"Ezreal is still broken with several key masteries because the problem is Ezreal"

Thilmer·Dec 24, 2017·112 votes·5,388 views

"Let's nerf Kleptomancy and screw all the supports that are supposed to use it while we ignore that Ezreal is the real problem".

Riot style.

85 Comments

SwarovskoDec 24, 201752 votes

Kleptomancy wasn't supposed to be used mainly by supports. None ever said that.

10TicklerDec 24, 201723 votes

CLEARRRRLY IT'S MEANT FER A PIRATE!

Gangplank Gold Rush start: Kleptomancy - item 3303

Tails9016Dec 24, 20171 votes

I start cull so I can farm properly since they stop letting me q them after the 4th q.

Also so my q and passive actually do damage at level 1.

JPLangleyDec 24, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Tails9016Dec 24, 20171 votes

But... it's 7 AD I'm missing out on... and 3 hp per hit.

I haven't done the calculations on the gold gain from cull vs gold saved from crystal, so unless gold wise, crystal is better, I'll stick with Cull

MuzétDec 25, 20172 votes

Selling back Cull = 170g, 350g from passive (520g total from 450g when bought) . So, by the passive itself you can buy a Crystal.

junglerboy16Dec 25, 20172 votes

Actually Cull gives 450 gold from the passive (100 for minions, 350 for full stacks). Even if you don't count the stats it gives while you have the item (which are strong early game) you make 170 gold back overall. Compared to Doran's blade, you make 450 gold total.

MuzétDec 26, 20171 votes

Oh my bad forgot the 1g on minion kill x.x But it doesn't change my point overall you can buy a Crystal through its help and you've got enough to buy a control ward with it ♫

GarthBrooksXDDec 25, 20173 votes

Anyone with any competency at all in this game will abuse an enemy cull start by eventually zoning you away from farming at all because you will not be able to trade back against someone who has items that give stats against anything besides minions.

The result is something like a 40 stack cull remaining with 20 minutes into the game and u trying to defend your inhibitor with a sheen and lucidity boots.

Pumping IronDec 24, 20173 votes

item 3301

ArkenStormDec 26, 20171 votes

Bankplank OP

Blue Moon WolfDec 25, 20174 votes

True, but it isn't supposed to be proc'd by a skill shot ability as the primary way to proc it. Yet Riot felt it was necessary to nerf it in a way that wouldn't even effect the main abuser of the Rune, just the other champs who made use of it and really benefited from the extra 25 range.

Ayanami3rdDec 24, 201730 votes

Let's just delete Kleptomancy altogether. It's fun in an ARAM-style way, but RNG should have no place in a competetive game. It only creates problems.

JPLangleyDec 24, 201723 votes

[deleted]

ShaolinToiletDec 24, 20177 votes

How is it more uninspired than press the attack or lethal tempo

greekvandaLDec 25, 20173 votes

Dodge made the game horseshit at a time. It got removed it was toxic. Crit has been ruinning league since the dawn of time but it's ok mostly adc's use crit. We can allow adcs to be toxic it takes skill to rightclick

ThilmerDec 25, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=toxicity creep,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lXw43FKZ,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2017-12-25T13:44:26.663+0000)

Dodge made the game horseshit at a time. It got removed it was toxic. Crit has been ruinning league since the dawn of time but it's ok mostly adc's use crit. We can allow adcs to be toxic it takes skill to rightclick

Yeah, apparently that's the rule.

"We don't want RNG to have an impact in the game" (ADCs with 60% crit chance doing burst damage because that's not RNG, you know...)

DeusVultDec 26, 20171 votes

IMO it would be fine with some tuning. First, remove the items, that is rediculous RNG. (like going for a trade kill with ez, he lands q while shillshot in route, gets a travel size elixor of iron and gains 150 health....) Up the gold per hit, maybe have the gold per hit increase each time if proc'd quickly over a short period. Then add in specific interactions like removing Ez Q, or nerfing the amount you can get from GP Q.

MohawkBirdDec 24, 201713 votes

I honestly don't understand Riot's mentality in regards to Ezreal. Every single time something on-hit related got even to a decent state, Ezreal has abused it. It happened with Runeglaive, it recently happened with Duskblade, and now it's happening with Kleptomancy. I think there were also a few more things that were nerfed because of Ezreal in the past but I just don't know off the top of my head. If someone who remembers some items in past seasons that Ezreal has abused to the point of nerfs please let me know.

Bottom line is, Ezreal's kit seriously needs to be looked at if he is constantly just going to be the spawn of nerfs. It's annoying to see the same pattern happen every season.

Step 1: Ezreal finds synergy in something Step 2: Riot nerfs that something instead of the abuser of it Step 3: It hurts the other champions who use it more than the sole reason the nerf was called for, being Ezreal

Kleptomancy would be perfectly fine if not for Ezreal, but instead Kleptomancy takes a hit because of him and hurts other champions who were nowhere near as strong with it, making them worse off despite being in a perfectly fine state.

NemeBroDec 24, 201710 votes

{quoted}

"Let's nerf Kleptomancy and screw all the supports that are supposed to use it while we ignore that Ezreal is the real problem".

Riot style.

Kleptomancy is fundamentally broken, and should be removed, not nerfed.

DontTouchMyBallDec 25, 20179 votes

"Ez isn't a issue" says every Ezreal main. meanwhile Sona was gutted, because balance is balanced!

LichKing234Dec 25, 20171 votes

nerfed tiddies

Rathar DashingDec 25, 20171 votes

What are you talking about? With Klepto she can get elixir or iron for free, thus increasing her chest size.

LichKing234Dec 26, 20171 votes

good point

LordGeovanniDec 25, 20172 votes

2 people in the bot lane does too much damage because we cut reistances in half so we cut the damage on the character that does less damage in so that adcs can lane in peace.

GrokmirDec 24, 20176 votes

At the very least they should remove the whole proc'ing klepto with only his q thing.

Beyond that, the reason he's so good rn is because of how much raw ad runes give. He scales harder with flat ad than almost any adc + he has really long range to use it with. I think slightly lowering either his q base damage or q early game ratio is the way to go if making klepto harder to use for him doesn't do it.

Support BoyyyDec 24, 20174 votes

I main support and I never use Kleptomancy... have I been using the wrong runes this whole time??

[sg-janna]

AwesomeGuyDjDec 24, 201710 votes

AFAIK most people dont take klepto on supports.

YumaS2AstralDec 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

AFAIK most people dont take klepto on supports.

I use Klepto on Lulu because Klepto is essentially a Spellblade that gives gold instead of dealing damage and she has synergy with Spellblade items (if you play solo lane with her, which I am already used to).

Don't know about other supports, though.

Agent CorgiDec 24, 20174 votes

I've seen Bards Bard Take Klepto before. You would [Q: Cosmic Binding] Stun them & Auto them like a normal trade, except you would be getting rewarded with Klepto-goodies for doing so.

SwarovskoDec 25, 20172 votes

No you're fine. People are just assuming that the inspiration tree was created mainly for supports but it was not and Riot never said that. It is a creative tree EVERYONE can use so keep using your fox fire.

Troll for TrumpDec 25, 20174 votes

It's not just for supports, but yes, the klepto nerfs screw it for everyone rather than just the abusers like Ez, GP, and Illaoi

bañDec 24, 20173 votes

Buff his W or Ult and take off the on hit part of his Q haha. There I did it. Hire me Riot

Its All SkillzzDec 24, 201724 votes

{quoted}

Buff his W or Ult and take off the on hit part of his Q haha. There I did it. Hire me Riot

except his Q onhit is the only reason he works with lichbane/triforce, without it he has no reason to go a sheen item. and despite ap ezreal being rare, buffing his W or R is just gonna make him be played ap, like W is already insane poke in lane and R can 1 shot a squishy from full health if they first one hit.

Pumping IronDec 24, 20173 votes

or just make it to not proc kleto (like old gangplank q)

Remlap1223Dec 24, 201711 votes

WTF are you talking about. Gangplank's Q has always proc'd on hit effects.

TerchioDec 25, 20173 votes

He might be talking about old Plank's passive interaction. His DoT / GW passive was procced on Q, and was abused as such. Eventually they reworked it to not proc on Q (though other on-hits still applied).

I mean, really, one option is to remove on-hits in general from these ranged skills, or apply at half power or something, but the other option is to make certain on-hits coded as exceptions, or re-code these procs as on-attack (think EZ interaction with Runaan's, which is on-attack. He can use Runaan's, but only on his basic attack. He can't Runaan a Q).

It's probably not simple, though, and just spells out as Ezreal being good at many on-hits, and purposely blocked for others... Not an entirely favorable situation. The problem in my eyes is that he's got unmatched potential range and kite, and that makes him a problem. I honestly haven't even had a problem with GP (his costs him early game farm) and feel the EZ problem is inflated, but if we want to share the gold mastery with others, something needs done. It's just not going to be viable with EZ and GP around.

junglerboy16Dec 25, 20171 votes

See that's the thing though, Ez's Q applying on-hits is the one and only reason he breaks the game.

Every other on-hit applying ability that hasn't caused some sort of major balance issue is targeted or requires significant commitment (e.g. Warwick ult). By it's very nature, a non-targeted ability having the ability to apply Sheen items is the exact problem with Ezreal.

Ezreal shouldn't be enabled to abuse sheen items (they can't ever be that good or he ruins them for the game).

CertainlyTrash is right, maybe not in how to buff him, but how to finally fix what Ez does that ruins everything he touches.

Bouncemaster ZacDec 25, 20173 votes

the only solution to Ezreal is to remove the on-hit property from his Q.

"but that's his whole champion identity! he's useless without it!" Then he needs reworked. If a Champion's core identity is inherently broken and leads to neverending probems, that doesn't mean they should simply be allowed to remain broken forever to maintain their "identity." It means they need changed.

Rathar DashingDec 25, 20171 votes

I think it should be allowed to proc some on-hit effects, or at the very least proc lifesteal/sheen. The interaction between Kleptomancy and his Q is the major problem, but one could solve this problem by shifting the power from constant proccing to slower, more powerful procs.

For example, the Scorch rune is powerful, but it's powerful on everyone because everyone can hit at least one spell every 20 seconds or so (unless they're really bad) and its power is tuned accordingly. If Kleptomancy worked in a similar way, where you could only proc it every 10-15 seconds or so (perhaps depending on level) but the amount of gold you get is increased (and potentially the drop-rate of items), then it would become slightly weaker on its abusers but would become much more viable on those champs who can't spam abilities and auto champs easily.

BarcidDec 25, 20173 votes

Ezreal's not broken with anything but Kleptomancy. Kleptomancy gives him guaranteed increased gold flow which directly benefits the fact that he aims for an early-mid-game spike. This gets him there in very quick time.

He is powerful this meta. Why? Probably because it's a meta focused on early to mid-game.

There's a difference between "broken" and "meta". All the other top champions right now all around reflect the current state of the game - early game strength snowballing into no competition wins.

Its All SkillzzDec 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toxic Control,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lXw43FKZ,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2017-12-25T04:26:43.180+0000)

Ezreal's not broken with anything but Kleptomancy. Kleptomancy gives him guaranteed increased gold flow which directly benefits the fact that he aims for an early-mid-game spike. This gets him there in very quick time.

He is powerful this meta. Why? Probably because it's a meta focused on early to mid-game.

There's a difference between "broken" and "meta". All the other top champions right now all around reflect the current state of the game - early game strength snowballing into no competition wins.

dunno about you but anyone in decent elo isnt gonna let you walk up an AA them or Q them for free, anyone decent is gonna sit behind minions an punish you if you go in to AA after throwing your Q randomly off in the distance. the only time ezreal gets a ton of gold is if he is played support an all he can do is poke instead of having to farm. and its not even that much gold unless you get insanely lucky with gold sacks.

BarcidDec 25, 20172 votes

And any decent Ezreal is going to easily find a way to remedy that. Pushing hard, removing minions, poking enemies while they're under tower, punishing supports that go in the bushes - there are a million ways to abuse Ezreal to his full potential. And the only time he's completely flown off the handle is with Klepto equipped.

There is a significant reason that Ezreal's most used and top winrate builds both involve Klepto - it's because it's too good on him to ignore. It lets Ezreal abuse the fact that he has always been the early to mid game powerhouse. Even 200 gold from klepto combined with some snowballing kills is an extra two minion waves/an entire kill up on the enemy team, and this is ignoring the potions of skill or other helpful items he gets from using Klepto. It's not always about gold - Ezreal upping the points in his Q early or upping his E early can net him the ability to get out of danger more often or do a lot more damage way more often.

Ezreal is just meta. It's an early-game snowball meta. It makes sense that he would do well until the meta shifts (in which case any nerfs here would see him utterly dumpstered like most of last season). Klepto helps him hit his power spike much earlier. That's the plain and simple.

The evidence 100% supports this. It's like you're arguing the world is flat - you can do it, but in the end you're just wrong.

AirKingNeoDec 25, 20173 votes

What? Klepto is the issue. Was Ezreal a problem before? GP was shit and how he's pretty decent due to it. Bruisers left without a keystone and obliterated by Resolve and/or Sorcery breaking top lane are using Klepto to be viable.

All this evidence and you wanna say Klepto isn't any bit broken?

LatetotheRaceDec 25, 20173 votes

How about just make it so one ability can't proc it. You need a SECOND after that ability to auto-proc it.. That'd kill two birds with one stone... (Or just fix it's interaction with EZ and GP)

LankPantsDec 25, 20173 votes

Just make it on attack, not on hit. For context this is the way Ruunan's Hurricane works, the bolts come out with your AA animation and abilities like Ez's Q can't proc them because it's not an attack even if it applies on-hits.

Mokuto BunshiDec 24, 20172 votes

I mean, its still pretty strong, I saw a fiora use it top lane, she whipped me. Then I tried it on kled...works, thats not to say its enough for supports tho...

LupusFidusDec 25, 20172 votes

Riot nerfed alot, not just kleptomancy.

BârdDec 25, 20172 votes

Klepto is not for supports.

Klepto is good because it gives an absurd amount of gold if you're getting lots of procs.

Big Klepto users use it because they benefit massively from gold.

Supports don't, really. They're pretty item independent, so they function as a 6 pronged utility belt for the team. Getting that locket a bit sooner is nice, sure, but is it worth losing out on Aery?