Balancing around people who cant play well is absurd

Moody P·Dec 3, 2018·103 votes·19,571 views

Why do we do this? It doesn't work.

You can't have a balanced game if you nerf or intentionally keep champs weak just to appease your worst players.

The answer to a Bronze player complaining about Garen or Yorick is telling them how to improve against them; they should be incentivized to be better until they are not a problem to the player anymore. Rewarding their complaints with nerfs only keeps them in Bronze; they have learned nothing, those champion's will probably still stomp them, but now they're dramatically worsened higher up the ladder.

Lets put a cap on this.

178 Comments

OleandervineDec 3, 201851 votes

You know what the game has the most of? Players who are gold and below. You know what the has the least of? Players who are Platinum or above. You who you lose if you only cater to the players who are Platinum and above? Your entire player base. Your game will literally die if you do not build the game around making sure your lower skilled players remain satisfied. They will never improve, go up in rank, form professional teams, and compete in eSports if you do not make sure you retain those players from the start. It's utterly stupid to allow lower level monstrosities and strategies drive frustration levels through the roof, because those players at that level will leave, and everything you've worked for will dry up. You'll only be left with the high skilled players, and eventually they'll move on leaving you with nothing.

So no, balancing the game around people who can't play well isn't absurd. It's how you grow the game and keep the VAST MAJORITY of your playerbase engaged.

AlzonDec 3, 20186 votes

free to play game btw

Critmaster GarenDec 3, 201818 votes

{quoted}

You know what the game has the most of? Players who are gold and below. You know what the has the least of? Players who are Platinum or above. You who you lose if you only cater to the players who are Platinum and above? Your entire player base. Your game will literally die if you do not build the game around making sure your lower skilled players remain satisfied. They will never improve, go up in rank, form professional teams, and compete in eSports if you do not make sure you retain those players from the start. It's utterly stupid to allow lower level monstrosities and strategies drive frustration levels through the roof, because those players at that level will leave, and everything you've worked for will dry up. You'll only be left with the high skilled players, and eventually they'll move on leaving you with nothing.

So no, balancing the game around people who can't play well isn't absurd. It's how you grow the game and keep the VAST MAJORITY of your playerbase engaged.

youre assuming that low mmr players will ever be statisfied. the nerfs to yorick and garen did shit in low mmr, because they dont grasp how to fight these champions conceptually, while their kits are some of the simplest to understand in the game.

all it did was hurt their high mmr viability.

people down there dont even understand that these champions are fighters.

Moody PDec 3, 201827 votes

nobody will get better when they're catered to

you'll still maintain a Bronze mindset if you scream about pub stomp champions until Riot gives you your way. What do you learn from that? Nothing. You'll still lose to them, and you'll still be Bronze.

lol

OleandervineDec 3, 201813 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lelwAtXu,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2018-12-03T19:36:15.243+0000)

nobody will get better when they're catered to

you'll still maintain a Bronze mindset if you scream about pub stomp champions until Riot gives you your way. What do you learn from that? Nothing. You'll still lose to them, and you'll still be Bronze.

lol

No, you won't. Because if ONE or TWO champions are dominating the lower levels, those champions are problems. If the pub stompers are removed, that gives lower level people more opportunity to improve their skills without resorting to one tricking pub stompers who will become inept once they get to higher levels of play. If there is a severe imbalance in the lower levels, it becomes (for example) "Play Garen or lose to Garen," forcing people to play certain cheesy tactics and tricks in order to not be decimated by the cheesy tactics. You can't learn from being pub stomped, WAY MORE SO than what you claim you can't learn if those champions are reigned in. How the hell do you expect people to learn to play any of the 135+ champions they really like if they're forced into tactics that revolve around being or explicitly countering pub stompers?

Moody PDec 3, 20189 votes

by learning how to play against them

Almost all pub champs have really simple counter play even of it isn't immediately obvious like a skillshot is

Chromatic EagleDec 3, 20183 votes

How do you play against them?

Moody PDec 3, 20188 votes

Garen is the easier of the two to handle. Particularly in low MMR where they think he's still a lane bully (and he is since they let him get away with it), Garen's going to run Grasp and fish for Q poke. For one, this is telegraphed and you can see when he'll move forward to do it. Check him with your CC spell if you have it. In addition to that, his Q is still a very slow move despite being an auto attack and you have time to hit him with something even if you didn't throw stuff at him on his way in. Garen's trades rely on catching you with your pants down and hitting you for quick shots before he backs up; if you can't flat out deny the trade altogether then most top laners can easily hit him with something as he attempts to back up and extend the trade, making it greatly unfavorable for Garen in most cases.

Yorick is only as relevant as you let him be. He NEEDS ghouls to become a threat. IIRC at rank 1 it's a 7 second cooldown, so because he needs 3 ghouls before he can spawn them it's a minimum of 21 seconds (28, if he's playing correctly) before he can make a play on you. It's as simple as harassing him over every minion; every Q that he wastes on you in a trade is to your advantage, because that's another Q he hasn't used to get his ghouls into play. People give Yorick far too much respect in lane and then they wonder why he checks them with his E pokes. Just shit on him; it's basically universal that Yorick will lose every trade if he doesn't have ghouls ready.

Z3SleeperDec 4, 20182 votes

Yorick is OP he keeps tossing 20g worth of moneybags at me every ~25 seconds. Unplayable lane.

TeCoolMageDec 4, 20181 votes

actually if you nerf something into the ground hard enough it'll be irrelevant even vs. bronze players. That's just how the game works.

Moody PDec 4, 20182 votes

Sure, but that's not balancing, that's flat removing a champion from the game

NaalithDec 3, 20187 votes

As a platinum player, I gotta say the game is balanced around people so exponentially better than me that I'm basically bronze compared to them. If you're not a pro player or in like the top 1000 ladder players, the game is ass right now, full stop.

Critmaster GarenDec 3, 20185 votes

{quoted}

As a platinum player, I gotta say the game is balanced around people so exponentially better than me that I'm basically bronze compared to them. If you're not a pro player or in like the top 1000 ladder players, the game is ass right now, full stop.

depends on the champions. tanks and marksmen are balanced around pro play.

a lot of juggers get dicked on by nerfs, because of low mmr on the other hand because "how is x balanced while being tanky and dealing damage?".

SwiftKitten88Dec 3, 20183 votes

{quoted}

As a platinum player, I gotta say the game is balanced around people so exponentially better than me that I'm basically bronze compared to them. If you're not a pro player or in like the top 1000 ladder players, the game is ass right now, full stop.

exactly

the whole "removal of vision"

not a single damn person in solo que can rely on thier random teammates to ward..

the fact they got rid of "trackers knife" becuase it gives the pros too much vision".

ONLY EXISTS because THEY ARE A 5 MAN VICE CHAT TEAM OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE GAME.

there a PLENTLY of scenarios that even a pro player put into a non pro game... couldn't play X way because he dones't have 4x pro teammates communicating and working with him.

just becuase "pros can do X" donest mean ANYONE can do X"

it donest matter HOW fucking good you are.. if u are given random teammates and the only way to talk to them is via text.. which you need to be not controlling your char to type.. it is IMPOSSIBLE to do certain things.

high elo meta and low elo meta are COMPLETELY different

because there are thing u can guarantee your high elos teammates will do... that in low elo... becuase u know they WON'T do it.. u need to play differently

Fire BlaustoiseDec 3, 20184 votes

So no, balancing the game around people who can't play well isn't absurd. It's how you grow the game and keep the VAST MAJORITY of your playerbase engaged.

Taking pleasure in mediocrity... thats why nobody take seriously low elo opinion and pov.

If your are gold or below, the balance isnt your main concern.

OleandervineDec 3, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Blaustoise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lelwAtXu,comment-id=00020004,timestamp=2018-12-03T21:12:46.153+0000)

Taking pleasure in mediocrity... thats why nobody take seriously low elo opinion and pov.

If your are gold or below, the balance isnt your main concern.

No, but getting dominated by threats that are allowed to be problems because they simply collapse once they hit high levels of play is. Illaoi is a huge example of this. She was garbage in upper tiers, but completely destroyed in low level tiers. It required her kit to be rebalanced entirely after her release so that she wouldn't have such a gross balance curve that evaporated with skill level. Problems like Illaoi were problems at low level, and even in casual caused a meta of "play this or lose" which has spelled the death and near demise of many competitive games for decades. Magic the Gather had a similar problem happen in the early 00s in it's Mirrodin block, where the supreme high power of certain style of deck caused this type of gameplay and nearly ended the game because the frustration caused so many people to leave the game entirely. So while you may think the opinions of low level people don't matter, they are the backbone of this game, and if you frustrate them into leaving, they take all of their money for buying skins, all of the potentials you had for people who might have eventually skilled up to become higher levels or professionals, and you also create horrible word of mouth advertising where they'll actively dissuade their friends from playing because of their own frustrations that made them quit. Basically, if you shit on the people who play casually or at lower levels, those at the top will wither and suffocate if the game runs out of money because people are leaving in droves and can't support itself anymore.

AseraanDec 3, 20182 votes

Sadly what you wrote down is not champion's kit problem is the player skill problem the reason behind this is simple if you take the champ and you see that she cant play in high elo cuz ppl can play aginst her and she stomps in low elo for the opposite reason THAT IS ppl dont know how to play against her.

And that is not a champion problem but a player problem.

Oakleaf RangerDec 3, 20184 votes

Well that depends on what kind of people you want to attract and make up your playerbase. You can balance a game around bad players but as others have said people who are bad and don't want to improve will never be happy unless you just give them free wins doing whatever they want.

And thats how you kill a game.

Nobody that appreciates skill will play your game. The bad players will leave once the free wins stop making them feel good about it before moving on to something else. Then everyone calls your game a joke.

Chess is a game with large depth to it that has existed for generations. Its proof that a game that doesn't cater to the lowest common denominator can exist without dying.

OleandervineDec 3, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Oakleaf Ranger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lelwAtXu,comment-id=00020005,timestamp=2018-12-03T21:22:18.885+0000)

Well that depends on what kind of people you want to attract and make up your playerbase. You can balance a game around bad players but as others have said people who are bad and don't want to improve will never be happy unless you just give them free wins doing whatever they want.

And thats how you kill a game.

Nobody that appreciates skill will play your game. The bad players will leave once the free wins stop making them feel good about it before moving on to something else. Then everyone calls your game a joke.

Chess is a game with large depth to it that has existed for generations. Its proof that a game that doesn't cater to the lowest common denominator can exist without dying.

You bring up chess like it's some massively popular game that has thousands upon thousands of players, and is enjoyed casually at home with a group of friends. It's not. It has existed because it's developed an imperviousness due to the age it came to power in, and the adoption of the game by sophisticates and intellectuals, which prevented its demise because it was basically preserved by an elite - that, and the game doesn't require a constant monetary injection in order to keep working.

What you're not accounting for is that there are LOTS of people who play this game casually. Thousands of them. They're not all pros, hell, most are probably not even gold. But they play because they like the gameplay, the characters and all that. There is a competitive side to it, and some people utilize it to rank up, but for the vast majority of players, ranked doesn't factor into their enjoyment of the game. Your overdramatizing things and oversimplifying, because if you do not reign in pub stompers in the lower levels, you will drive away new and casual players entirely - no one can appreciate skill or even the game if there's no one left to play it. Without casual and new players, the game loses it's source of income, because you're driving away the thousands who would be paying for skins and other content, and without funding, the game dies. Furthermore, for the people who do dominate the game using pub stompers, you're also artificially giving them the impression that they're skilled with the game, when they're really not. Anyone with middling levels of skill can use an OP champion and dominate, but they will plateau at some point, and cause the same problem of stifling the higher ranks when no one is around to actually rise to those levels. All in all, it's unhealthy for the game to allow OP characters to exist in any rank, but especially the low ranks where they are the most likely to upset and drive away the most important player group for the game.

IfnethDec 4, 20182 votes

Or just actually care about the enjoyment of the game by people who aren’t Plat+. It’s selfish to demand that the game be balanced purely around your own elo, whether you’re high or low.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 4, 20182 votes

bad players being the most important group in a competitive game LUUUUUUUL

charge attackDec 3, 20185 votes

{quoted}

You know what the game has the most of? Players who are gold and below. You know what the has the least of? Players who are Platinum or above. You who you lose if you only cater to the players who are Platinum and above? Your entire player base. Your game will literally die if you do not build the game around making sure your lower skilled players remain satisfied. They will never improve, go up in rank, form professional teams, and compete in eSports if you do not make sure you retain those players from the start. It's utterly stupid to allow lower level monstrosities and strategies drive frustration levels through the roof, because those players at that level will leave, and everything you've worked for will dry up. You'll only be left with the high skilled players, and eventually they'll move on leaving you with nothing.

So no, balancing the game around people who can't play well isn't absurd. It's how you grow the game and keep the VAST MAJORITY of your playerbase engaged.

Except there is no “consensus” in bronze/silver players. Most of them know too little about the game to really make a good judgement on what’s good or bad. They just decide what’s good/bad on their personal “feeling”. Bronze player #1 could think Shaco is the best champ in the game while Bronze player #2 might think he’s the worst champ and tries to dodge every time he has one on his team. Most of the time they have no real reason as to why.

So nerfing champs that are pubstomping low elo statistically is fine - but trying to balance around the opinions of a few silver players that shout on boards is gonna kill your game much quicker.

AseraanDec 3, 20182 votes

You know what the game has the most of? Players who are gold and below.

And did you know these players cant tell if the game is in terrible state or not?

OleandervineDec 3, 20184 votes

{quoted}

You know what the game has the most of? Players who are gold and below.

And did you know these players cant tell if the game is in terrible state or not?

I am not debating if these people have sound judgments in terms of game balance. I am debating that genuine problems, like Garen and Illaoi have both been in the past in low ELO, need to be reigned in in order to maintain a semblance of order and balance in lower levels and casual areas of play. Illaoi and Garen in the past were acknowledged by Riot to be unhealthy for low levels of play despite being dead weight the higher people went with them - this was an instance where it was very visible that there was something inherently wrong with how they were operating and how people were responding to them. In fact, one of the key factors as to why people in higher ELO weren't affected was because they had a much larger view and knowledge on perfect team compositions as well as better understanding on positioning and communication. Casual gamers obviously don't have this extensive game knowledge, and character like Garen and Illaoi in the past could way too easily punish people who didn't have this kind of game knowledge. That is why both of them underwent kit overhauls to prevent them from being so capable of dominating at lower levels of play.

Critmaster GarenDec 3, 201845 votes

revert the yorick nerfs, and buff garens spin pls.

edit.: you know what? just do some goddamn work on villainy. it needed it since the juggernaut rework. it just needs to not hit the wrong champion all the time. janna isnt the carry i need to shut down, just because she got a random kill.

AlzonDec 3, 201810 votes

Rework it to mark the enemy(s) with the highest bounty.

Critmaster GarenDec 3, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Rework it to mark the enemy(s) with the highest bounty.

ive already made this post, but i wouldnt mind if villainy just gets replaced by atmas reckoning passive. it would make him similar to darius who just keeps ramping up over the course of a fight.

like, he wouldnt be helpless anymore with q and spin on cooldown, stuck in melee range because 400 ad auto attacks still hurt. and the second rotation becomes really dangerous.

add a removal of the resistance cap on his w, or a % missing health heal to a successful execute and it might actually work out pretty well.

all in all, it would give him more agency over his own kit.

Moody PDec 3, 201816 votes

Villainy ought to be replaced with more appreciable mechanics that have the same general function (anti carry/anti bruiser.)

Garen is still a top 5 favorite for me but the Villain shit really puts me off playing him sometimes.

Spicy RiceDec 3, 201816 votes

It's definitely real fun to be in a team fight, and to suddenly get one shot by a garen because you randomly became the villain

NaalithDec 3, 201819 votes

Well that's good considering like 90% of balancing is done for pro play which has ruined the game. I agree the Yorick nerfs, as a recent example, should be reverted (and I'm a Yorick guy so I mean it) but we also need to stop opening up ways to exploit and kill people instantly because pros play so defensively. Most people who play the game regularly don't give a shit if pro is fun to watch.

The game should be balanced around high plat to mid diamond players. They know how to play and what's effective there is likely to be effective elsewhere, but it's not so exponentially better like pros are where the game is literally tailored around a thousand or so people.

Moody PDec 3, 201811 votes

I would argue that recent burst add-ons like Duskblade etc have been for the "benefit" of soloQ more than to shake up pro play.

Things like this are much more significant to less coordinated play and we don't really see lethality assassins in pro most of the time.

saltranDec 3, 20185 votes

This, but unironically.

ModWulf HelhammerDec 3, 20188 votes

The game is balanced primarily around plat to diamond.

Aside from a few patches in September focused on Worlds play, the vast majority of balance changes are focused on that standard high elo play, with changes aimed at both organized play and low elo sprinkled in.

ShirukuSamaDec 4, 20184 votes

The game is balanced primarily around plat to diamond.

In Yorick's case, it's simply not true.

As Riot said in 8.17 patch notes:

Top laners have unearthed Yorick as a dominant pick, in part due to the threat of his Mist Walkers. Players who understand the Mist Walkers' behavior and actively play around it avoid a lot of damage, while players who don't find themselves digging their own graves. We're toning down the damage of Mist Walkers to decrease his low level pubstomp potential.

So they admitted that Yorick was not a threat in high elo, bronzies just bad and Yorick had to be nerfed because of them. At this time he had 52% WR in high elo and 3% pick rate... (patch 8.16) http://www.op.gg/champion/yorick/statistics/top

Actually, I don't get these recently minion nerfs. They've designed him this way, as a split pusher minionmancer, yet they keep nerfing his minions until he becomes a Nasus Q Bot with a misty waifu.

CHODES AND LOADSDec 3, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Well that's good considering like 90% of balancing is done for pro play which has ruined the game. I agree the Yorick nerfs, as a recent example, should be reverted (and I'm a Yorick guy so I mean it) but we also need to stop opening up ways to exploit and kill people instantly because pros play so defensively. Most people who play the game regularly don't give a shit if pro is fun to watch.

The game should be balanced around high plat to mid diamond players. They know how to play and what's effective there is likely to be effective elsewhere, but it's not so exponentially better like pros are where the game is literally tailored around a thousand or so people.

balancing for pro play didnt ruin rift -- balancing for tournament views ruined rift. riot got that throbbing hardon for NONSTOP ACTION WATCH TWO PRO TEAMS FACE OFF AGAINST EACH OTHER SO WE CAN MAKE MONEY OFF OF SPONSORSHIPS. they dont give a flying fuck whether or not the game is fun to play, theyre more obsessed with trying to make it fun to watch at the cost of it being a miserable experience to actually play. rift is fucking dogshit terrible, leagee is only tolerable in knock around game modes anymore.

SwiftKitten88Dec 3, 201811 votes

balancing a champion around only 2% of the player-base is absurd.

Moody PDec 3, 201813 votes

The whole point of playing a competitive game is to get better at it. Why would you try to balance around people who are either playing casually or who are not getting better unless you want a casual game? (Riot doesn't)

PoskeDec 4, 20183 votes

{quoted}

balancing a champion around only 2% of the player-base is absurd.

balancing a champion around players who cant play a champion is even more absurd

ModCaptainMårvelousDec 3, 201811 votes

+1.

Riot should also give players more assistance in learning how to deal with champs. Sadly, the problem is people don't want to get better, they just play casually and want to lock in their favorite character every game. If (the metaphorical) you hit a roadblock, the most common response is to ask the Riot Government to tear down the roadblock rather than go around it.

He4rtkillerDec 4, 20187 votes

On the other hand overbuffing hard(er) to play champs like Akali, Irelia, Aatrox so that people that are not good enough can play them and do good is beyond terrible.

RaiyzaDec 3, 20185 votes

just because low leveled players like myself (gold5) have difficulty dealing with certain champions, doesn't mean my opinion is wrong. In fact, Zoe was nerfed and everyone was complaining.

Pro players even argue that Irelia is currently broken (see Scarra).

Moody PDec 3, 20184 votes

When you say Garen has no counter play, you're wrong. Its your opinion, sure.

But it's wrong.

RaiyzaDec 3, 20181 votes

No no, I will agree about Garen. I'm stating in general.

However, many people share my opinion on Irelia, Akali, and Leblanc. Including Diamond + Players. It doesn't mean they can't be beat, but it does mean that these champions may be a bit too strong.

Moody PDec 3, 20183 votes

Those aren't low elo champions, though. Like, Akali is only overbearing in Masters - even in Diamond her winrate plummets to absolute dog shit. That's not the situation I'm trying to discuss.

What my issue is, is that the champions I tend to enjoy playing (Juggernauts) usually have simple kits and simple counterplay that isn't immediately apparent to low elo players or just gets ignored entirely - therefore, to keep them from being "too strong," Riot keeps them generally weak-ish. They've been doing it to Yorick since his rework, and he's probably the most egregious example of it.

RaiyzaDec 3, 20181 votes

You should have mentioned Juggernauts in your OP. I thought you were just using garen and yorick as examples of all complaining by low elo.

But I don't play those champions so I can't disagree with you there.

ModAcademy KaynDec 4, 20185 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/47120f5272b12a51195eca76fcc8b921.png

LacerationDec 4, 20185 votes

exactly so buff zed because hes trash in high elo

macspamDec 4, 20184 votes

They already do balance for pro and high ELO. Balance for low ELO exists but its not that much. You use this example of garen but when they nerfed him wasnt he strong up to diamond anyway?

Regardless the problem with garen isnt that people dont know how to run away when he activates Q. Its that he deals assassin level of damage while having tank leveI of sustain resistances and health. Similar to darius but worse in lane phase and better later because of his regen resistance and tenacity. Like AP malphite will one shot you without much counterplay but at least if you cc him he is killable. Master Yi will kill your whole team but if you cc him hes dead. It should be possible for a team to gang up on a tanky champ but when garen has a few items thats just not possible. Which is not automatically a bad thing (see rammus) but he shoulsnt be able to one shot carries.

BlåbæretDec 4, 20184 votes

This game is 90% balanced around pro play and not low elo. Why do you think Sejuani is the most garbage champion in the game? It certainly isn't because of bronze.

WoodenCreatureDec 4, 20183 votes

{quoted}

This game is 90% balanced around pro play and not low elo. Why do you think is the most garbage champion in the game? It certainly isn't because of bronze.

Some champions are changed just because are too good in bronze (yorick had like 65-70% w/r in bronze) But in general the most changes are as you said centered around pro play.