Why can Zoe recast Q while stunned or even zhonyad?

Hibeki·Dec 13, 2017·64 votes·3,866 views

Literally the only counterplay for this fucking ability other than 'dodge it' was removed for literally no reason.

If my stun lasts longer than it lasts for that should be AN OUTPLAY. You shouldnt be able to just recast it anyway, youre stunned.

Cant recast Q while stunned, why does this broken piece of shit get to?

This is intentional coding. Certainly T purposefully went in and made it so you could recast Q while stunned. Because other abilities dont have this. Typical CT champ has tons of little broken shit not mentioned on the kit that make the kits totally overbearing.

122 Comments

ChermorgDec 13, 201720 votes

How do you know he purposefully did it and that this wasn’t an unintentional oversight? Each ability is coded independently - they may very well have just thought “well every other recast ability doesn’t let you so this one wont too” and overlooked the fact there’s an extra line of code in each of them. I recommend reading up on this “policy” on Wikipedia for contributors which you should try to do. There is absolutely no reason to assume bad faith here - until evidence is provided to the contrary we should assume that it was unintentional and will be fixed. If it was intentional, we should not assume that CT was trying to do anything other than make a fun champion. Champions are never loved or balanced at the start. Never.
That all being said, I haven’t personally seen any cases where it was fully recast while stunned/stasis. That being said, there’s a chance that it’s a thing, so I’ll assume it is - maybe it’s specifically to allow Zoe to have that unpredictability about her. There’s many reasons that it may be in the game, and simply being unique does not mean it should be removed. They will tune the damage for her kit to a level that makes her a quite high skill cap champion (in that she literally has 3 skill shots and very little surge in power at 6 due to her ult hardly doing anything except making her other skill shots more effective if she plans them). Zoe is likely to become someone who isn’t overpowered unless you get someone that knows her kit well like the back of their hand - which is what a high skill champ is designed to be. Nerfing the kit would not allow this to happen - my belief is that Riot will play a lot with the ratios (and maybe the times/CDs) over the next couple months to get her in a place where she isn’t pick/ban but in the right hands she’s still deadly af.

HibekiDec 13, 201738 votes

Because its a basic mechanic in the game. Having to individually code every single ability to not override stun and zhonya effects is pointless and redundant.

Therefore its reasonable to expect that the one exception was done purposefully, especially on a champion designed by a person who has made many other characters who have many many 'exceptions' to their kits.

If you want to go into an AI game right now, and hit me with a stun while my Q is out, I can recast it. She doesnt need unpredictability, this is just an excuse to have less counterplay.

ChermorgDec 13, 20178 votes

Pointless and redundant maybe, but heck, there’s so much code in League that they may have just not coded the default. That isn’t that hard to anticipate - they code every ability “if caster = stunned -then- do not cast”. That makes more sense than coding “if caster = stunned still cast” as imo that’d be more buggy than the alternative - one is a lack of action whereas one is coding for a specific action to occur. Coding nothing is easier and more reliable than coding something. The past does not define the present or future and so assuming he intended for this when there’s perfectly reliable explanations for it. Further, as I said, even if it was intentional it doesn’t matter because there is counterplay to it.
Buy a zhonyas. Buy a GA. Buy a banshee’s vail. Take cleanse. There’s so much counterplay to her that she needs some unpredictability in the kit to even stay viable once they start messing with the ratios and CDs.

HibekiDec 13, 201721 votes

Those things are all universal. Just like 'dodge the skillshot' it is not real counterplay.

Also Cleanse doesnt even cleanse the sleep fully.

Zendoo101Dec 13, 20171 votes

The problem with your statement is that, its not universal. Banish's veil will be many times more effective against Zoe then against Karthas.

HibekiDec 13, 201715 votes

Oh wow she popped my banshees veil.

Now she will get 10 more rotations in the time its up, oh wait you have to not be damaged by enemies to get it back.

SpiritOfOdysseusDec 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Because its a basic mechanic in the game. Having to individually code every single ability to not override stun and zhonya effects is pointless and redundant.

Therefore its reasonable to expect that the one exception was done purposefully, especially on a champion designed by a person who has made many other characters who have many many 'exceptions' to their kits.

If you want to go into an AI game right now, and hit me with a stun while my Q is out, I can recast it. She doesnt need unpredictability, this is just an excuse to have less counterplay.

There is a million different ways to speculate any one truth, but the truth will always remain the same. Riot has stated in the past that this game was made with "spaghetti-code"

HibekiDec 13, 201737 votes

Again, when this is made by a guy who adds all sorts of secret bullshit mechanics and exceptions to his champions abilities, its hard to believe its coincidental. Like really hard.

TheGoomyGamerDec 13, 20172 votes

What other 'secret bullshit mechanics' are there that CT has added? I can't think of any off the top of my head other than thresh's Q -> Flash -> Lantern -> Recast Q for a massive lantern journey, and even that seems like an unintended interaction.

HibekiDec 13, 201732 votes

Yasuo R puts him out of turret range

Yasuo can cast before enemies can with his ult despite being locked in the same animation. Imagine if Malzahar R was like that.

Zoe E cant be cleansed properly.

Thresh Q still pulls you the same distance, regardless of distance travelled. Point blank Q? Still moves you back a mile.

Yasuo windwall shields his entire body for a few frames before becoming a wall. Instead of placing a wall like a normal person, it jets out from the center of his model (covering him entirely) THEN goes to the selected point.

Zyra plants will always get an auto on you when they become plants if you are in range (even if you move out of range before they are able to attack)

Kalista Ghoul can be inside the dragon and be on it forever until it expires.

Must I go on?

TheGoomyGamerDec 13, 20171 votes

Some of them seen like unintended interactions , as opposed to intentionally implemented interactions. I do agree that Yasuo's R and W problems should be fixed, however. I was unaware of the Zyra interaction, but is it not similar to AAs/Spells being cast on targets outside of range because they were within range upon cast?

HibekiDec 13, 201722 votes

These are all 100% intended. Theyve been in the game for years and despite complaints they havent been fixed. Coincidentally, all CT champs.

ElipoDec 14, 20176 votes

And peopple still defend him. And Riot doesn't even adress these stuff. NEPOTISM

Yaśuo MainDec 13, 20171 votes

Yes
be a bit more understandable
from what I see, yes
Yea
Yes
Yes
Didn't know that one

HibekiDec 13, 20172 votes

.....ok?

Yaśuo MainDec 13, 20173 votes

The point was to validate your points by reviewing them. Honestly it makes me sad that Zoe was designed by CertainlyT considering that I main one of his big works, and that he has purposely hidden mechanics in 2+ of his champions that is not telegraphed, counterable, AND shown even to the player of the champion. Basically I'm

#WOKE

Chembaron YamadaDec 13, 20174 votes

Pretty sure the Kalista W in dragon pit is not intentional, but a pathing problem.

SpecterVonBarenDec 14, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Thresh Q still pulls you the same distance, regardless of distance travelled. Point blank Q? Still moves you back a mile.

That sounds more like the ability being consistent than a special thing added

Kalista Ghoul can be inside the dragon and be on it forever until it expires.

That just sounds like a problem with hitboxes.

Otherwise, carry on.

HibekiDec 14, 20176 votes

All other hooks pull them to yourself.

If thresh hooks me and the first 'nudge' pulls me to him, and he moves slightly to the left, it will move again because i am no longer on top of him, but the same distance. I will almost move past him.

which is why you see thresh's hook people and flay them so you are so far behind them you are certainly T---dead.

SpecterVonBarenDec 14, 20172 votes

That's consistency. Blitz's hook moves a champion to his position, Nautilus's hook moves him and the champion he hooks to the point between the two of them. Thresh's hook does not move you to a specific position though, it moves you a certain distance in his direction which is why it can go past him.

HibekiDec 14, 20174 votes

Their CC stops when they collide with you. Regardless of whether the person hooking moves or not. Thresh does not.

Teridax68Dec 13, 20177 votes

There's a pretty well-documented interaction with Yasuo and his ult, where the blink automatically positions him out of turret range whenever possible, and otherwise as far out of turret range as possible. Sometimes it even carries him several hundred units on the other side of a wall from where his enemies are being suspended. Kalista's ult also arrived with a recoding to hook abilities that caused hooked targets to travel to wherever the caster moved, even though hook abilities root the caster in place. This effectively allows her to combo her ult with any hook character to pull in targets from several thousand units away. From what I understand, this is also something that can be done/extended with Thresh's lantern, though not with any other effect.

ThilmerDec 14, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Again, when this is made by a guy who adds all sorts of secret bullshit mechanics and exceptions to his champions abilities, its hard to believe its coincidental. Like really hard.

And people wonders why I consider CertainlyT a balance problem.

ScissorsNstuffDec 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Because its a basic mechanic in the game. Having to individually code every single ability to not override stun and zhonya effects is pointless and redundant.

Therefore its reasonable to expect that the one exception was done purposefully, especially on a champion designed by a person who has made many other characters who have many many 'exceptions' to their kits.

If you want to go into an AI game right now, and hit me with a stun while my Q is out, I can recast it. She doesnt need unpredictability, this is just an excuse to have less counterplay.

excuse?

Anyways, even if it was a mistake riot very probably knows about this and intentionally left it there for data purposes. Also thematically zoe may be able to do things that shouldn't make much sense, same with lulu.

None of which actually hurts her counterplay. Her counterplay isn't that you can dodge her skillshot. Riot doesn't even acknowledge that as actual counterplay. Her counterplay is that her sustained damage is trash and her escapes are situational trash that are sometimes less trashy trash than normal trash.

I'd like to emphasize again, that even if you could dodge every skillshot Riot in the past has not acknowledged this as legitimate counterplay.

HibekiDec 13, 201718 votes

2000+ damage on a 3 second cd sustain damage trash?

LOSINGISMYPRIDEDec 13, 20174 votes

wht i hate about this champion is why she has 3 bar of difficulty while only one ability gather all her damage . She barely spent 3 time less mana than a champion who use 3 ability like xerath which has higher mana cost .

koshkyraDec 14, 20172 votes

Also, she didnt have it before but she has it now, meaning CT intentionally bred it into Zoe with her changes.

Chembaron YamadaDec 14, 201716 votes

Like many things from CertainlyT, I think the answer is "because it wouldn't be fun for the user".

If you play Zoe yourself, it would suck to throw a star behind you, then get stunned and it just fizzles without doing anything. Can't think of another reason why he intentionally coded that Morgana's shield doesn't block the sleep effect either.

Do I think it is valid? Not really. Fun for the player is important, however, fun for the enemy is as well. For example, they decided in favour of the defender in special interaction cases for Urgots ult. I don't see this "it shouldn't be too frustrating for the enemy" in CertainlyT designs.

I don't have anything against him, but how I see it, he puts the fun of the player of the champion over the enemy's.

ChaddyFantomeDec 14, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Like many things from CertainlyT, I think the answer is "because it wouldn't be fun for the user".

If you play Zoe yourself, it would suck to throw a star behind you, then get stunned and it just fizzles without doing anything. Can't think of another reason why he intentionally coded that Morgana's shield doesn't block the sleep effect either.

Do I think it is valid? Not really. Fun for the player is important, however, fun for the enemy is as well. For example, they decided in favour of the defender in special interaction cases for Urgots ult. I don't see this "it shouldn't be too frustrating for the enemy" in CertainlyT designs.

I don't have anything against him, but how I see it, he puts the fun of the player of the champion over the enemy's.

In defense of the Morganna shield thing, i totally buy that is just a bug. Her E technically applies 2 instances of CC, and i imagine the second one is merely being applied and accidently bypassing her BlackShield.

But yea. Yasuo had the same kind of training wheel bullshit so it cant be a coincidence.

Chembaron YamadaDec 14, 201710 votes

As far as I know, it got stated that it's an intended interaction.

KuboxDec 14, 201712 votes

It's not actually a bug, he said his reasoning in a Reddit thread.

It basically comes down to he had 2 ways of dealing with the Black Shield in mind :

Morgana has to shield after Zoe's E. In this case, Drowsy is not considered a CC while the sleep is, so it will persists through the shield. This punishes Morgana for reacting to the skill too quickly as the shield can easily be broken by the spell, thus failing to save someone from the sleep.
Morgana has to shield before Zoe's E. What we got. In this case, Drowsy is considered a CC while the sleep is merely an effect caused by it. This makes it so Morgana has to shield it before it hits her since she cannot prevent the a drowsy target from sleeping.

There's obviously a third option which is "Both are CCs", but I'm guessing he felt that would be unfair to the Zoe player or simply made Morgana too strong against her.

ChaddyFantomeDec 15, 20172 votes

There's obviously a third option which is "Both are CCs", but I'm guessing he felt that would be unfair to the Zoe player or simply made Morgana too strong against her.

Which is a dumb argument imo, 1. Every other champ with a single CC spell has to deal with it and 2. because god forbid a champ be good against one of CTs champs amirite?

Hong Kong AnnieDec 14, 20173 votes

With the more shield it makes sense. You should have to use shied before the first part of the e hits.

Chembaron YamadaDec 14, 20178 votes

Meanwhile it is allowed to cockblock my Urgot ult if it gets casted reactively after my drill. :/

Hong Kong AnnieDec 14, 20176 votes

See now that should be changed

Busty DemonessDec 14, 20176 votes

But even if you cleanse the drowsy, you still fall asleep.

Morg Shield isn't the interaction you want there, because it still matches with Nasus. It's QSS.

Hong Kong AnnieDec 14, 20171 votes

That's because cleanse breaks the slow. The sleep seems to work no matter what once you get hit. But say if sivir spell Shields the bubble she won't be slowed or fall asleep. Think of it as getting hit by the bubble puts you to sleep not the drowsy effect.

Busty DemonessDec 14, 20179 votes

If Morg's shield is not allowed to block the sleep because "progressive CC", then cleanse/QSS should prevent sleep if used during Drowsy.

This is exactly how it works on Nasus. Zoe does not need to be an exception.

ScissorsNstuffDec 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zhhtIQI6,comment-id=00030001000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-14T01:06:00.281+0000)

If Morg's shield is not allowed to block the sleep because "progressive CC", then cleanse/QSS should prevent sleep if used during Drowsy.

This is exactly how it works on Nasus. Zoe does not need to be an exception.

That's not how it works on nasus, nasus applies 2 cc simultaneously.. zoe does 2 that are separate.

Zoe is actually more related to fizz. She gives a cc and a debuff. The debuff triggers a CC. Morg shield blocks cc not debuffs and the triggered effect of debuffs. There will still be a shark though I think fizzes may fall off since its silly and does this sort of thing. Zoe's doesn't have anything to fall off really.

Busty DemonessDec 15, 20173 votes

Wrong. Nasus is a progressive CC and all future effects will disappear when you cleanse Wither.

Additionally, as I recall cleansing Fizz's attached ultimate will cause it to drop. Regardless, the two CC are also completely independent in terms of operation. Even if he misses, the Knockup is a delayed CC. If he hits a target with the skillshot, it will apply a slow with the normal delayed knock up.

Zoe does not follow either of these AND CertainlyT stated it was intended as a progressive CC (So Nasus should be the example set).

If you cleanse the drowsy, you will still be affected by the sleep. That's equivalent to Nasus getting the remaining stacks of his slow even though you cleansed Wither partway through. Nasus does not follow that pattern which means Zoe shouldn't either.

ScissorsNstuffDec 13, 20172 votes

why not just dodge it though? Did you realize that building attack speed and actually knowing how to orb walk can help you dodge skillshots more easily? It lowers the animation time for your autoattacks so you can un-root yourself after every aa faster.

HibekiDec 13, 201727 votes

what the fuck are you talking about.

ScissorsNstuffDec 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

what the fuck are you talking about.

I'm talking about why you need the additional counterplay. You didn't really go into detail about this and she sucks against sustained damage once it starts melting her. As expected but still you never really said much about this.

that's what the fuck i'm talking about and I think its pretty obvious that's what the fuck I'm talking about.

TrikzterzArmaDec 13, 201715 votes

Being able to attack faster doesn't make it easier to avoid skillshots wtf

IncompyDec 14, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Being able to attack faster doesn't make it easier to avoid skillshots wtf

Don't take it out of context. He said that attack speed AND orbwalking help to dodge skillshots, and he is right in that general statement. Knowing how to orbwalk + more AS = more moving around = harder to hit with a skillshot

Teridax68Dec 13, 201719 votes

Except preventing a champion from casting while inflicting spell-disabling CC on them isn't "additional" counterplay, it's default counterplay. It is one of the fundamental rules of how crowd control interacts with abilities in League, and the only way to bypass it is by explicitly using a cleansing or CC immunity effect on your champion. For an ability to ignore this kind of counterplay, not only would it require a very good reason to do so, but it would also have to be made clear to everyone, so that everyone involved is aware of that special interaction. The above effect, if it is true, does neither. Telling people to orbwalk or "just dodge" the ability in response to this is, at best, completely irrelevant to what is being discussed, and at worst an attempt to excuse an inexcusable in-game interaction.

ScissorsNstuffDec 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Except preventing a champion from casting while inflicting spell-disabling CC on them isn't "additional" counterplay, it's default counterplay. It is one of the fundamental rules of how crowd control interacts with abilities in League

This isn't a fundamental rule. Its only an understood pattern that already has various exceptions
Zoe is not a normal champ... and thus probably doesn't adhere to normal logic 3...10) ZOE IS NOT FUCKING NORMAL

and the only way to bypass it is by explicitly using a cleansing or CC immunity effect on your champion. For an ability to ignore this kind of counterplay, not only would it require a very good reason to do so, but it would also have to be made clear to everyone, so that everyone involved is aware of that special interaction.

Yes, clarity is nice and actually is a riot design pillar. But I'm talking about counterplay and asking why it has to be that specific counterplay

The above effect, if it is true, does neither. Telling people to orbwalk or "just dodge" the ability in response to this is, at best, completely irrelevant to what is being discussed, and at worst an attempt to excuse an inexcusable in-game interaction.

When someone asks a question sometimes its better to try actually answering the question in your head to understand the question rather than just assuming they were implicitly giving some sort of order and dismissal.

What you say I said was "just orbwalk" What I actually said was "why can't you orbwalk"

It was suggested that her only counterplay has been removed thus Rito must nerf! This thought on its own, as misguided as it is, is hardly complete nor is it at all supported by the reality.

Zoe's winrate isn't very good btw.

Anyways my post was not a suggestion to orbwalk, it was a question about why something cannot be dodged.

Teridax68Dec 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

This isn't a fundamental rule. Its only an understood pattern that already has various exceptions

Cast animations are not channels and cannot be interrupted once initiated, as is the case with Lux's ult. This is a general rule as well. The instance being discussed, however, is one where a new input is registered and applied, even though this input occurs while the champion in question is having their casting is disabled, and after the disable is applied. Where else exactly does this happen in League?

{quoted}

Zoe is not a normal champ... and thus probably doesn't adhere to normal logic 3...10) ZOE IS NOT FUCKING NORMAL

A) Define what constitutes a "normal" champion, and B) please explain how "Zoe is special" translates to "Zoe is not bound by typical rules of crowd control applied to her, in a manner that is clear to no-one".

{quoted}

Yes, clarity is nice and actually is a riot design pillar. But I'm talking about counterplay and asking why it has to be that specific counterplay

Because that specific counterplay is more than justified: if you hit a champion with ability-disabling crowd control, and they aren't explicitly given the ability to cleanse or resist it, they should not be able to cast while disabled. Being able to ignore crowd control is not a listed strength of Zoe's, whose slipperiness and squishiness means she shouldn't be CC-resistant in the first place. As you pointed out, this interaction is detrimental to both her counterplay and her clarity, with seemingly no good tradeoff to be made from it. Again, this kind of exception is something that requires justification to exist, because it breaks so hard from the norm, so the real question is: what is the justification for this interaction? What good does it bring?

{quoted}

When someone asks a question sometimes its better to try actually answering the question in your head to understand the question rather than just assuming they were implicitly giving some sort of order and dismissal.

I completely agree, which is why I ask you not to dismiss my response to you and give an explanation of why you think Zoe being able to ignore CC is justified. You may claim to be "just asking questions", but your questions are themselves dismissive and only tangentially relevant to the topic of discussion.

{quoted}

What you say I said was "just orbwalk" What I actually said was "why can't you orbwalk"

Please explain what meaningful difference exists between these two quotes.

{quoted}

It was suggested that her only counterplay has been removed thus Rito must nerf! This thought on its own, as misguided as it is, is hardly complete nor is it at all supported by the reality.

This was not what was suggested at all, this is a strawman you're pulling to try to make it seem unreasonable for standard counterplay to apply to a League champion. Where exactly did anyone here suggest that this was the only counterplay to Zoe?

{quoted}

Zoe's winrate isn't very good btw.

So what? This isn't a discussion about her balance, this is a discussion about her design, or potentially a bug. Just because she's statistically weak doesn't mean she should be allowed to have unhealthy interactions in her kit.

{quoted}

Anyways my post was not a suggestion to orbwalk, it was a question about why something cannot be dodged.

Sure, but the topic of discussion has nothing to do with dodging skillshots, it's about a champion being able to cast abilities while having their ability to cast disabled. Your "question" had absolutely zero relevance to the subject matter, and whether you intended it to or not, came across as a disingenuous attempt to dismiss valid criticism.

ScissorsNstuffDec 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Cast animations are not channels and cannot be interrupted once initiated, as is the case with Lux's ult. This is a general rule as well. The instance being discussed, however, is one where a new input is registered and applied, even though this input occurs while the champion in question is having their casting is disabled, and after the disable is applied. Where else exactly does this happen in League?

doesn't matter. The point is that there are already multiple instances where ridiculous things will continue to happen regardless of whether or not you cc the opponent. This is not something strange or new. That zoe does this is weird looking but it is not as though she is the only one who could possibly ruin your day like this. Even if it does need to change it doesn't go against some fundamental rule

A) Define what constitutes a "normal" champion, and B) please explain how "Zoe is special" translates to "Zoe is not bound by typical rules of crowd control applied to her, in a manner that is clear to no-one".

abnormal lore abnormal theme abnormal kit type abnormal.. what is even normal about her? Hell we just kindof assume its a 'she' even. She's actually pretty androgynous which is also abnormal

Because that specific counterplay is more than justified: if you hit a champion with ability-disabling crowd control, and they aren't explicitly given the ability to cleanse or resist it, they should not be able to cast while disabled. Being able to ignore crowd control is not a listed strength of Zoe's, whose slipperiness and squishiness means she shouldn't be CC-resistant in the first place. As you pointed out, this interaction is detrimental to both her counterplay and her clarity, with seemingly no good tradeoff to be made from it. Again, this kind of exception is something that requires justification to exist, because it breaks so hard from the norm, so the real question is: what is the justification for this interaction? What good does it bring?

correct, it is a probably unjustified interaction. It is toxic

Many things are toxic and it doesn't require justification.. all of which is irrelevant

The supposition is that this was her only counterplay and thus this counterplay she never had and somehow lost upon materialization.. perhaps because someone read about her and decided what reality would be too early.. this is false and does not help the case revolving around her strange interactions as a strange champion

I completely agree, which is why I ask you not to dismiss my response to you and give an explanation of why you think Zoe being able to ignore CC is justified. You may claim to be "just asking questions", but your questions are themselves dismissive and only tangentially relevant to the topic of discussion.

they'd be more directly related if people didn't try so hard to derail and change the context of my words. When I ask "why can't you dodge" it means I want to know why you can't dodge. If you follow with "I can't dodge because cc stopping abilities is a fundamental law of nature" that conversation is going to get weird

Please explain what meaningful difference exists between these two quotes.

The first is a dismissal The second is an inquiry

The first is a demeaning suggestion that someone sucks and that orbwalking will fix the now downplayed problem The second is a question meant to be answered in a very simple manner

The first contributes nothing to the conversation and even attempts to end it perhaps The second looks deeper into the nature of the situation before coming to any conclusion

The first is what someone decided I said The second is what I actually said

The first is to be responded to with whining and salty tears The second is to be answered without drama

This was not what was suggested at all, this is a strawman you're pulling to try to make it seem unreasonable for standard counterplay to apply to a League champion. Where exactly did anyone here suggest that this was the only counterplay to Zoe?

read the first post

So what? This isn't a discussion about her balance, this is a discussion about her design, or potentially a bug. Just because she's statistically weak doesn't mean she should be allowed to have unhealthy interactions in her kit.

but it does seem to imply that there is much more counterplay to her than suggested

Sure, but the topic of discussion has nothing to do with dodging skillshots, it's about a champion being able to cast abilities while having their ability to cast disabled. Your "question" had absolutely zero relevance to the subject matter, and whether you intended it to or not, came across as a disingenuous attempt to dismiss valid criticism.

again, this is the difference between what was suggested and what was actually said. I asked a simple question and I have yet to receive an answer. It doesn't matter if you think i'm disingenuous or not, the attack on the criticism is not a fabrication of my own making. If you didn't like my question you could just ask me to rephrase or ask my why i'm asking it. Instead I was accused of something off the wall and given a bunch of shit talk

Teridax68Dec 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

doesn't matter. The point is that there are already multiple instances where ridiculous things will continue to happen regardless of whether or not you cc the opponent.

Yes it absolutely does it matter, because these functionalities are simply not the same. Again, read what I posted: Lux's CC isn't interrupted because it is simply a long cast animation, and cast animations cannot be interrupted once they are initiated unless you kill the champion. Ezreal does the same thing with his own ult. This is a general rule, not an exception. Zoe being able to cast while silenced, however, is an exception.

{quoted}

abnormal lore abnormal theme abnormal kit type

Again, none of this describes what is "abnormal" about her. What's so abnormal about her lore? What makes her theme abnormal? What about her kit type?

{quoted}

abnormal.. what is even normal about her? Hell we just kindof assume its a 'she' even. She's actually pretty androgynous which is also abnormal

So Zoe should be able to cast spells while CCed... because she's androgynous? I really don't follow.

{quoted}

correct, it is a probably unjustified interaction. It is toxic

Okay, glad we agree on this...

{quoted}

Many things are toxic and it doesn't require justification.. all of which is irrelevant

This I do not agree with at all. The developers don't leave toxic in the game "just because", they either leave it because they personally think there is a justification, or they plan to address it in the future. There is no room whatsoever for unhealthy gameplay in a competitive PvP game.

{quoted}

they'd be more directly related if people didn't try so hard to derail and change the context of my words. When I ask "why can't you dodge" it means I want to know why you can't dodge. If you follow with "I can't dodge because cc stopping abilities is a fundamental law of nature" that conversation is going to get weird

Of course that conversation is going to get weird, because there is no relation between the question you're asking and what is being answered. In this case, dodging an ability is not relevant counterplay when a champion is hard-CCed, and therefore cannot throw out things to dodge, but even if it were, Zoe's projectile is fast enough that if you're within its initial casting range, you're likely to get hit no matter how fast you are.

{quoted}

The first is a dismissal The second is an inquiry

The first is a demeaning suggestion that someone sucks and that orbwalking will fix the now downplayed problem The second is a question meant to be answered in a very simple manner

I don't think so, I think the second statement is merely a dismissal disguised as an inquiry. Framing accusations as a question does not make them any less accusatory, and whether or not you intended this, the question you asked did come off as demeaning, in exactly the way you mentioned.

{quoted}

read the first post

And I quote: "Literally the only counterplay for this fucking ability other than 'dodge it'..."

So the OP did not, in fact, state that disabling Zoe's casts was the only counterplay to the entire champion, or even the ability being discussed, even though reading only the first four words of their post might suggest that. This would also answer your "question" about dodging. Not only is your argument here a straw man, but the above quote shows your interest in dodging here is even less relevant to the conversation, as it has already been answered in the first line of the original post.

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but it does seem to imply that there is much more counterplay to her than suggested

No, it does not. Please listen to what I am telling you. I just explained to you that balance and design are two different things: a champion's win rate and raw statistical strength is balance; their counterplay is a matter of design. You can pick the most toxic champion in the game and nerf them to the ground, and they'll end up having a terrible win rate while still maintaining the same unhealthy gameplay, which is why balance and design are not the same thing, and one cannot be evaluated based on the other. This process of nerfing unhealthy champions is also something that Riot has deliberately applied in several cases, such as Poppy and Urgot pre-VGU, Kalista, Yasuo and Azir, to name but a few.

{quoted}

again, this is the difference between what was suggested and what was actually said. I asked a simple question and I have yet to receive an answer. It doesn't matter if you think i'm disingenuous or not, the attack on the criticism is not a fabrication of my own making. If you didn't like my question you could just ask me to rephrase or ask my why i'm asking it. Instead I was accused of something off the wall and given a bunch of shit talk

You asked an irrelevant question that deserves no answer here, and despite being told this, insist on focusing on it, which derails the original conversation. Intended or not, this falls under an internet trolling tactic known as sealioning, wherein a troll comes into a space to derail it with irrelevant argumentation, pretending to be civil all the way through in an attempt to make their opponent look bad. I recommend you take steps to avoid coming off like this, particularly since your first few comments here were very quickly identified as such by many other players.

At the end of the day, you are not entitled to having your question answered, particularly since in spite of your insistence upon it, you haven't actually justified why your question is relevant to the discussion. I think it is worth asking you why you asked that question, but also why that was also the only thing you talked about in your post: as mentioned by many others here, being able to orbwalk better or dodge outright is irrelevant to a discussion on a champion being able to cast through hard CC.