The balance in toplane has been laughable for whole seasons

Thilmer·May 18, 2019·62 votes·15,911 views

So we have this lane, where you are supposed to play melee tanks, but:

-Any ranged champion automatically wins lane against a melee champion. -AD champions focused on damage are considerably stronger than tanks.

But wait, there is more.

Since all kind of champions are allowed on this lane (for some strange reason), if you are top and you are first or second pick you are going to get counterpicked hard and lose the laning phase since champion select.

Let's not forget to mention that this is the lane with less agency; literally any of the other four roles have significantly more impact in winning or losing the game that toplane.

It's totally ridiculous that a lane is like this when Riot puts massive widespread changes on the table when botlane has any minimum balance problem.

Are they planning to do something about toplane balance? Or just ignore the place for the whole season like usual?

99 Comments

SuicidePlankMay 18, 201922 votes

Wasn't hashinshins point always that no one in balance team plays toplane, so we kinda get dicked every patch? Like how long did Viktor/Vlad/Riven/Kennen last (Vlad still does but..ye..)

So glad I switched back to GP Mid.

RagnaveilMay 18, 201920 votes

Or even though the tank meta was spawned from massive oversight on botlane, we still get blamed for it because toplane was the designated tank lane? Like the only significance top has during lane is Rift Herald, thats it. Meanwhile botlane just sits nice and cozy next to a respawning dragon pit.

Like I managed to get back into d3, but let me tell you: The majority of the work wasn't playing toplane it was playing ADC. Playing an adc made me feel like I had so much impact that by playing safe and not having to be agro like you have to be in top to make a difference, I practically could win games with much less effort.

Also, Irelia and Jax are not meant to be high burst damage fighters, yet that seems to be the thing they do now. Heck its the main reason why Irelia was played mid. If you touched the reset mechanic for marks, she would have head back to toplane without them having to change the damage reduction or ult.

SuicidePlankMay 18, 201925 votes

{quoted}

Or even though the tank meta was spawned from massive oversight on botlane, we still get blamed for it because toplane was the designated tank lane? Like the only significance top has during lane is Rift Herald, thats it. Meanwhile botlane just sits nice and cozy next to a respawning dragon pit.

Like I managed to get back into d3, but let me tell you: The majority of the work wasn't playing toplane it was playing ADC. Playing an adc made me feel like I had so much impact that by playing safe and not having to be agro like you have to be in top to make a difference, I practically could win games with much less effort.

Also, Irelia and Jax are not meant to be high burst damage fighters, yet that seems to be the thing they do now. Heck its the main reason why Irelia was played mid. If you touched the reset mechanic for marks, she would have head back to toplane without them having to change the damage reduction or ult.

Also, do you remember when mages and bruisers were viable bot for a few weeks? And how ADCs cried their eyes out and daddy Riot fixed it? When I complained about Vlad, Kennen, Quinn, Vayne, Viktor top, all I got was ,,They are supposed to be played there, variety is goooood".

FearAkaliNoob123May 18, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Also, do you remember when mages and bruisers were viable bot for a few weeks? And how ADCs cried their eyes out and daddy Riot fixed it? When I complained about Vlad, Kennen, Quinn, Vayne, Viktor top, all I got was ,,They are supposed to be played there, variety is goooood".

8.11 to 9.1/2 15 patchs, last patchs lasted for 4 weeks, 32 weeks, yeah, that's "some weeks", you are the crybaby here, Vayne got nerfed in 6 patchs (maybe a bit more or less), Riven too, Quinn is honestly not great, Viktor got fixed quickly, Kennen got nerfed.

Oh, if you followed some Rioters on Twitter you'd know that they are planning to redo 8.11 but on a more balanced way.

Yes top is a problem, but it's not a reason to say shit. Edit : let's continue, you compare the gutting if almost every crit ADC wich lasted like 3 times longer to problems basically only with tanks and some other champions, once again, Riven has been dominant for some time, but for 2 months, not for almost 10, myself I play some Toplane so stop using this as an argument, and see what you've hot for you : Conqueror Nerfed Riven nerfed Vayne nerfed Kennen nerfed Akali nerfed Every tanks buffed Yes it's not perfect but you hit this and more in only 4 months, maybe you should be decent and stop comparing yourself with slth like 8.11.

Once again, top has problems, but complaining that you don't have impact is stupid when Riot is actively working on it, and yes, it requires time.

You have reasons to he Salty, you can be Salty, but if you talk with other people, in order to convince others you must use arguments with exemples like some did here.

SuicidePlankMay 18, 201919 votes

{quoted}

Riven too,

Riven has never been nerfed till now. For more than just 15 patches and always remained S Tier.

Quinn is honestly not great

Never said she was, just that she ruins Toplane.

Viktor got fixed quickly

You mean nerfing stuff that doesn't matter? He can still, to this day convert Sheen into pure Magic DMG and also, due to his double scaling and low CD on Q build tanky + keep the shield almost permanent up, meaning you don't deal any damage to him. Nerfing his ratios didn't fixt the problem, there was just more OP shit that came around.

Kennen got nerfed.

Now, yes. After being one of the strongest Toplaner for eons, still has a amazing lane, amazing teamfight and late, oh and also you can't gapclose to him since he maxes E first.

Yes top is a problem, but it's not a reason to say shit.

Yes toplane is shit, I've played it enough.

Oh and also,

8.11 to 9.1/2 15 patchs, last patchs lasted for 4 weeks, 32 weeks, yeah, that's "some weeks", you are the crybaby here,

smartass, they fixed it almost two weeks after it became meta. Because ADCs kept crying and actually some were benched in pro play for that short period of time.

SuperTopLFBottomMay 18, 201920 votes

{quoted}

8.11 to 9.1/2 15 patchs, last patchs lasted for 4 weeks, 32 weeks, yeah, that's "some weeks", you are the crybaby here, Vayne got nerfed in 6 patchs (maybe a bit more or less), Riven too, Quinn is honestly not great, Viktor got fixed quickly, Kennen got nerfed.

Oh, if you followed some Rioters on Twitter you'd know that they are planning to redo 8.11 but on a more balanced way.

Yes top is a problem, but it's not a reason to say shit.

What. Viktor top lasted for three months+. It started in worlds already and hasn't been fixed way into the start of the season.

Riven was the best toplaner for several months now too. Don't give me that shit that it gets fixed "quickly".

Also adcs were still pretty much the best in the role. Korean soloQ was filled with kaisa, lucian. Just crit was meh. And i don't follow esports but i'm pretty sure chinese and korean pro teams still played ADCs.

Ofc it is shit. Toplane is absolutely and utter fuckin garbage. It is unbalanced as shit. Has zero impact on the game and is just rage inducing. Getting filled two times into toplane just makes me smash my keyboard. Such a fuckin garbage lane but you people don't play it and assume everything is alright because you get autofilled once in 100 games and play maokai and get carried and think the lane is fine.

Anyone remember riots statistics on ghost/cleanse nunu? 17% winrate on top. 7% winrate on bot.

If the sample size was decent you know how impactful toplane is.

Z3SleeperMay 19, 20198 votes

Quinn is actually one of the highest winrate top laners atm and has jumped to #1 multiple times this patch (currently #3).

Check your facts.

FlashesMay 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Also, do you remember when mages and bruisers were viable bot for a few weeks? And how ADCs cried their eyes out and daddy Riot fixed it? When I complained about Vlad, Kennen, Quinn, Vayne, Viktor top, all I got was ,,They are supposed to be played there, variety is goooood".

I see you've forgotten that there was a point where it wasn't mages and bruisers being viable that was ok, it was how Riot shoehorned the majority of ADCs to ONLY be viable in Botlane with the crit build. I found more success with Lethality Caitlyn Mid during 8.11, and if I'm going Lethality Caitlyn I might as well just pick an AD pick that has better roaming potential.

Bruisers and Mages became THE way to play botlane, and had more damage, sustain, and cc than marksmen. That's one of the biggest contributors to why games began to shorten, leading to a bunch of assassin buffs, which led to even shorter games. 8.11 was a failure and Riot has acknowledged that.

When ADCs were replaced with those mages and bruisers, champions like Swain, Vladimir, and Yasuo had 3 viable lanes where they preformed well in, while most ADCs had 1 lane that they preformed to a subpar standard in. There are a lot of parallels with crit ADCs in 8.11 and with tanks in toplane right now, but if there isn't so much revenue loss that Riot loses 20% of their money, then Riot isn't going to acknowledge Tanks.

Crescent DuskMay 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst Summoner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ABy0KmuN,comment-id=0000000000000002,timestamp=2019-05-19T03:05:56.223+0000)

I see you've forgotten that there was a point where it wasn't mages and bruisers being viable that was ok, it was how Riot shoehorned the majority of ADCs to ONLY be viable in Botlane with the crit build. I found more success with Lethality Caitlyn Mid during 8.11, and if I'm going Lethality Caitlyn I might as well just pick an AD pick that has better roaming potential.

Bruisers and Mages became THE way to play botlane, and had more damage, sustain, and cc than marksmen. That's one of the biggest contributors to why games began to shorten, leading to a bunch of assassin buffs, which led to even shorter games. 8.11 was a failure and Riot has acknowledged that.

When ADCs were replaced with those mages and bruisers, champions like Swain, Vladimir, and Yasuo had 3 viable lanes where they preformed well in, while most ADCs had 1 lane that they preformed to a subpar standard in. There are a lot of parallels with crit ADCs in 8.11 and with tanks in toplane right now, but if there isn't so much revenue loss that Riot loses 20% of their money, then Riot isn't going to acknowledge Tanks.

And now over half of the top ranked ladder is ADC mains. Isn't it lovely to be a 12/1/3 top lane or midlane and still lose a game because your bot lane shat the bed?

bot lane and jg are the most valuable lanes since winning those lanes gets 2+ people ahead instead of just one.

taleofsonataMay 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Wasn't hashinshins point always that no one in balance team plays toplane, so we kinda get dicked every patch? Like how long did Viktor/Vlad/Riven/Kennen last (Vlad still does but..ye..)

So glad I switched back to GP Mid.

Yea Viktor, back to trash tier mid because of someone picking him top.

SuicidePlankMay 19, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Yea Viktor, back to trash tier mid because of someone picking him top.

Someone. Ye, like literally broken and highest WR in SoloQ and also being picked in LCS over and over. Just someone picked him Top guys, maybe one or two.

Sir SaltarinMay 18, 201920 votes

Nerf Ryze Vladimir please

LTK KoRoMay 19, 20193 votes

and adcs

Sir SaltarinMay 19, 20192 votes

Nah

LTK KoRoMay 19, 20192 votes

all rankeds which i lost and most rankeds which i won on eune were only due to bot difference, please nerf adcs and supports

Spooks and NullMay 19, 20197 votes

Gonna just leave this here. Posted this to a similar thread. It bears repeating, but only for those who are actually interested in discussion. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/WiZTzKnk-top-lane-is-for-masochists?comment=0003 My general thoughts on top lane, and a little bit of context as to how Top Lane's meta was formed, from a Season 1 vet.

As a small aside. If you wanna see how dire Top Lane is right now. MSI is being played on 9.8, before the third conqueror nerf. Conqueror is one of the least used runes in that entire tournament, and the most popular top laners have been:

Kennen Jayce Ryze Neeko Akali Vladimir and Sylas

Jayce has a 100% pick/ban presence, and has for the entire tournament. Kennen has a 71% pick/ban, Ryze is at 66%, and if you ignore Irelia who was flexed between mid/top, then the only Conqueror user in MSI this year with an above 15% presence was Hecarim, at 2 picks (for top lane) and 4 bans. The ONLY "tank" picked in top lane at MSI this year, is Cho'gath, with 1 pick and 0 bans. He lost the game he was played in too xd

Source: https://gol.gg/tournament/tournament-stats/Mid-Season%20Invitational%202019/

Spooks and NullMay 20, 20191 votes

UPDATE I just found this out. Absolutely hilariously. Hecarim's gigantic nerf that gutted him out of top lane for the foreseable future occured in 9.9. MSI was being played on 9.8, when hecarim was at his absolute strongest, and was tied with Riven for winrate.

He was barely even considered.

How fucking hilarious is that.

ThefrostyvikingMay 18, 20196 votes

Supposed to play melee tanks toplane?

What?

Toplane is for divers, juggernauts and skirmishers, you know, the fellows who are good at 1v1.

Tanks? You cram those into matchups where you know the enemy cant punish them then you have them go be good in teamfights, where the damage specialists fall off in comparison.

A Darius will spank Maokai in lane but then come teamfights.....as long as maokai isnt too far behind and his team is alright then Darius is virtually useless because he cant get past or kill maokai fast enough before he himself dies.

Ranged champs beat melee by default?

Irelia Darius Jax Riven among others all have two or several ranged matchups that they win.

Map impact? Herald hello? Smash your lane then just as botlane then gets dragon with the jungler, get the herald.....then take one or even several towers thus opening the map for your team-

Heck many pro´s even like roaming midlane or even invading enemy jungle depending on the situation.

Then the reason many ranged exist toplane is because multiple melee´s have their only weakness being exactly ranged matchups, i recall viktor toplane starting out as a counterpick to aatrox or something before people realized he was good into other stuff too.

Picking a tank is like picking say Karthus mid or KogMaw botlane, your entire goal is just surviving and getting to the teamfight phase safely unless you get a massive amount of help to make your opponent fall behind extremely hard.

SuicidePlankMay 18, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Ranged champs beat melee by default?

among others all have two or several ranged matchups that they win.

Lmao, which one? The one Juggernaut whos weakness is that he can be kited to oblivion.

Meteora707May 18, 20194 votes

probably a low elo player that doesn't know dariuses E range so he keeps getting caught in it

ThefrostyvikingMay 18, 20194 votes

Swain, Kayle, Teemo should all be easy if my memory serves even with little care from Darius.

Then for those who are beatable if the Darius know´s what he´s doing.

Gnar - He´s extremely vulnerable in mega form, and his auto attack range is the same as Darius hook.......will be extremely tilting to deal with though, but it´s doable.

Lissandra - If Darius can get on her without his E and instead cancels hers with it then she has nothing left, does too little damage to kill him unless he´s low.

Ryze - He´s slippery with phase rush but Darius can also use it + merc threads to make it even, if a conqueror Darius does get on Ryze he does enough damage to just kill him though.

For all these the Darius kinda needs to start Doran´s shield + second wind from the resolve tree to not get poked to oblivion though.

The rest he should lose, karma, vlad kennen and heimer etc are not winnable 1v1.

SuicidePlankMay 18, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Swain, Kayle, Teemo should all be easy if my memory serves even with little care from Darius.

Then for those who are beatable if the Darius know´s what he´s doing.

Gnar - He´s extremely vulnerable in mega form, and his auto attack range is the same as Darius hook.......will be extremely tilting to deal with though, but it´s doable.

Lissandra - If Darius can get on her without his E and instead cancels hers with it then she has nothing left, does too little damage to kill him unless he´s low.

Ryze - He´s slippery with phase rush but Darius can also use it + merc threads to make it even, if a conqueror Darius does get on Ryze he does enough damage to just kill him though.

For all these the Darius kinda needs to start Doran´s shield + second wind from the resolve tree to not get poked to oblivion though.

The rest he should lose, karma, vlad kennen and heimer etc are not winnable 1v1.

Okay, you obviously have no clue about Darius or what you are talking about. He can win everything in Silver or when the enemy afks, but everything you listed, everything cucks him. You can't even catch a good teemo, cuz he will never ever be in your E range.

ThefrostyvikingMay 18, 20191 votes

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1StKWm2xHyi56kPASShubuVVnUOoAFf9t4GGKnEZgtFM/edit

Guy who hit challenger in season 8 wrote this, and he says Teemo is beatable, found on Darius reddit page.

Any questions?...

Well i suppose i confess that i read that earlier and got what i wrote from there but its obvious enough really.....i´ve been on the receiving end enough times to know he´s right.

SuicidePlankMay 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1StKWm2xHyi56kPASShubuVVnUOoAFf9t4GGKnEZgtFM/edit

Guy who hit challenger in season 8 wrote this, and he says Teemo is beatable, found on Darius reddit page.

Any questions?...

Well i suppose i confess that i read that earlier and got what i wrote from there but its obvious enough really.....i´ve been on the receiving end enough times to know he´s right.

Beatable, if the Teemo is shit, yes. Darius is and was a pub stomper, but you won't have an easy time against a better opponent/someone who is on your skill level.

Haze97May 18, 20193 votes

You never duel with Mmga Gnar silly. Lissandra can escape and run circles alive Darius all day long, and a good Ryze will always beat a good Darius.

You'd have a better chance against them had you played someone more mobile such as Renekton or countered them with a ranged champ of your own.

SuperTopLFBottomMay 18, 201912 votes

{quoted}

Supposed to play melee tanks toplane?

What?

Toplane is for divers, juggernauts and skirmishers, you know, the fellows who are good at 1v1.

Tanks? You cram those into matchups where you know the enemy cant punish them then you have them go be good in teamfights, where the damage specialists fall off in comparison.

A will spank in lane but then come teamfights.....as long as maokai isnt too far behind and his team is alright then Darius is virtually useless because he cant get past or kill maokai fast enough before he himself dies.

Ranged champs beat melee by default?

among others all have two or several ranged matchups that they win.

Map impact? Herald hello? Smash your lane then just as botlane then gets dragon with the jungler, get the herald.....then take one or even several towers thus opening the map for your team-

Heck many pro´s even like roaming midlane or even invading enemy jungle depending on the situation.

Then the reason many ranged exist toplane is because multiple melee´s have their only weakness being exactly ranged matchups, i recall viktor toplane starting out as a counterpick to aatrox or something before people realized he was good into other stuff too.

Picking a tank is like picking say mid or botlane, your entire goal is just surviving and getting to the teamfight phase safely unless you get a massive amount of help to make your opponent fall behind extremely hard.

Oh just smash your lane it is that easy. Thank you captain. Thank god there isn't a jungle that has nothing to do for the first 10 minutes but run toplane and kill you or take away any impact or influence you might have on the game.

You either play a bully and get the jungler non stop until you get outscaled. Or you play a scaler but then you don't smash your lane. So pls tell me almighty how you do it?

Have u watched TF blades climb? How he played? 90% of his laning phase he spent roaming and being a second jungler and not playing his lane. This is how you play toplane. You just don't. Afk waveclear and roam.

RagnaveilMay 18, 20199 votes

^ This. Not to mention the best tops to climb with are main experience heavy. Aatrox and his new changes have him up so high because of his ult's healing increase affecting recieved heals from something like Nami or Soraka. A Yuumi buffed Aatrox is no joke either.

ThefrostyvikingMay 18, 20191 votes

Which category of champs doesnt need you to have experience on your champs in order to climb?

I mean aside from poke mages.....You just need a good aim for those.

RagnaveilMay 18, 20193 votes

Things in top take skill, but they vary. Jax and Irelia have different playstyles that are much different to someone else of their class that you cant simply transfer those skills to some other champ. Same applies with Riven.

ThefrostyvikingMay 18, 20191 votes

You think botlane has any map impact without smashing their side either?

If neither side can get an advantage then they are exactly the same as toplane, sitting on their ass until jungler or midlane comes by.

The only ones who have a consistently good shot at map impact are the junglers and the midlaners, no one else......except a few supports i suppose.

Everyone has to deal with the jungler breathing down their necks, its not toplane exclusive, rather the jungler will usually focus botlane due to a far greater yield if they succeed there.

I myself have been towerdived midlane as early as lvl 5 by a hecarim, and i´ve read enough jungling guides to know more is possible.....but i digress.

If you play a scaler you better have your jungler come by, put the enemy behind and then fight them equally, win, then smash it all, same as picking a scaling champ anywhere else.

Optionally you can try to seriously outplay your opponent even without your jungler......if at all possible, it certainly isnt always that i know.

TFblade? Are you joking with me?

He plays Irelia, a champ who despite what some dumbasses say, is actually crap at 1v1 vs melee champs in all but a few cases, even if she's played well the majority will just roll right over her if they know what they are doing.

She is a anti ranged&teamfight specialist with a sidedish of being cheesy, no bleeding wonder TFblade mostly avoids laning and instead looks to push&roam and snowball of that.

The degree of impossible for Irelia to win vs most competent melee is the same as Darius vs kennen, it doesnt happen.

SuperTopLFBottomMay 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You think botlane has any map impact without smashing their side either?

If neither side can get an advantage then they are exactly the same as toplane, sitting on their ass until jungler or midlane comes by.

The only ones who have a consistently good shot at map impact are the junglers and the midlaners, no one else......except a few supports i suppose.

Everyone has to deal with the jungler breathing down their necks, its not toplane exclusive, rather the jungler will usually focus botlane due to a far greater yield if they succeed there.

I myself have been towerdived midlane as early as lvl 5 by a hecarim, and i´ve read enough jungling guides to know more is possible.....but i digress.

If you play a scaler you better have your jungler come by, put the enemy behind and then fight them equally, win, then smash it all, same as picking a scaling champ anywhere else.

Optionally you can try to seriously outplay your opponent even without your jungler......if at all possible, it certainly isnt always that i know.

TFblade? Are you joking with me?

He plays Irelia, a champ who despite what some dumbasses say, is actually crap at 1v1 vs melee champs in all but a few cases, even if she's played well the majority will just roll right over her if they know what they are doing.

She is a anti ranged&teamfight specialist with a sidedish of being cheesy, no bleeding wonder TFblade mostly avoids laning and instead looks to push&roam and snowball of that.

The degree of impossible for Irelia to win vs most competent melee is the same as Darius vs kennen, it doesnt happen.

The huge difference botlane is way safer and scales faster and harder than any toplaner. And if either of you gets ahead it is basically GG.

Spooks and NullMay 19, 20192 votes

You also get to come back into the game late, even if you do fall behind since your items and gameplay style are naturally insanely powerful in the lategame.

DeusVultMay 18, 20193 votes

Darius actually has no real kill pressure on a good mao'kai

Darius cannot hit Q, you w into when he winds up. Q knock-back and slow mean that you can walk away. Mao cannot fight him, but Mao has decent base damage and waveclear, and good sustain. Darius by nature pushes the lane if he tries to fight you, and if he doesnt then you go even on CS. If Darius pushes lane, a competant jungler will show up because Mao brings a ton of lock down and Darius doesnt have an escape.

BuT muh Darius Doublekill - If the mao and the jungler dont int themselves during the gank, Darius dies before he can get the dunk

Crescent DuskMay 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Darius actually has no real kill pressure on a good mao'kai

Darius cannot hit Q, you w into when he winds up. Q knock-back and slow mean that you can walk away. Mao cannot fight him, but Mao has decent base damage and waveclear, and good sustain. Darius by nature pushes the lane if he tries to fight you, and if he doesnt then you go even on CS. If Darius pushes lane, a competant jungler will show up because Mao brings a ton of lock down and Darius doesnt have an escape.

BuT muh Darius Doublekill - If the mao and the jungler dont int themselves during the gank, Darius dies before he can get the dunk

Um, the only time Darius should be engaging is when his apprehend is up, as the CC from apprehend guarantees a Q blade. Aftershock Darius, which is what the top challenger Darius mains like Dragoonsmash are running at 700+ LP, has very few bad match ups.

DeathBurstMay 18, 20195 votes

-Any ranged champion automatically wins lane against a melee champion.

No. Jayce is beatable with most Juggernauts. Teemo is fine too. And all of that is entirely neglecting the jungler influence, because it's SoloQ. But with a decent jungler (as premade, for instance, or in high MMR, or just by being a bit lucky), the ranged champ should die and die again to ganks, because if they harass you, they will push and expose themselves.

-AD champions focused on damage are considerably stronger than tanks.

Yes. In 1v1. The goal of Tanks is to play in teamfights, the goal of Bruisers is to splitpush, so of course they win in lane. But you should be 3 times more useful than them in a proper team-fight.

if you are top and you are first or second pick you are going to get counterpicked hard

No, not really. Because your opponents don't know how to play all champs. If you first-pick a champ you know well, and they "counter-pick" you with a champ they don't master, you're likely to win, because they don't know how to play the match-up, and you do.

Let's not forget to mention that this is the lane with less agency; literally any of the other four roles have significantly more impact in winning or losing the game that toplane.

Arguable. My best guess is that you're right about the "more impact" but you're wrong about the "significantly". If Top lane is the deciding factor in 17% of game versus 25% for the Jungler, yeah, the Jungler has more impact, but they will win only 1 more game every 12. This is just an example, I don't know the actual numbers, but I really believe this is the proper order of magnitude.

tl;dr: Top lane is fine.

SuicidePlankMay 18, 201919 votes

Arguable. My best guess is that you're right about the "more impact" but you're wrong about the "significantly". If Top lane is the deciding factor in 17% of game versus 25% for the Jungler, yeah, the Jungler has more impact, but they will win only 1 more game every 12. This is just an example, I don't know the actual numbers, but I really believe this is the proper order of magnitude.

Both Dopa and Faker say, like almost every professional Player, that toplane is the worst role right now and completly worthless.

DeathBurstMay 18, 20194 votes

"The worst" I'm ready to believe that, but that doesn't mean much. Someone has to be the worst, even if everyone is almost the same level.

"Worthless", that's bullshit, and I don't care what authority argument you bring in.

SuicidePlankMay 18, 201914 votes

{quoted}

"Worthless", that's bullshit, and I don't care what authority argument you bring in.

You mean the two best players in the world and everyone who gets payed to know this game? Ye, they don't know what they are talking about, right?

DeathBurstMay 18, 20192 votes

They have a super narrow view of the game as a whole and don't even play the lane in question.

SuicidePlankMay 18, 20198 votes

{quoted}

They have a super narrow view of the game as a whole and don't even play the lane in question.

Okay, so how do they win if they don't understand toplane, if it isn't as worthless as I say?

DeathBurstMay 18, 20192 votes

By understanding how THEIR lane in THEIR context of play works.

SuicidePlankMay 18, 20198 votes

{quoted}

By understanding how THEIR lane in THEIR context of play works.

Ah, btw you left out Toplaners in LCS, who say it themself, what about them?

DeathBurstMay 18, 20192 votes

Also: by playing in teams with competent Top laners who are not worthless.

SuicidePlankMay 18, 201910 votes

{quoted}

Also: by playing in teams with competent Top laners who are not worthless.

The Toplaners say it themselfs, not the other laners, that's what you ignored.

SucctionMay 18, 20198 votes

{quoted}

No. Jayce is beatable with most Juggernauts. Teemo is fine too. And all of that is entirely neglecting the jungler influence, because it's SoloQ. But with a decent jungler (as premade, for instance, or in high MMR, or just by being a bit lucky), the ranged champ should die and die again to ganks, because if they harass you, they will push and expose themselves.

Yes. In 1v1. The goal of Tanks is to play in teamfights, the goal of Bruisers is to splitpush, so of course they win in lane. But you should be 3 times more useful than them in a proper team-fight.

No, not really. Because your opponents don't know how to play all champs. If you first-pick a champ you know well, and they "counter-pick" you with a champ they don't master, you're likely to win, because they don't know how to play the match-up, and you do.

Arguable. My best guess is that you're right about the "more impact" but you're wrong about the "significantly". If Top lane is the deciding factor in 17% of game versus 25% for the Jungler, yeah, the Jungler has more impact, but they will win only 1 more game every 12. This is just an example, I don't know the actual numbers, but I really believe this is the proper order of magnitude.

tl;dr: Top lane is fine.

Gonna have to hard disagree with you on your counterpick point.

Back in season 7 when I was a diamond Fiora otp, while smurfing I would regularly lose lane to silver Renektons and Pantheons just because of how one sided the lane is.

Counterpicks in top don't really require you to have much knowledge of the actual champion, as a fair amount of top champs take little to no skill at all.

It's predominately tanks of course, but it still allows anyone to play anything and get an easy lane win off champ select.

DeathBurstMay 18, 20193 votes

Don't care about "winning lane", care about winning the game. Renekton can beat Fiora, sure, but if that Silver player managed to match all your split-push and all your rotations as a Diamond player, they deserved that win, and not because they counterpicked you.

Also, were you actually counterpicked, or were you simply unlucky and matched against a Renekton main who would've picked Renekton anyway? Because in that case, being first-pick doesn't matter.

SucctionMay 19, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Don't care about "winning lane", care about winning the game. Renekton can beat Fiora, sure, but if that Silver player managed to match all your split-push and all your rotations as a Diamond player, they deserved that win, and not because they counterpicked you.

Also, were you actually counterpicked, or were you simply unlucky and matched against a Renekton main who would've picked Renekton anyway? Because in that case, being first-pick doesn't matter.

You can't have a reasonable impact on the game as a top laner if you don't win the game.

Top laners who lose lane are starved of xp and gold to the point where they can't rotate and skirmish, and it's why I dropped the lane entirely.

Your second point isn't really relevant. I wasn't talking about reactively picking a champion because of a champion on the enemy team. I was more talking about counters themselves, and how insanely hard they are in the top lane.

Noire R34May 18, 20194 votes

Top lane is so garbage that Tf blade hit rank one on it in 2 regions

RagnaveilMay 18, 20194 votes

He's playing Irelia, Akali, and Jax. Champs that require a shit ton of time to master and are very main heavy. People who try to be versatile in their pool cannot play those 3 to any high extent unless they were in the LCS, where you'd know which picks are good in toplane vs soloqueue, where a niche counter that hard counters a champ will be more likely played (Ex. Aatrox v Fiora).

PaffWasTakenMay 19, 20197 votes

... by picking the only toplaners who fare well against ranged ones, while being able to have a laning phase Irelia Jax Akali .

You are proving nothing at all by pointing out a player who's been meta slaving his way to the top, when the thread is about champions being significantly stronger than others