For what it does, guinsoo's rageblade might be too expensive.

Pierce The Veal·Mar 26, 2017·3 votes·2,052 views

I'm under the impression that paying 3600 to get an item that has barely noticeable effects is not so great. What I think should be done to make it more effective is actually give it the jax treatment. Make stacks fall off one by one instead of all at once, that way guinsoo's is actually usable in a fight. Heck, maybe just make it have the devourer passive outright without needing to stack it up. It's double onbit is nowhere near as strong as before after having a 3600 gold gating. By the time you have it, other champions have an IE/Rab cap/ 1.5 completed items.

23 Comments

darkdillMar 26, 20172 votes

It kinda has to be so expensive to keep abusers like Master Yi, Jax, Kayle, etc., from snowballing with it too early.

LordGeovanniMar 26, 20171 votes

by abuseers you mean they less than 10 champions the item was (re)made for

Ferrous OxideMar 26, 20171 votes

Well it went from being bad on EVERYONE to being OP as shit but only on Kayle and Kog'maw, to being balanced on at least 10 champions.

Pierce The VealMar 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It kinda has to be so expensive to keep abusers like Master Yi, Jax, Kayle, etc., from snowballing with it too early.

So in that sense, rab cap and infinity edge are ezpensive because they're "abused" by the champions they were made for?

darkdillMar 29, 20171 votes

In the abusers' cases, it makes them borderline broken. For instance, Xin Zhao with Rageblade is kinda ridiculous.

In the cases of Deathcap and Infinity Edge, those aren't great rush items because they need other items to make them cost-effective.

Pierce The VealMar 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

In the abusers' cases, it makes them borderline broken. For instance, Xin Zhao with Rageblade is kinda ridiculous.

In the cases of Deathcap and Infinity Edge, those aren't great rush items because they need other items to make them cost-effective.

But if you're not "one of those abusers" why would you ever buy guinsoo's? The only reason guinsoo's is bought is because it has a really strong interaction with certain champions, not because it's actually good.

Leaf of the lakeMar 26, 20172 votes

If you actually bothered to run the numbers on it, you would realize that it's not meant to be a rush item and that it acts as a multiplier for your existing on-hit effects. You don't rush it for the same reason you don't rush deathcap or IE.

Get bork first. Then get rageblade. Bam, you're doing more damage than a 2.5 item ADC with only 2 items.

The only champions that can rush it are ones with existing on-hit effects. Kog and Kayle are the main abusers of this, and even kayle usually gets nashors first.

Warlord ScrapMar 26, 20171 votes

Its 92% stat effective at 0 stacks ands over 150% gold effective at max stacks without double on hit effects so how are you proposing to lower its gold.

ThrëatMar 26, 20171 votes

Its not in a bad spot. It is item you typically just buy if you are already snowballing and can afford to add another offensive item rather than a defensive item. If you have that much money to throw away on an offensive item rather than a defensive item then the amount of gold it costs doesn't hurt. If they lowered the price then you'd be able to get it without any penalty.

Ferrous OxideMar 26, 20171 votes

Actually without stacking it all the stats alone are worth 3312.5 gold and at max stacks the stats are worth 5664.5 And thats only counting its OWN on hit damage, it becomes even more gold efficient when you have other items, or abilities that do on hit as well.

Remember that it gives a total of 73% attack speed, 53 AD, and 74 AP. Compare that to an IE which only gives 70 AD and 20% crit and the 50% extra crit damage and it greatly outshines it.

The stats on IE (with passive) are worth 3650, though its worth goes up as you get more crit, but not by as much as getting more on hit damage increases the value of Rageblade The stats on Rabadons (with passive) are worth 3523.5, though again, its worth goes up with more AP items, 20.03% for every 100 Ability Power. If you build Morrellos, Hourglass, Ludens and Void staff (which is almost as much ap as you can possibly get with a effective build) you get a total of 350 AP. this means that if you buy Rabadons with those items the cost effectiveness of Rabadons reaches 5989.95 gold which is only 300 gold better than the cost effectiveness of Rageblade BY ITSELF not to mention how much more effective rageblade gets when buying other items that give on hit damage.

As a singular item Guinsoos is way stronger on champions that are good with it, than IE or Rabadons is on people that can use those.

yes its annoying how expensive it is, and the items it build out of arent great unlike BFS and Needlessly large rod but once completed it is better than any other item in the game in terms of stats

Pierce The VealMar 29, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ferrous Oxide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ziUeLUwO,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-26T22:41:26.711+0000)

Actually without stacking it all the stats alone are worth 3312.5 gold and at max stacks the stats are worth 5664.5 And thats only counting its OWN on hit damage, it becomes even more gold efficient when you have other items, or abilities that do on hit as well.

Remember that it gives a total of 73% attack speed, 53 AD, and 74 AP. Compare that to an IE which only gives 70 AD and 20% crit and the 50% extra crit damage and it greatly outshines it.

The stats on IE (with passive) are worth 3650, though its worth goes up as you get more crit, but not by as much as getting more on hit damage increases the value of Rageblade The stats on Rabadons (with passive) are worth 3523.5, though again, its worth goes up with more AP items, 20.03% for every 100 Ability Power. If you build Morrellos, Hourglass, Ludens and Void staff (which is almost as much ap as you can possibly get with a effective build) you get a total of 350 AP. this means that if you buy Rabadons with those items the cost effectiveness of Rabadons reaches 5989.95 gold which is only 300 gold better than the cost effectiveness of Rageblade BY ITSELF not to mention how much more effective rageblade gets when buying other items that give on hit damage.

As a singular item Guinsoos is way stronger on champions that are good with it, than IE or Rabadons is on people that can use those.

yes its annoying how expensive it is, and the items it build out of arent great unlike BFS and Needlessly large rod but once completed it is better than any other item in the game in terms of stats

50% extra crit damage doesn't have a price tag on it.

IE at the very least is a much better item than guinsoo's. To get the full effect you need to stack guinsoo's up, more often than not on minions. It is not a great in combat item. 5664 gold worth is not much considering you have to play around it to make it work. There's a reason poacher's dirk isn't good, guinsoo's is bad for the same reason. It makes you predictable. Plus 3300 gold value means on completion it doesn't even have 100% gold efficiency.

Ferrous OxideMar 29, 20171 votes

50% extra crit damage increases the worth of IE by .56% for every 1% crit so at 100% crit IE is worth 56% more so 5070 Gold at 100% crit, still not worth as much as Guinsoos by itself.

Guinsoos only balancing factor is that you have to stack it up. Poachers dirk isnt good because it relies on you making the risk of going into the enemy jungle in order to use it properly. Guinsoos does not carry its own risks with it, champions that use Guinsoos are champions that are easily able to get it stacked. Considering it only takes 6 auto attacks and can be stacked by attacking minions first it isnt hard to use and play around. Just because you are predictable doesnt mean you arent strong, huh I wonder what kayle is going to do? Oh ya, shes going to AA me, I wonder what Jax is going to do? Oh ya hes going to AA me. I wonder what Xin is going to do? Oh ya, hes going to AA me. This doesnt change at all whether they have build Guinsoos or not because Guinsoos isnt built on people that dont rely on auto attacks anyway so the predictability doensnt matter.

its gold cost is fine and doesnt need to be changed.

Pierce The VealMar 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ferrous Oxide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ziUeLUwO,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-29T23:57:37.122+0000)

50% extra crit damage increases the worth of IE by .56% for every 1% crit so at 100% crit IE is worth 56% more so 5070 Gold at 100% crit, still not worth as much as Guinsoos by itself.

Guinsoos only balancing factor is that you have to stack it up. Poachers dirk isnt good because it relies on you making the risk of going into the enemy jungle in order to use it properly. Guinsoos does not carry its own risks with it, champions that use Guinsoos are champions that are easily able to get it stacked. Considering it only takes 6 auto attacks and can be stacked by attacking minions first it isnt hard to use and play around. Just because you are predictable doesnt mean you arent strong, huh I wonder what kayle is going to do? Oh ya, shes going to AA me, I wonder what Jax is going to do? Oh ya hes going to AA me. I wonder what Xin is going to do? Oh ya, hes going to AA me. This doesnt change at all whether they have build Guinsoos or not because Guinsoos isnt built on people that dont rely on auto attacks anyway so the predictability doensnt matter.

its gold cost is fine and doesnt need to be changed.

On the contrary,

By the time you get 6 autos off and get the full effect, either you are dead or your tatget is dead, assuming you don't use minions to stack it.

Anyone with half a brain would wait it out when they see you stacking it on minions, by the time you get guinsoo's nobody will be forced to fight you 1v1.

IE on the other hand is always powerful. It doesn't need to be primed by minions.

Ferrous OxideApr 1, 20171 votes

If no one is going to get close to you when you have 6 stacks than it is still an extremely strong zoning tool, on top of that you are completely ignoring its power in a team fight where you WILL get it fully stacked and people can not just, not be near you. Kayle, Jax, Xin and Yi can all easily get it stacked in the course of a 1vs1

Jax Kayle Xin and Yi are all easily able to get 6 autos off before dying unless you are super far behind or are building wrong.

Pierce The VealApr 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ferrous Oxide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ziUeLUwO,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-01T01:52:27.879+0000)

If no one is going to get close to you when you have 6 stacks than it is still an extremely strong zoning tool, on top of that you are completely ignoring its power in a team fight where you WILL get it fully stacked and people can not just, not be near you. Kayle, Jax, Xin and Yi can all easily get it stacked in the course of a 1vs1

Jax Kayle Xin and Yi are all easily able to get 6 autos off before dying unless you are super far behind or are building wrong.

No, the point is its strong point can be avoided entirely, but its strong point isn't so strong that you necessarily need to avoid it.

As for jax, kayle, xin, and yi, none actually need to build it, as within 6 autos more often than not your enemy would be dead anyway.

The only two champions that use it in their core build are kayle and kog'maw.

Ferrous OxideApr 4, 20171 votes

Pierce The VealApr 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ferrous Oxide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ziUeLUwO,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-04T01:27:22.519+0000)

k

Impressive argument, I applaud you.

Ferrous OxideApr 5, 20171 votes

What is there to argue? You either just say the same thing over and over or you make a point and then when that point gets refuted you flip to the complete other side ("Anyone with half a brain would wait it out when they see you stacking it on minions" to " but its strong point isn't so strong that you necessarily need to avoid it." What is it? Are they going to wait out the stacking and be refused minions or are they going to fight a fully stacked guinsoos?

You weren't making any valid points and refuse to understand why the item is fine despite the fact that I repeatedly proved you wrong first with numbers, than with uses in game. Theres nothing left for me to say to you other than 'K' and let you believe what you want.

Pierce The VealApr 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ferrous Oxide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ziUeLUwO,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-05T15:45:04.877+0000)

What is there to argue? You either just say the same thing over and over or you make a point and then when that point gets refuted you flip to the complete other side ("Anyone with half a brain would wait it out when they see you stacking it on minions" to " but its strong point isn't so strong that you necessarily need to avoid it." What is it? Are they going to wait out the stacking and be refused minions or are they going to fight a fully stacked guinsoos?

You weren't making any valid points and refuse to understand why the item is fine despite the fact that I repeatedly proved you wrong first with numbers, than with uses in game. Theres nothing left for me to say to you other than 'K' and let you believe what you want.

And I provided you evidence that not even the champions you thought would be building them are building them. Shocker. You did the math, and yet it didn't work out? Well if we look at the gold efficiency, none of these champions use either the AP or the AD as well as they do the other stat. What's the gold efficiency of Rab Cap on Darius? The gold efficiency of Infinity edge on Xerath? It doesn't matter. It's useless. So a third of the stats on guinsoo's are barely useful on the champions involved. The only two champions that use both well are Kayle and Kog'maw, thus the only two champions that use them. But their other builds have similar winrates, so it's not actually necessarily the best item to build on them either.

The item isn't fully gold efficient with 0 stacks, and on champions with not many AP scalings or not great AD scalings the item is even more lackluster. So when it's fully stacked it barely becomes a fully functional item (except on Kayle and Kog'maw, who use it to great effect).

Additionally, you're not going to be missing out on minions because you shouldn't still be in lane by the time they got guinsoo's.

All of what I said is true, yet rather than have the respect to give me an answer, you go along with a "K."

Ferrous OxideApr 5, 20171 votes

These champs dont use the stats? Jax Q,W and Ult has AP all scale with both AP and AD, and he makes great use of attack speed, not to mention the fully stacked effect makes his ult hit every other auto instead of every 3, Xin has AP ratio on his E for damage and it increases the amount he heals by on his W and uses AD on his Q not to mention again fully stacked it makes him heal on every other auto attack instead of every 3 from his W meaning he gets even more effect out of the AP scaling. Master Yi is the ONLY one that I mentioned that doesnt use all 3 stats that the item gives perfectly as his only AP scaling is on his meditate which requires him to obviously not be attacking which means losing the stacks.

Guinsoos is a Hybrid item and like all Hybrid Items it is usable on a very limited number of champions, but on those champions that can use it it is extremely effective. Also ONCE AGAIN, Guinsoos is not an item that gets built first, just like IE and just like deathcap you do not build it first because just like IE and just like Deathcap it is better after getting other items that synergies with it.

You are right though, you dont NEED Rageblade on these champions to make them good unlike champions that use crit who NEED IE to be good. Unlike champions that NEED IE there is some variance to the build of champions that are able to utilize Rageblade and thats a good thing, an item should not be a MUST build for any champion that can use it thats the kind of thing that created the sated devourer meta aka the same exact effect that rageblade has now but cheaper which made it op as shit.

EDIT: and the reason I gave you a 'k' is because you had already said "By the time you get 6 autos off and get the full effect, either you are dead or your tatget is dead, assuming you don't use minions to stack it." To which I replied "Jax Kayle Xin and Yi are all easily able to get 6 autos off before dying unless you are super far behind or are building wrong." and then all you did was repeat exactly what you said before adding nothing new to the arguement you just began to speak in circles "As for jax, kayle, xin, and yi, none actually need to build it, as within 6 autos more often than not your enemy would be dead anyway." After I had already fucking told you that they can easily get 6 autos off. You act like everyone in the game is a squishy champ, tanks exist, other bruisers exist, not everyone is an adc or apc that dies in 3 hits. If im fighting a fiora or a irelia they are NOT going to die in less than 6 hits and the ramping up of a Rageblade can quickly turn a fight around, it can make them think they can win, only to find out that the fight lasted too long and now my stacks make it so I win.

Pierce The VealApr 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ferrous Oxide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ziUeLUwO,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-05T19:27:33.019+0000)

These champs dont use the stats? Jax Q,W and Ult has AP all scale with both AP and AD, and he makes great use of attack speed, not to mention the fully stacked effect makes his ult hit every other auto instead of every 3, Xin has AP ratio on his E for damage and it increases the amount he heals by on his W and uses AD on his Q not to mention again fully stacked it makes him heal on every other auto attack instead of every 3 from his W meaning he gets even more effect out of the AP scaling. Master Yi is the ONLY one that I mentioned that doesnt use all 3 stats that the item gives perfectly as his only AP scaling is on his meditate which requires him to obviously not be attacking which means losing the stacks.

Guinsoos is a Hybrid item and like all Hybrid Items it is usable on a very limited number of champions, but on those champions that can use it it is extremely effective. Also ONCE AGAIN, Guinsoos is not an item that gets built first, just like IE and just like deathcap you do not build it first because just like IE and just like Deathcap it is better after getting other items that synergies with it.

You are right though, you dont NEED Rageblade on these champions to make them good unlike champions that use crit who NEED IE to be good. Unlike champions that NEED IE there is some variance to the build of champions that are able to utilize Rageblade and thats a good thing, an item should not be a MUST build for any champion that can use it thats the kind of thing that created the sated devourer meta aka the same exact effect that rageblade has now but cheaper which made it op as shit.

EDIT: and the reason I gave you a 'k' is because you had already said "By the time you get 6 autos off and get the full effect, either you are dead or your tatget is dead, assuming you don't use minions to stack it." To which I replied "Jax Kayle Xin and Yi are all easily able to get 6 autos off before dying unless you are super far behind or are building wrong." and then all you did was repeat exactly what you said before adding nothing new to the arguement you just began to speak in circles "As for jax, kayle, xin, and yi, none actually need to build it, as within 6 autos more often than not your enemy would be dead anyway." After I had already fucking told you that they can easily get 6 autos off. You act like everyone in the game is a squishy champ, tanks exist, other bruisers exist, not everyone is an adc or apc that dies in 3 hits. If im fighting a fiora or a irelia they are NOT going to die in less than 6 hits and the ramping up of a Rageblade can quickly turn a fight around, it can make them think they can win, only to find out that the fight lasted too long and now my stacks make it so I win.

Jax gains more damage from items that allow him to take advantage of his base damages. As such, rageblade is almost never built on him, as it compounds his weakness.

Xin zhao gains healing from AP, true, but he gains damage AND healing from AD, as such AP is wasted, hence why Rageblade is never bought on him.

Titanium70Apr 5, 20171 votes

Well, essentially Rageblade is the On-Hit Deathcap/IE. As such it should be an expensive Lategame Item wich still is super slot and goldefficient when other onhits already exists.

So far the theory...

In reality On-Hit is an abusive mess of stats thrown into some Kit and at some Items. So, no. Rageblade is a good designed Item. But everything it is supposed to scale with is garbage!

On-Hit as a playstyle needs attention - A Rework similar to other class updates. It needs to be clear and understandable which it is not in the slightest! What is ONHIT? How does it work? How does it interact with Crit?

Like... 70% of players have little to idea about this topic!

Pierce The VealApr 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well, essentially Rageblade is the On-Hit Deathcap/IE. As such it should be an expensive Lategame Item wich still is super slot and goldefficient when other onhits already exists.

So far the theory...

In reality On-Hit is an abusive mess of stats thrown into some Kit and at some Items. So, no. Rageblade is a good designed Item. But everything it is supposed to scale with is garbage!

On-Hit as a playstyle needs attention - A Rework similar to other class updates. It needs to be clear and understandable which it is not in the slightest! What is ONHIT? How does it work? How does it interact with Crit?

Like... 70% of players have little to idea about this topic!

Fair enough.

The only hybrid items now are gunblade, rageblade, and nashors.

As such there really isn't much to build, and not many champions who want those stats to build it on. Kayle can just as easily go gunblade+AD without filling her niche.