In regards to off meta play, why does everyone imply communication works at all?

Pierce The Veal·Jun 18, 2019·27 votes·11,528 views

In recent news, Nubrac played Teemo support mid without telling his team beforehand. Many think he deserved his ban because of it. Now, I’m not certain whether or not Nubrac deserved his ban, but let me ask you this: do all of you seriously think he would get to play his off meta gameplay if he tried to “communicate it to his team?”

It’s insane that many of you folks are insinuating that people will (A) not dodge (B) not troll him (C) cooperate with and accommodate his playstyle.

It’s even crazier that the concept seems to be “off meta is bannable if your team isn’t okay with it.” So basically, if I were to play off meta, I would just have to encounter the right number of meta slaves before I get banned?

All in all, we have a situation where there is less flexibility to play an off meta role than ever before. If you want to play something that isn’t the meta, you might as well just outright quit this game; that is my takeaway from the recent events as well as from past events. You’re going to get attacked by this wonderful community. Riot’s going to ban you. If you’re lucky you get unbanned, but you will nonetheless permanently be met with distaste and ire.

So, somebody tell me how I am wrong? How is it that one can play off meta without meeting this fate? Or is it that when you folks and Riot say “off meta,” you mean building statikk shiv before infinity edge, or rab cap before zhonya’s?

52 Comments

Dorans PantsJun 18, 201914 votes

The thing that confuses me the most is that for most players:

champion picks are variable
Item builds are variable
are runes variable?
are summoners variable???
but your lane, now that is set in stone.

The funny thing is, there were always similar people who felt my runes, items, champs were reasons to report me because it ruined THEIR game. hell, some adcs wanted to report me for not buying the first item THEY wanted me to have, so much for not forcing your will onto other players. The lines people draw here are mostly arbitrary and cases like singed smite support and now teemo bot/mid/top support are just the most extreme examples of that.

Maybe if we weren´t so used to every game playing out the same, we wouldn´t lose our shit every time something unconventional happened.

In the end, riot has either to set arbitrary guidelines and declare what goes and what not in a concrete way, or they have to live with the extreme cases. But what doesn´t work is acting like everything goes while simultaneously punish players by vaguely or straight up non-defined or subjective criteria.

CrazyMonkeyCZJun 18, 20197 votes

Idk why you ppl are so stupid...

Can't you see the difference between "normal" offmeta and his dumb strat?

"Normal" offmeta gives majority of team standart laning phase, illusion of not being affected, which is basically 10 or more mins of not know that there is (R word) in my game, who thinks that XY with XY build in XY role is good, but whatever.

His playstyle pushes it onto others, which without their consent is straight up griefing. That's difference.

All in all, we have a situation where there is less flexibility to play an off meta role than ever before. If you want to play something that isn’t the meta, you might as well just outright quit this game; that is my takeaway from the recent events as well as from past events. You’re going to get attacked by this wonderful community. Riot’s going to ban you. If you’re lucky you get unbanned, but you will nonetheless permanently be met with distaste and ire.

Use your one braincell to go through internet, give me one exemple of some one who was banned for playing off meta things that wasn't shifting whole game around them? You can't, no one was punished for offmeta. That's the point. That's why he needs to communicate, he is shifting game too much around himself.

Play your offmeta thingy, but don't push me onto it.

Pierce The VealJun 18, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Play your offmeta thingy, but don't push me onto it.

So how the hell are off meta players going to get to play if there’s at least one if not multiple of you ~~meta slaves~~ brilliant minds every game?

If that’s what they are good at, and it helps you win, what’s the problem?

The problem is this. It makes you feel uncomfortable. You’re so used to playing the same gameplay and game style every game for who knows how many hundreds of games that you’re unwilling to tolerate anything that even smells a little off.

How is anyone going to play offmeta if there are meta slaves like you in every game?

CrazyMonkeyCZJun 18, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=brEJp6Fn,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-18T17:03:04.467+0000)

So how the hell are off meta players going to get to play if there’s at least one if not multiple of you ~~meta slaves~~ brilliant minds every game?

If that’s what they are good at, and it helps you win, what’s the problem?

The problem is this. It makes you feel uncomfortable. You’re so used to playing the same gameplay and game style every game for who knows how many hundreds of games that you’re unwilling to tolerate anything that even smells a little off.

How is anyone going to play offmeta if there are meta slaves like you in every game?

Who said I'm meta slave? I'm Rumble mid main.

What I want is my laning phase without knowing that there is other briliant mind thinking that I want to be part of his strat. That's what I meant, I want the illusion that you have no effect on me, at least in lane, hard to do with offmeta supp/adc, but still it stays in lane.

I don't want players that shifts whole gameplay around them, to totally different things, this needs consent, it's too big difference from standart strategy.

If you are playing, idk what offmeta thing you like, you are not affecting me that much, at least not my playstyle in lane, that's what I want, only me, enemy and enemy jngler.

Zeppelins circusJun 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Who said I'm meta slave? I'm Rumble mid main.

What I want is my laning phase without knowing that there is other briliant mind thinking that I want to be part of his strat. That's what I meant, I want the illusion that you have no effect on me, at least in lane, hard to do with offmeta supp/adc, but still it stays in lane.

I don't want players that shifts whole gameplay around them, to totally different things, this needs consent, it's too big difference from standart strategy.

If you are playing, idk what offmeta thing you like, you are not affecting me that much, at least not my playstyle in lane, that's what I want, only me, enemy and enemy jngler.

He is in silver for 5 whole seasons and still in there after iron tier was made and the population of gold 4 has increased. In his world of low elo, it is a common thing for people to troll and it is considered normal. You are talking sense here.

Trist mid opopJun 18, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Idk why you ppl are so stupid...

Can't you see the difference between "normal" offmeta and his dumb strat?

"Normal" offmeta gives majority of team standart laning phase, illusion of not being affected, which is basically 10 or more mins of not know that there is (R word) in my game, who thinks that XY with XY build in XY role is good, but whatever.

His playstyle pushes it onto others, which without their consent is straight up griefing. That's difference.

Use your one braincell to go through internet, give me one exemple of some one who was banned for playing off meta things that wasn't shifting whole game around them? You can't, no one was punished for offmeta. That's the point. That's why he needs to communicate, he is shifting game too much around himself.

Play your offmeta thingy, but don't push me onto it.

Sona taric went from teemo supp lvl offmeta to lcs...

CevradJun 18, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Idk why you ppl are so stupid...

Can't you see the difference between "normal" offmeta and his dumb strat?

"Normal" offmeta gives majority of team standart laning phase, illusion of not being affected, which is basically 10 or more mins of not know that there is (R word) in my game, who thinks that XY with XY build in XY role is good, but whatever.

His playstyle pushes it onto others, which without their consent is straight up griefing. That's difference.

Use your one braincell to go through internet, give me one exemple of some one who was banned for playing off meta things that wasn't shifting whole game around them? You can't, no one was punished for offmeta. That's the point. That's why he needs to communicate, he is shifting game too much around himself.

Play your offmeta thingy, but don't push me onto it.

51% win rate masters, cry more bronzie.

GayFluffyUnicornJun 19, 20192 votes

But not on his teemo troll pick because he only does it to boost his stream.

mack9112Jun 18, 20197 votes

He consistently ruined the game experience.

That is a bannable offence

Tahminatrix Jun 18, 20194 votes

Playing against a 10/0 riven with yuumi on her ruins my game experience.

mack9112Jun 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=brEJp6Fn,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-06-18T21:53:50.422+0000)

Playing against a 10/0 riven with yuumi on her ruins my game experience.

.... rlly....

Pierce The VealJun 19, 20191 votes

So basically if people consistently don’t like you, the champion you play, or the way you play, you should be banned?

mack9112Jun 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=brEJp6Fn,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2019-06-19T16:02:51.522+0000)

So basically if people consistently don’t like you, the champion you play, or the way you play, you should be banned?

The data shows he would do it in cases of playing with high profile streamer. Please answer me why he would do that.

There was no communication with his team and his team actively asked him to stop.

He did it for attention if he just did it all the time Willy nilly I would be on his side but when the data shows he would do it when matched with steamers shows it was a stunt not an actually actual strategy used to win games.

Pierce The VealJun 22, 20191 votes

The point isn’t Nubrac, but what his ban entails. What of the common players? I don’t think his ban was necessarily undeserved, but at the same time I wonder what would happen to another random player who is playing a wonky strategy? Everyone will hate them for it and they will get banned.

mack9112Jun 22, 20191 votes

This is a team oriented game so if you want to play unorthodox styles you need to be able to effectively communicate with your team and ensure they are on board.

A play style that actively makes someone on your team miserable is not an acceptable strategy in any way shape or form.

Rıots Bad ClientJun 18, 20196 votes

There was a time, when Azir was thought to be pretty bad.

I really liked him. and So I picked him Bot lane.

We has a Darius top, Talon mid and Trundle Jung.

So I busted out Azir . To my support Thresh dismay, he wanted a real adc. he thought I was trolling and He wanted something that was Meta.

well, the moment I missed a melee on the first wave. He just lost his mind, and decided to roam. calling me trash and wont play with a 'troll'. And the end of the game he said he would report me. And about a week later after I tried Azir bot. He, Ziggs and swain were being played bot.

So my thought was maybe, Teemo mid roam support might actually become meta. Maybe they even will even get bard. maybe a champ that can go bot, and or top, and help secure objectives. I dont want to see a option to pick something different be stomped before it even flourishes.

Or even more wild. If Riot supports this idea. and maybe helps push the idea.

crippler38Jun 18, 20195 votes

I mean, as a Silver player who mostly does normals draft, I'd welcome the strategy if I were told about it in champ select so I could pick someone who can survive that scenario.

Like say, Swain or something, a mage most likely.

Immortal FiendJun 18, 20194 votes

Jesus people are dumb. He was NOT playing OFFMETA. He was playing off role. He was the support yet he did no supporting. He legit just went mid and soaked xp forcing the mid laner to be behind and the bot laner to 1v2 and get zoned. That is not fun for either players. If I was in that game I would have afk'd as the adc.

Pierce The VealJun 18, 20195 votes

As someone who was around since before the conceptions of the current roles, I don’t see why it’s so necessary to stick to the current preset roles. For the longest time the way to go was 2 top, 1 mid, 2 bot, and the only reason we found out having a jungler is better was because people tried it out.

{quoted}

I've successfully pulled off his playstyle a couple times before with a willing team. The whole point is that you can't be reported for asking your team if they'd be willing to try something besides the standard positioning format that we've played with since the end of Season 1. If they agree to try it then there's nothing they can report you for (so long as it's clear that you are trying to win) and if they don't agree to try it then simply be safe and play your role more traditionally^

^You can play an uncommon champion in a position (Zyra Jungle, Master Yi Mid, Zac Support, Sona Top, etc.) even if your team decides that it doesn't want to try some nonstandard positioning ideas you bring up -- it's significantly harder to be punished for playing the role you were assigned in a traditional manner, even if you're playing that role with a nontraditional champion for said role.

I've played this game for ages now and I do my fair share of weird picks (Sona Jungle, Katarina Jungle, Nocturne Mid, Aurelion Sol Top, Blitzcrank Top, Thresh ADC, Kindred Support, etc.) and I have never been punished for this since I follow the common courtesy I detailed above. I genuinely believe that others would not be punished as well if they did the same since it'd be clear they are respecting their teammates and are trying to win. Your behavior in chat can save you even if you happen to have a bad game afterward (it happens to everyone sometimes).

Well, what happens when you go past a certain number of games with that playstyle, still racking up reports from players who were outwardly willing to play along? In a game where you need hundreds of games played to rank up, it’s crazy that you’d need to negotiate and beg every game just so you’re able to do what you’re good at. Not to mention this still likely backfiring if people still report you.

The same issue is of course there with off meta picks, but it does seem that people have lightened up a little on that end. In theory it could also get you banned if people hated it enough, but people usually tunnel-vision long enough to not notice the mildly off meta picks you mentioned.

It is, however, worth noting that quite a few of your picks have been played before, even in the pro scene, and are not really considered off meta.

GayFluffyUnicornJun 19, 20192 votes

HE IS NOT GOOD AT IT HE HAS 48% WINRATE. He his worse than a coinflip cuz he loses more games than he wins with his "incredible" strat. Can't even call it a strat.

When the entire of high elo hates you because you troll every game MAYBE you are actually trolling and not off meta.

Pierce The VealJun 19, 20191 votes

So you’re implying that someone with a negative winrate is able to stay in masters? The 48% winrate statistic is clearly some bs hashinshin pulled out of his ass once again.

Nonetheless, it was a general statement that I made.

Pika FoxJun 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Immortal Fiend,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=brEJp6Fn,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-18T12:56:09.744+0000)

Jesus people are dumb. He was NOT playing OFFMETA. He was playing off role. He was the support yet he did no supporting. He legit just went mid and soaked xp forcing the mid laner to be behind and the bot laner to 1v2 and get zoned. That is not fun for either players. If I was in that game I would have afk'd as the adc.

Dont queue for support, you clearly have no idea what the supports role is or does.

GlaricionJun 18, 20194 votes

It is true that if you're deciding to go off-meta, you can still count your lucky stars that at least 50% of your team isn't going to be happy with you. Probably won't reduce the flaming and raging all that much.

Communication with your allies is key because it at least gives them the opportunity to adjust their builds and picks so that they aren't screwed over by your strategy.

Want to have the support lane w/ someone else? Bottom needs to rethink their build and pick. Solo laners may need to switch to a gold-reliant pick over a more common exp-reliant pick.

Double jungle? Need laners who can get lane priority.

Switching from one type of damage to another? etc...

Pierce The VealJun 19, 20192 votes

Which might have been tolerable in and of itself, but Riot has shown that they’re willing to enforce the whims of meta slaves. Requiring your team to be content/willing for off meta gameplay is equivalent to passive aggressively forbidding off meta gameplay.

Busty DemonJun 19, 20194 votes

He is staying mid soaking up exp. He is negatively impacting his teammates. It's not an off meta strategy if it negatively affects his teammates. It's not okay to leave ur bot side without peel just because " you are bored of your lane." stop defending the troll just because he acts "cute and all smiles."

The23rdGamerJun 18, 20193 votes

...but let me ask you this: do all of you seriously think he would get to play his off meta gameplay if he tried to “communicate it to his team?”

It’s insane that many of you folks are insinuating that people will (A) not dodge (B) not troll him (C) cooperate with and accommodate his playstyle.

I've successfully pulled off his playstyle a couple times before with a willing team. The whole point is that you can't be reported for asking your team if they'd be willing to try something besides the standard positioning format that we've played with since the end of Season 1. If they agree to try it then there's nothing they can report you for (so long as it's clear that you are trying to win) and if they don't agree to try it then simply be safe and play your role more traditionally^

^You can play an uncommon champion in a position (Zyra Jungle, Master Yi Mid, Zac Support, Sona Top, etc.) even if your team decides that it doesn't want to try some nonstandard positioning ideas you bring up -- it's significantly harder to be punished for playing the role you were assigned in a traditional manner, even if you're playing that role with a nontraditional champion for said role.

I've played this game for ages now and I do my fair share of weird picks (Sona Jungle, Katarina Jungle, Nocturne Mid, Aurelion Sol Top, Blitzcrank Top, Thresh ADC, Kindred Support, etc.) and I have never been punished for this since I follow the common courtesy I detailed above. I genuinely believe that others would not be punished as well if they did the same since it'd be clear they are respecting their teammates and are trying to win. Your behavior in chat can save you even if you happen to have a bad game afterward (it happens to everyone sometimes).

novac3721Jun 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I've successfully pulled off his playstyle a couple times before with a willing team. The whole point is that you can't be reported for asking your team if they'd be willing to try something besides the standard positioning format that we've played with since the end of Season 1. If they agree to try it then there's nothing they can report you for (so long as it's clear that you are trying to win) and if they don't agree to try it then simply be safe and play your role more traditionally^

^You can play an uncommon champion in a position (Zyra Jungle, Master Yi Mid, Zac Support, Sona Top, etc.) even if your team decides that it doesn't want to try some nonstandard positioning ideas you bring up -- it's significantly harder to be punished for playing the role you were assigned in a traditional manner, even if you're playing that role with a nontraditional champion for said role.

I've played this game for ages now and I do my fair share of weird picks (Sona Jungle, Katarina Jungle, Nocturne Mid, Aurelion Sol Top, Blitzcrank Top, Thresh ADC, Kindred Support, etc.) and I have never been punished for this since I follow the common courtesy I detailed above. I genuinely believe that others would not be punished as well if they did the same since it'd be clear they are respecting their teammates and are trying to win. Your behavior in chat can save you even if you happen to have a bad game afterward (it happens to everyone sometimes).

Now I can't speak for your situation, but I do know that Nightblue3 was tilted the moment he saw the teemo mid. Should Nubrac have communicated to his team? Yeah, I think so. But in the same way that he should have shown them the courtesy, they should have shown him some as well, after all he has been winning games with the strat. Imagine someone picking a zed support, or jungle going duo top instead; Those players might not be making the best decision, but assuming they are trying to win, then they don't deserve a ban whether or not they communicate their intention.

If Riot were to lock the account and have them contact Riot support, and explain to them how their lack of communication affects other players and then allow them to return to the game immediately, that would be a reasonable course of action.

I just don't think what was done warranted a ban, and if it did then Riot needs to make what is allowed and what is not crystal clear. Otherwise it its an unjust ban.

MorganFreemanBotJun 18, 20193 votes

Troll picking =/= off meta. Reasonably speaking, there are two ways of playing 'off meta':

The first is positioning related. For example: Playing Garen as a jungler is off-meta. It's off meta because his jungle pick rate is non existent, he does not have any (commonly known) strengths for jungling, and he's not designed with jungling in mind / even as an aside. As such, picking Garen in the jungle role is strange, and out of meta. Other examples of this could be: Bard mid, Zed support. It is worth noting that 'off-meta' positioning picks generally do not fulfill all of the 'criteria' for a role (Garen jungle ganks would be pretty weak), but are often times passable / decent at another aspect (Garen jungle would have a decent clear speed and semi-decent jungle sustain).

The second is build related: For example, full AP Shyvana is off-meta. It's off meta because Shyvana is demonstrably designed to be a tanky AD bruiser. This is something Riot has said. However she still has AP ratios, so she can benefit from AP items, and as such playing her as full AP is not 'useless', although it might be suboptimal. Other examples of this include bruiser / AD Akali, full AP Cho, bruiser Nid, and others.

It is worth noting that sometimes 'off-meta' turns out to be insanely strong, in which case it actually becomes meta where as the 'norm' then becomes off meta. Good examples of this include Jungle Nidalee, AP Nidalee, bruiser Akali (pre and post rework), ADC Kennen, Full-AP-Mid Kog'maw, Full-AP-mid Janna, ect. It's also not uncommon for these builds to get absolutely dumpstered with nerfs.

Now, let's talk about troll picks.

Troll picks are basically the same two 'off meta' playstyles, but with malicious intent:

Positioning related: Jungle Yuumi would be a troll pick. This is because a large portion of Yuumi's kit cannot be used in the jungle roll; not that it can't be used well / doesn't play into it, but it straight up cannot be used. Also, unlike other 'uncommon' jungler picks (Karthus, Garen, Renekton), she has absolutely no tools to give her a strong jungle clear. This flags her as a pick which is weak in every single area that she must fulfill for the desired role.

Build related: Annie has the ability to auto attack from range (something not unique to her). Beyond that she has absolutely no synergy with AD or attack speed items; every single one of her scalings is AP, and she gains no reward (bonus AP damage, tagging targets with debuffs, 3-hit-procs, ect) from building such items. As such, building ADC Annie would be a troll pick. I do not mean that playing Annie as the 'ADC' role in botlane, and building AP would be a troll pick. That's off-meta. But building her as full AD & AS would be a troll pick, because she has absolutely no synergy with AD (Renekton has more synergy with AP than Annie does with AD).

Beyond that, there are a few outliers. Something like a support-top at the cost of solo bot would depend on what's being played. A Leona 'supporting' a Darius, and playing as a regular support, is merely off-meta. A Zed 'supporting' that same Darius, & attempting to take every single CS out from under him, is troll picking.

Pierce The VealJun 19, 20191 votes

Which is all bs because back in the day having a jungler was nonexistent, and would have been treated as your so called “troll pick.”

Now, there are definitely legitimate troll picks. Picks that are just outright not useable or playable. However we’ve literally been sitting on an enforced meta for years. Anything that has posed a legitimate threat to the way this meta works has been gutted or rebalanced.

I remember that proxy singed was considered troll back in the day, despite being a strong and legitimate tactic.

At the end of the day, if you pick something that isn’t standard, and enough of your teammates dislike it often enough, you’re getting the ban hammer win or lose.

Z3SleeperJun 19, 20193 votes

I was actually his top laner one game about two days before his ban. I absolutely loved that game. He made life hell for the enemy top Vayne and it filled me with pure joy seeing a cancer top laner being out-cancered.

Pierce The VealJun 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I was actually his top laner one game a two days before his ban. I absolutely loved that game. He made life hell for the enemy top Vayne and it filled me with pure joy seeing a cancer top laner being out-cancered.

Now that’s more like it! It’s great seeing risky something work out for the better.

Z3SleeperJun 19, 20191 votes

Sadly can't find the VOD of mine or his stream for that game oof.

The only problem is that he doesn't tell anyone so his team is kinda forced to adapt to whatever he's doing.

It worked out great for us and I love the strat though, just tell us wtf ur doing bro lol.

Pierce The VealJun 22, 20191 votes

The issue, especially in high elo, with telling people what you’re going to do is no one will cooperate.

they will dodge
they will fight you to make you play something else, then dodge if that doesn’t work
they will recognize you or dislike what you’re doing and intentionally troll you. Communication doesn’t work. It’s just like those people who insist you play a certain champion then feed/int when you don’t. It’s a lot of work to explain a strategy every game for potentially hundreds of games— work that will not be reciprocated.

KídáJun 18, 20192 votes

I feel that if your off meta playstyle directly impacts my lane in a way that can be considered negative then it should be a reportable offense.

Tahminatrix Jun 18, 20192 votes

Problem is, its an unwritten rule, this happened with smite singed support where riot did end up unbanning the singed player and letting him off with a warning, saying that he needs to "communicate with his team rather than at his team"

The Teemo player didn't communicate at all but....where does it formally say you have to communicate what you are doing with your team....make it into a more formal rule please..

Ofc riot wont make it into a formal rule because its too vague and can cause a whole new problem, but they are still gonna use it as their trump card whenever someone tries something offmeta.

Pierce The VealJun 19, 20191 votes

So why even play this game if it isn’t allowed to try new things or do risky game strategies? If you remove that flexibility, might as well play rock paper scissors; that would have a similar effect and result.

Tahminatrix Jun 19, 20192 votes

yep.

5050BSJun 18, 20192 votes

What is off Meta and who picks what is and isnt off meta?

I Play Reksai Mid and get (??? Reksai Mid ??? Is that a Thing?) in chat all the time. I then get first blood and end games with a good kda (not always a win tho but its Ranked so)

Pierce The VealJun 19, 20191 votes

This is the issue. As long as people report you for playing it, you can get banned, whether you win or lose.

ThefrostyvikingJun 19, 20192 votes

Like holy moly OP how dense are you?

Playing off meta is not a sin and you wont get banned for it, otherwise AP Shyvana and tank assassins or mage botlaners would never have happened, ever.

The problem is that Nubrac´s Teemo midlane support strategy breaks the mold of expected gameplay and greatly affects his teammates, if they arent prepared for it then it will have a massively negative impact on them, essentially griefing them.

Like the nightblue game where his botlane inhib tower was going down 11 minutes into the game because a single Sivir was defending with 40 CS vs a Sona+taric with 110 CS + a jungler, even the Irelia he "helped get fed" fell behind because she couldnt deal with the overfed enemy botlane.

And that´s exactly the problem, he never told them about it so each of his botlaners had no choice but to sit there and die being unable to farm or really be useful while his midlaner was down on EXP and jungle unable to gank either lane, this griefing them as well.

Even if they protested he´d ignore them.

Those are why he got banned, it´s also why the Singed and Nunu supports got themselves banned for a few weeks.

Now for a more general case, if you similarly want to play something that really breaks the "standard mold" and also affects how your teammates need to play then you have to tell them about it, and accept that maybe they wont like it so its better to not do it.

Because its a teamgame, its not just you looking to have fun, its 4 other guys on your team as well and they might just want a normal game.

Heck its fine if you try to play and lose on something unusual with say .......Swain support was a thing i heard about, as long as you are around your ADC and help them while providing wards for your team you have accomplished your role as a support and is free to be creative in the remaining space.

It´s still something normal and your teammates wont have to adapt or really think about it much, you wont get banned for it, unlike if you forcefully push some strategy that greatly impacts your teammates against their will.

....So essentially you have a lot of freedom in picks and builds but you are expected to play according to your role.

Pierce The VealJun 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Now for a more general case, if you similarly want to play something that really breaks the "standard mold" and also affects how your teammates need to play then you have to tell them about it, and accept that maybe they wont like it so its better to not do it.

Because its a teamgame, its not just you looking to have fun, its 4 other guys on your team as well and they might just want a normal game.

Heck its fine if you try to play and lose on something unusual with say .......Swain support was a thing i heard about, as long as you are around your ADC and help them while providing wards for your team you have accomplished your role as a support and is free to be creative in the remaining space.

It´s still something normal and your teammates wont have to adapt or really think about it much, you wont get banned for it, unlike if you forcefully push some strategy that greatly impacts your teammates against their will.

....So essentially you have a lot of freedom in picks and builds but you are expected to play according to your role.

So basically exactly what I said? If your off meta play so much as makes people feel slightly uncomfortable, don’t play it, and perhaps, don’t even play League if you want to play off meta?

What you’re saying is lining up 100% with what I posted. Every champion you pick, every play you make, and every item you buy greatly impacts your teammates and your game.

So let me insert a TL;DR for you: “you’re free to play whatever you want as long as you play exactly what everyone else wants you to play.”

ThefrostyvikingJun 19, 20191 votes

Please read in depth before making thoughtless comments, or rather read the first paragraphs carefully.

I´ll quote it here.

Playing off meta is not a sin and you wont get banned for it, otherwise AP Shyvana and tank assassins or mage botlaners would never have happened, ever.

The problem is that Nubrac´s Teemo midlane support strategy breaks the mold of expected gameplay and greatly affects his teammates, if they arent prepared for it then it will have a massively negative impact on them, essentially griefing them.

These here are the important parts, the ones you quoted was just explaining and trying to illustrate.

" So basically exactly what I said? If your off meta play so much as makes people feel slightly uncomfortable, don’t play it, and perhaps, don’t even play League if you want to play off meta?"

If this little text of yours was correct then Ap shyv or tank assassins or mage botlaners would have gotten banned, all of them, but those never happened.

AP shyv is even the main build for her now, it became the new meta.

So again, you are free to pick and build whatever you like as long as you play seriously to accomplish the work of your role and dont cause any great for your team. ' 'Otherwise Swain support wouldnt a be thing his mains are entertaining themselves with right now in high diamond even.

Losing and trying things out are fine by the rules, even if it ends up not working out that´s also fine.

But doing something unusual that might work, perhaps even well, but has the base cost of causing at least one of your teammates to have a miserable experience? Maybe even several of your teammates?

That is really not K.

Pierce The VealJun 22, 20191 votes

And perhaps if you had read what I had said, you would have realized I referenced the original meta of 2 top, 1 mid, 2 bot that turned into 1 top, 1 mid, 2 bot, 1 jungler? I’ll tell you what, the experience for those toplaners would have been awful, having to lane 1v2.

Nowadays we have to wait for the new metas to trickle down to NA from Korea because the Koreans don’t “bish” about or get banned for that kind of thing.

My point is that even if you communicate it to everyone, and they accept it, and they cooperate, if enough people report you, you’re going to get banned. This would technically apply for any champion in any role in any playstyle. If enough people don’t like your playstyle enough to send a report, you’re going to get banned. This isn’t banning people, this is banning divergent and innovative playstyles.

You have to remember in the case of your all important AP shyvana example that Riot Games themselves buffed her AP scalings with the express intent of making her be able to go AP as well.

ThefrostyvikingJun 22, 20191 votes

You didnt refer to anything of back then x)

So basically exactly what I said? If your off meta play so much as makes people feel slightly uncomfortable, don’t play it, and perhaps, don’t even play League if you want to play off meta?

What you’re saying is lining up 100% with what I posted. Every champion you pick, every play you make, and every item you buy greatly impacts your teammates and your game.

So let me insert a TL;DR for you: “you’re free to play whatever you want as long as you play exactly what everyone else wants you to play.”

Neither in your comment nor in the post above except very vaguely in :

All in all, we have a situation where there is less flexibility to play an off meta role than ever before.

This is so vague it´s basically worth naught, could be referring to a couple of months back to a couple of years back as much as it could refer to 8 years back.

You want to make a statement? Be clear about it.

Now as for the early league where the game went from duo top to top+jungle........thing is that new strategies are generally far more easily accepted when the pro´s do it first, and that´s what went down there if i recall.

The league community was also more thoughtful back then if long timers are to be believed so if someone wanted to do something weird they´d tell the others about it first.

Nowadays we have to wait for the new metas to trickle down to NA from Korea because the Koreans don’t “bish” about or get banned for that kind of thing.

Dear lord you truly have no idea, Korea, china and whatnot are some of the most toxic servers you´ll ever find, they even have professional trolls that earn money by doing their best to screw things up.

But going back on track, have you ever seen any kind of Korean strategy that was anywhere near so meta breaking and team-impacting as the Teemo nubrac one? They are generally fairly conservative in that regard too.

So they do bring up "weird" picks and builds but they play according to the standard model.

And you are correct Riot did buff AP shyv first, but it was far from accepted in the start and tons of people failed badly at it, myself included.

But do not forget the Swain support, that is probably my best proof that weird shit does not get banned just for being weird, was a post on the Swain reddit talking about a guy hitting masters with it even.

What does get banned though, is stuff that has a baseline of badly affecting your teammates for your own possible success.

preternaturalJun 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=brEJp6Fn,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-06-18T10:25:05.625+0000)

In recent news, Nubrac played Teemo support mid without telling his team beforehand. Many think he deserved his ban because of it. Now, I’m not certain whether or not Nubrac deserved his ban, but let me ask you this: do all of you seriously think he would get to play his off meta gameplay if he tried to “communicate it to his team?”

It’s insane that many of you folks are insinuating that people will (A) not dodge (B) not troll him (C) cooperate with and accommodate his playstyle.

It’s even crazier that the concept seems to be “off meta is bannable if your team isn’t okay with it.” So basically, if I were to play off meta, I would just have to encounter the right number of meta slaves before I get banned?

All in all, we have a situation where there is less flexibility to play an off meta role than ever before. If you want to play something that isn’t the meta, you might as well just outright quit this game; that is my takeaway from the recent events as well as from past events. You’re going to get attacked by this wonderful community. Riot’s going to ban you. If you’re lucky you get unbanned, but you will nonetheless permanently be met with distaste and ire.

So, somebody tell me how I am wrong? How is it that one can play off meta without meeting this fate? Or is it that when you folks and Riot say “off meta,” you mean building statikk shiv before infinity edge, or rab cap before zhonya’s?

there are clips of ghost/celerity singed getting through the draft so i'm not buying this idea that all the games will be dodged. or even dotot with the roaming kata support grief strat, there's clips of that too. so for sure not every game will get dodged and if it's a good strat then people would eventually want to play with it, this has been going on a while longer in the top tier than people know about lol. after all that time to field test his strat no one wanted to play with it still? impressive

also, the game or community is not averse to off meta strats, problem is the first testers aren't impressed by it so it's not a viable strat, don't see anyone aping it for instance.

ROYALR3IGNJun 18, 20191 votes

I think the official stance on this is you can play whatever champ you want and build "off meta" but you still have to perform your role. There was a few situations like this with that one trick Nunu "support" taking smite and just trolling the enemy jg but not actually supporting in Phreak's game. I think the same thing happened to a Singe player too not too long ago. If I understand the situation correctly Teemo wasn't supporting NB3 but spending the entire game roaming so I think he falls into the same category.

5050BSJun 18, 20192 votes

See this is how I see it.

If you are support then you are to support the adc. Not take over the ADC role, Not Support Mid, not Jungle. You are Support and that goes bot lane (unless you are Bard who can roam all the freaking time)

Nanuk PihoqahiakJun 22, 20191 votes

Yeah it's kind of shitty. They say you should communicate your intent to play offmeta, but will go against you for wanting to play offmeta. You don't really get the option for a fair shot at it when your team is already working against you lol.

Pierce The VealJun 27, 20191 votes

Yeah. “Talk it out” and “communicate” sound great, but both of those require cooperation. It’s not like you can just tell people what you’re doing and then expect to not be trolled/reported/dodged.