Boards›Gameplay

Assassins are worthless

Moody P··11 votes·1,976 views

Little to no utility and their damage is almost always concentrated into <2 seconds of nuke damage with Akali being exception.

Almost always out-performed by divers assuming either class is balanced and not too weak/strong, who also don't primarily exist in mid lane unlike assassins so your team can still have the benefits of a mage (AOE, range, waveclear, CC). Most divers also do it with much less counterplay; why bother playing Zed when Hecarim can run out from fog with Predator and Trinity and wipe your carry with one button and follow up with CC? The only assassin who consistently stays viable is LeBlanc; even Rengar and K6 have quite a history of slinging back and forth between dog shit and broken.

That's not to say assassins should just have CC and the problem is solved, but they should at least have more to justify being picked than lots of concentrated burst and some mobility. Akali is currently the best assassin design in the game with her niche shroud utility letting her be a strong answer to targeted champions (while managing to maintain decent counterplay to it) while being weak into skillshot-heavy enemies.

I've never once said to myself "Thank god we have Katarina on our team."

29 Comments

The thigh guy3 votes

Um what? Not even a little. Assassins are the most overbearing overloaded class in the game right now.

You get more damage and an adc More defense than mages and adc Ways to ignore and remove your counters (resistances) Enough mobility to idiot proof your class Defensive utility. Free removal of vision (another counter) Removal of your last counter. Hard cc (qss) Doubled utility from Ghostblade. (Can be used for defense or offense) Naturally insane base stats. Multiple keystones that are almost tailor made for you

And no. The argument of “but assassins are suppose to go in, kill someone and get out” is entirely irrelevant when the cooldowns are so fucking low that you can do this every 8 seconds with little to no counterplay.

Piki Pico2 votes

Lol are your team fights lasting longer than 8 seconds with an Assassin nuking you over and over? I wish I played the same game as this board

The thigh guy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Piki Pico,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zlKlzYOz,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-01-06T00:41:08.000+0000)

Lol are your team fights lasting longer than 8 seconds with an Assassin nuking you over and over? I wish I played the same game as this board

Oh no. Not at all. Fights are over faster than they start. My point is that high cooldowns aren’t a thing for this class anymore.

A talon can parkour into a fight, instant kill 1 or more targets with little to no counterplay. Parkour out, and do it again before any recovery even has a chance of being made.

If assassins are suppose to delete a target and get out. Then that’s all they should be able to do. And it should not be repeatable.

NemeBro3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zlKlzYOz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-06T00:15:20.755+0000)

Um what? Not even a little. Assassins are the most overbearing overloaded class in the game right now.

You get more damage and an adc More defense than mages and adc Ways to ignore and remove your counters (resistances) Enough mobility to idiot proof your class Defensive utility. Free removal of vision (another counter) Removal of your last counter. Hard cc (qss) Doubled utility from Ghostblade. (Can be used for defense or offense) Naturally insane base stats. Multiple keystones that are almost tailor made for you

And no. The argument of “but assassins are suppose to go in, kill someone and get out” is entirely irrelevant when the cooldowns are so fucking low that you can do this every 8 seconds with little to no counterplay.

Have you considered the possibility that your opinion might be colored by the fact that you've been in bronze since season five?

The thigh guy2 votes

{quoted}

Have you considered the possibility that your opinion might be colored by the fact that you've been in bronze since season five?

Oh look. Someone lacks and argument and so they just use the old “you’re in bronze XDXDXD” like it matters.

I’ve done almost exclusively placements. I don’t play ranked because ranked is aids. :/

BlueBilberry1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zlKlzYOz,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-01-06T02:16:05.102+0000)

Oh look. Someone lacks and argument and so they just use the old “you’re in bronze XDXDXD” like it matters.

I’ve done almost exclusively placements. I don’t play ranked because ranked is aids. :/

I wouldn't use that metaphor because it is offensive to those who suffer from that disease. But I get your point - I've been boycotting ranked this past season on two of my accounts because of Riot's poor choices.

NemeBro1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zlKlzYOz,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-01-06T02:16:05.102+0000)

Oh look. Someone lacks and argument and so they just use the old “you’re in bronze XDXDXD” like it matters.

I’ve done almost exclusively placements. I don’t play ranked because ranked is aids. :/

I think you being relatively low skill at the game and forming conclusions about it based on your low skill experiences might matter friend.

The thigh guy2 votes

{quoted}

I think you being relatively low skill at the game and forming conclusions about it based on your low skill experiences might matter friend.

Again. Ignoring half of the post. Making your argument irrelevant.

T2K Baka1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zlKlzYOz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-06T00:15:20.755+0000)

Um what? Not even a little. Assassins are the most overbearing overloaded class in the game right now.

You get more damage and an adc More defense than mages and adc Ways to ignore and remove your counters (resistances) Enough mobility to idiot proof your class Defensive utility. Free removal of vision (another counter) Removal of your last counter. Hard cc (qss) Doubled utility from Ghostblade. (Can be used for defense or offense) Naturally insane base stats. Multiple keystones that are almost tailor made for you

And no. The argument of “but assassins are suppose to go in, kill someone and get out” is entirely irrelevant when the cooldowns are so fucking low that you can do this every 8 seconds with little to no counterplay.

Please try playing Katarina for yourself and you will see how useless you are until you get gunblade assuming u survive laning phase and aren't 0/6

SSW Talon1 votes

Get more damage than an ADC I presume this was meant to say and yes, early-mid game they do and it was only different when ADCs were 2 shotting everyone early mid game with IE and now was that any better? More defences than ADCs I'll give you, but it depends on which mage we're talking about in that case. Yes, so do other classes, including but not limited to: Mages, ADCs. Mobility can be used badly by the way and if it is, you still die whilst also looking like a massive idiot Only a few. Costs 2.9k gold and only applies to AD assassins. Anyone can buy red trink too so that rebuttal would be neutralised. Yes and the same applies to any other AD class and even mages buy this item vs certain champs/comps, don't act like it's unique to assassins. Yes, Ghostblade is a strong item and has been for a long time so I won't argue this. Because most of them are melee and all melee barring a veeeeery specific few have higher base stats than ranged champs Yes this is also true, but so do other classes such as enchanters, tanks and even mages.

The entire point of the rune rework was to make multiple options for multiple classes. Lets take say, Ahri, a burst mage. She can run Electrocute, Glacial Augment, Aery or Comet. Or how about ADCs who literally had HoB added to the red tree specifically so they could spec into it? Whether or not HoB is good is obviously a different discussion, it does not change the intent of the rune. Or how about how some bruisers can choose between Conq or PTA, or how ADCs can choose between Fleet, PTA and some even Lethal Tempo or HoB. This shit is not unique to assassins my dude. Hell I've even seen like 2 or 3 keystones (I think Comet, Aery and Electrocute.) on Syndra. Karthus can choose between Predator and DH.. The list goes on..

Obviously, but once again like nearly every fucking other thing in this list, they are not the only class that can do this and some can even do it from range! CDs as a whole are too low and it's not limited to assassin cooldowns.

Also, what that guy said has merit. The lower elo you go, the better assassins are because they reward you picking off people with bad positioning, bad warding, bad wave management and lower elo players have all of these issues. Assassins are the best pubstompers in League so yes, your opinion is also likely muddied by your MMR bracket, unfortunately. Just as my opinion is bias by maining assassins.

Fízz v23 votes

Didnt Riot have this idea of an "assassin objective"? idk how it would work but wouldnt something like that be a good reason for teams to pick an assassin?

Moody P2 votes

assassins should have specific functions to fill in beyond just "me assassin me kill"

akali for example is a strong counter to targeted harass. stuff like that would make them useful picks as answers to enemy strategies. for example if katarina's innate grievous got played up or upgraded to full healing stoppage she could make herself super valuable into healbot comps

Fízz v22 votes

assassins should have specific functions to fill in

Pretty sure thats what they wanted to add to fizz in the assassin update. They increased the aoe and CC on a max range ult by a lot which was supposed to make him the "assassin with engage".

but that doesnt help much if riot keeps refusing to buff him to a viable state in higher level games

Moody P2 votes

i dont see how he's encouraged to use it as engage when in a meta that isn't r%%%%%ed fizz ult used as engage will get body blocked by front line

he's still a flank champion, his rework didnt make any sense (the whole assassin update sucked)

Fízz v21 votes

Since Fizz ult slows you by 80% for 2 seconds, then knocks you up and slows you again by 80% for 2 seconds, at this point I think you might as well just use it on a tank to let your team kill it tbh xd

Imo it was the wrong decision, why is a small, mobile trickster fish guy supposed to be an engage champ? Wouldve been way cooler to get a rework that lowered his burst but made him more mobile and tricky but its not like riot cares about Fizz FeelsWeirdMan

Moody P1 votes

fizz should have a point and click 3 second silence instead xd

Fízz v21 votes

if it increases his damage by 30% im in Pog Pog

SithesisLord1 votes

akali for example is a strong counter to targeted harass

She's also a strong counter to being balanced.

Moody P1 votes

cringe if not ironic

SithesisLord1 votes

Definitely not ironic.

That champion is never going to be balanced as long as Obscurity is a thing.

I don´t know why they loosened the leash on CT when the WW rework is quite literally one of the most if not THE most praised CT design simply because it doesn´t feature any kind of bullshit mechanics you´d expect from a champion made by him.

Seriously, all he had to do with the Shroud was follow the already established rules of stealth.

Marshbouy2 votes

I've never once said to myself "Thank god we have Katarina on our team."

you don't play in the same elo as me lol.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

I mean he could, he's on a smurf.

Marshbouy1 votes

No, I know he doesn't because I know him really well and am friends with his main account. He's way above me.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Fair enough.

BlueBilberry2 votes

I agree but for different reasons. First, I miss the mage mid. Everytime I see a Zed, Talon or Yasuo on my team then I know that I will probably be forced to make up the lack of AP imbalance on the team which causes me to play a mage support (which rarely scale as well as an AP mage solo laner). And this means that we are stuck with a kill lane botlane and I know the adc's life will be miserable. Second, assassin mid means "gangbang botlane" to use Aphromoo's term. And it has been worse this past season than in the two previous seasons. Third, snowballing is still out of control - especially with so many assassins finding their way mid (or top). Bounties don't help and assassins with just a bit of coin just ruin the game. There is no chance to recover and little to no chance to deal with assassins, as soon as they get two items.

T2K Baka2 votes

I really hated playing the reworked at even though she was so broken when it first came out. The amount of delays on her were too much to enjoy, she went from an assassin to a ap bruiser. Before she was faceroll when you got a reset on her. That wasn't as easy as people made it to be, she had no escape if she messed up, caught, etc. And it was easier to cc her since she always went behind u. This new Kat is definitely stronger, but less enjoyable to play. lb and rengar got reverts and I want to play the old kat too lol. This version of Kat has had nerfs ever since rework, direct and indirect. 2 years of nerfs on your main feelsbadman

Vesarixx1 votes

Depends on the assassin really, and the definition of assassin tbh because that has been a topic of debate in the past, like Xerath and Malzahar used to be labeled as assassins in the old client for some reason.

There are some Hybrid champs in the game that can do more than just assassinate

Ahri has decent waveclear and can still set up picks with the team with E

Quinn isn't listed as an assassin but tbh she plays like a ranged Rengar without the stealth when you go lethality, season 6 she was arguably one of the best assassin picks in the game, so she might as well be, she can split pretty effectively and duel a large % of the champs in the game.

Ekko has decent waveclear, can engage or peel with W, and can fill a few different roles.

Leblanc has decent lock down with double chain and her cooldowns are short enough to go for a second target in a team fight.

Kayn This one maybe doesn't even count

Pantheon has some of the most reliable CC in the game

Pyke has enough utility to function as a support

Twitch Vayne probably don't count as assassins

Yasuo can team fight pretty well, though I'd probably classify him more as a melee ADC, similar to Riven Tryndamere MasterYi Fiora rather than an assassin

Khazix does have a ranged slow and resets so team fighting isn't too bad

Katarina under the right circumstances she can team fight just fine and deal more damage than most mages, her thing is mostly just high damage though so it makes sense she wouldn't bring utility.

LeeSin can reveal stealth and has a hard CC ultimate, even poops out wards all over the map just because of his W

Evelynn Zed Talon Rengar Fizz the lemme just kill this one person in particular crew, I can see the point with these ones.

Elise has pick with E, otherwise just there for the burst, a bit of utility with the HP shred and slow

Nidalee good poke, a heal, traps for vision

Shaco basically all cheese, but can annoy the enemy team in fights so he has that going for him

Teemo has sustained damage and ult can work as wards, I'm still never thrilled to see him on either team though.

Akali You already covered her

RekSai I'm honestly not super sure what this champ even does anymore, but I think they still have the tremor sense and I know the knockup and tunnels are still a thing.

Kassadin Almost forgot the terror of season 3, not really heavy on the utility, can interrupt channels and slow, but he can do some more consistent damage over the course of a team fight.

Think that's everyone.

BlueBilberry1 votes

If you want to split hairs then that's fine (after all, Rito has been doing it to excuse its excessive damage in the game on a certain type of playstyle - showing that it is not one type of champion, but spread across a number of "classes" loosely defined). But I think what is meant here is the sense used for most MOBAs (not just Rito's baby) - i.e., any champ generally that can dive and kill one or two hits and then get out with little to no damage suffered.

Just Monikha1 votes

AD assassins sucks ass because they re meant to be strong in early game but their main stat is a fkn scaling stat whitch means that they can eventually be good midgame and only midgame because their kit made them useless late game (except for Shaco but late is his only strengh) while mages are meant to be strong late game can still have flat pen + AP assassins are meant to be strong early/midgame (they re assassins) and can still have a combo litteraly meaning "you re all paper for me" aka void staff rabadon + base armor is still superior than base MR at lvl 4 for most champions if not earlier and it goes worse lvl after lvl + there isn t great MR item for laner, especially for the tanks and the AD ones and don't tell me that maw is relevant because it give 10 mr less than banshee, is nor expensive than this and his passive is just useless because actually when you re at 30% health the next second you re dead or you started backing no matter what happens and it s not an only 350 black shield with a big CD that will help you. The only thing AD assassins are good at is procing cancer Duskblade and slowing people for 99% by dealing the only decent amount of damage they re able to deal with an autoattack while they should just kill you in a second thanks to their spells combined with great scaling (1st thing they don'have except Kha'Zix, Pyke and eventually Kayn) and a great flat pen (thing no one have) then fall late game or play it the smartest way possible to eliminate the carry (not just jump on this dude with 5 on hit proc spells includedand just oneshot him unless he had Tabi like Shaco could eventually do). Also the vision system is now so shitty that for example you have litteraly no counterplay to eve as a toplaner/ as a midlaner (depends where the jungler put his pinkward). Btw if you don't trust me for AD assassins just look at what each of them build/ have to get to be maxi just relevant to pick :

Kayn : Actually goes always for the Red Kayn Kha'Zix : One of the only real relevant AD assassin kit, have super mobility and the only super scaling spell in both terms of base damage and AD scaling of the whole class, a 300 base damage and 240% AD ratio spell vs isolated people. Nocturne : Litteraly a joke, do not buils letha and do not take burst runes but Lethal Tempo + needed to get buffed like 3 times in a row Rengar : go Grasp toplane or Fleet Footwork jungle, otp rengar even build him tanky Zed : Needed 3 buffs in a row to be max worth to be picked Talon : Same thing + needed a + 7 base mr or smh like that to be relevant Shaco : the jokes on you this clown, you know the film It ? Now yu have an adaptation made in Riot Games "InT", seriously this guy has nothing in his kit, the lowest damaging spell of League as an assassin and just build ful on hit item and pray that anybody build Tabi otherwhise he s useless. Pyke : The other good assassin in his kit but they needed to put letha in his kit for that + before he just build tank and not assassin.

What I propose for that :

  1. Remove Duskblade from the game : This item is just pure cancer it s unfun it s broken it s what no one wanna see in League
  2. Buff the shit out of AD assassins kit, do not hesitate to fully/partially revert them, their kits are bad in general
  3. Nerf the shit out of mages items and runes, AP assassins are supposed to build AP assassin stuff, not liiteraly the exact same stuff than mages
  4. Bring some MR in every stuff possible, buff or rework Maw if you want, make GA having MR again but make sure that every champion in this game can build MR again
  5. Buff all the base MR stats, i think it s obvious to ask this when you see for example Renekton having like 100 armor for 53 MR lvl 18, armor being superior at lvl 1, like how can he has a chance against an AP ranged champion as a melee champion, he will just get all the spells in his face with no counterplay possible except trying to burst em, makes it worse when you put the same situation for champions like Darius whitch have litteraly no mobi spell as a melee champion so they can t reach em (and I didn t say make Darius have a dash, would be ridiculous btw).
  6. Bring back old youmuus, old BC and brutalizer.
  7. Full revert vision in this game.
  8. Make lethality a flat stat again.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Moody P

ADC players don't seem to grasp the reason they are squishy
Gameplay164 comments
135
votes
Just disable Sejuani then Riot
Gameplay61 comments
118
votes
Top lane is shrinking to range tops and the fighters/tanks who can deal with them
Gameplay197 comments
116
votes
Oh right, the Riot solution: Give it more damage
Gameplay89 comments
116
votes
you can't ask for a diverse meta if you also want surprise champs immediately nerfed
Gameplay69 comments
112
votes
Balancing around people who cant play well is absurd
Gameplay178 comments
103
votes