Permaslow passive, point and click harass that can crit, AOE global ult, huge heal + cleanse

HateDaddy·May 6, 2015·327 votes·12,152 views

And an aoe buff that boosts his allies stats with a passive that increases his AD and MS.

See? If you only name strengths, the functions of a kit and neglect to acknowledge or speak about the champions weaknesses and counterplay all together, you can make anything sound overpowered. And this is one of the worst champions in the game currently.

Please be mindful of this when discussing champion balance because it's hard to have any real discussion with anyone when they refuse to accept or acknowledge basic counterplay and weaknesses. If you refuse to do this, it's plain as day you aren't trying to actually discuss anything but that you're trying convince very narrow minded people that you're right with shortsighted skewed information.

Thanks friends

154 Comments

BorfinMay 6, 201567 votes

i'm upvoting a hatedaddy thread

what the fuck

HateDaddyMay 6, 201573 votes

{quoted}

i'm upvoting a hatedaddy thread

what the fuck

HEY

watch your fucking mouth, no cussing

SerBlaiseMay 6, 201524 votes

'Language!'

Jeddy017May 6, 201516 votes

I enjoyed Age of Ultron.

RecluseeMay 6, 20153 votes

"Do you kiss your mom with that mouth?" XD

KANYE OBAMA GODMay 6, 20151 votes

I'm not cussing you're cussing you son of a bitch

HateDaddyMay 6, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ducky Sinky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ahiUhEvE,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2015-05-06T20:10:50.090+0000)

I'm not cussing you're cussing you son of a bitch

Come the fuck on man, there's kids who browse these fucking forums and you wanna talk like that? Do you kiss your mother with those fucking cuss stained lips?

TotalisMay 6, 201515 votes

IKR. he even still replies to every comment on his own thread, and yet im still upvoting

HateDaddyMay 6, 201528 votes

{quoted}

IKR. he even still replies to every comment on his own thread, and yet im still upvoting

I'm a man of the people

AnruiMay 6, 20152 votes

You are the one we deserve!

SociopathFriendMay 6, 20155 votes

But not the one we need v

ChargeItDownMidMay 6, 201514 votes

[deleted]

HateDaddyMay 6, 201512 votes

{quoted}

The sad part is that gangplank sounds weak even when you only list his strengths XD

You can list only 1 strength of annie (instant aoe stun) or kalista (infinite mobility) and it would sound more op than the entire kit listed.

None of that sounds weak when you only name it's base strengths and functions

When you realize it's gangplank, then you're reminded it's only a cannon minion and not an actual champion.

ChargeItDownMidMay 6, 20155 votes

[deleted]

HateDaddyMay 6, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Actually, it sounds weak because there was no hard cc and no mobility listed (would have sounded much stronger if you put aoe mobility in the front). It is like Nasus. You can list all the strengths you want on that champion, the fact that your list will not include hard cc, mobility, or ranged attack will make it sound average at best. A champion pretty much needs one of those three to sound threatening given the state of the game.

Nah I don't think they do, you could assume their lack of hard cc would imply overloaded power in the rest of their seemingly straight forward kit. Think of prenerf syndra. Yes she's immobile but she can gib anything.

This example was also one of the most extreme cases as its one of the worst champions in the game, not to mention you identify it as GP right away and think garbage. But nevertheless, my point still stands.

ChargeItDownMidMay 6, 20152 votes

[deleted]

HateDaddyMay 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

O-o pre-nerf syndra had a hard cc (and a really good one pre-nerf).

Also, you can't really assume riot would properly compensate for the lack of hard cc, range, or mobility since they never do that. Mobility is pretty much universally undercompensated for and ranged is usually undercompensated for. The lack of a hard cc is the only one of the three that is properly compensated for and even then, the lack of cc rarely signifies an overloaded kit unless the champion has ranged or mobility.

As a result, the combination of all three (lack of hard cc, mobility, and ranged) pretty much insures an average at best kit due to how riot compensates for those three attributes.

I can name a champion that none of this applies to and is currently top tier: Shyv. Sure, technically she has hard CC but it's really weak. She's reatively immobile, just fast. She isn't ranged and her ranged abilities aren't overbearing. She just becomes too tanky to kill, can easily get to a back line and mauls squishy targets with base damage. In terms of mobility, she's actually relatively balanced since her mobility spell ties into her ult. She's just unbalanced and poor design because when she's good, she can't be kited, she's almost impossible to kill and her decision points start and end at "do I run at you? Yes."

You're not incorrect, but there are exceptions. And as I noted, my case was rather extreme given its the second worst champion in the game. I could probably name someone line Ashe and do the same, but she's getting reworked into ranged pre rework Skarner. Rip.

ChargeItDownMidMay 6, 20153 votes

[deleted]

HateDaddyMay 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You can't call shyvanna immobile. She seems immobile because mobility creep has gotten so out of hand that she is slower by comparison. However, she has both a speed boost and a dash.

And yes I realize that gp is extremely weak. Just found it funny that you were going out of your way to make his kit sound good and yet he still sounded tame because of some glaring things missing.

Even if that's true, which I don't think it necessarily is, the concept of what I'm saying still stands. We can agree to disagree on what's overpowered and perhaps this was a poor example (I mean, it IS gangplank, so I'm not totally in disagreement) but we both realize what I'm saying about discussion here is spot on.

You are right about Shyv though, she's just mobile enough.

The Red GoatMay 28, 20151 votes

bout to say, Nunu is a champ with no hard cc and he can be pretty strong when it comes to taking jungle creeps big/small/baron/dragon and then can destroy towers just by having his w up and on an ad built ally.

BakedLotionMay 6, 20158 votes

Meanwhile Lee Sin

Infinite mobility no resource sustain ranged poke insane slow shields two gap closers nuke with low cd knockup high damage attack speed steroid

I'm prob missing a lot, lol Hes not op right now but yeah

HateDaddyMay 6, 201523 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Lee Sin

Infinite mobility no resource sustain ranged poke insane slow shields two gap closers nuke with low cd knockup high damage attack speed steroid

I'm prob missing a lot, lol Hes not op right now but yeah

And now that tank Junglers are strong, he legit falls off late game. So the burden is on him to use his early power to snowball the game early or risk automatically losing late. That's perfectly fine, that's how it always should've been.

AlëkMay 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

And now that tank Junglers are strong, he legit falls off late game. So the burden is on him to use his early power to snowball the game early or risk automatically losing late. That's perfectly fine, that's how it always should've been.

I honestly dont think his damage was his main problem anyway. It was his utility and capacity to fit in with any comp. In low elo he's bad. Most people in high elo will build him tanky anyway. He's not OP but his kit is overloaded. A skilled lee sin is god tier. Because of his playstyle any skill level below master lee sin player leaves him as an average champ.

If a pro lee sin player uses lee expect a nightmare. There is no way a casual lee sin player will be able to use lee to his full capacity. And lee is only OP when used at his highest skill level. The opposite can be said for champs like Zed, Kalista, Nidalee etc. Play a few games to get over the hump of their difficult to use skillsets and u reap huge rewards, and this is the same on all levels of play.

sparkye3May 6, 20154 votes

But the same thing can be said of Udyr , as anyone who really knows how to play him is also god tier. This then becomes a question of skill not a champ being OP.

AlëkMay 6, 20154 votes

{quoted}

But the same thing can be said of , as anyone who really knows how to play him is also god tier. This then becomes a question of skill not a champ being OP.

True but udyr's counters are much more defined than Lee's since lee has the one thing udyr doesn't hae. Ranged gapclosers, and burst. Udyr gets kited so hard its very hard for him to be in any kind of competitive play, especially in the current tank meta where reaching the ADC will be virtually impossible against a coordinated team. On the other hand he is still probably one of the best splitpushers and 1v1ers in the game. He and trundle and riven suffer the same dilemma really. In skirmishes they are incredibly strong, but in teamfights trundle and udyr get kited incredibly hard, while riven just becomes too easy to kill unless she's really skilled.

Still there are no OP champs in my opinion. OP was release rek'sai who could instagib with 3 Q's. OP was release xin zhao, and jax. Currently there are only champs who excel with certain core items or just fit in the meta extremely well. Ofcourse there are also the champs with problematic kits, but they are just generally overloaded and toxic for the game not OP. Lee is one of those.

The Red GoatMay 28, 20151 votes

How would you consider Nidalee then?

To try and be unbiased as possible (cause I hate Nidalee) I can recognize she is like Lee Sin and others in she is stronger the more skilled the player. But I can never not call that spear OP. Presuming the Nidalee player is skilled and has good aim, you can't always dodge the spear. You also can't not be hurt by the spear even if you run into it to stop the bonus damage proc because Nid can follow up landing the spear with her level 1 ult form (which needs to be put back to level 6).

Even if you can avoid the spears Nidalee can pick off any of your allies that can't and then you get snowballed by her when she is fed off your all your allies. While this is possibly less true for the low elo/skill games, it's pretty likely if you're in the mid range where you can get high skill opponent but low skill allies. The size of said range being massive for League considering the player base.

AlëkMay 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Goat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ahiUhEvE,comment-id=000300000000000000000002,timestamp=2015-05-28T19:15:14.714+0000)

How would you consider then?

To try and be unbiased as possible (cause I hate Nidalee) I can recognize she is like Lee Sin and others in she is stronger the more skilled the player. But I can never not call that spear OP. Presuming the Nidalee player is skilled and has good aim, you can't always dodge the spear. You also can't not be hurt by the spear even if you run into it to stop the bonus damage proc because Nid can follow up landing the spear with her level 1 ult form (which needs to be put back to level 6).

Even if you can avoid the spears Nidalee can pick off any of your allies that can't and then you get snowballed by her when she is fed off your all your allies. While this is possibly less true for the low elo/skill games, it's pretty likely if you're in the mid range where you can get high skill opponent but low skill allies. The size of said range being massive for League considering the player base.

Amongst all the multiple form champions I'd say nidalee is actualy one of the easiest to use simply because her mechanics are pretty binary. Elise is a champ who requires a lot of interaction and decision making when using each form so it takes quite a lot of skill to play her effectively. She also got gutted to shit tier which is a true shame amongst shames considering her kit is probably one of the most balanced kit wise. First you have to understand that with champions with numerous forms its VERY easy to overload them simply because of the large amount of spells in their repertoire. Due to this, one spell can never be too strong unless it has specific conditions that doesn't make it overbearing (stacking mechanisms, timers, things that have counterplay, etc.)

Nidalee is a champ thats very binary in the fact that she has some basic rules. Q Q Q Q Q until target hit, >> Cougar W E Q or whatever. That is what she will do 99.9% of the time. When ganked or need to escape >>Cougar W. Compared to other multiple form champs her skill floor is surprisingly low, but the thing about ALL hybrid champs like nid is they ALL have high skill caps because the more abilities you have, the more plays you can make. So you have to understand why nidalee is strong right now. She has one ability that is quite a bit overbearing on ALL levels of play (her spear obv), however it corresponds with an ability that might be just as strong (cougar Q). Since its %missing hp dmg and since you most likely took a lot of damage from the spear, it shows just how effective and overbearing her basic combo can be. Thus, nidalee is considered extremely overbearing, ESPECIALLY jungle nidalee where you could never predict where the spear was coming from. Whereas the spear is now considerably easier to dodge its main problem still remains....

SHE HAS TOO MUCH SHIT IN HER KIT. Plain and simple. For a champion with so much potential damage, she has too much utility and mobility. However, unlike Lee Sin who has the same problem, the ability to use all of those skillfully and effectively is not restricted to high level play. She can build bruiser and assassinate squishies just as well when she build toplane bruiser nidalee as well. This is also extremely overbearing since she can't be fucked over the moment she goes in for the squishy. She won't get blown up, and if she fails the initial assassination she can sustain and survive through a teamfight with her heal and mobility. AP nid is more risk more reward so an entirely different boat, but her play is even more binary than bruiser nid (its literally entirely reliant on landing Q's) soooo yeah. That's my view on nidalee and why she's so hated.

BakedLotionMay 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And now that tank Junglers are strong, he legit falls off late game. So the burden is on him to use his early power to snowball the game early or risk automatically losing late. That's perfectly fine, that's how it always should've been.

did u not read the part where i said he wasnt op right now? guess not.

HateDaddyMay 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

did u not read the part where i said he wasnt op right now? guess not.

Why are you so upset lol

I can't make a response to someone? What I said is true, do you still think Lee is OP or something?

BakedLotionMay 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why are you so upset lol

I can't make a response to someone? What I said is true, do you still think Lee is OP or something?

Did i not just say he wasnt? Two times now ..holy shit learn some reading comprehension

HateDaddyMay 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Did i not just say he wasnt? Two times now ..holy shit learn some reading comprehension

I honestly don't know why you're getting so worked up over this. If you think Lee is OP, that's your deal man.

Bethor KookalianMay 6, 20157 votes

GP basically has no counterplay and IS overpowered as a kit design, that's why he's been nerfed as hard as he has been and why he's slated for a rework. A broken overpowered kit design can still be nerfed into oblivion(see Evelynn 1.0 for an obvious example). The problem is that people conflate kit design and numbers balance when talking about the overall power of a champion.

IcyPepperMay 6, 20155 votes

HateDaddy took a break with a divided audience, and he came back strong.

I give this thread a fucking (sorry Captain America) 10/10

insaiyanbaccaMay 6, 20151 votes

rofl that apology to captain america

HateDaddyMay 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

rofl that apology to captain america

I don't know if I want to call Annie overpowered or just terrible design. Either way, I would say she needs changes that give her more gameplay because it's very limited at best, if not just completely non existent.

MeesterMooMay 6, 20154 votes

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

Lil SoybeanMay 6, 20154 votes

Bookmarked in case I need to reference this in the future. Thanks.

HateDaddyMay 6, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lil Soybean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ahiUhEvE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-06T00:46:25.523+0000)

Bookmarked in case I need to reference this in the future. Thanks.

You're welcome my little bean friend

largefishMay 6, 20154 votes

Gangplank is pretty strong tho ;_;

DJ Di0May 6, 20153 votes

Nice bait. /s

Joking aside I agree wholeheartedly; I also dislike when someone's sole argument for a champion's strength is their winrate.

HateDaddyMay 6, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Di0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ahiUhEvE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-05-06T02:31:37.105+0000)

Nice bait. /s

Joking aside I agree wholeheartedly; I also dislike when someone's sole argument for a champion's strength is their winrate.

I think winrate/pickrate can be a good reference point but you can't use it as your entire argument. For example, when I see a relatively straight forward champion with a 10% + pickrate sitting right at a 50% winrate, that alone kinda tells me they're probably okay. The issue you have here is the champions skill cap because it's relative. Not to mention, you need to probably provide some evidence from pro play too as that will ultimately show the true strengths and weaknesses of a champ if they're played at that level.

Long story short, it can be used but it can't be your entire backing.

Linna ExcelMay 6, 20152 votes

I dare you to make 40% win rate ryze sound OP.

HateDaddyMay 6, 201521 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ahiUhEvE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-05-06T02:31:07.069+0000)

I dare you to make 40% win rate ryze sound OP.

Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about Ryze yet. The rework increased his skill cap by a ton and we aren't even 2 weeks into his rework yet. Give it some time, let people figure out a playstyle, a new build etc. The last thing you want is to push Riot into buffing him right out of the gates and a few months later, it turns out he was OP as shit and all the buffs did was overtune him further. That actually happens a lot.

SteelflameMay 6, 201512 votes

And you would be right. I still see a lot of people building him wrong (Hint, Luden's Echo and WotA are both something I am considering core. He can proc Ludens 4-5 times in his spell rotation if done right. I am not joking. It's honestly pathetic actually how often it goes off on his machinegun Q. WotA falls back to the fact he needs 10% CDR from somewhere, and the fact he loves spellvamp due to his almost ADC like nature of sustained damage output and the benefits of sustaining from it.).

Also, just a play tip (not pointed at your HateDaddy, just a general talking out loud), when in early lane harassing, keep an eye out for the enemy to be in the middle of minions. If he has 3-4 minions around him, snare to ensure they can't flee while E travels, and get the massive multihit. Hell, if you can catch an enemy in the middle of a minion wave lategame, snare ult E is a very valid burst tool. Or just ult E to instantly remove the minion wave, that works too. Not like you can't actually fully reset your ult's CD in the 6 seconds your passive is running lategame.

thePandevMay 6, 20152 votes

Thought you meant new Ashe with Heal and QSS lol

HateDaddyMay 6, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Thought you meant new Ashe with Heal and QSS lol

Well you wouldn't have been wrong necessarily lol

Señor KarthusMay 6, 20151 votes

I dare you to make Annie sound NOT op

Edge of DaybreakMay 6, 201541 votes

{quoted}

I dare you to make Annie sound NOT op

Stun requires 4 spell cast. Stun can be blocked by spell shields that she cannot poke off of you without losing her stun. Low range on every spell but ult. Most initiations require flash which takes 5 minutes to come up No sustain No mobility Cant scout bushes with skillshots. Anyone with 800+ range can out poke all of your non ult spells. Forced to blow the stun if you push her to tower or she misses CS. E is just an orianna e that cannot be cast on allies, doesnt give you a shield and only deals damage if someone auto attacks you. When her passive is down all of her spells offensive spells just deal damage with no other bonus effects but ult giving you Tibbers who dies fairly quickly and cant move fast enough to catch people..