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ADC players don't seem to grasp the reason they are squishy

Moody P··135 votes·23,617 views

Do you know why you are getting nuked hard in an unfavorable meta? Because in the opposite situation you are untouchable. The ADC class has the best damage:counter play ratio out of any class and is therefore immensely valuable. "Late game insurance" has nothing to do with it; marksmen were still must pick back in season 2 when some fighters scaled equally as hard as a marksman. The only counter play to most marksmen is to remove them from the game. In a favorable meta this isn't even an option; tank meta means you stack tanks, one control mage and maybe an Enchanter and you let the two ADCs stat check down the rest of the team. Enchanter meta - same result.

And before someone says "well reduce the damage and make them tankier." One, almost none of you actually talk about this until you're confronted about asking for buffs to the mandatory class. Two, this will not change anything and honestly will probably make the game worse. You still have no mechanical counter play beyond getting removed from the equation entirely. Tankier ADC is just an attempt to sideline the issue; unless you are completely abandoned by your team most enemies can't do anything to you once you become relevant. Because this game is now DESIGNED around you being strong damage but extremely vulnerable. It's what assassins are designed to exploit. It's what enchanters are designed to negate. You have two classes minimum that exist solely around the premise that you are easy to kill. You cant change that on a whim.

Marksman have never and will probably never be completely irrelevant unless critical strike systems change massively or the champions get reworked to the same standards that carries from other classes have been getting. You know what happens when fighters or assassins are bad? They don't get picked. At ALL. Marksmen have never had this issue; one kind of marksman ends up weak so you pick another. Late game not happening? We pick Lucian and Draven. Early game doesn't matter? Bust out the Kog Maw. Utility carry meta? Sivir and Ashe. This is not a problem of marksmen being pushed out by assassins or mages; marksmen are just as guilty of doing this to each other as anyone else and we have 9 years of history to prove it.

Marksmen are simultaneously a compulsive pick and yet they are completely at the mercy of the game around them. Marksmen are almost never viable on their own merits and always become strong or weak as a response to the rest of the game, including which ADC itemization is strongest. Because they HAVE to be with the way they work. Yeah, the game doesn't always suck you off. It happens to all of us. You'll get your turn again; we all do. Fucking around with crit for the third time does not change this in the long term; if you want this dynamic to change then the champions need to change directly.

This isn't to put people down for not enjoying which champions are good right now. It's perfectly fine to want your champion to be better. But if you want a systemic change then you need to address the real issues surrounding the class. Issues that throwing numbers around on a slider will not solve.

164 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer37 votes

No, we fully see the reason.

What we would prefer is either a), that squishy-ness was actually given an appropriate reward, such that as we can be easily killed by anything, we should have the best damage to compensate for that OR b) we have less damage, but actually viable defensive tools so that we can perform our jobs as a damage class but not be sitting ducks.

We saw what happened with the first, everyone complained that ADCs were op and demanded Riot nerf them into the ground..which they did. Then we had a whole phase of ADCs being still incredibly squishy, but scaling less and slower than basically everyone else in the game and with a more expensive build (and still no good defensive options). It sucked.

Now Riot is trying out the other approach: lower damage output, but with more tools and better overall itemization (including viable defensive tools like the new PD shield). Personally, this is the option I would prefer, and I hope that the new system they rolled out performs well in that mission.

Jamenawerl5 votes

Then we had a whole phase of ADCs being still incredibly squishy, but scaling less and slower than basically everyone else in the game and with a more expensive build (and still no good defensive options). It sucked.

More or less true, but a lot of people seem to forget the other half of the issue, which is that Riot had been nerfing tank items and making them cheaper (cuz MUH DMG OUTSCALES DEFENSES), which combined with tank dmg buffs and new tank runes gave them a stupid midgame powerspike. My point is the problem wasnt as simple as "ADCs scaled slower".

Now Riot is trying out the other approach: lower damage output, but with more tools and better overall itemization (including viable defensive tools like the new PD shield). Personally, this is the option I would prefer, and I hope that the new system they rolled out performs well in that mission.

The thing is we already had a similar approach during season 2 and 3. Sure oneshot was harder so the game seemed more forgiving but good luck trying to kill an ADC who rushes BT and finishes his build with 2 tank items (legit tank items like randuins). Right now I cant remember the reason they gave to make tank items weaker and cheaper as I said before but I wouldnt be surprised if it was this same problem.

I think the point Moody is trying to make is that ADCs need a radical change in the way they function. As long as they are point and click ranged nuke spammers the fundamental problem will remain even if you change some numbers. They will either be useless or good enough to be one-shot worthy. They need more counterplay besides killing them.

Sir Saltarin2 votes

I think the point Moody is trying to make is that ADCs need a radical change in the way they function. As long as they are point and click ranged nuke spammers the fundamental problem will remain even if you change some numbers. They will either be useless or good enough to be one-shot worthy. They need more counterplay besides killing them.

I talked a lot about it with a Mod here that thinks similar but the problem is that he says that adcs as Ashe are fine kit wise so after that I started to feel that he didn't knew exactly what he wanted, he also always says that Riot was about to rework adcs after 8.11 but the evil adc mains forced Riot to buff them so they stopped reworking them, and it didn't mattered saying to him that it was only on his head, he is still sure and claims that was obvious that after 8.11 riot was about to rework all adcs.

He'll probably come to this thread and read this comment later, if I'm wrong on anything I said, please, Captain, correct me.

It can be changed, the way of how adcs work can be radically changed, it's not imposible.

But you have to be sure of what you are asking, and be coherent:

You are asking for a complete overhaul of the gameplay of:

Ashe Caitlyn Corki Draven Ezreal Jhin Jinx Kaisa Kalista Kindred (?)KogMaw Lucian MissFortune Quinn Sivir Tristana Twitch Varus Vayne Xayah

And no, the kits of more spellcasters as Lucian, MF or Ezreal are not fine if what you want to change is how adcs work, those adcs still share the same core gameplay that all adcs share and if you think that they are fine you dont really want to change adcs, you may think that you want it but deep down you still want adcs to be adcs. (And saying that Ashe wouldn't need a rework in this case is beyond surrealism)

And I mean a real overhaul, the Marksman Update of 5.21 would be a joke compared to this.

Is it posible? Yes, technically it can happen.

But the change isn't just massive, it's massive Not only because you would be reworking the core gameplay of 20 champs which is already the biggest change that would ever happen on this game but because the whole concept of the game would drastically change.

Adcs went to Botlane along with a champ that could be useful with no gold in the first place because EUW pro players realized that it was the correct way to play League of Legends, and soon the others regions copied them and all started to play adcs bot. It wasn't Riot at the start who decided to make Botlane for adcs, it was the Community and Riot saw that and then they enforced the idea of having an adc on Botlane for years and years.

Lol without adcs would be basically League of Legends 2: Electric Bugaloo (short joke, dont hate me).

As a conclusion: It's fair to want to have the adcs as they are now removed/reworked, but please then understand exactly what you are asking, how many years it would take Riot to completely rework the gameplay of 20 champs and how would the game be after that.

Sinceriously, by someome that has been playing adcs since 2012 and who literally started to play this game when I saw Caitlyn release.

Jamenawerl2 votes

Fair enough.

Still, I just realized there are 2 simpler approaches: Lets call em the Draven approach and the Ashe approach:

1- The Draven approach: I wouldnt say Draven is the healthiest ADC being so feast or famine and killing everyone in 2 autos but even then he still has some interesting counterplay like someone else said before. You make him drop his axes and he suddenly becomes much less dangerous without the need to kill him. So, counterplayable steroids. The opposite of Kog pressing a button and melting your team just because he pressed a button.

2- The Ashe approach: Basically you make marksmen picked for their utility instead of their insane damage and carry potential (ofc with exceptions, like in every other role). Because lets be honest, Ashe only gets picked when other ADCs are trash tier. She has it harder to 1v5 until way later in the game and she brings something unique to the table (permaslow, ranged initiation and scouting).

They may not solve everything but they would be a step forward, at least.

Maybe unrelated, but I think the best designed ADC (and my most played one) is Jhin. Some utility (insane pick potential), windows of power in his reloads, a clear niche (killing other squishies, specially ADCs) and a clear weakness (tanks kinda cuck him).

Sir Saltarin2 votes

1-Draven...

If all adcs had Draven level counterplay as you say it wouldn't change anything imo, he is gated by other adcs being more stable than him right now, but if all adcs were Dravenlike they would still compete against each others for botlane primacy, you could say that it would be an improvement and I wont say that it's wrong, but, the big picture of adcs botlane wouldn't change and yet the change would still be massive which means that is hard for Riot to do it and for the result that it would probably achieve I dont think it's worth the time.

2-Ashe...

Sorry if I laugh but it's just too repetitive, vast majority of ppl that dont play adcs and dislike how they work tend to think of Ashe as the healthiest adc in the game because they neither play Ashe or understand how she is played. (I have 140K mastery on Ashe btw)

First of all you have to understand that Ashe isn't picked for her utility with R and E at all, that's the most important thing that you have wrong. Remove all the adcs except Ashe from the game, would you pick her for her utility or because she's an adc ?

The latter, and you understand that playing Ashe because the core of her gameplay is being an immobile adc, not having utility.

Ashe having utility is what diferences her from the other adcs but her core is being an adc and she competes with the other adcs for botlane as the other adcs do.

That's exactly why I say that the change needs to be absolute if you want a real change, your Draven and Ashe approachs would just change things between them, it wouldn't change the core of the adcs that is what I though you guys wanted to change.

AjXtar11 votes

we should have the best damage to compensate for that

huh? Why should this be a thing. ADC have the long range and the supports to keep them alive.

Moody P21 votes

A) you have the advantage of range. Even in the era of ridiculous gapclosers that is still enormous. The ability to do DPS from distance is extremely valuable. That more than offsets the damage difference but this is also something I wanted to talk about as a separate topic;

ADC kits rely way too much on an item-based steroid (crit, or on hit of you're one of those) and not their own innate qualities. A better way to take them IMO is more unique innate steroids that help define their individuality better and give something more to play around. Even if it's AA based (and I think it should stay AA based for most ADCs) that immediately helps alleviate the issue that marksmen are gated behind an obnoxious pay wall before they can contribute to a team's success.

I'd also like to address how shockingly low utility some of them are but that might be pulling too far out of the comfort zone. But I enjoy champions like Ashe and Sivir the most.

Sir Saltarin3 votes

But I enjoy champions like Ashe and Sivir the most.

Hey Ashe is my third highest mastery and Sivir the 5th.

Does this mean that I should play Volibear when I play Jungle ?

Edit: Sivir is the 4th actually, she has just surpassed Ezreal on mastery.

Moody P13 votes

you should have already been playing Volibear

Yotq13 votes

Range doesn't matter for shit when every assassin has 23423425 dashes and almost every champion in the game has a source of hard CC.

Sir Saltarin7 votes

The counterplay to assasins when you play adc is your supp and your team peeling with you, you have a limited agency but it doesn't mean that assasins don't have counterplay, it's just that the counterplay isn't in your hands but on your team.

HopeStartsWithU6 votes

Which is a big fuck you to ADCs simply because you have to be DEPENDANT on either 4 fakers who know what they are doing or on 4 apes that let you die and blame you for not carrying. Which is the reason why I stopped maining ADCs.

Nobody wants to bet on his team in a mode called "Solo Queue." It doesn't feel fair tbh.

Sir Saltarin3 votes

And the reason why I still main adcs it's because I play almost always with preamde/s.

BestPudgeNA10 votes

{quoted}

Which is a big fuck you to ADCs simply because you have to be DEPENDANT on either 4 fakers who know what they are doing or on 4 apes that let you die and blame you for not carrying. Which is the reason why I stopped maining ADCs.

Nobody wants to bet on his team in a mode called "Solo Queue." It doesn't feel fair tbh.

Remember when Faker played Karma mid during worlds finals because giving shields to the ADC was more important then being the best player in the world. Truly was a fun meta for anyone that didn't main ADC.

Vekkna2 votes

But I enjoy champions like Ashe and Sivir the most.

Ditto! I play ADC as an off role, and these two have a similar fallback pattern to the mages I enjoy. You can succeed by playing well with the team, not just by crushing lane or solo-carrying late.

A better way to take them IMO is more unique innate steroids that help define their individuality better and give something more to play around.

Your complaint here is pretty specific to attack speed, actually. ADCs already have these unique steroids in some form, but their core builds inherently outscale the need to play around them. Early game ADC power revolves almost entirely around maximizing these steroids and playing around them well. It's a major skill factor in ADC play.

Using Ashe and Sivir as examples, a good Ashe will stack on minions, maintain the stack, and then trade with Q. A good Sivir will win short trades with a W reset and then gtfo (before 6). Jinx's Q has a good deal of this as well. What you're asking for here already exists in the game, and it's the very thing that most ADC players want to avoid. 100% of focus is spent on how quickly they can buy their way to right-click draintanking without having to leverage their kit.

I think you could find a new balance by using crit as a flat AD multiplier and cutting way back on attack speed scaling from items. This would give you bigger, slower damage without RNG and with a lot more reliance on attack speed steroids, spells, and utility. In short, the ADC baseline would be more along the lines of Jhin, Graves, and Ashe and less like Tristana, Twitch, and Vayne.

Hügö2 votes

b) we have less damage, but actually viable defensive tools so that we can perform our jobs as a damage class but not be sitting ducks.

So buying a defensive item instead of going full damage?

JackMcSnipeyz24 votes

There's a fine line between getting 1 shot by supports to going back to the ardent meta.

Please stop spamming "BuT ArDeNt mEtA 'mEmBeR?" Nobody liked that meta. But maybe go back a bit further when damage wasnt so high, and people needed to use stuff to 1 shot you.

No one is arguing that adc should eat a full zed combo and survive or duel him, but i dont need to die to R+AA duskblade when my support doesnt even have time to react. What's the point of having damage when i m out of the fight from 1 CC and a stray mage ability.

To put it on equal terms in your juggernaut brain (since i know you love circlejerking juggernauts) it would be like removing any catch potential, and MS boost in juggernauts kits and items since kiting them is their weakness and thats their counterplay.

Im sure you're gonna reply with some comment on how garen is mechanicly complex for having AA reset or something and marksmen are only right clicking to 1 shot everyone in a 700 unit radius.

Jamenawerl4 votes

There's a fine line between getting 1 shot by supports to going back to the ardent meta.

Even during ardent meta ADCs died to Brands E+R+ignite.

Thats just not the problem.

JackMcSnipeyz11 votes

Ardent meta made adc unkillable because of their supports. All their items have been nerfed, all shields have been nerfed, exhaust has been nerfed and marksmen base stats + items pricing and damage have been nerfed.

That's overkill, people are so caught up in the ardent meta that they cant grasp the idea that maybe it was a bit too much?

Nah, the guy who circlejerks juggernauts (probably the most polarizing class in the game) is gonna explain why marksmen need to get 1 shot by everything.

Axzarious4 votes

To be fair to mages, they suffer from the exact same frailty of ADCs. Except they actually have to land skillshots to kill people instead of having the conditions of "in Range" and "Right Click on the enemy". Mages actually NEED a fair bit more effort to outplay their opponents and pick up a kill than an ADC. While a mage might be able to kill an ADC in 2 or 3 spells, the ADC can easily kill the mage just as quickly with autos if they can get in range with a simple right click.

HàrrowR4 votes

{quoted}

To be fair to mages, they suffer from the exact same frailty of ADCs. Except they actually have to land skillshots to kill people instead of having the conditions of "in Range" and "Right Click on the enemy". Mages actually NEED a fair bit more effort to outplay their opponents and pick up a kill than an ADC. While a mage might be able to kill an ADC in 2 or 3 spells, the ADC can easily kill the mage just as quickly with autos if they can get in range with a simple right click.

That is one of the most outstandingly fake statements on this thread, no it's not a GIFT FROM GOD knowing how to hit a skillshot, no not all mages are even skillshot oriented, Malzahar, no its not easier to kill people with ADCs just for the fact that you don't have as clear windows of engagement, you can go in chasing a low hp Zoe only to eat her bubble and get deleted, if anything mages have one of the easiest kill conditions in the game, it's usually landing the CC and then doing the damage, most of the time you'll know exactly if you can kill an enemy or not and landing one CC on him will effectively make the rest of your kit as easy to land as an auto attack.

Axzarious3 votes

Oh FINE. I'll change mages to "Mages with the exception of fringe cases like malzahar who can potentially point and click to delete the ADC if they haven't bothered to buy a mercurial scimitar." There is also the flipside with ADCs like Twitch being capable of nuking a mage who lacks hard CC like a stun simply by pressing R and critting 2-3 times with the added burst of Statikk Shiv and getting a chunk of extra HP through lifesteal to survive the next part of the attack... though that was more of a problem when IE did 250% crit damage. So it's possible that will make a return.

It also seems that you're missing the point i'm trying to make here, so i'll put it more simply.

ADC vs Mage boils down to this: If the Mage misses their CC the ADC gets to auto them to death. The amount of Damage in this game right now has resulted in what amounts to 'rocket tag' between the two. The first one to make a mistake instantly loses. This assumes this fight is in a vacuum and that there are no summoner spells involved.

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

Mages have better itemization. Yes marksmen have tons of DPS but it's on the tipping point where it's overkill, mages do more than enough damage but can have utility and defenses in their build.

Tear active, zhonyas, health and resistances added onto core items, mages itemization gives them right enough of everything to function.

Mages also outrange every other class in the game, the thing about mages is that if lux misses her binding, she simply walks back, she doesnt need to put herself in danger, so the interaction between marksmen and mage is much more dynamic then "lux misses E adc 2 shots her". No other class can 1 shot you from the other side of the lane or CC an entire team while bursting them in the same motion, so simply comparing marksmen vs mages in a vaccum is kinda unfair.

Add on that the fact most mages have tons of utility and AoE and they do their JOB perfectly fine and even better, which is why they struggle less -in current balance state-

Axzarious2 votes

Better itemization? I'd disagree there. Mercurial Scimitar is huge, giving you a cleanse AND movement speed when you activate it. Death's Dance provides deceptive damage mitigation. Bloodthirster has some potential, but it's usually overshadowed - They should have left PD alone and then mucked about with BT's shield active... Maybe by making it something you build up by killing minions to activate it later? Or maybe just giving it the effect they gave PD?

Also, if you're getting hit by a lux Q at max range while you can both see eachother? Yeah, you probably deserve to die there considering you've had more than ample time to briskly walk out of the way.

Mages NEED that range, because the moment anything gets to them, they usually die.

When it comes to utility and defenses? Are you SURE you're playing League of Legends? I was going to throw a list of ADCs that had at least one of the two out here until I realized that I'd basically just listed every ADC in the game. Know what's easier? Listing the only ADC that DOESN'T have BOTH in their natural kit. Know who it is? Ezreal. Give him Iceborne Gauntlet and he's got utility.

JackMcSnipeyz4 votes

Better itemization? I'd disagree there. Mercurial Scimitar is huge, giving you a cleanse AND movement speed when you activate it.

Ignoring 1 CC (not even the damage part) is pretty good yes, however Mages have zhonyas, probably the best active in the game, makes mages kinda counter all dive attempts, which is why stopwatch mastery was mandatory before it was gutted, ignoring the armor and AP it gives.

Death's Dance provides deceptive damage mitigation

No one buys that, it's barely an adc item and even when they do the damage mitigation is not really enough because you'll pop instantly before you can life steal back your health.

Mages NEED that range, because the moment anything gets to them, they usually die

I never said they didnt need range, i just said their itemization is good enough that they have their own agency against their counters and it's not a simple "i picked paper, you lose"

When it comes to utility and defenses? Are you SURE you're playing League of Legends?

Are you sure you know what utility means? Creating entire no go zones in a teamfight Anivia Cassiopeia Lux Karthus with either slows/damaging or both is utility. Stunning groups of people on basic abilities is utility, knocking back/blocking entire paths is utility. You know what's defense? Having armor/MR/health on most core items item 3102 item 3007 item 3165 item 3116 item 3027 item 3151 item 3157

The most compareable level of utility on a marksmen is Xayah's E, im not even gonna mention defense because marksmen have none of that unless they go out of their way to sacrifice core stats early. And that's fine marksmen shouldnt be close to mages range and utility, that was not my point.

The point was Mages have tools and items to enable them to do their job and marksmen dont after the 8.11 patch and the further enchanters nerfs, unless you get all your team to play around you in soloQ. Im not asking for Twitch to be able to 1 shot from stealth again with 250% crit statik shiv, im simply saying that getting blown up by anyone in the game isnt a fair solution either, and there is (and was) a middle ground for a more balanced state.

Know who it is? Ezreal. Give him Iceborne Gauntlet and he's got utility

Ironically, the only marksmen who plays like a mage and can apply utility like a mage Ezreal

Paroe4 votes

{quoted}

Stunning groups of people on basic abilities is utility, knocking back/blocking entire paths is utility.

Caitlyn Ashe Azir Draven Jhin Kennen Quinn Tristana Vayne Did you know most marksmen have some form of powerful CC built into their kits? Joking with Azir and Kennen, but their sub class is marksman.

You know what's defense? Having armor/MR/health on most core items item 3102 item 3007 item 3165 item 3116 item 3027 item 3151 item 3157

Marksmen are largely AD and attack speed. In addition to access to lifesteal and a dedicated support to help them, they also wield incredible burst per second that rivals that of a dedicated burst mage. Mages and Marksmen have different dynamics which riot has itemized for accordingly. Where marksman are squishy due to their range and safety, mages require a more universal 'bruiser' approach due to their general lack of mobility. Further, all of those 'core items' you listed are situational based on kit and kind of champion. Many do not even purchase more than one of those, that one being Zhonyas. Every champion even has access to zhonyas active - the pocketwatch.

Ironically, the only marksmen who plays like a mage and can apply utility like a mage Ezreal

Ironically, you dont seem to understand that marksmen can be casters. Jhin Graves Lucian are all potent casters. Among them, ezreal and lucain are the only ones without CC in their kit and function more like mobile artillery platforms.

JackMcSnipeyz5 votes

Did you know most marksmen have some form of powerful CC built into their kits?

You're comparing Draven's E to a powerful form of CC? Caitlyn traps? Quinn tiny knockback? Honestly you cant be serious, the only one i'd say you're right on is tristana which i will never defend her design.

Mages and Marksmen have different dynamics which riot has itemized for accordingly

You're right, which is why i never called mages OP, just that their itemization is good for THEM to do THEIR job. I know you mage mains are highly triggered by thinking someone tries to shit on your class but rest assure that was not my inetion, more of a direction of what good itemization looks like.

Every champion even has access to zhonyas active - the pocketwatch.

If your active is so strong you'd waste a mastery/600 gold to use it 1 time, then you just proved my point.

Ironically, you dont seem to understand that marksmen can be casters.

There's a difference between AD casters and mages. Lucian and Graves use their spells but their auto attacks are still their main source of damage, their spells are short range and a way to weave between auto attacks. It's also why they dont suck at this meta. Ez plays like a Mage because he spams spells from long range and applies utility, that's what i meant by mage playstyle.

Axzarious4 votes

Slows and knockbacks are still utility, as are roots and stuns and even things like Sivir's ultimate which is even more utility. When used properly they can do just as much as some mage abilities can, even if they might not deal as much damage. So are roots.

Defensively? Sivir has a spell shield. Xayah has her ult. Even a properly timed Quinn or Vayne E can cockblock an enemy champion. This might also surprise you, but a Dash, Jump, or other form of movement skill is also a potent defensive tool. A tool you don't often see on mages.

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

You're comparing Draven's E to a powerful form of CC? Caitlyn traps? Quinn tiny knockback? Honestly you cant be serious, the only one i'd say you're right on is tristana which i will never defend her design.

Caitlyn traps a 1 second root that reveals. Draven E is a displacement that slows. Vayne is a knockback on a stun. Tristana is a displacement. Jinx is a root. Quinns knockback also puts HER backwards. Jhin is a root.

You're right, which is why i never called mages OP, just that their itemization is good for THEM to do THEIR job. I know you mage mains are highly triggered by thinking someone tries to shit on your class but rest assure that was not my inetion, more of a direction of what good itemization looks like.

Mage itemization is bruiser because they have to live long enough to get off a rotation or more. Because they are not AD, they are at a distinct disadvantage at all stages of the game in terms of damage because they do not have AD to fall back on while their cooldowns are up, nor do they have lifesteal to drain tank with. If your argument revolves around trying to shame and slander your opponents, id suggest leaving. The door opens at reddit.

If your active is so strong you'd waste a mastery/600 gold to use it 1 time, then you just proved my point.

Uhm... You say that, but then you also have the items that build out of it. Like GA. Mages dont get a GA, which is better by far than zhonyas. Mages also dont get mercurial scimitar, which is a massive item when its applicable.

There's a difference between AD casters and mages. Lucian and Graves use their spells but their auto attacks are still their main source of damage, their spells are short range and a way to weave between auto attacks. It's also why they dont suck at this meta. Ez plays like a Mage because he spams spells from long range and applies utility, that's what i meant by mage playstyle.

Casters are champions who rely on their abilities for a majority of their damage. Their abilities include their passives; Graves will Q2--> Auto ----> E ---> Auto ---> R to kill you. His passive augments his basic attacks, which do massive damage. Lucian will Q ---> Auto ---> W --> Auto ----> E ----> Auto ----> Q ----> Auto because hes a sheen-caster. Much like Riven, he is designed to weave basic attacks. Jhin will use his Q to poke, his W to CC, his E to slow, his ult to finish, and his passively augmented basic attacks (his fourth shot) for a majority of his damage. Jhin is assassin-esque where he has the tools to perform absurd damage very quickly.

The difference between an AD caster and an AP caster is that they HAVE DIFFERENT ITEMIZATION AVAILABLE. AP casters dont have access to the same effective bulk that AD casters do, and actually suffer for it. A mage who doesnt get at least a Ludens, rabbadons, and a spellbinder will not have the AP required to be truly effective as a burst caster where an AD bruiser who gets Hydra, Steraks, and Black cleaver WILL have enough bulk and damage to be effective.

Also, i generally play tanks... Not mages. Casters are fun and all, but in this meta they just arent fun. To much effort to get rolling, to easy to lose a lead with, small viable pool.

BestPudgeNA9 votes

{quoted}

No one is arguing that adc should eat a full zed combo and survive or duel him, but i dont need to die to R+AA duskblade when my support doesnt even have time to react.

Zed R. No time to react

https://imgur.com/r/contentawarescale/U6xWtZJ

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

I'll better explain, the window of reaction got a lot smaller, when in the past a support could still shield after the initial R+AA because the damage was lower/shield sponged more damage, now it's either CC zed before he lands a single Q/AA or waste lulu ult+shield+heal and even then you will probably die.

For what it's worth i do believe zed is obe of the healthier assassins, maybe rengar or talon would be better examples.

Serika Zero2 votes

Go in, one shot, go out by pressing just one button. healthy. going in, one shot and then work your way out to escape: not healthy. yeh, you and riot are on the same board.

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

Zed ult is deleyed, he used to have to hit his skillshots to gurantee the kill, the point is, he had reaction time and proper counterplay.

Talon and rengar are simply pop out of stealth 1 shot with heavy frontloaded burst and you die, wether or not they have to fight their way out is not the concern because they did their job, and they cant fuck up because countering them is not up to you but how behind they are.

Yea, zed is way more healthy as an assassin.

kingDeDeDarius17 votes

Well thought out post I must say

Yotq16 votes

You obviously don't play ADC.

Warlord Rhinark15 votes

The ADC class has the best damage:counter play ratio out of any class and is therefore immensely valuable.

No wait a second.

I thought that was Mages?

Critmaster Garen53 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jg3IEvL0,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-06T14:10:00.961+0000)

No wait a second.

I thought that was Mages?

mages tend to have their burst designed around skillshots. skillshots have inherent counterplay. there are exceptions and problematic champions in every class, and even when they do have kit inherent counterplay theyre not neccessarily good champions because of individual problems.

but marksmens lack of counterplay is a systematic issue with the entire class.

there are however also very few marksmen who do have counterplay inbuilt into their kits.

hilariously enough those are Ezreal Draven

its just that they have entirely different issues. ezreals q being able to apply on hit effects makes him the king of item abuse. dravens passive makes him so feast or famine that draven players have a reputation of being notoriously toxic, because when theyre not steamrolling games, they tend to be impotent for the entire game, which makes them snap really fast when games are not going well for them.

but fundamentally speaking, their kits are designed around mechanics that have actual counterplay, and they dont just rely on piling up stats onto their auto attacks alone, but how well they utilize the mechanics their kits offer.

if you make draven drop his axes, you severely cut into his carry potential.

if you manage to dodge ezreals q and especially his w, you are actually able to fight him without having to straight up outstat him, like other adc. he doesnt get to reduce the cooldowns on his abilities when he doesnt hit you, which makes him less mobile.

basically, their kits have elements theyre built around, that are unreliable. this unreliability justifies their carry potential.

if you compare this to champions like Vayne there is only one single element in her kit that is unreliable and directly outplayable, which is her wall stun, and it doesnt even matter, because its attached to a direct target displacement which is worse than the stun itself for a lot of champions. this makes vayne an entirely 100% stat check champion. (yes, attack range is a stat too).

Mordepool14 votes

Some marksmen players delude themselves about these facts

AirKingNeo1 votes

That's discrimination.

Mordepool6 votes

Go read a dictionary. Ill wait

AirKingNeo4 votes

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discrimination

Ok, just so we're clear, there's a definition that says, "prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment".

Your outlook on ADC players is prejudicial; a stereotype. That would be discriminating.

SpyKayle5 votes

{quoted}

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discrimination

Ok, just so we're clear, there's a definition that says, "prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment".

Your outlook on ADC players is prejudicial; a stereotype. That would be discriminating.

I believe he said some ADC players, so it wouldn't be all adc players. Just some. Which technically speaking, it is very plausible that some do delude themselves of such things.

Jamenawerl5 votes

if you compare this to champions like Vayne there is only one single element in her kit that is unreliable and directly outplayable, which is her wall stun, and it doesnt even matter, because its attached to a direct target displacement which is worse than the stun itself for a lot of champions. this makes vayne an entirely 100% stat check champion. (yes, attack range is a stat too).

I think Vaynes original intended counterplay was to back up when she had 2 stacks of silver bolts on you so she had to either chase you with her short range and risk it or change target and lose DPS.

Not that it matters now that she nukes people with Q and applies W every 2 autos.

Paquay19 votes

Biggest on-hit abuser: Soraka

Her AAs are so slow, she can throw a bunch of them during laning phase, then come late game sell all her support items, buy her on-hit items, and wait for them puppies to land.

Thefrostyviking13 votes

OP having read this i agree with mostly everything you wrote however there is some i wish to debate, you see i dont think marksmen fail to understand rather many just didnt know what to actually ask for to ensure it doesn't come back to bite them later.

Marksmen have indeed have had their survival tied to others as a demerit to having the DPS potential that they do, however this creates a massive problem right away, because when the marksman and their assistants are capable of enduring the attackers then the attackers become useless, the main ones here being assassins, burst mages and divers,but when the marksmen and their assistants(supports&peeling frontliners mainly) cant endure they become useless instead.

Right from the very start its setup so that at least 2 classes will always be in a state of uselessness, this from my perspective is not something many seems to have actually paid any attention to

To circumvent the problem of botlane being too good at surviving it was made so that often when the attacker plays their cards well it doesnt matter if the botlane did everything they could, they die anyway, which naturally tilts the poor buggers, and the combos were made to be quick to make it so that they wouldnt be easily interrupted once they start as the attackers would be too weak otherwise.

Thus we saw a demand for marksmen with enhanced self peel, lucian and kai´sa being prime examples, they have less raw DPS than a kog but they are many times harder to kill in return when played by a experienced hand BUT they still deal enough damage to easily kill most non tank targets which creates a niche for the "anti tank" ones to be in.

Then we have a situation where the attackers need more damage once again to be viable, they need enough damage to kill even if something gets dodged....and this is a single attacking person as well, and there was also a need for the defenders to be better at peeling as the nonmobile ones still could not survive on their own.

Assassin/mage/fighter buffs followed by support ones+new items for supports.

Oh and at a point we had the part with tanks being made tankier to differentiate them from other melee which prompted a need for more damage to compensate for that as well, while other melee either remained the same or were made less durable, which resulted in tanks being so durable that they could not really be killed by anyone except specialists on the basis that their resistances were too high and their healthbars massive as well, which created the idea that true damage and max health damage were good to double down on.

The tank update, the addition of Conqueror, infinity edge reworked into doing true damage and item 3151 buffs, it wasnt until this point i think that marksmen just sat down saying "FK it man we dont need more damage, we need help to stay alive to use what we have!"

At a similar point i think many if not most others also started asking for survival buffs, everyone except the tanks had started dying very very quickly.

But that request from those marksmen is infact a poorly considered one, it would simply trigger the wheel to spin again, a cycle of a kind which is very much what no one really wants, so those who spent some time thinking instead asked for lower damage but more defenses instead, and it seems this is the path Riot has chosen to go with to a degree.

Its shown with the recent changes of item 3046 anditem 3031 to be specific, item 3031 losing its true damage and reverted to a past edition but a nerfed state in exchange for item 3046 becoming a huge survival booster, hopefully something will change with how things play out here, because when the marksmen lose damage they dont need to die so quickly and everyone will have more room to breathe.

Because if the time is extended then there is more time for things like multiple rotations, multiple skillshots and more need to move around and position correctly.

Assassins can still jump in and deal huge damage, but even if they fail a outright kill they can go back out and then jump in again a couple seconds later, many of them have gained the tools for that.

Enhancers can become more team oriented rather than marksman only.

The only thing left i worry about is the tanks&conqueror deal that is left, because while Conqueror is a issue its also true that tanks just soaking damage like nothing and then using base damage to kill someone building damage before they themselves die is kinda ridiculous......in addition to a few outliers like Vayne with item 3124 that are equally ridiculous or worse.

Iota Theta8 votes

The only thing left i worry about is the tanks&conqueror deal that is left, because while Conqueror is a issue its also true that tanks just soaking damage like nothing and then using base damage to kill someone building damage before they themselves die is kinda ridiculous.

I know not part of the ADC discussion, but since you brought this up...

Part of this could be the lesser prevalence over time of Cleaver and Whisper items. Fighters and juggernauts continually opt into Trinity over Cleaver, which reduces the power to fight a tank, and Last Whisper items seemed to rarely be picked up. Part of this stems from what you picked up on though, damage coming out faster and higher. Chanps aren’t picking up Cleaver or %Pen because they need the upfront burst to kill the other damage dealers. Perhaps as things shift away from that, some focus could be put back into armor pen items, which do favor the DPS of ADCs and sustained damage Fighters

As a tank lover, I couldn’t care less if I die faster because you built the items to deal with me. It’s when you build to kill squishies and still beat me that I get a annoyed. Cut my own damage if necessary.

Moody P3 votes

Yes, I agree. Maybe I didn't emphasize it enough but my main point was that any change that will work long term needs to go deeper than throwing around the numbers on kits and items .

Tanks shouldn't have % damage. Especially not the ridiculous amounts that some of them have like Ornn being able to do close to 80% max HP in a full rotation. They really don't need to be capable of dueling people unless they're specifically made to, like Shen.

Thefrostyviking4 votes

.....I ended up ranting so much that i was unclear myself, but i understood and i do agree with the point that more work is indeed needed than what was just done, however i also think what was done is a starting point that points in a good direction.

As for the specifics of more detailed and in-depth work i am not really cleaver enough to come up with any good answers on my own but i recall seeing a boards post highlighting a video by Phreak (and i just doubled checked it to make sure) that struck me as very much on point.

I saw you commented on it as well so you definitely know about it, so as far as in depth work perhaps something like that would be an excellent start? Then added with removing those truly strange parts like Ornns 80% max health damage or Vayne+rageblade would probably not solve every issue people take with league and it would be a lot of work, but i personally believe that doing so would go a long good way.

Clarifying champion identities, their roles, what they should and should not be able to do would in turn help one determine when a champion is out of line or underperforming more easily as well.

But at some point he did discuss the crit marksmen and their lack of interactive play as well, they just stand there and shoot (often from a long distance) which is unhealthy and a issue on it´s own, things like that could use in depth work as well to make them more like Kaisa Lucian who even if possibly overtuned now do at least interact with their opponents and have things they let them react to more than autos flying from far far away doing lots of damage.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Can I pick your brains on what you think of Shen out of interest?

I'll drink a barrel of your finest Volibear piss.

Moody P2 votes

I really don't like the floating sword gimmick but I think his W is really cool.

It's kind of a bummer that riot had to do him so dirty because of pro play.

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