Can we get an AP ítem to do Grievous Wounds in early so an enemy champion with sustain is not inmortal until minute 20?
It's simply absurd having to buy 
to do grievous wounds when AD champions have 
and tanks have 
for much less gold.
boricCentaur121 votesI think riot should take the pen out of 
and put grievous wounds.
Bob the Toastr1 votesDefinitely agree. That way it costs more for mages to get max flat pen (4100 instead of 2600)
Warlord Rhinark1 votesI think riot should take the pen out of
People have been saying this for so long, but no action is being taken.
Bruh
Alzon15 votesIt’s almost like sustain is meant to counter poke, and the reason only mages don’t have early access to heal cut is because they can typically apply it from much further range (and therefore safety).
If you really want to stop healing mid fight, just take 
. It only has a 180 second cooldown. But you won’t be igniting for poke.
PlsBuffMyMain8 votesIt’s almost like sustain is meant to counter poke, and the reason only mages don’t have early access to heal cut is because they can typically apply it from much further range (and therefore safety).
If you really want to stop healing mid fight, just take
It's almost like ranged AD champs can't buy and take ignite as well.
AirKingNeo3 votesIt's almost like Executioner's Calling builds into a crappy item and is only bought situationally.
PB4UAME3 votesThe fact that the same people are saying shit like this that also tend to bitch about the ADC role being weak has me in stitches. If you cannot appreciate how goddamn powerful 
is, just because it doesn't instantly grant big huge numbers when you attack anything doesn't mean its anywhere close to a bad item.
LordGeovanni1 votesThe Marksmen role is by no means weak and even Broken with how riot keeps them but aside from fucking melees who use healing in the .... all the holes and its penetration being strong and frankly lord dominiks should be 20% of bonus pen. Mortal reminder isnt a strong item or slot effiecnt its just really good a fucking people who use and receive healing
Skeletons Grave3 votesAD ranged champs have more reliable, undodgeble, poke that doesnt cost resources.
Giving mages a way to apply grievous wounds early makes more sense since they have costs to their abilities to apply it and are not guaranteed to hit. This would also help make mages spend the full item cost on morello to get the pen which is the reason mages buy the item anyway.
I play alot of vlad and its kind of dumb that versing other mages is way easier then versing an adc or ranged auto attack reliant champ. And those champs have access to greivous wounds for only 800g.
Serika Zero1 votesIt’s almost like sustain is meant to counter poke, and the reason only mages don’t have early access to heal cut is because they can typically apply it from much further range (and therefore safety).
If you really want to stop healing mid fight, just take
Adcs literally have point and click poke with no cooldows
Light Burner1 votesIt’s almost like sustain is meant to counter poke, and the reason only mages don’t have early access to heal cut is because they can typically apply it from much further range (and therefore safety).
If you really want to stop healing mid fight, just take
God bless your soul for having a brain. Not many players understand this
ChaosReyn7 votesTack it on the orb, but give it a cooldown, so mages can't GW you on every spell rotation. more like every 2-3. Keeps a window for them to heal, but doesn't give them the ability to just play Irelia or Aatrox mid and heal 3/4 their hp back while 3 shotting you.
Hammermancer3 votesthat sounds broken so riot will probably give it to mages
i mean rylais wasn't even addressed til s7
ChaosReyn5 votesthere would still be far more broken things in game...and mages need a better answer to "rush hexdrinker and never die", especially on champs who can heal and buy it, like Irelia and Trox. Not even an answer to Hexdrinker if its Zed or Yasuo.
wildfox9T3 votesso it's fine for AD and tanks having cheap items that can permanently keep the enemy under GW,but if AP gets one with a CD it's broken?
yeah,gameplay botards in a nutshell
Hammermancer3 votesso it's fine for AD and tanks having cheap items that can permanently keep the enemy under GW,but if AP gets one with a CD it's broken?
yeah,gameplay botards in a nutshell
you already have one A, and frankly AD have them earlier because they allow melee champs to deal with sustainers in top lane and ranged champs to deal with healers in bot lane. Meanwhile there is only one AP sustainer in mid that actually sustains hard, mages simply don't need that before item 3 and are already hardlocked into buying triple pen because the items are so efficient, one is on boots, another is on an HP item, and the third is basically AP last whisper leaving 3 open slots for whatever you want to go into
let's put that into perspective
tanks: Thornmail is a tax, noone wants to build it early, tanks have zero pen items and rely on you not having enough tenacity or pen to just smash them to death. Tanks often would prefer to build more on the damage side these days simply because of how strong all the pen and %hp damage is, as well as how much CC there is vs available tenacity which requires more situational shit. Tanks often wind up armor heavy too because the only MR item that offers a good chunk of other stats for tanks would be Spirit visage and merc treads... if they're not forced to go ninja tabi and give up even more tenacity.
Assassins: Assassins very rarely wind up building Mortal reminder because that would likely give them a 4-pen build, which at that point they're wasting stats. Almost every AD assassin goes 
with only a single situational. If they're going to chose anything else it'd be 
(bad for stats do to no casting synergy and low AD) 
(not bad for what they probably want) 
Fighters: is usually terrible on them because it lacks durability, sustain, or cdr. 
is also terrible on them because it lacks HP or AD, which all ad fighters need
Marksmen: So most are crit marksmen getting 
meaning either they ditch the sustain or go down to 75% crit
AD Caster marksmen just stack pen, sometimes pentapen, but usually stick to triple pen, death's dance, GA 
Hybrid marksmen can just sorta build it
So both are usually super situational to build and require sacrifice of a slot for something underwhelming. Both items amount to in that they offer an effect that is needed on an item you only ever want once in a blue moon.
On the other hand is built on every fucking mage ever from anivia to zilean, always second or third item, the item needs nerfs if anything because frankly it offers such a perfect mix of stats. 15 pen, respectable AP, and respectable HP. Anti-magic resist items in the game are actually pretty costly both in terms of gold and losing other potential passive effects in order to swap out good stats for always worse stats that they're not exactly fun to build.
but please tell me how mages need to counter every other class even harder
LordGeovanni1 votesTanks have cheap items because they cap out at mid tier effectiveness and none of the items complement each other except 
. Fighters and tanks have been crying for ages to have their items synergise with each other and for more expensive and more effective items.
panty raider4 votesPeople forget that if poke mages could get GW so easily, it'd completely remove the "counter" sustain champs have against poke. Why would people want to have a key strength of their champ's durability negated by a early game component item when poke mages already generally have a more consistent damage output and lane priority because of their ability to poke. Not only that but as Alzon has said, ignite is a thing that will help you win an all-in as a poke mage so if you are aiming to kill them, bring ignite.
Crescent Dusk3 votes[{quoted}](name=panty raider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zqWz4nnx,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-02-18T17:14:55.620+0000)
People forget that if poke mages could get GW so easily, it'd completely remove the "counter" sustain champs have against poke. Why would people want to have a key strength of their champ's durability negated by a early game component item when poke mages already generally have a more consistent damage output and lane priority because of their ability to poke. Not only that but as Alzon has said, ignite is a thing that will help you win an all-in as a poke mage so if you are aiming to kill them, bring ignite.
Because mages have this thing called mana which already limits how often they can apply GW.
LTK KoRo3 votesBecause mages have this thing called mana which already limits how often they can apply GW.
And these items remove said weakness.
Thilmer2 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zqWz4nnx,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-02-18T21:25:53.557+0000)
Yeah, because you totally have one of those ítems during the laning phase. Oh, wait…
Hethalean1 votesThe component item that builds into those does the same thing, and it can easily be your first back.
wildfox9T2 votesit's almost like riot didn't hard gut the mana pool of mages a while ago and those items are the only thing that doesn't make them run OOM after the first 3 abilities...
Thilmer2 votesit's almost like riot didn't hard gut the mana pool of mages a while ago and those items are the only thing that doesn't make them run OOM after the first 3 abilities...
Riot has been nerfing the mana of AP champions repeteadly since season 4, no less.
LordGeovanni1 votesif you are using tanks to bolsiter that then yes But at the same time they have been lowering the mana costs of mage spells.
Crescent Dusk2 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zqWz4nnx,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2019-02-18T21:25:53.557+0000)
lmao you don't get those items into later game. Most lanes are determined before even lv6.
LTK KoRo1 votesBecause mages have this thing called mana which already limits how often they can apply GW.
you were talking about proccing grievous wounds. I guess every AD champion buys executioner before lvl 6 then?
Crescent Dusk1 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zqWz4nnx,comment-id=00060000000000020000,timestamp=2019-02-19T07:40:19.078+0000)
you were talking about proccing grievous wounds. I guess every AD champion buys executioner before lvl 6 then?
It's 800 gold, virtually 500 gold cheaper than last chapter and something you should definitely be taking into Nasus/Sylas/pre-nerf Akali match ups to begin with. I'd even use it against Kayle or Xin Zhao.
LTK KoRo1 votesi don't think anyone bought executioner at first back. Bramble sure, but executioner?
Crescent Dusk1 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zqWz4nnx,comment-id=0006000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-19T20:21:57.902+0000)
i don't think anyone bought executioner at first back. Bramble sure, but executioner?
By lv4-5 I already have enough for it and I buy it without second thought on my Garen to trounce the fotm Nasus showing up in top lane since a lot of what these nasus do is try to freeze at tower and just heal back trades through minions, so I keep the pressure on them much more easily to set them further behind. Plus it means they can't 1v1 me by lv6 ever. If they approach a single minion they eat a Q and can't heal the damage back up without being threatened by another Q or E by the time GW wears off.
Durzaka2 votesMana hasnt been a serious hindrance for a majority of champions since maybe season 3.
Hethalean3 votesIf Grievous Wounds wasn't already stapled on a Rush Item for every mage currently, I would agree. However, since the item it builds is mages #1 item now anyway, I don't see why it should be added. Grievous Wounds should be a itemization decision, not a freebe really.
Thilmer1 votesIf Grievous Wounds wasn't already stapled on a Rush Item for every mage currently, I would agree. However, since the item it builds is mages #1 item now anyway, I don't see why it should be added. Grievous Wounds should be a itemization decision, not a freebe really.
Then create a completely new ítem that is not core on mages.
Hethalean1 votesThat's what they tried to do with Morellos actually, but failed sooooo not sure.
wildfox9T3 voteswelcome to the AP world,where your itemization sucks but people still say that it's op
LTK KoRo2 votesap itemization in it's core is very strong but it's situational items are mediocre or bad. 
these items are either very strong or are MUCH better than their AD counterparts. Seriously, find me any AD item which removes any of your mana issues, gives you a great damage stats+damaging passive and gives whooping 20% of CDR. this sweetie is really strong.
But on the other hand items like 
are either too situational, too overnerfed or too niche.
wildfox9T3 votesmany AD don't have mana issues on the first place because they have lower mana cost on their spells (and some being manaless) and/or their mana pool didn't get gutted for making room for those items,so AD items don't need to give a lot of mana on the first place
is the first thing that comes in my mind (even though i could make the same kind of comparison with an AD item and you couldn't find something that perfectly matches it),which also gives a lot of MS buffs
although i agree that and are stronger than the average of items,the others are just too bad
also gives 18 pen vs 25 MR + an "useful" passive just for making an example,i don't think that they are too strong
anyway in your list you are not taking into account the build paths which are awful on AP items with combine costs that can go over 1000g and nothing but some stats before in most cases (no actives/passives)
Aatrox Airlines4 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zqWz4nnx,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2019-02-18T21:25:04.285+0000)
Seriously, find me any AD item which removes any of your mana issues, gives you a great damage stats+damaging passive and gives whooping 20% of CDR.
except the "whole mana issues" part, only gives 250
if obtainable
LTK KoRo1 voteswell it's certainly possible to run out of mana with Triforce, but i can agree it's great at everything above too.
LordGeovanni1 votesTriforces's damage stats are shit only gives a really strong passive. the amount of health it gives is shit too
PB4UAME3 votesTo your first point is even stronger, and the 25% crit chance it gives provides far more of a damage boost than the Echo procs do.
Ackelope2 votesdo keep in mind that that's only really the case on champions that can actually make use of most of the stats of essence reaver. Crit chance is not as universal a benefit to AD champions as the echo effect is on mages, not all ad champions are actually spending their gold efficiently on crit, as they won't be autoing enough to make use of it, or buying flat AD is better for their ability/burst damage and fits their playstyle better. If you discount the mana restore passive, essence reaver is 113.5% gold efficient which is quite good, but if you effectively take away the crit, since you're buying it on a champion who won't make use of it, you're dropping down to around 82.3% gold efficiency, not considering the passive. So you've either gotta find a LOT of use out of that mana restore passive, or buy something else.
now that we've covered that bit, i would like to add on that, while for people that can make use of all of the stats, even discounting the mana restore, ER is an excellent stat stick, it's not like options don't exist for other types of AD champions. You've also got and , and as excellent AD starting items, obviously depending on what sort of AD champion you are.
ChaosReyn2 votesThe biggest issue that nobody's mentioning is how AD champs without mana bars still rush essence reaver for its stats without even caring for crit chance. >.>
(glares at Riven and Rengar)
And yes, while that crit chance isn't as needed on all AD champs, to say it's not universal is a little misleading. I don't think there's any AD champion that would ever complain about a crit, even if they're playing a full burst caster assassin that should never need crits to 100/0 you. But there are some who would complain more if they didn't than others.
Beerstein1 votesSo basically nerf life steal on all champions across the board?
ChaosReyn4 votesPardon the bluntness, but yeah, pretty much.
The champions who are supposed to heal from attacking are healing a lot by having both lifesteal and the natural healing from their kit. If Rhaast is already gaining back 50% of his life through his ult, another like 35% through his W, healing from his E and lifestealing, you can literally nuke him to 1hp, and by the end of that combo with maybe 2 autoattacks, he's back to full as is. Maybe you can take that as "nerf Rhaast" but that doesn't solve the issue for the other champions that can do similar things with their abilities. As already called out earlier, Irelia and Aatrox both do this, and both have been seen in mid lane often...while they're definitely not Rhaast level healing, building lifesteal on them in addition to all their natural health gain makes them pretty oppressive. They live your burst, heal through lifestealing + kit no less than 2/3 your burst damage before your cooldowns are back up, and probably killed you in the process cause you're on CD.
Unless we'd rather have riot individually nerf all the champions that gain a boatload of life (even though it'd ruin their kits) the more logical answer is to tone down items that further supplement that massive life gain so that the people who don't naturally heal can still have some and those that do don't heal from 300 hp to full during a trade.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesI'm sorry, but I don't see the same comparison here. A majority of mages tend to be burst, or have longer range, or more frequent longer range abilities. A tank's GV is only when they're auto, and Executioner is whatever range the adc has, but most ADCs tend to have those abilities less frequently, tying it down to their range.
On top of that, Mages have burst, including early game when everyone is relatively squishy. DPS champions and tanks, outside of assassins, tend to have more drawn out periods of damage. They need GV early in the fight, because Sustain is better against DPS than burst. Mages are more likely to kill their target before they can respond with their sustain. Sure, the sustain user might be able to keep their health above burst range (Looking at you Vlad), but it's because Mage's have such an easier time killing at higher HP values. They shouldn't also be able to slowly widdle down opponents into range while having that.
Jmman2 votesSo what about the non-long range sustain damage mages? Or the AP bruisers. Screw them because of burst mages? That is like saying nerf all AD items because of ADCs. You honestly don't know there are more than just burst mages? I mean the only reason you only see burst mages is because that is all the ap items cater for.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesA majority of mages tend to be burst.
It's almost like I said this. We play a game where any item can be used by anyone, save for like, 3 items. That means any item put in place for AP bruisers, can be equally capable of being used by the very folk who probably shouldn't have it that early. Said AP bruisers though, tend to have more defense anyways, Morde and his Shield, Sylas with his Shield and healing, Swain and his healing, Diana and her shield (If we count her intended design.)
I can flip your words around on you, by the way. That's like saying we should buff all AP Casters because of the few AP Bruisers we have.
Jmman2 votesI don't understand the bad thinking. Burst mages are going to buy the same items. If they do buy the bruisers / Damage over time items then their damage will go down because of the trade off of defense items.
Why don't ADCs build bruiser items. Its the same thing. Just now all the brusiers / sustain mages have to build burst only. This puts champs in a too strong or too weak slot.
You are just bias and can't see AP has the same subclasses and general types of champs like AD. However, AP has been all pigeon holed into one type of item group. How would you feel about 
could only buy ADC items. You would be like all AD is just burst assassins. There is not difference all AD burst only. NO we don't need more items.
Look at 
he is either tanky and has no damage or burst mage zergs a one and done. There is not really a in-between.
People are not asking for more powerful items. They was power neutral items that cater and their class instead of "making" them a burst mage.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesBurst mages are going to buy the same items. If they do buy the bruisers / Damage over time items then their damage will go down because of the trade off of defense items.
Base damages are what make the difference between a Burst mage and a bruiser. They still have a higher percentage of health needed to kill, without the need for additional damage. Add in the fact, that OP wants a item like Bramblevest or Exe Calling, you can easily sit on it without finishing it, meaning you can rush damage anyways.
And nice, the ol' "call someone bias" argument. Before Kayn, I maged as many mages as I can. Don't bring that shit at me.