Melee champions should have more damage or tank potential than ranged champions

Pierce The Veal·Aug 5, 2017·41 votes·2,377 views

A melee carry should scale harder than a ranged carry.

A melee tank should tank harder than a ranged tank.

A melee crowd controller should have better crowd control than a ranged crowd controller.

Range gives so much power that it's ridiculous. I do not think that ranged champions should do more or similar damage to melee champions when melee champions have to risk their neck to do what the ranged champion does without trying.

158 Comments

The DeckownerAug 5, 201720 votes

ADC use to have no mr per level, until Rito started making everyone adc's bitch since late S5.

Pierce The VealAug 5, 20179 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vyPRnf5R,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-08-05T04:28:39.855+0000)

ADC use to have no mr per level, until Rito started making everyone adc's bitch since late S5.

Ah, the days where being ranged actually meant you had less base stats.

NineTailedMysticAug 5, 20173 votes

No, it's because of the removal of the +15 MR on Locket which made Magic Damage dealers too strong in that MRs absence. They then gave ranged champions scaling MR to compensate. And it's still less than what melee champions get at an amazing +0.5 MR per level.

LankPantsAug 5, 201710 votes

In that case wouldn't it have made sense to give every champion +0.5 extra MR per level and not just ranged?

ZephyrDrakeAug 5, 20173 votes

{quoted}

In that case wouldn't it have made sense to give every champion +0.5 extra MR per level and not just ranged?

the entire point of that change was to offset that item 3105 didn't give a MR aura anymore so they gave everyone who didn't have MR per lvl this. Some melee champions were also affected by this if i remember correctly

Sire HippingtonAug 5, 201710 votes

Just that item 3105 gave 15 mr also to melees with scaleing mr. So why are those melee's not compensated? They lost just as much mr as the others with the aegis changes...

NineTailedMysticAug 5, 20172 votes

Because scaling MR at all on a squishy makes much more of a difference than some extra scaling MR on a melee.

Pierce The VealAug 5, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Because scaling MR at all on a squishy makes much more of a difference than some extra scaling MR on a melee.

15 MR will make a significant difference on a melee as well?

NineTailedMysticAug 5, 20171 votes

Like I said tho, ranged champions scaling MR is only .5 per level. That's +9 MR at level 18. Do you really think that'd be that much of a difference on a melee when they already get a decent amount of scaling MR?

Pierce The VealAug 5, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Like I said tho, ranged champions scaling MR is only .5 per level. That's +9 MR at level 18. Do you really think that'd be that much of a difference on a melee when they already get a decent amount of scaling MR?

That was for free though.

Why do I even get MR runes then if 9 mr isn't much of a difference?

GayFluffyUnicornAug 5, 20174 votes

Little fun fact. Ashe for example has three less base armor than jarvan. You know the bruiser who is supposed to jump into 5 people against the ranged perma slow permakite death machine.

DemainaNyxAug 5, 20172 votes

To be fair, you can't kite while in Jarvans ultimate.

ArakadiaAug 5, 20173 votes

You completely ignore so many factors.

J4 has on demand hard CC, two dashes, and a shield. He has a bigger health pool and other stat advantages while being encouraged to build tanky. Ashe has no mobility, no shields, no burst, no terrain. She has to build glass cannon, she can't build tankier like J4.

And perma slows mean nothing when Ashe is stuck in a targeted J4 ult and unable to dodge the attacks of J4's team.

RankOneUgandaAug 5, 20178 votes

they do. its just that. its quite meaningless lmao.

some ranged even have higher base stats. most melees do have better stats however. but. 100 hp and 10 mr don't exactly do a whole lot.

Pierce The VealAug 5, 20174 votes

{quoted}

they do. its just that. its quite meaningless lmao.

some ranged even have higher base stats. most melees do have better stats however. but. 100 hp and 10 mr don't exactly do a whole lot.

They really don't.

Adc's can strike upwards of 2k damage in one auto, with over 3k dps on quite a few. No melee carry is capable of that.

As for ranged mages, they all hurt a lot lot lot more than "melee mages." A class that doesn't even really exist. You are more likely to get nuked from a distance than from up close.

Need Gold 4 TentAug 5, 201710 votes

A melee dps is capable more dps than a ranged one with the same build. however, no melee with the exception of master yi, tryndamere and yasuo will ever do that because it just won't work, or work but are really really unreliable anyway. Try building crit Xin, Udyr, Rengar, Warwick, Nocturne and Shyvana, and tell me again they don't do damage.

However, the ranged advantage is just far too high that the little bit of stat advantage they have just doesn't help unless it is a facetank duel so they're better off building more defensively to last longer to do more things.

AirKingNeoAug 5, 20173 votes

I haven't a 2000 striking Crit since season 5 except for fed Jhins.

ThefrostyvikingAug 5, 20173 votes

2k in 1 auto?

Are you perhaps intoxicated?

There are two marksmen in the entire game that can do anything like that, first is Draven with his crazy Q scaling when he hits a max AD/Crit build, the other is Caitlyn with her traps+passive+ rapidfire+static+infinity crit.

Do find me another that does anything like that...... except Twitch and his ridiculous ultimate x)

MarshbouyAug 6, 20172 votes

2k in 1 auto?

I think OP just faced a draven who went like 30/0 in lane and was full build at 15 min.

Romans VI XXIIIAug 5, 20174 votes

lol, melee already do out scale range champions. you should research just a little before posting :)

Pierce The VealAug 5, 201710 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arndt E Z,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vyPRnf5R,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-05T00:48:37.644+0000)

lol, melee already do out scale range champions. you should research just a little before posting :)

Name one melee that outscales ranged champions.

Don't worry, I'll wait, as I watch Vayne's 475% AD Q crits and % hp true damage, draven's 2k damage Q's, caitlyn's headshots, corki's mixed damage+rumble W, and more.

DunkinNoobsAug 5, 201718 votes

{quoted}

Name one melee that outscales ranged champions.

Yasuo Fiora MasterYi Nasus Tryndamere

There's 5 off the top of my head. Range may still be a huge advantage but pretending that they beat melee champs 1v1 on equal gold and exp is silly. The only ranged champ I can think of that consistently does this is Vayne, and she has a number of crippling weaknesses to make up for that dueling prowess.

rtbf221651412Aug 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

There's 5 off the top of my head. Range may still be a huge advantage but pretending that they beat melee champs 1v1 on equal gold and exp is silly. The only ranged champ I can think of that consistently does this is Vayne, and she has a number of crippling weaknesses to make up for that dueling prowess.

You forgot Zed

Scaling doesn't mean crap at times. Burst and base stats does for melee. You want attack speed on melee? Less base stats on melee?

Good luck with balancing that. @DracoMTA

Big LincolnAug 5, 201710 votes

what's wrong with melee champions having attack speed

rtbf221651412Aug 5, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vyPRnf5R,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-05T04:16:06.416+0000)

what's wrong with melee champions having attack speed

If we are talking assassins, that is one thing you don't want on them.

You want burst.

That is why Evelynn is a failure of an assassin.

HosuaAug 5, 20176 votes

saying eve hasnt got burst is very ignorant lol.

LordGeovanniAug 5, 20171 votes

exactly the only functional diffrence between 200 damage in 1 seconds from 1 spell and 100 per half second over spamming spells is one is vulnerable to interruption

HosuaAug 5, 20172 votes

im not talking about her q, as that is mainly only used for farming and early ganks/chasing. her e is a massive nuke that has huge scaling and is very deadly if u are even only slightly ahead. her 1shot is much deadlier than many other assassins, as they have burst windows but eve's is literally r -> e (bush cheese makes this much easier). most of the time that is enough to 1shot a squishy in about .5 secs, and if they live u can throw out a couple of q's and honestly unless the carry has crazy peel (which is quite common now, and is why eve is much weaker than she was earlier this season, at least imo) the carry will die.

LordGeovanniAug 8, 20171 votes

my point still stands eves q does lots of damage more so than her e in a really short amount of time only takes about 2 seconds to do the same amout as e and its always up while e is down where it out damages e but 2 seconds is a really short time and can be considered burst

MontethePythonAug 5, 20172 votes

Zed's scaling is not very good... lol where did you hear that it was? His power peaks very firmly in the mid game and he's hard to do as much with after 30 minutes, don't get me wrong, he's not garbage tier late game, but he does not scale remotely.

rtbf221651412Aug 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Zed's scaling is not very good... lol where did you hear that? His power peaks very firmly in the mid game and he's hard to do as much with after 30 minutes, don't get me wrong, he's not garbage tier late game, but he does not scale remotely.

I didn't say his scaling was bad. Learn to seperate from a bar.

Which apparently 5+ people don't know how to do.

Also in regards to attack speed, you need less attack and more HP to make use of it. When does that ever go well?

MontethePythonAug 6, 20172 votes

No i'm saying his scaling is bad you nincompoop. Because it is, perhaps had you read the entire passage you'd have understood that i was asking you from where did you hear that his scaling was any good. His scaling is very sub-par. I never said or insinuated that you said his scaling was bad. Learn to separate from a bar. And also to spell separate.

Pierce The VealAug 5, 20173 votes

{quoted}

There's 5 off the top of my head. Range may still be a huge advantage but pretending that they beat melee champs 1v1 on equal gold and exp is silly. The only ranged champ I can think of that consistently does this is Vayne, and she has a number of crippling weaknesses to make up for that dueling prowess.

All of those champions (except nasus, listing nasus is like listing thresh or Veigar, it's bs and unrealistic for nasus to outdamage a ranged champion in a regular game). As for the other listed champs, none other than Yi have a chance of outscaling ranged champions. The only way they compete is by sheer survivability gimmicks.

DunkinNoobsAug 5, 20176 votes

{quoted}

The only way they compete is by sheer survivability gimmicks.

I'm curious why those don't count exactly.

5000000000000000Aug 5, 20175 votes

That's the whole point of melee carries though lmao How else do they expect getting into melee range and survive while doing damage

Sire HippingtonAug 5, 20175 votes

they beat melee champs **1v1 **on equal gold and exp is silly

No one said anything about 1v1. Don't tell me that nasus, tryn or even fiora have comparable impact to any adc in a lategame teamfight. Even yi and yasuo have a very hard time IF their opponents have cc and are decently coordinated. Though they arguably have a godlike late in soloQ.

LordGeovanniAug 5, 20174 votes

none of those champions outscale any adc they all have a gimmick that gives situational damage. Nasus builds full and still has horrible defense his gimmick that gives him damage just allows that to be okay

Romans VI XXIIIAug 5, 20173 votes

For starters ALL melee champs out scale ALL range champs in regards to base stats, Fact.

For seconds, the highest scaling ADC in regards to scaling from abilities is actually Caitlyn . (And probably the highest scaling Range champion as well, except maybe Ryze.) (+1.7) AD on Q, (+.7) AD on W, (+.8) AP on E, (+2.0) AD on R, ((+.5) AD) x (.5) Crit on Passive. Total: 4.9 AD + .8 AP + .5 Crit Chance

And lets use Katarina , as she is a melee champion. (+.3) AP on Q, (+.5) AD and (+.25) AP on E, (+3.3) B AD and (+2.85) AP on R, (+1.0) B AD and (+1.0) AP on Passive. *B = Bonus Total: .5 AD + 4.4 AP + 4.3 B AD

Damn look at that, Katarina a MELEE champions has nearly 2 TIMES the scaling of Caitlyn a RANGED champion.

Have you ever just for once thought about why Ranged ADCs need that support champion to protect them?

5000000000000000Aug 5, 20176 votes

You're comparing the burst potential between a burst champion and DPS champion. Your conclusion (melees scale harder than ranged) might not be wrong, but this is a terrible example.

Romans VI XXIIIAug 5, 20171 votes

Name one melee that outscales ranged champions.

he never once talked about "DPS" ever in any of his statements.

5000000000000000Aug 5, 20175 votes

It's like comparing how much magic damage a mage does compared to a tank. You're comparing an assassin and an ADC based on how much they are like an assassin. If you compare the DPS of LeBlanc and Jinx, then Jinx is obviously going to score higher.

AFilthyCaitMainAug 5, 20173 votes

MasterYi Leona Yasuo Riven Fiora Tryndamere

https://image.prntscr.com/image/DFBUSSFjQ7udvBfCcy_jbA.png

Tldr: Lethality Riven is retarded

Critmaster GarenAug 5, 20178 votes

{quoted}

https://image.prntscr.com/image/DFBUSSFjQ7udvBfCcy_jbA.png

Tldr: Lethality Riven is retarded

Tristana Caitlyn Ryze Vayne KogMaw

i could probably find a couple more.

its not just about raw damage, but how well they perform overall in combined damage and reliability.

its true, that a yi will deal slightly more damage than a tristana lategame. but her kill pressure and carry potential are much higher due to her absurd safety while applying this damage.

tristana might deal like 25% less damage than yi, but can disengage from him 3 times and kill him before he can even fight her.

tristana as a back line champion contributes 10 times more to a team than yi as a frontline champion, since the opportunites for him to even take fights are extremely rare.

and before anyone complains about Ryze low winrate. its a known fact that he has a crazy high learning curve and in the hands of someone whos well experienced with him (200 games and upwards), hes an absolute monster.

hes pretty much like riven or yasuo in a sense that many players feed 200 games on him before they start seeing positive results.

AFilthyCaitMainAug 5, 20172 votes

The thing is, Skirmishers have their situational safety to fall back on, which usually is what gives them such high skill caps and skill floors. Ever seen a Fiora/Yasuo/Riven 1v5? (Now dont even get me started on Tristana, her safety is bs)

Critmaster GarenAug 5, 20177 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, Skirmishers have their situational safety to fall back on, which usually is what gives them such high skill caps and skill floors. Ever seen a Fiora/Yasuo/Riven 1v5? (Now dont even get me started on Tristana, her safety is bs)

yes, but ranged champions general safety is usually more reliable and makes them scale better than skirmishers situational safety.

there is a good reason most skirmishers are played exclusively as split pushers. they suck ass in larger teamfights.

on the other hand you have champions like Tristana Vayne who excell at both 1v1 and teamfight scenarios mid to lategame.

AFilthyCaitMainAug 5, 20172 votes

Well what use is range if you can just get up in their face? if youre in their face their range is useless, while skirmishers can ALWAYS use their defence

Critmaster GarenAug 5, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Well what use is range if you can just get up in their face? if youre in their face their range is useless, while skirmishers can ALWAYS use their defence

you cant really always get in their face.

in cases of vayne and tristana its close to impossible in lategame teamfight scenarios unless they make a huge mistake. which is exactly the point i was trying to make, why they outscale skirmishers.

point and click disengages on top of mobility would do that for you. and generally speaking, ranged champions dont lose strength when theyre fighting in melee range.

vaynes auto attacks wont kill you slower just because youre infornt of her.

AFilthyCaitMainAug 5, 20173 votes

My point is, a skirmishers job isnt to lock down a carry, thats a tanks job. Skirmishers usually wait for someone ELSE to engage for them, you usually flank. and the point of getting in melee range is that you do better damage than them since you are melee. Also, Vayne and other ranged carries like her are hypercarries, youll have to have a plan in mind before you go barrelling into them.

Critmaster GarenAug 5, 20176 votes

{quoted}

My point is, a skirmishers job isnt to lock down a carry, thats a tanks job. Skirmishers usually wait for someone ELSE to engage for them, you usually flank. and the point of getting in melee range is that you do better damage than them since you are melee. Also, Vayne and other ranged carries like her are hypercarries, youll have to have a plan in mind before you go barrelling into them.

but why can ranged carries peel for themselves if melee carries cant engage for themselves?

i dont think there really is a good plan in dealing with a champion whos combined damage scaling with a stacked range/disengage advange outscales your own team.

thats why these champions are lategame carries.

except for riven i cant think of a skirmisher, diver or juggernaut who can really keep up with the ranged lategame carries. and thats because shes almost an assassin.

even nasus who scales very strong in damage right now still gets outscaled by these ranegd champions since they can already kite him on their own.

AFilthyCaitMainAug 5, 20173 votes

Like i said before, you have to know what youre going to do to kill them instead of just mindlessly walking up to them. also Ranged carries cant engage for themselves, and Skirmishers can peel for themselves, it balances out.
, this is why you flank them, if you can use the mobility you are given (which i think ALL skirmishers have), along with like a flash or something, theyre dead.
Juggernauts arent supposed to be able to catch up to people, their weakness is kiting. also, These guys all have mobility to catch up to carries, that point is invalid.
Nasus is a juggernaut, hes supposed to be kited, even then, he was wither to catch up to them and q nuke them for 1/2 hp.