Neace said it well when he described the game is less about personal skill but more about who sucks

Hibeki··96 votes·7,169 views

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFo7DjS4oso

Lets be honest here. The system is garbage.

Saying that every game just because the numbers add up on a team makes them equal is such a terrible way to go around things.

And let me make crystal clear this is majorly a league-only issue.

I'm master tier in heroes of the storm. You know how often in ranked play games were decided from who was the worst, not who was the best? I could probably count the number of games out of a thousand on one hand.

Player skill is much more prominent in other games, because they are given methods to shine out above the others. Shoving every mechanic onto every champion and buffing everyone and everything to be a massacre comes down to a point where its no longer whos the best, because the enemy can still match your power. It comes down to who's the worst, who CANT use that power.

Every. Single. Game. its a stalemate until 1 or 2 people come out and say 'yeah sorry im trash' and that team loses. This isn't just for my losses either, this is always my wins too. My wins = enemy has trash, my losses = my team has trash 90% of the time. This game is become how you deal with dead weight not how you play the game.

And I can tell you why. Champions dont have identities anymore. Everybody in the game has been givin every mechanic so everyone ultimately does the exact same thing in slightly different ways. Congratulations riot, you buffed everyone to the same level now look what the game has become.

When you take on the motto of 'buff buff buff!' this is what the game becomes. Fights are over in seconds and one mistake means youre fucking dead and the games over.

on the contrary, while 'nerf nerf nerf!' isn't a fantastic motto either, when everything is so weak its more open to player strengths not player weaknesses. Mistakes aren't punished so game endingly as they are now and if someone does get ahead they are only slightly stronger than you are. Still play-around-able.

Matchmaking is the worst part about this. It's just a blind number that adds up to 100 to fill teams.

You got a 10, 10, 30, 20, 30. The enemy got 20, 20, 20, 20, 20. These are equal teams, go duke it out.

Except, they aren't. Two members of the first team are god awful and are going to cost them the game. While sure, they also have 2 really good members, all the enemies being average means they can respond decently and appropriately to the better laners, while the awful ones wont.

Matchmaking enforces a 50% winrate.

Im sorry, but this is true. Patterns in streaks clearly show its forced.

Let me explain something called the Gamblers Fallacy. Gambler's Fallacy is a phrase where someone believes because they have lost a lot, they will win soon. Or that because it landed on red in Roullette, it will land on black soon. Which isn't true, every instance is independant of eachother and the odds of another thing happening do not increase.

Which should be equivalent here. Except its not. Games that are independant of eachother wouldn't show clear patterns.

If you have a long loss streak, you will eventually be met with a win streak once the algorithm determines that you are able too. This is why you see patterns all the fucking time in your history of "7 losses in a row, then 7 wins in a row" within a very short time period.

Even people who are way too high skill level for the elo like boosters (outside of bronze and silver) will still have AT MAX a 60% winrate. Which shows that the system is actively working against you. Either its forcing the games in the enemy teams favor, or the game as a whole is not determined by your skill. Or both.

Which means that your own personal rank means literally nothing. Your skill isn't the primary factor of your games any more. You are no longer the most common denominator. Your rank is referred to 'did I have good teammates or not for X games' and only in extreme minority cases (like QT) its determined by your extreme talent in micro and macro mechanics. And even then, QT still can't win with terrible teammates if the enemy is decent.

So, safe to say, Im quitting this game. Permanently. Im sticking to Hots. Ill wait for this game to die out. As soon as a real competitor comes and the community is fed up, this game will die. Easily.

Oh and just a reminder, if you think Riot actually cares, look at who bought them out. Tencent. You know what other major games they bought out? Games like Candy Crush. Their main concern is forking over every penny and not making a decent game, and if you think Riot is any different, well sorry to disappoint you.

192 Comments

Dope Solo18 votes

This post must be pretty close to 100% spot on target. In games I do well, I still can't carry the dead weight hard enough to even think about winning. 90% of games are a one-way stomp. At beginning ranked levels, the players quit games, go afk or are just outright trolling. The ranked experience is a complete clusterfuck. It will only be a matter of days before Clash is garbage as well.

Elstir2 votes

In games I do well

Yes, it's totally not about your skill if you are B5 with 40% WR overall.

Sõna1 votes

B5 always think they are carrying the game.

Dope Solo1 votes

You've also missed the point of the thread - if carrying = just not trolling/not afk/not the team feeder - then ok. Otherwise being the team alpha or even beta... doesn't translate to wins. That, win/losses aren't determined by an individual players skill - but rather - which team has people on it that suck less. I lost 4 games just last night where people just up and stopped playing, or were feeding faster than anyone else could scale. Or how about, join a ranked game, and 2 of our team members pick champs they've never played before.

If I went 8-7-8, I had teammates that went 0-4-1 (drop troll), 7-10-4, 4-6-3, 6-8-4. If I went 13-5-5 I got back 4-11-9, 6-11-10, 8-10-6, 13-11-7 If I went 3-3-3 I got back 1-11-5, 7-9-2, 2-8-4, 4-5-6. In a bad game, I gave up kills trying to make plays going 2-5-4, the team was 3-1-4,** 1-8-3, 1-10-2**, 3-3-1.

The game has its good matchups on occasion but so far my experience with ranked is that its mostly plastic trash. At least at this level where these people don't even know how to try.

I think there is a very simple solution to this - allow all players to delete 1 loss/week from their MMR to counterbalance the trolls. I'd probably play less ranked overall, but at this point why play at all?

Elstir3 votes

You know what? Keep believe in this; keep believe in how the "Riot system" doesn't let you climb, instead of focus on yourself and your mistakes. I'm sure that you will climb so much faster complaing about "muh team and the matchmaking which force 50% bla bla bla" rather than improve yourself and you skills. I'm sure.

Malcha2 votes

Your account only started in S5, you were bronze for two seasons, silver the season after, and finally gold on this one. You really don't have room to talk down to this guy. We shouldn't be talking down to each other at all, everyone has a valid perspective and valid opinions.

I tend to work up to gold whenever the rewards interest me, and I can honestly agree with this guy. Ranked games suck, getting into gold and playing there was no better. It's not hard to climb to gold, at all, but it never really starts to feel worth the effort beyond the skin.

I do agree that carrying games outside of bot lane is more difficult now. Bot-lane determines too much of the game and if you're a top-lane main. you're relegated to tank/peel for your adc. Mid lane isn't so bad but again if bot gets any kind of a lead, roaming down there is barely an option, because ADC can position to challenge mages in the early game because support mitigation and lockdown is out of control. Being fed outside of botlane ultimately doesn't matter if your botlane fed the enemy team. No matter where you are. This is an issue.

Like, what he's saying isn't wrong. Being bronze doesn't mean you can't be right about the game. Honestly they constantly experience the worst of it 90% of the time, and thus have a fairly valid perspective.

Don't discount people who aren't high-elo solely for that reason. This game isn't just for them.

Elstir3 votes

Please find where did i said he's wrong because he's Bronze. He's wrong because he's saying something wrong, and you know it as much as i do (tell me how you reached Gold last season and try to convice me that it wasn't a matter of skills). The matchmaking is not holding you back. But the more he thinks this "matchmaking theory" is true, the longer he doesn't improve.

Apart from the fact that i'm not "talking him down" (actually i've said he can improve) and this is not about perspective. I am, as you, a proof that this great theory of 50% WR forced is bullshit, or neither me than you would have climbed last season or the previous one. Who believe this and use this as an excuse to say "but muh team hold me back" is wrong. It's not perspective. If you say something wrong, it remains wrong.

Dope Solo1 votes

Then it should be very easy for you to specifically define and characterize winning conditions. Do I need to get A, S or better 9/10 games? Surely this should help, is it enough? If not what is enough? How would you define the conditions that enable your personal performance in game to carry up to 3 slugs, assuming the enemy team is similarly average (which it often isnt, which is likely the precise problem)?

Elstir2 votes

A? S? What the heck are you talking about? How is a mastery flair related to win conditions in a a game? You can carry getting good cs, making smart decisions, having good macro and micro, having a positive attitude, making the right calls, being in the right spot at the right moment, getting cs lead, roaming in the good moment, playing for objective and not for kills, helping your team, having good map awareness, warding in good spot and being in the "game flow", playing champion you are goot at and not a different one every single game; i may go still go on but you got me, i guess.

In shorts you carry if you are better than the opponents you are facing. It's not easy to carry because you need to work on a lot of stuff and play near perfectly. You should know as much as me that any high elo player (NEACE included) always makes climb from Bronze/Silver to Diamond on smurf accounts. How they win that much if the matchmaking force 50% to everyone? Shouldn't they be hardstuck as everyone else? Or maybe (just maybe) you will get 50% WR when you are facing opponents that are EQUALLY skilled AS YOU and so solo carry is harder/impossible?

Dope Solo1 votes

That's just a lot of meaningless platitudes dude. Define "right". And many of those points don't take into account whether or not your 4 teammates are doing these things at all. Yes I said A , S which is a grade on your Personal Skill Level in game, calculated on cs, kda, vision, objectives etc etc etc.. I get what you're saying about smurf climbing. Fine, do I have to be Plat before I climb out of bronze?

ShaolinToilet2 votes

You have to be silver to climb out of bronze. I was the same way as you when I started in bronze. Now I have learned my mistakes and can get gold easily

Ahristocats13 votes

{quoted}

>Matchmaking enforces a 50% winrate.

Im sorry, but this is true. Patterns in streaks clearly show its forced.

https://i.gyazo.com/d85b3529a87386c70d84476d86abe94d.png

k

Hibeki10 votes

Wow! A hundred games? At a volatile part of the ranked season?

What a great time and adequate sample size to support your argument!

Ahristocats6 votes

what kind of shitty argument is that 100 games are insanely high sample LOL, and if you hit challenger and get TO YOUR ELO then of course you wouldn't climb anymore and your win rate would reach sooner or later 50%

and it's not matchmaking's fault lmfao jesus i'm out

Hibeki7 votes

100 games is an insanely LOW sample

Ahristocats3 votes

No it fucking isn't

sample of pro games to balance the game around lcs is nearly 50 games and now you think that 100 games is INSANELY low sample

Ok bro

Hibeki2 votes

Yes and we all know how balancing the game around the lcs is a fantastic idea.

How the fuck is that even a counterpoint

PePsiLemoNN8 votes

Don't even try , it's obviously Riot's great conspiracy to keep everyone at 50% winrate , and you are obviously a Riot employee trying to hide it :^)

Poske3 votes

Sweety you do realise that uhm An Ex challenger is supposed to have fine winrate reaching said challenger... after resset

Now play 1500 games and you ll see a forced winrate ll bring you down a notch despite you improving This is generaly why Chall players rarely have high ammount of games

Starcraft243ver7 votes

There's no forced winrate, once you reached your elo, you will compete with and against people of your own skill, so you will have a 50% chance to win.

I dont even get how you can't seem to understand that : playing against people of your skill level will even out in terms of lose and win.

The whole goal of the matchmaking algorithm is to put you against people your own skill level. To achieved that it looks at your winrate :

To describe unaccurately what the system does : You have 75% winrate vs 1800 mmr ? Let's try to make you play against 1850 mmr, you keep winning ? 1900, 1950, 2000. Ok now winrate is dropping to 55%. Let's go 20 by 20 : 2020, 2040, 2060, 2080, 2100 ... 2160. Ok, now you lost 7 of your last 10 games, maybe your opponents are a bit too strong for you : let's drop to 2100. Still losing a bit too much : 2075

And then the system keeps adjusting your mmr every single game, step by steam it will aim, not at forcing you a 50% winrate, but forcing you to opponents of your skill level, which will enventually lead to a 50% winrate.

The only case in which it will not lead to a 50% winrate is : low number of games, or you improving so fast your skill level keep changing too fast to be tracked accurately by the algorithm.

But your improving will eventually slow down, or you will reach the top of the ladder, and then the problem is different : since the system can't match you against opponents of your skill level because there are not enough gifted peole, you'll probably keep a high winrate (and no the system will not put silver in your team in order to force you back to 50% winrate).

NemeBro10 votes

"League is gonna die, I'm sticking to HotS."

goes to look at how the games are doing on Twitch League has 61,000+ viewers HotS has a whopping 4,222

lul

sarii fox39 votes

He has a point, though. He's not saying HotS will win over LoL. He's saying that once there is an actual MOBA competitor for League (that matches League's level of "gameplay" and art) League will very likely die out.

NemeBro9 votes

[{quoted}](name=sarii fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xR6eJvig,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-02-19T03:19:08.799+0000)

He has a point, though.

No he doesn't. He has his emotions and feelings.

Show me some statistics that prove that interest in League is dying. Show me that its active playerbase is significantly lower. If you can't, all you have is your own biased feelings on the game.

sarii fox24 votes

It's not dying. It's growing. That's because there isn't any competition for the game, but once/if there is, league WOULD "die out"

(...it's HYPOTHETICAL...that's why there are no statistics)

NemeBro6 votes

[{quoted}](name=sarii fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xR6eJvig,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-19T03:44:20.301+0000)

It's not dying. It's growing. That's because there isn't any competition for the game, but once/if there is, league WOULD "die out"

(...it's HYPOTHETICAL...that's why there are no statistics)

Making a hypothetical statement with nothing concrete backing it is not indicative of their being a legitimate point being made. It's purely baseless speculation then.

Which is fine. But you literally said he had a point, when no, not really, he didn't. Sorry not sorry, but you're 100% wrong here.

sarii fox18 votes

Lol you're really going to knit pick about me saying "he's got a point" to that degree? Emotional "points" are not invalid just because there isn't any standing evidence. His "point" makes you think about the game, that's what's important. Not whether the "point" is true or not in the first place.

NemeBro4 votes

[{quoted}](name=sarii fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xR6eJvig,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-19T04:17:20.519+0000)

Lol you're really going to knit pick about me saying "he's got a point" to that degree? Emotional "points" are not invalid just because there isn't any standing evidence. His "point" makes you think about the game, that's what's important. Not whether the "point" is true or not in the first place.

They are neither valid nor invalid. They are nothing, which is the point. Some would say the only point.

GôdÌy2 votes

you're the type of dude to say "intuition is useless. If there isn't concrete proof then its false." hold this L buddy, have fun in life with that attitude

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

you're the type of dude to say "intuition is useless. If there isn't concrete proof then its false." hold this L buddy, have fun in life with that attitude

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings (I'm assuming you feel the same way OP does) by not accepting them as valid evidence. I'm sure your fee fees are special and valuable, and you have a tender heart.

GôdÌy3 votes

Textbook projection lul

Gorantharon5 votes

There have been a LOT of other mobas over the years.

Not one has managed to dethrone LoL.

It's WoW all over again, no matter how much the game might decline the game will continue on until the whole genre loses the audience's interest and it'll probably be the most popular till that end.

Paintchip7 votes

HoTS might beat it eventually. I like the shorter matches, diversity in champs and changing maps.

HoTS champions have more individuality due to not having to build around the same items as everyone else. It also allows for better balance because they can tatget an ondividual ability without it affrcting the 100+ other champs that use it. You have to remember, these are the guys that made WoW. Blizzard does know a thing or two about making games.

The issue that they are having is numbers. The problem is they started too casual and they have to get rid of that stigma. There is actually alot more skill in that game than league. Alot more of that game requires team fighting and team work. You also need to be aware of what map you are on when picking champ.

Oh, and back to the shorter matches. It is that way because it was designed that way. I have rarely seen a snowball in that game.

P.S. And in HoTS, you can always come back from being behind, unlije league.

Gorantharon5 votes

Theoretically anything can happen, but HoTS is unlikely now.

Unless you count LoL losing enough to players to fall behind, but Blizz mishandled too much to salvage it now on their own.

DracosKasu4 votes

The truth is the game will be remplace by the new game style, league will die out from it. Look at the rise of fornite and the decline of LoL. Every game style will die at some point.

Doozku3 votes

Jeez this comment reminds me of when everyone said that Overwatch was gonna kill league.

DracosKasu3 votes

I dont say that fornite will kill LoL but the esport scene have more to offer these day which result to a lower playbase overall. WoW never get beat but is community became lower with time with the amount of online gaming increases.

Doozku2 votes

Sure, but Fortnite/PUBG is a bad example of this. Battle Royale games are bad esports because they rely too much on RNG.

Saianna1 votes

You say that interest in LoL isn't dying yet from the POV of the guy who's on this boards since at very least 5 years I see HUGE and steady player interest drop.

Not that it's definitely a sign or anything, but 4 years ago even silly shitpost could have achieved 500 post traffic, not to mention proper discussion threads breaking past 2k upvotes on daily basis.

Now? It's a miracle if that gets past 30-60 likes.


Also instead using "prove me wrong by showing statistics" shitty argument, how about YOU prove them wrong with statistics you'd dig out? Small spoiler: Riot would NEVER EVER share statistics showing the interest in their game dies. So good look finding them.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

You say that interest in LoL isn't dying yet from the POV of the guy who's on this boards

Almost stopped reading here, but caught something really stupid you said afterward that I'm choosing to address.

Also instead using "prove me wrong by showing statistics" shitty argument, how about YOU prove them wrong with statistics you'd dig out?

Sorry my friend, but this isn't how this works.

The burden of proof falls on the person who asserted a position. OP asserted a position and has yet to provide any tangible evidence at all. I've asserted no position contrary toward it, just exposing his claim for the speculation it is.

I'd recommend getting a college education my friend.

Saianna2 votes

Almost stopped reading here

Believe me, each of your comments on this thread caused me the very same feeling. I did read it for lols though :)

but this isn't how this works.

It sure is. Not like there's some cosmic law forbidding you from showing hard facts. Unless you know your opinion isn't worth crap and you try to vaguely defend yourself.

I'd recommend getting a college education my friend.

And this one is just... LeL. What the fuck.. I just can't.. :D

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Unless you know your opinion

What opinion? I've made no hard claims on how League is doing right now or how it might be doing in the near future, which is why no burden of proof is on my shoulders. Do you understand the difference? Are you even capable of it? =)

Saianna2 votes

Don't be so snappy just because people downvoted your posts cause what you said was stupid or wrong. Anyways, not gonna read your ego-inflated posts anymore :) Have fun or something.

Btw I know you try to sound smart and whatnot but... Those just look weak as if you try to prove something to those who might read your posts. It looks weak and sad at best :)

sarii fox5 votes

I think this is true to a degree, but that doesn't mean that the game isn't fun and I should stop trying to be good. I think there are cases where you can carry your weak link but, especially this season, that is extremely hard to do and is usually based on one teamfight which is incredibly stupid and annoying.

But you have a valid point. When I win games it rarely feels like I won because I am a good player. It feels like I win because the other team is bad.

Ratpie8 votes

Agreed. I have closer games playing ARAM, and that is just sad. Just played a game where we lost because Support playing cow just ran around the map while adc gets slaughtered in lane, claiming he has to support all lanes or we will lose.....this was in the early game.....Then I play a game where the other team has a Kayle that gets 33 deaths........wtf? I do not see these type of games as fun.

Hibeki3 votes

I have to say another thing as well

A testament to how this game is, people are very vocal about how bad it is. This game is massively popular in asian countries that dont use american/english platforms like Reddit/Boards (China does not have)

Riot says were the vocal minority, but technically were the vocal majority. The only people satisfied with the game through their 'surveys' are not their target players or prime audience for the game, they just use that information because they can cherry pick it.

This dissatisfaction shows this game is dying. It's growing due to being big name and really only being competitive against DOTA, which long outlived its time.

When a new competitor pops up, you can bet that the majority of none asian regions are going to mass migrate to that game. And if it remains a good game, it will stay that way.

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

Riot says were the vocal minority, but technically were the vocal majority.

No, you still have no proof for that

Hibeki1 votes

How much do you want to bet that 90% of leagues player allocation is, once again, in asian countries that don't have reddit.

I would think that, at max, theres 2 or 3 million players in the EU + NA servers combined, and the subreddit alone has over a million followers.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

I'm not going to bet anything. I would like to see stats, to actually prove it.

Hibeki1 votes

Yeah well riot doesnt release those stats so for now youll have to actually use your noggin for once.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

By...guessing. By making up 'facts' that fit my opinion. When you have no proof to back it up.

:thinking:

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