was against that progression system when they added it, and I'm still against it now. Acts only to slow down progression, and proves nothing.

The fact that Riot conceded and added a 'better luck next time here's a free win' feature is proof, to me, how stupid it actually is.

SnakDatSmilesBak2 votes

My guess is that you need that win percentage in promos to prove you belong in the elo above. RIOT thought that arbitrarily creating divisions of skill to separate players and making it hard to move between tiers would work. That's just my guess.

Karfuss14 votes

But that's the point. It doesn't prove anything.

Hell. You even SKIP divisions if promos held you back too long. You get free wins if you fail. There are so many contradictory features that there is no point in it even existing. Even if you disregard the ludicrously high win rate that is expected of you.

It's a time gate to keep you playing, and the problem is that it's so painstakingly obvious that it borders annoying.

Noblewind3 votes

That's exactly what it is. They demote everyone below their old rank at the start of the year, and the system sets you up for a long, continuous grind for a large part of the year (for most players) to get back.

The part about it that pisses me off the most is the fact that I basically have only a few months to actually play with those at my true skill level each season, the only place where I can reliably improve my skills and feel satisfied with the level of play from myself, my allies, and enemies.

FantasySniper47 votes

Are you right? Yes. Will Riot do anything about it? No. Will we miss you? Maybe. Hotel? Trivago.

glhf
Chazual Fridays3 votes

Now if we could swap out the topic creator for the Trivago guy... Let's just say I'd duo with that guy.

Pandemic Punch29 votes

K bye

HateDaddy66 votes

[{quoted}](name=Naked Villager,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPKccG7T,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-29T01:18:48.371+0000)

K bye

-1

Pandemic Punch6 votes

Oh no, what a tragedy.

TheMesa11 votes

Have a bad day?

Pandemic Punch4 votes

No, but it looks like OP did. That said, why did you ask?

HateDaddy10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Naked Villager,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPKccG7T,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-29T03:44:37.394+0000)

No, but it looks like OP did. That said, why did you ask?

The better question is why are you here?

Pandemic Punch1 votes

Hey, I was your first free bump. You should be grateful. ;-)

TheMesa10 votes

OP's sharing his feelings to the boards. It's doubtful he cares much about the numbers.

Pandemic Punch2 votes

He shouldn't care too much about my posts then. No big deal right?

General Esdeath 9 votes

Not really true, people can still dislike rude/trolling people. I do my job for experience and a workout, not the money. But I still hate rude customers.

SwiftKitten8821 votes

i agree with everything other than the 3rd to last paragraph, (about demotion)

i do feel the the ranking system is very flawed. ashow fast u climb is determined by how many games u can play. so those who is who dont have TIME to play very many ranked game. franly cant climb fast enough to get where they belong. the preseaosn demotion only makes this worse.

at the same time. the games places new players into silver.. whicvh should NEVER be done.

you can place into silver with next to zero game knowledge. i placed into silver 1 in season 3. and back then i can 100% gurarentee you.. i was no where NEAR silver 1 level

AceGeo13 votes

My Diamond 1 [Jarvain IV jungle main] friend said the same thing when the jungle got changed season 5/6 and also with the plants. But after some time off from the game [a year or so] he played a game and is back addicted. My friend, HateDaddy, you might just need a year off. The points you made are unquestionably true, as I've played since the Lucian patch. But all the new crap they end up adding, and the new metas/ gamepace actually end up being pretty fun. I will say, though, looking back at old League screenshots, the feeling of the game back in season 3 was crazy fun. I don't know if it was because I was new, or because of your explicitly mentioned points. Like, Nasus was fun to play back then, but like you said, the new champs and CC ridiculousness/ damage op makes him feel lackluster. BUT, that's why they gave him a buff to his Q cd when he ults. Maybe I'm completely cluster-brained right now, but point is, a game feels stale when it sits the same for too long. That's why URF isn't available year round.

Zero Shingetsu11 votes

I agree with just about everything in here. If I were playing for anything other than a hobby, I'd be quitting by now too. I can tell you if my primary game did some of the balance-related things League has been doing, I'd be finding a new profession. It used to be really fun, and it still has the potential to be fun again. But it's lost a lot of its shimmer with the most recent host of changes, and it seems like their trend is down instead of up.

HateDaddy9 votes

{quoted}

I agree with just about everything in here. If I were playing for anything other than a hobby, I'd be quitting by now too. I can tell you if my primary game did some of the balance-related things League has been doing, I'd be finding a new profession. It used to be really fun, and it still has the potential to be fun again. But it's lost a lot of its shimmer with the most recent host of changes, and it seems like their trend is down instead of up.

It is a hobby, it's just not fun anymore.

Akali is SO HOT9 votes

Bye mom I'll miss u

HateDaddy13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KPKccG7T,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-08-29T01:35:44.599+0000)

Bye mom I'll miss u

love u

U can catch me in the doom community mapping and rocking kids at www.zdaemon.org and/or www.zandronum.org. I'm supposed to tell you to buy the doom2.wad but honestly, it's the internet - you know what to do.

Kloqdq9 votes

This problem is for sure 2 fold. First, games are snowballing quickly because the game has so many new elements that lead to stacking leads in the winning sides favour to much. Dragons, new kits that avoid damage, allow easy dives or tower taking, new heavy damage dealing items, and a whole list of other things. Many of these I feel do get checked to avoid issues but whenever something like Duskblade gets through, it leads to the creep of many different elements within league. This leads us to the current issue of just league being far faster than previously.

The second issue is games were purposely made to be quicker for Pro Play. This is in my mind a large issue in itself that should also be considered. Pro play in my mind is something we should keep balancing watch over and I am find with it being considered when we do balance. My problem is the way Riot wants to balance Pro. Riot has actively worked to make the games quicker for pros and viewers and in turn make it seem more like Overwatch, or something. This in my mind has had negative effects on the casual experience and the pro player/viewer experience. No one likes short games because often those are stomps. Hell even in Overwatch or Paladins or whatever, no one cares for short 5 minute stomps. This is in turn faulty logic and hurts the best aspect of League. The long brawls of back and forth fighting.

For me, my favourite moments have always been the games that feel like they could go either way at any moment but always are somewhat close. Games that sometimes lead to rushing back doors, making explosive plays at 40 minutes to get a massive lead, etc. Games that start and end within 25 minutes are the worst games because they did not show anything interesting. They weren't fun and competitive matches.

So these two elements all come together to create the Season 7 experience. A snowball, one-sided stomp fest that saps the fun out of the game for a lot of people. That is my issue with league on the grand scale. I really hope season 8 slows the game back down so we can have games that aren't like that.

Mordepool4 votes

This. A thousand times this

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