I love having 400+ armor against an All AD Team

[{quoted}](name=Loken Stoneheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zsEATWgk,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2015-01-09T13:20:48.047+0000)

Can you not see the issue of a 2,300 gold item removing 3,000 gold worth of armor, and still offering another 1,500 gold worth of attack damage?

The %pen items in this game are so stupidly gold efficient that it hurts. The target only needs 43 armor for Last Whisper to be gold efficient.

THIS. This is a legitimate gripe. others in the thread are just crying boohoo cuz the AD carry on the enemy team, who spends ALL THEIR GOLD on damage, can deal some fucking damage. meanwhile, some darius in toplane with a Randy omens, hydra, Maw, and boots is crying that he can't face tank a whole enemy team and get a penta.

[{quoted}](name=Loken Stoneheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zsEATWgk,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2015-01-09T13:20:48.047+0000)

Can you not see the issue of a 2,300 gold item removing 3,000 gold worth of armor, and still offering another 1,500 gold worth of attack damage?

The %pen items in this game are so stupidly gold efficient that it hurts. The target only needs 43 armor for Last Whisper to be gold efficient.

It actually needs to negate 43 armor. The target needs to have ~120 for it to be gold efficient. It is still a problem, because you have champions that build this counter-armor item who are still really effective at killing a squishy target as well. You don't really sacrafice anything for building to counter armor-stacking, making it a no-brainer purchase.

EDIT: @OP LW on 400 armor gives a whooping 9.4% more damage. 400 armor is really effective at stopping a large portion of physical damage, LW or no.

[{quoted}](name=Loken Stoneheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zsEATWgk,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2015-01-09T13:20:48.047+0000)

Can you not see the issue of a 2,300 gold item removing 3,000 gold worth of armor, and still offering another 1,500 gold worth of attack damage?

The %pen items in this game are so stupidly gold efficient that it hurts. The target only needs 43 armor for Last Whisper to be gold efficient. EDIT: Target needs to lose 43 armor. My bad*

I mean it's funny how we talk about removing gold worth, when armor's doing the same to AD.

Can you not see the issue of a 100 armor reducing the worth of your ad by a ton?

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zsEATWgk,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2015-01-09T17:45:24.536+0000)

Let's see if you have 400 armor it will take 5 times your hp in physical damage (1+400/100) if you have 265 armor it will take 3.65 times your hp in physical damage (1+365/100)

Without the enemy having last whisper and you have 3000 hp then it will take 15000 physical damage to kill you

if the enemy had last whisper (still at 3000 hp) it would take 10950 physical damage to kill you

(the more armor you have the more effective it is to buy hp as armor/mr is a multiplier of health and the more health you have the better it is to buy armor/mr to get a higher multiplier)

I dont think you did your math right or I didn't do the armor formula right. Armor gives % reduction that begins to slowly give less, with 300 Armor being the max you would ever want without further armor being completely useless unless they have a LW, then about 420 would be. This optimal amount is about 75% physical damage reduction, increasing your health against physical damage by 75%. So someone with 1000 health would have 1750 health against physical damage and someone with 2000 health would have 3500 health against physical damage. 3000 increases to about 5250. 4000 to 7000 although only Rammus can achieve this usually. Same goes for MR. So, you are right building Health is better than Armor at a certain point but your math is off unless I am just stupid.

{quoted}

That's only going to reduce about 135 armor

Only going to reduce about 135 armor

135 armor

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Out of 400 it is ONLY going to reduce 135 of it. So basically a Last Whisper alone, if you have 400 armor, is only going to completely negate the armor of a thornmail (so a complete items worth of armor) and your ninja tabi (so 2 items worth of armor) AND 10 more.

Or maybe you have a thornmail and a sunfire cape

Those 2 items provide 145 armor

You just lost 135 armor

Congrats, you just paid 4700 gold for 10 armor and the returning damage (which is pointless since you are still taking more now that you have less armor) and at most 43 damage per second IF they are in melee range (at level 18) with sunfire cape

That was negated by only 2300 gold.

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A chain vest costs 750 and gives 40 armor

3 of them giving nothing but armor would cost you 2250 and that's 120 armor

So for 2300 gold you negate MORE than 2300 gold worth of stats...plus get 40 AD ...and applies BEFORE armor pen if you have it (runes for example)

Seems balanced >_>

Only 135 armor

Here's some math for you. Let's make Last Whisper less effective by reducing the amount of armour it can penetrate, but not getting any armour.

So, my runes and masteries, and the levels of my champion give me 75 armour, now that Last Whisper "ONLY" removes 27 of it. The amount of protection you get from 2 cloth armors.

So now your cost effective item has only negated 600 gold worth of items, and you spent 2250 on it - using your logic would reduce the effectiveness of the Last Whisper.

But, now granted, you have 10% damage reduction, instead of 75% damage reduction, and everything is hitting you for 90% of what it should hit you for, instead of 25% of what it should hit you for. And the discussion started with 'i'm still getting melted'.

All i'm saying is you'd better have an absurd amount of outgoing damage, if you plan to walk around as a glass cannon.

With my itemization, what are you actually defending against?

Ninja Tabi's = -10% damage taken from basic attacks. That description on your death recap every time you die. The "basic attacks" done to you? Reduce that by 10%. Meh.

Iceborn Gauntlet = Mana, Armour, Ability Power, Cooldown Reduction, and increased damage that slows in a small AoE.

Frozen Heart = Mana, Armour, Cooldown Reduction, and an aura which slows the attack speed of nearby attackers.

Randuin's Omen = Health, Armour, a passive which slows the attack speed of targets that attack you, and an active which slows the movement speed in a small AoE around you, that scales based off the amount of armour or magic resistance you have.

Sunfire Cape = Health, Armour, and an aura that deals magic damage in an AoE around you.

Thornmail = Armour, and a passive which returns damage received as basic attacks, back to the targets.

-10% damage received from basic attacks, as well as 30% damage received as basic attacks reflected towards the attacker. +380 armour from items alone, putting you over the armour cap for armour, meaning if and when people have armour penetration, they have to reduce you to the maximum amount of damage reduction you're allowed. +800 Mana, 60 Ability Power, 30% CDR, and 1,000 Health.

What the OP is honestly missing, is the armour penetration, that is coming from other sources.

I.E. Darius Pull, Black Cleaver - These remove the armour of the individual for all of your teammates, not just yourself. If you have 5 opponents with Last Whispers, and none of them with any additional source of armour penetration, they're strategically retarded.

Now you have a Darius with a Black Cleaver, and your core damage dealers with the Last Whispers. Now you have 85% armour penetration for those attackers, and 50% penetration for those without. Add in a Jarvan 4, and you have 100% armour penetration.

400 Armour x 85% = 340 armour vanished - and now you're left with the amount of armour I first asked you if you'd rather have instead of the 400 armour you complained about not being sufficient.

This isn't even including the 4/6% armour penetration you have from the offensive tree.

Now some ADC's late game will probably do upwards of 2,500 - 4,000 damage per second, depending on who you are. You wouldn't want to migitate as much as of that damage as possible? I don't understand your argument, or your narcissism.

it gives ad/ap still. lol.

+lastwhisper = no such thing as a tank in this game

I guess you could swap out an armor item for some mr the more armor you ahve the less efficient it is to have anymore of it since bork does magic damage ;/

And as a matter of fact BoTRK is the problem, not LW Adjust BoTRK to 6% of current health as physical damage on hit and the situation is solved

Well, I'm only talking about a direct counter to LW, nothing else here.