Removal of macro play is actually killing this game.

Hibeki··100 votes·7,677 views

This game is removing macro play from everything from skillshots to damage output, to constant AOE. What used to require some amount of player skill (Not champion skill) to use a character to great potential no longer does. mechanics put into the game either remove or extremely baby the things that actually required some forethought.

#1) Have no AOE or waveclear? Buy some.

What used to require forethought of 'how do i push this wave?' 'how will my team defend from this pushed wave' is basically gone. Purchasable AOE on every single class has basically negated the need of "X person should recall because they have good waveclear", now EVERYONE does.

Single target marksman? Buy statik shiv.

Single target assassin? Buy tiamat

Single target or high cooldown mage? Buy a hextech item or echo.

Tank? Buy sunfire cape or Iceborn gauntlet

Support? Redemption cooldown fairly low with all the new stuff and general high damage and aoe cc will cover a wave.

This level of macro play is totally gone. Every champion in the game now either has aoe waveclear or can purchase it. Pushing a wave then roaming or recalling has devolved into whether they will be there to collect it, and fighting with a shoved wave has devolved to whether or not an enemy will recall to clear it.

I can no longer plan a fight thinking "Either they will lose top inhibitor turret, or we will get to have a fight without the enemy Anivia." This level of play is gone.

#2) Skillshots are now either extremely minimal or aided by things to help hit them

With a few key exceptions (Mostly outdated kits like Ezreal ) Every single person in the game that has a skillshot in the kit has either tools to help land it, or mechanics to help reduce the missing factor.

Zoe Fat hitbox, extremely fast missile speed and AOE to hit behind creeps with low cooldown, aided by a cc in her kit (Which also has similar factors) Jayce Fat hitbox, extremely fast missile speed and AOE to hit behind creeps Gnar Low cooldown, relatively large hitbox, hiding behind creeps has a medium impact. Caitlyn Traps to root and E to slow (Which combos into a mechanic that shouldnt be in the game in the first place), hiding behind creeps only reduces damage Jhin deceptive hitbox, slows from traps combo into easier W hit and a full trap hit, hiding behind creeps does nothing Kled dash to get in range and keep them in range, hiding behind creeps does nothing LeeSin low cooldown, 3 abilities to manipulate how you hit them, hiding behind creeps has minimal impact Leona Ult stun to keep them in place, hiding behind creeps does nothing Ahri Charm, medium hitbox, hiding behind creeps does nothing DrMundo Low cooldown Ekko If you would even call it a skillshot, large frontal aoe and slow on the ability, hiding behind creeps does nothing Illaoi Fat hitbox, but not nearly as bad as the other skillshots in the game.

And this list goes on. Practically ever skillshot has other factors that baby whether you will hit it or not. Hiding behind creeps no longer does anything because most of them double as waveclear, or just go through creeps entirely.

This fucking sucks. Usually this is major parts of the kit and removes potential outplay from the opponent. Something that usually required a decent amount of player skill to be effective gets babied to the point where it no longer does while simultaneously removing agency from the opponent

#3) Enemies dont need to capitalize on mistakes to still take advantage of them

Increased death timers, increased damage towards turrets, and overall snowball mechanics of games lead to where people don't even need to do ANYTHING to still reap extra rewards from enemy mistakes.

Lets say, I kill my opponent but i'm low in lane. I kill one creep, and back to base. The wave is now pushing towards the enemy turret, denying the enemy gold. Creeps are doing extra damage to turrets, the longer death timer means an enemy cant come back to lane to reduce that lead or take action before I come back.

Despite doing LITERALLY NOTHING, I still reaped a ton of rewards for my enemy's mistake. I did extra damage to their turret. I denied them gold. They are off the map longer. These add up, a lot.

#4) Normally high skill cap classes are no longer difficult to play, and despite playing or building them poorly other factors still lead to them being effective.

ADC used to be one of the hardest classes to play in the game. Balancing harass and last hitting in the laning phase, positioning, orb walking, and intense macro play used to be required to play the class well.

Now they get babied. More gold in lane means they become effective faster. Higher power in an RNG effect makes misplays less hurting if you get lucky. Supports gaining extremely more baby factors (Tons of shields, healing, and peeling) means even if an enemy adc walks headfirst into an enemy team, they can still survive.

The hardest class in the game has become a class that has the entire game revolve around it because of its influence, not only that, you've made it so piss easy to play the class that actual player skill matters nearly nothing (Except when against an adc that DOES have player skill) which just turns this game into a disaster.

Might I add this is entirely unique to league of legends. League of Legends is the only moba to have a single class have the biggest impact on a game by a skyrocketed lead AND have an entire class devoted to them. Smite, Dota 2, and HOTS all have supports, but they are primarily focused on supporting their team primarily and the carries secondary. League is the only game where an entire class is focused on supporting their adc primarily and their team secondary. Because crit has THAT much impact on the game.

While having player skill is important and is down to who is the best adc, the class has so much shit pushed towards them that even if they are piss poor at the game you still cant leave them alive in case they get lucky or annihilate your team. Once again agency is taken away from the players, and towards the adc's.

Jungler timers, overall buffed camps, and detecting enemy buffs respawning has devolved the jungle role into a 'who can gank bot lane most' because every other skill factor has been removed.

Me taking time to ward the enemy jungle to know when his buff will be up has been removed.

Me knowing when my camps respawn has been removed

Me having efficient pathing because camps used to have different impacts depending on who you play, has been removed.

Almost all of the player skill has been removed from the jungle class. The second most influential class in the game has devolved to 'take 2 buffs and one camp and go top lane, then camp bot'. That's it.

#5) More champions are becoming more and more effective in trading in damage meta, with rune pages that tack on free damage to everything.

Playing an in-date champion is more important then ever. Champions are being released and updated to be so powerful in trades that if you are even slightly disadvantaged you get crushed from the sheer damage on everything.

Zoe is a great example.

Double passive proc gives your auto attacks 3 buffs (not counting item 3057 ) which can almost outtrade out of date champions by itself if you miss everything else.

Baby factors make the counterplay less and less effective and making trading power an extreme, which puts that players influence over the game significantly higher than other players with less potent trading.

In conclusion: The overall lack of agency in this game has devolved the laning phase into 'who's champion trades better' and the rest of it into 'kill bot lane and keep yours alive'

96 Comments

Śhunpo42 votes

Yep. Everything here is true.

For point 4) I'd like to add my perspective as an assassin player. Similar to the ADC class the assassin class has also become far far easier, however, unlike the ADC class we do not have the entire team revolve around us. In fact, due to how inconsistent assassins are now we're almost 1v9ing a lot of the time....and a lot of the time it works since the new runes provide far too much free damage for simply doing our job and this item exists. item 3147

Additionally, Riot removed any major mechanical skill from a majority of the assassins, replacing it with one go-to combo that is leagues better than every other combo. E.g. Talon used to have like 4 variations of his combo, now he only has one major combo and one niche combo. Combos as a whole just aren't as difficult or diverse than before the assassin update.

Although, more to the point, assassins are just rewarded for doing their job, and honestly it's less your skill playing them and more how quickly you reach your one item powerspike, abuse it and your opponent slipping up. Even if a guy goes 0/5 in Bronze V as an assassin such as Talon he'll probably end up being 12/5 simply because Duskblade and lethality exist and the new runes pretty much do everything for you.


As for macro play....why worry about spending mana when there's literally a rune that makes your spell(s) free every minute or so, why worry about sustaining yourself when you can just build to accommodate that directly in runes, why worry about dying multiple times when you can just make a comeback with your one item powerspike?

Or...the best meme of all, why worry about farming and playing the game in a healthy way when you can just make gold off of one rune?

The game simply doesn't reward good players as much as any of the other seasons, since this season seems to be intent of making the game as easy and accessible as possible, which is a good business plan but horrible for the balance and feel of this game.


In terms of point 3) let me give you a rundown of how that applies to the jungle. You make someone die once early, and you pretty much take one entire side of their jungle, back, your opponent walks to that side of the jungle to check and they lose an enormous amount of EXP. Like....the sheer reward you get just from one early kill is obnoxious, especially if you're playing someone like Kha'zix, Kayn, Elise or Kindred who are just unforgiving if you ever fall behind to them.

Or, even better, you kill your enemy jungler/watch them get killed and you give constant pressure to your other lanes. If you do that there's no proper response your opponent has and the game is pretty much over if you're even semi-successful with your ganks.


It also saddens me that the game is like this now. Hopefully Riot will tend to these issues....

Divine Thighs16 votes
  1. As a former Talon main I agree, the new Talon is way to easy. All of the wall jumps make it so that you don't have to position well outside of the lanes since you can wall jump everywhere. He is also pigeon holed into roaming now and roaming top lane is pointless. This means he has to go bot and contribute to the party bot meta.

  2. Without his blink he can't really hop on a ranged mid laner. He is forced to shove the lane and roam bot. The removal of his blink also removes the thought required when engaging. Deciding when to go in was so much more crucial. People now just pop ghost-blade to run in then wall hop out.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Without his blink he can't really hop on a ranged mid laner.

GOOD

Divine Thighs1 votes

Good for a ranged mid laner. Bad for bot lane. If he can't assassinate his laner who will he go after? That sexy squishy bot lane.

Arakadia2 votes

Correct me if I'm wrong, but old Talon's combo was not difficult at all. He was more about macro right?

Divine Thighs1 votes

His base combo was very easy, but he had combos involving item 3077 that allowed you to shave off burst time. A good Talon could kill people as fast as a good pre-rework Rengar. Him and Rengar actually had the fastest combos if done correctly since you could animation cancel the w and ult at the same time.

MrPhamtom2 votes

look man, it's not that I don't agree with you, but old talon's instant burst you down was kind of toxic design with very little counter play on the victim and relied on your teammates, which is both good and bad.

New Talon adds more counterplay, but the amount of mechanics is the same.

But changing his design isn't an excuse at all, especially when dogshit trash design like Wukong, Volibear, Riven, and Yasuo exist.

TehNACHO1 votes

since this season seems to be intent of making the game as easy and accessible as possible, which is a good business plan but horrible for the balance and feel of this game.

Honestly reading this out loud, this sounds like a terrible business plan.

Obviously, Riot is faaaaaaar beyond its days as a small business but making this game accessible to everyone sounds like a good way to spread the company's reach too thin and leave the F2P whales both untargeted and disappointed. Targetted markets make or break businesses and while it does make sense for a F2P Moba to invite as many people as possible (other people are literally the content of this game), unless League of Legend's economic ecosystem is way more balanced than it is based on whales, this sounds like a good way to start losing those high paying players if they get shafted in the attempt to appeal to newer players.

Śhunpo2 votes

It does sound like a terrible business plan. But from Riot's POV more players = more money, since having sheer numbers will entice even more new players who will spend money on the game, and the cycle will repeat.

However, what they forgot about almost entirely, or they're not being effort into doing is catering to the veteran players who have stuck with this game for X number of seasons. To be blunt about it, more new players join than veteran players leave, at least for now. Even if all the veteran players boycott LoL it still won't die simply because people are joining at a frightening rate.

Bârd32 votes

I don't think you know what macro is.

  1. Have no AOE or waveclear? Buy some.

Most of the things here are accurate... most of them.

If you're using redemption, a major teamfight CD, to deal minor damage to a minion wave, you're doing something wrong.

  1. Skillshots are now either extremely minimal or aided by things to help hit them

...uh huh.

"hitbox size" is not a tool to land a skillshot. If you can't dodge, it's your own damn fault, stop blaming the game.

"low CD" is not a tool to land a skillshot. Dodge and keep dodging.

As for CC's to line up skill shots... you realize those are usually also skill shots, right? Ahri relies on Charm to land her other abilities, and charm doesn't help her land charm.

Also, this has nothing to do with macro play. Dodging and aiming is decidedly closer to the micro level.

  1. Enemies dont need to capitalize on mistakes to still take advantage of them

Yeah, no.

In the situation described, you didn't do nothing. In fact, you failed horribly at managing your wave. Killing "one minion" would start a slow push. At best, you denied them most of those minions. At worst, you set them up to freeze the wave outside their tower, which denies YOU cs.

You would have failed to capitalize, yes. As a result, you failed to deny them farm.

If you played it intelligently, you would've shoved the wave in hard, guaranteeing that the CS was denied and resetting for when you both got back to lane.

The enemy laner has the option to TP in (if they have it) to save the CS, at the cost of not having it for ganks. The jungler has to option to gank you while you shove, likely half HP and out of CD's.

Capitalizing and macro is very much a thing here.

  1. Normally high skill cap classes are no longer difficult to play, and despite playing or building them poorly other factors still lead to them being effective.

ADC's don't get more gold than they used to, barring the bullshit that is Kleptomancy (which is limited to a couple adc's). Avarice blade gave more than Cull, and was much more viable.

Wait... did you just say "ADC used to be hard. Now skill doesn't matter, unless they're better". BOY.

I am a Dota player, and you're half right. There are two supports per team in that game. In every match, at least one is as dedicated to their carry as league supports are to their ADC.

If you're running two lane supports, one support is dedicated to keeping the carry alive, getting them farm, and zoning the enemy. The other is helping your team's off-laner survive and tries to shut down the enemy carry, ganking mid on occasion.

If you have a roaming support or jungler, you have one champion as the "teams support". You also still have the babysitter doing all they can to get their carry to their powerspike.

If you have a trilane, both supports are dedicated to the carry.

Moving on... if you ignore a carry, it's your own damn fault if they kill you. You also said "taking agency away from players and giving it to the adc". News flash: the carry is a player, and in the late game, they're your MVP.

Jungle timers didn't remove shit. If you can't adapt, that's your own problem. If you honestly believe player skill is irrelevant in either ADC or jungle, you're an idiot.

  1. More champions are becoming more and more effective in trading in damage meta, with rune pages that tack on free damage to everything.

TRADING IN LANE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MACRO

In conclusion: you only know how to use buzzwords, and not how to make an actual point. It's like reading a league of legends post on /r/SubredditSimulator.

Oakleaf Ranger3 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you know what macro is.

Most of the things here are accurate... most of them.

If you're using redemption, a major teamfight CD, to deal minor damage to a minion wave, you're doing something wrong.

...uh huh.

"hitbox size" is not a tool to land a skillshot. If you can't dodge, it's your own damn fault, stop blaming the game.

"low CD" is not a tool to land a skillshot. Dodge and keep dodging.

As for CC's to line up skill shots... you realize those are usually also skill shots, right? Ahri relies on Charm to land her other abilities, and charm doesn't help her land charm.

Also, this has nothing to do with macro play. Dodging and aiming is decidedly closer to the micro level.

Yeah, no.

In the situation described, you didn't do nothing. In fact, you failed horribly at managing your wave. Killing "one minion" would start a slow push. At best, you denied them most of those minions. At worst, you set them up to freeze the wave outside their tower, which denies YOU cs.

You would have failed to capitalize, yes. As a result, you failed to deny them farm.

If you played it intelligently, you would've shoved the wave in hard, guaranteeing that the CS was denied and resetting for when you both got back to lane.

The enemy laner has the option to TP in (if they have it) to save the CS, at the cost of not having it for ganks. The jungler has to option to gank you while you shove, likely half HP and out of CD's.

Capitalizing and macro is very much a thing here.

ADC's don't get more gold than they used to, barring the bullshit that is Kleptomancy (which is limited to a couple adc's). Avarice blade gave more than Cull, and was much more viable.

Wait... did you just say "ADC used to be hard. Now skill doesn't matter, unless they're better". BOY.

I am a Dota player, and you're half right. There are two supports per team in that game. In every match, at least one is as dedicated to their carry as league supports are to their ADC.

If you're running two lane supports, one support is dedicated to keeping the carry alive, getting them farm, and zoning the enemy. The other is helping your team's off-laner survive and tries to shut down the enemy carry, ganking mid on occasion.

If you have a roaming support or jungler, you have one champion as the "teams support". You also still have the babysitter doing all they can to get their carry to their powerspike.

If you have a trilane, both supports are dedicated to the carry.

Moving on... if you ignore a carry, it's your own damn fault if they kill you. You also said "taking agency away from players and giving it to the adc". News flash: the carry is a player, and in the late game, they're your MVP.

Jungle timers didn't remove shit. If you can't adapt, that's your own problem. If you honestly believe player skill is irrelevant in either ADC or jungle, you're an idiot.

TRADING IN LANE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MACRO

In conclusion: you only know how to use buzzwords, and not how to make an actual point. It's like reading a league of legends post on /r/SubredditSimulator.

Thank god someone else here has a brain.

Yes shiv and hurricane add waveclear but the tradeoff is weaker teamfighting and dueling potential. (Hurricane users can get around the teamfighting trade off though if they have synergy with a champions on hit effects/kit). Buying waveclear isnt some op strat that cant end up backfiring on you.

For all that free damage in runes this person forgets to mention that going mana band your giving up some of that "op" damage or utility runes.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Yes shiv and hurricane add waveclear but the tradeoff is weaker teamfighting and dueling potential.

Have you seen Shiv burst?

Ahristocats4 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you know what macro is.

i was wondering about the same

how is skillshot related to macro?

wat....

muted team chat5 votes

Thanks for saving m,e the time of typing this response.

OP has no idea what macro is.

Iffy Jarl2 votes

Thank you so much for writing this based on the upvotes and the first few replies I was legit pondering whether or not writing out all of this was worth the backlash,

I was already at my limit when he suggested taking redemption for waveclear

SpecterVonBaren17 votes

Mana costs need to matter again. When was the last time you saw a thread of someone complaining about one of the energy or manaless champions not needing to worry about running out of their resource? And isn't it telling that of all the new champs released in the last two years, only Ornn had any kind of mana management needs? What about item 3070? The only AD champion that builds it anymore is Ezreal. Missing spells needs to be more punishing than just meaning there's a couple seconds where the enemy isn't going to use the ability again.

JPLangley2 votes

[deleted]

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

Only one in there I outright disagree with is Trundle, it's actually surprising how much mana he can go through.

Bârd10 votes

Out of the above champions, the following either build a mana item or have mana issues.

Ashe item 3508 Corki item 3078 Darius minor mana issues. He's usually OOM after a couple ults in a fight. Diana item 1402 item 3100 Ekko item 1402 item 3165 item 3100 item 3025 Elise item 1402 Evelynn item 1402 Gragas item 1402 item 3025 item 3165 item 3027 item 3100 Hecarim item 3078 severe issues in lanes Illaoi item 3078 item 3025 severe issues pre-sheen. Irelia item 3078 Ivern item 1039 item 3107 item 3174 item 3504 Jayce item 3004 (that is, if he wants to be able to kill tanks or participate in a long siege) Jhin item 3508 Katarina I thought you said you weren't including resourceless champions? Kayn if you're laning as him, you're gonna have mana issues. Khazix has mana issues if he goes too long without going to base or taking blue. Hops and spikes cost a bit. Olaf item 3800 You listed him twice. Ornn item 3001 item 3025 You listed him twice. Leona item 3800 Lucian item 3508 Lulu item 3107 item 3504 item 3174 Maokai item 3110 item 3001 item 3800 MissFortune item 3092 Nasus item 3078 item 3025 item 3800 Nautilus item 3025 item 3800 Pantheon his mana pool is his main weakness in the laning phase. Poppy item 3025 Rakan item 3107 item 3504 Rammus item 3800 Shaco item 1402 (depending) Singed item 3003 item 3027 item 3001 item 3800 Sion item 3110 Taric item 3025 item 3110 item 3504 item 3107 Trundle item 3078 Udyr item 3078 item 3110 item 3025 hell I'm pretty sure he's built almost every item. Remember Innervating Locket? Varus item 3042 in the days of yore Vi item 3078 Volibear item 3800 Xayah item 3508 XinZhao item 3078 Yorick item 3078 item 3110 item 3800

TTK Dreadnought1 votes

Illaoi item 3078 item 3025 severe issues pre-sheen.

As an Illaoi main, i have to say. i rarely have mana issues. i've put time into mana-management, but even before that they shouldnt be spamming your abilities as often as i am thinking people might be.

I have more mana issues with Urgot due to either poking with Q in some matchups or if you do multiple fights in a row. item 3800 . I've thought about trying item 3004 item 3042 on new-urgot but the games end so quickly now i actually cant finish stacking it.

Bârd2 votes

Her mana costs aren't very high, but they're all pretty spammable and Illaoi doesn't have a very big mana pool. It doesn't help that she has to use her spells to trade.

Urgot is a similar case, but the difference is that his passive allows him to trade decently without using mana. He also doesn't have an upkeep cost on the level of Illaoi's R empowered W spam.

Don't buy Muramana. He's slow to stack it, and his W cuts the damage to a third without cutting the mana cost.

JarodDempsey6 votes

1: not an issue in the least. Waveclear is a mechanic needed by everyone except supports and junglers, being able to buy a little allows for greater role diversity and is beneficial tothe game. Also saying redemption is supports' waveclear shows how flimsy your argument is, no one would use redemption to clear a wave unless it was pushing on a nexus turret and all of your dps was dead.

2: The reason so many skill shots are easier compared to how they used to be is because they replaced many abilities that used to be point and click, the level of difficulty in the bottom half of league has increased more than the difficulty in the top half has decreased. Also a lot of your examples are simply synergy which is how kits work. Without it theyd just be random abilities mentioning it further weakens your argument.

3: Death timers are too short in early game but too long in late game. The primary problem here is relative uselessness of turrets, currently they provide almost no defensive utility unless youre a tank because they kill enemies so slowly. In late game they are equally as bad but mostly because theyre so easy to kill.

4: Adc is in no way easier than it was before, if anything it's harder because of how reliant the game become on damage which means not only do you as the adc need to pump more out but you need to play better just to survive the same amount of time due to being squishy af. All of your credability is lost when you disparage enchanter supports who right now are one of the weakest classes outside of babysitting an adc. Also, jungle skill has no dropped at all. Back in S3 you could start anywhere you wanted and do basically anything, now you have to maximize, your patterns, pace, clears, and ganks otherwise your team will fall behind. In past seasons jungle could just farm until like lvl 11 and have no negative effects on team, I'm not even going to discuss the huge increase in counterjungle play and its implications compared to past years.

5: while using the exception as an example doesnt further your argument, i will agree with you on this point in the more general sense that damage has increased in importance beyond reasonability

in general your rant is purposeless aside from point 5. If anything league has become overly complicated not more simple, riot hasnt catered to baby play its given (and essentially required) too many options allowing for too large an imbalance between certain playing habits for many to be successful, not just simply made stuff easier.

Raven Redeemed6 votes

First off let me commend you for a well thought out post. You clearly put a lot of effort into it. Let me go through and comment on your points if I may.

1-Items: I am very surprised you think items reduce macro. I think they do the exact opposite. If you are a single target assassin who bought Tiamat for wave-clear, you just made a true macro decision because you thought of the future and decided what you want to do (wave-clear). You also decided to forgo the power gained from items geared to assassinations. Deciding who to send to wave clear is more a reactionary decision than a macro decision. When I was playing in S2 and S3 Tiamat was core was core on Talon because there were no true assassin items and very few choice to make when buying items. Supports had to by gold gen items and wards, maybe one of the few aura items if they had the money. With the number of items now available to each class you now can make macro decisions on what you want to buy (for what you want to do in the future) and what you will forgo.

2-Skill Shots: Skill shots are reliable or can be made reliable because it just makes sense to have some reliability in a champ's kit if they also have some unreliability (skill shots). If that were not the case no one would pick champs with skill shots because good players would always out play everything you do thus making your champ useless. That being said, champs of the past were way too reliable. Almost everything was point click and it sucked because you would just pick the best stat-stick or lose the game. Veigar, for example, had to have a delay put on his E (skill shot reliability tool) because there was little counter play.

I'd say hiding behind minion is more reactionary than macro. Maybe you can't hide behind minions as much, but there are way more decisions that can be made when approaching/avoiding a trade now that there is actually counter play to champion kits.

3-Snowball Mechanics: I don't think there was any more macro in the past. If you died and revived in time you go back to lane to defend, just like it has always been. Faster gold, longer death timers, and weaker tower may increase snowball but I don't think it decrease the maco decision you make. In fact I'd say there are more macro decisions since the addition of RH, elder drake, different elemental drakes, and shorter jungle camp respawn times.

That being said I would agree that shorter games decreases the time to make macro decisions. I would say that currently games are probably too short/snowbally. Longer games also sucked too play though. When towers were stronger you would just turtle if you were losing, watch as the enemy took every once of gold from objectives, and pray they would mess up before they whittled their way to your inhibs. I think there is a happy medium to be had.

4-Class difficulty: I agree that jungle is quite a bit easier now. It's cool that you can have several different clears paths now and that more champs can jungle, but I do miss the impact that counter jungling had (to some degree). That being said jungling in that past was extremely punishing if you messed up and/or the enemy was better and punished you (counter-jungled) because of it. I don't mind if the jungle has a high skill cap, but I do think it's good to keep the skill floor low as it is one of only five positions available.

(Unorganized but pertinent thoughts incoming) I personally don't think adc's are way more powerful than any class (they are if you consider the adc as the adc and support of course) but I know that is an unpopular opinion on the boards. I do think they have gotten stronger (and may be too strong) and I think that is mostly due to the introduction of actual supports and support items. They have supports not because they are powerful, but because they need the most gold, are the squishiest, have the worst CC/escapes, and need time to deal damage. I don't think they will ever be non-meta because they are the only ones who can take objectives quickly (unless Riot makes it so other classes can do so as well). As you said some adc players can be more skilled can carry which means that it has a high skill cap, but as I said earlier I don't it is bad to have a low skill floor on an entire class. I'm not sure how your thoughts on adc pertained to macro play vs micro play. It could be harder to kill them if they overextend with support or something? I think their macro is largely unchanged. They farm what they can safely, stick with teammates with an appropriate amount of teammates when they would otherwise be unsafe, and take objectives.

5-Damage I'm not sure what you point is pertaining to macro play. You have to pick an in-date champ to trade? I'd disagree with that. I'd say almost every champ is viable in almost every elo which I could not say in the past because some old champs had to be kept weak because their kit truly had no counter play (Trist's old E for example). Reworks have provided these champs with tuning levers and counter play so that they can be balanced. It's funny that you would pick Zoe as an example. I think she has more counter play than usual (she's just annoying to deal with). As I said earlier every champ needs some reliability and Zoe's comes from her passive. Reliable damage but at the cost of her being in aa range for every use. Other than that her kit has tons of counter play (doge/hide behind minions for her Q and E, several thing like hourglass if you do get hit by E, don't drop things for her W or zone her from picking them up, attack her where you know where she will be during her ult animation, etc.) If she didn't have counter play her winrate would be much higher than the 5th worst of nearly 140 champs by now (unless she is just weak).

I agree that there does seem to be some damage creep, probably too much for early game at least. I think it's less due to runes (which seem about as powerful as old runes and masteries) and more due to the loss of armor and mr for everyone, at least for the preseason. That being said, I'd say runes have provided an absurd amount of new macro play. Want to gank every lane to get your Legend stacks or just focus on bot? Want to take Arey for a more damage focused Rakan or Aftershock for a more tanky playstyle? etc.

Those are my thoughts at least. Sorry it's kind of long.

Poske2 votes

I would like to make few points

Items are completly macro based OP is a lil lost XD. Buying aoe tiamat like items offsets your damage unless your champion likes animation cancels

Granted itemization choises suck, People get constantly baited into bad stuff. Oh I am playing veigar passive synergizer with rabadon maybe I shold get it and then your nexus explodes because you are bad player who builds rabdon veigar. OR people thinking that armguard is a good rush vs Zed XD

Sadly runes give as much alteration as Much more important itemization which is slightly crazy. This has been the case for a while now

  • AD carries have good itemization choises
  • Mages build Nomcion>Voidstaff/guise>guise/voidstaf or they always build the same -Tanky champions > It really doesnt matter what you build you ll melt reggardless if you dont have %dmg reduction like ability / can abuse stoneplate

Katarina for example should always buy Gunblade>Void/guise>Guise/void > banshee/zhonya most decisions we can make is to sometimes build banshee/zhonya a lil earlier

Le blanc also has a fixed core build of item 3145 (fuse in proto later on)item 3100 item 3285 item 3135. I can only build situationaly after those #1 lb world dont even dare questioning this. Rofl hastag gives gold letters really?

Mana users like Ryze/kassadin/Anivia/sometimes karthus > always follow a same pattern of tear>rod>other mana stuff and voidstaff I guess they can get GLP if they get extremly far behind but this wont happen to high elo players often, and low elo plyers wont think of that

Ryze can alter quite high with item 3001 item 3110 item 3025 others cant really get away with such items. Maybe anivia can get item 3001 So yeah Ryze has good itemization choises better then he ever had and his build requires quite a macro, I cant say the same about any AP mid

Skillshots are problematic but nothing to do with what OP talked about

  • There are to many hit 1 hit everything skillshots. Lissandra, Annie, Lux, Le blanc, Ahri, Zyra, Velkoz, syndra, veigar , Zoe
  • Abilities such as Ezreal Q cannot be dodged if you are a melee on top of ranged
  • There has been massive increase in abilities alike Ezreal Q compared to something like karthus Q which is easier to handle for melees

Riot has done nothing to help melees dodge stuff, what could they do?

  • Stop printing so many Ezreal Q like abilities
  • Accelerating skillshots (so that they can be dodged from melee range)
  • longer cast times
  • Keystone which allows them to rotate around target they recently autoed

That the only flaw I see with skillshots, We can argue that there is still not enough of them Lulu caught but thats it.

ALSO 2K18 WE DONT HAVE remote control MISSLE SKILLSHOT FKING TILTED. perhaps could fit mordekaiser with magnets and metal

Macro nowdays is snowball your ADC xd, but yeah there werent many Macro in s1-s2 but in season 5 for example compared to now there were more Macro is quite advanced but it is always the same. Gank bot >get tower > swap > get top tower > get mid tower > herald > siege whatever

But yes everyone and their mother knows snowball is out of hand

Also AD Carries without a single doubt in any high elo mind (non adc main) do to much damage. But it is fine if you didnt experience it that way, perhaps play more games, actually dont league is in horrible state boycot

Mainly it is because crits do 250% of AD and lastwhisper is insane (not that void is any better). MR and armor reduce damage by to small %

I see KogMaw Twitch Xayah one shoting 4 people infront of them in 2-3 seconds

As far as jungle goes. I cant tell whats going on. There is nothing linear and everything has this wierd interactions

Krugs are annoying with their spawning and tiny hitbox. Raptors do insane damage. Not so long ago redbuff was easier to solo then blue buff (redbuff had higher attackspeed)

How many people knew redbuff has higher attackspeed? Scuttle sometimes enter script like juke mode and has annoying blocky hitbox

Buffs are the only thing which matters Exp wise, there is lots of taxing due to that...

Honestly Jungle is full of unclear gimmicks. I dont really play it often nowdays because of that

Raven Redeemed1 votes

Agreed on items. I think they are better than before, but still need work. Mages in particular have some really strange items (Morello is really cheap, has a great build path, amazing stats, and GW to boot; or Liandry's has flat pen but also does % hp dmg?) that need work.

Your one hit champ list has few champs with powerful skill shots save for Zoe or Veigar. Are you talking about burst mages? Burst mages kill by comboing their abilities. Artillery mages typically poke people down with their powerful skill shots.

I agree the normal start has been to gank bot until the tower falls. I suspect that is due to tower fb, the lack of a fortification bonus on bot towers, and of course because adc's scale best with towers.

I main support in mid plat so I feel have a pretty good understanding of how powerful adc's are. They may be a bit over tuned, but I don't think their dps is far from balanced. I agree they have gotten too bursty as of late. As a rule I'd say if they can duel burst mages they are too strong as burst is supposed to be the counter to dps.

Yeah, the jungle could really use some clarity. At least a well documented web page for new players to check out.

Personally I think top lane needs the most work right now. It's hard to impact the game save for a nice tp gank. Plus all kinds of strange stuff gets taken top (like adc's, comet, smite during the lane smite meta) and it feels bad when you get counter pick because counters are so much more effective top than in any other lane. It needs some refined identity/role in my opinion.

Poske1 votes

You are overestimating lyandri

Guise is the only 1500 gold price point item

if you added more ~ AP price point items you would see way less lyandri

If you back with 1500-2300 gold what do you buy? Answer is guise. So you end up buying lyandri because its the only thing it builds into

You cannot buy item 3108 and teamfight with 1000 gold not spent. No good player would do that. So everyone gets guise + elixir High elo players tend to spam this because there is lack of items item 2139

**But yeah lyandri doesnt know what it wants to be I guess. Is that a bad thing? perhaps. **

But you cuold additionally comment any other ap item because literaly all of them have an issue

item 3089 - for trolls. Sad how low original zhonya ring has gotten item 3135 - Unhealthy item for a game any item with such high% penetration is unhealthy for a game item 3165 - Unhealthy item for a game any item with such high% healing reduction is unhealthy for a game item 3285 - Compare it to shiv or duskblade XD - Barely good enough on champions on which it should be amazing item 3157 - Chain vest > gimmicky armguard, this item feels noob baity, horrible build path item 3115 - Teemo does pen stuff, Azir is better with berserkers + runes, Kayle is a toplane/midlane support for her baby jungle twitch item 3102 - Good item ruined by build path item 3146 - I guess you are a Akali Katarina. This item is deathfire grasp for those -.- (which is removed) item 3124 - Cant even count it as AP item item 3027 - To bad games last 5 minutes item 3116 - Azir ruined this one to the laughable state. Just Weak takes up 3 item slots item 3100 - This item is more unhealthy then Deathfire for Leblanc. Weaker version of deathfire for others
item 3145 - This item is more unhealthy then Deathfire for Leblanc. Fine other then that. I like lb unique build though. item 3174 - Stolen by supports item 3504 - It was never really viable in mid (karma mid with this was sadly subpar even in ardent meta) item 3092 - I guess you are desperate ekko , Or brand who is like 30 patches late to brand frost mid item 3041 - Smurf having fun item 3136 - Well you cant build anything else anyway item 3030 - Hi aurelion sol. JUST 1 CHAMPION item 3040 - Not good unless you have mana scalling. Debatable even on anivia karthus nowdays item 3152 - No complaints actually.. item 3802 - No more mana problems on 90% mages. That makes it kinda problematic. I think its fine people say its to good.

Only items which are fine are item 3108 item 3152 item 3113 item 1056 item 1082 item 3020

The last 2 good strong AP (Void,Nomicon) are unhealthy for a game. Idk I would just remove entire AP itemization and design a new one **Nothing is good. Diversity is low. It feels like every AP champion build is set in stone and 80% of stones are the same **

Teleport is horrible summoner yet nessessity in toplane (Idk how they managed to create this even) Only way toplane ll have impact is if we give them a portal on the edges of map to botlane (Somekind of 5 sec ritual then port)

Thats how bad it is

Or just nerf Crit itemization and duskblade and balance from there

Raven Redeemed1 votes

Agreed. I wasn't trying to imply Liandry was good, I was thinking it's a jumble of random stats. Defense (hp), squishy busting (flat pen), and tank busting (% hp). You buy an item to do something but mask tries to do too many things so it's just a bunch of watered-down stats.

d1v1ne beast4 votes

Gnar's q will return after hitting minions or a champion and the cooldown is only lowered if he catches it on the return Ahri's charm can be blocked by minions

AHScoven3 votes

The ahri statement “hiding behind creeps does nothing” is completely bullshit.

Disulfiram1 votes

He explained why it is not: if you hide behind creeps she can use Q which, even if you dodge it, still clears the wave.

Darkeus2 votes

Yeah, but at first he mentions Charm. Charm cannot go through minions. He did not mention Q at first, that yes it does go through everything.

But the quote is literally, "Charm, medium hitbox, hiding behind creeps does nothing" So anyone could easily take that he is talking exclusively about her E.

ChaosThief2 votes

If anything, you missed item 3085 for marksman waveclear.

But yeah. The game should really be less punishing in ways that most people wouldn't even notice.

Hibeki4 votes

shiv crit instantly kills an entire wave.

Hawkefire1 votes

If they nerf shyv then hurricane would simply replace it. Both items are simply too strong in their current form, and I still question whether or not making hurricane into a crit item was even a good idea in the first place.

Très Pauvre1 votes

{quoted}

If they nerf shyv then hurricane would simply replace it. Both items are simply too strong in their current form, and I still question whether or not making hurricane into a crit item was even a good idea in the first place.

what if it was made into a pure onhit AOE item like rageblade but instead of the double on hitpassive it was the aoe passive on build up?

Hawkefire1 votes

Could be neat, but you would have to give it some form of compensation in the form of stats, and I don't know what stats would be most fitting on the item.

Oxyrotten2 votes

Skill requirements mean noobs, bads, casuals, and kids will not progress in the game. This means less player retention. Which in turn effects profits.

Kal Vas Flam2 votes

Your biggest complaint seems to be that the game is a little easier from a macro perspective? I'm not sure that's a bad thing. If it was too hardcore Riot would probably have a player retention issue, and if I had to guess, I would say they made most of these changes to help with player retention.

thomasb12152 votes

I’ve gotta say that I disagree with some of your points.

  1. Choosing which items to buy is a form of macro play. Perhaps you could make the case that certain wave clear items are overly effective in other areas (as is definitely the case with shiv right now), but having items that augment certain play styles is actually a good thing as it allows for adaptability. And you still definitely have to play around ‘who is your waveclear’, just your waveclear is not entirely dependent on your champions.

  2. I don’t understand what you mean by skill shots are now extremely minimal. Most of the skill shots you listed have been the same way for a long long time. And I can even think of a few that have been nerfed over the course of time.

  • Mundo had his cleaver width reduced

  • Jayce had his acceleration gate cool down reduced so he has less empower q’s

  • Leona had her e width reduced

Also, saying that having aoe on a skillshot makes hiding behind creeps do nothing is absurd. Especially in the case of jayce and Zoe, the aoe is incredibly small, and gnar’s boomerang returns shortly after hitting creeps. And in the case of Caitlyn hiding behind creeps actually does quite a lot if you aren’t stupid enough to step on her traps.

Finally, hiding behind creeps doesn’t have to be the only form of couterplay against skill shots, and not all skill shots are supposed to be hard to hit in the first place. This is where your coveted tenant of Macro Play comes in. You have to actually play around what the enemy champ can do rather than just relying on hiding behind creeps.

  1. The mechanic of minion wave management has always existed in the game. You don’t just get “free damage” and “denied gold” for killing your opponent, you get it for managing your wave we’ll both before and after the kill.

I would argue that higher death timers and more minion damage on towers make your macro play even more relevant as they increase the value of play-making and strategy.

  1. In your previous point you complain that mistakes are too punishing and then in the very next one you talk about how ADCs’ misplays hurt less. So... what?

In my opinion ADC is still the toughest class to play although it is a bit overtuned at the moment (but this is also partially an issue with supports as well).

Buffed jungle camps and increased timers actually make jungle pathing a lot more important because failed ganks set you more behind.

And it’s not like core jungling mechanics are now obsolete. Warding the enemy jungle and tracking the their jungler is still important, and playing around your camp timers and clears is even more important, even though you don’t have to directly keep timers anymore.

  1. You are right that modern champs have a bit more power and some better mechanics in their kits, but that is why riot is working on updating many outdated champs so that they can all compete with each other.

In conclusion: as someone who has been playing since the beginning of season 3, I can say that this game has not actually changed as much as you think it has in terms of macro play. Bot lane focus and rushing down towers has always been paramount, even back in the days when teams would lane swap to avoid bad bot lane matchups or abuse the enemy top laner. New mechanics have been added into the game, but none which change it on a fundamental level from what it was. Some of the changes, like those to sun fire cape and zz’rot portal, or the introduction of the new runes, actually give players more macro play options than before. Gone are the days of stat-stick masteries and runes; there are now more mechanics and windows of power to play around (on both macro and micro scales).

Frankly I think a lot of players who make these kinds of complaints are blinded by nostalgia. I’m not saying that things are perfect right now, but they aren’t actually too far different from how they used to be, and in some cases they are better. You can’t honestly claim that jungler macro play is less important now than in the days of afk farming feral flare, or that top laners macro play matters less than when every lane was Trundle, Shyvana, and Renekton wet noodle fighting for 20 minutes. Obviously there are new problems in the game now and I don’t agree with all the changes being made, but on the whole things are better than they used to be, and macro play is most definitely still intact.

JabaTheHat2 votes
  1. Maybe being able to buy wave clear does reduce macro play. I will agree here.
  2. Skillshots are not macro, at all. Please stop. Also alot of those aren't as easy to hit as you're making them out to be. Also stop there.
  3. You made a bold claim but had a terrible example to back it up. After you kill your lane opponent you SHOVE the entire wave to make him miss creeps. Killing one creep starts a slow push that denies yourself CS. Also, what do you mean you did literally nothing? He made a mistake of putting himself in a position to be killed and you punished him by killing him. This was a very meaningful interaction.
  4. The part about ADC being too influential on the game --- perhaps right. The part about ADC having become easy to play compared to other classes --- misleading. Besides assassins there are no other classes that can be said to be harder than ADC mechanically(tanks, bruisers, mages, enchanters are generally easier mechanically, besides a few specially designed champs in those categories). ADC is the easiest macro wise --- this is true. You literally just farm/lane/teamfight and never make real decisions. But none of this has changed for years. It's always been this way and saying they have "become" easy is just wrong.
  5. You're talking as if damage meta makes the game easier to play. It's the opposite. When the meta is damage that means both teams are picking lots of damage dealers. And in this case the better player often wins by playing better(better combo execution + faster reflex). This is similar to how Faker, the best player, can really shine as an assassin player way more than the other pros when assassins were meta. If the meta is tanky/ultility, a good player will not be able to show off his skill as much --- Faker's Zed is much better than other people's zed, but his Malz is not that much better than other people's Malz, for example.

Overall, yes SOME of what you said is true. If the meta is damage focused and it rewards micro play that need reflex and dexterity instead of macro play that revolves around thinking and strategy. And yes in the current damage, fast paced meta micro(mechanically) good players are rewarded more than the macro(decision making) players. You have a valid point. But whether or not macro or micro should influence the outcome of a game is also up to debate. I personally think micro skill should be rewarded more than macro skill but we can agree to to disagree there and that's fine. I'm just disappointed by the quality of your backup sub-points and evidence. Your main idea is okay, but the supporting paragraphs are honestly terrible.

Hibeki2 votes
  1. skillshots on a micro level affect your effectiveness as a role on a macro level. So yes, they are in relation affecting macro play. If your skillshots are piss easy to hit (Which are better than targeted skills because they can miss) then your class is more effective and takes less skill to use. Player skill is also macro level play. And you are lessening that factor.

  2. The example is supposed to be terrible. I didn't capitalize on their mistake and played it poorly, but still reaped a substantial extra reward because of shitty miscellaneous factors riot put in.

  3. Damage meta does make the game easier to play. The default playstyle for moba games is an aggressive one. Snowballing has become such a large attributing factor that its just who stomped the other team. It becomes nearly a coin flip in who's going to win the game and less about how you actually play it.

Despite the fact that your wins will be less reliable, flipping a coin or playing rock paper scissors is still easier to play than starcraft, no?

The problem with most of the replies like yours is you fail to see the bigger picture.

Pandemic Punch2 votes
  1. Nearly all of those wave clear items you have named have been around since season 2 or earlier.

  2. Some of those champions have been around forever. Also, claiming that hiding behind creeps does nothing vs Ahri's charm, is just blatantly false. Are you trying to hide behind enemy minions or something? You are overreaching for petty points in an attempt to make a big one. However, each petty point is standing on slippery slopes and a crumbling ground. It sounds like you ultimately don't like new champions rather than the point you were ACTUALLY trying to make.

  3. Your points here are all over the place and not making much sense. It sounds like you are just frustrated about faster games? Your initial point is something that has changed every season and your reasoning is too all over the place to really understand what you want.

  4. If they are so easy, why aren't you top 5 challenger?

  5. The stats disagree. It sounds like you are arguing against new champions again. That is the pattern.

Gelmous1 votes

what the hell is macro play?

JarodDempsey3 votes

large general playing mechanics such as clearing waves, skill shots, jungling, etc. Tbh some of the points the op raises are not macro play, he mainly titled it to entice readers.

Poske1 votes

How do you make the letters look gold? Gonna make a big thread LL probably need it

Othen then that good post. I suppose you didnt want to suggest fixes it was more of point out mistakes thread

As far as Lee sin Q. Hiding behind minions actually matters alot (Specially beacause Q as a skillshots starts from his back) Complaining about Ekko Q is ridiclius

In my last 200 games against ekko his Q on way back hits me maybe twice per game if that

Yes Ekko might hit have decent hitrate with his first Q which does no damage anyway

  • His W wont hit any good player
  • His Q on a way back wont hit any good player
  • His R wont hit a good player

Fk even his farming is unreliable

Ekko players started building Frost queen so that their abilities can hit Protobelt is also another desperation move which helps em farm and hit anything

But they still hit nothing / not enough. Ekko is extremly irelevant champion. An Int pick easy lane for me in 99% cases

Disulfiram2 votes

{quoted}

How do you make the letters look gold?

#You cannot

followed by text :p

Lùmen1 votes

Illaoi's E is a narrow and slow moving skillshot and it's easy to tell when she'll use it as well.

SeaChange2 votes

Yeah, her kit is NOT easy to pick up. A good illaoi is very clearly better than a new one.

Nyarlathοtep

While i agree with most of the stuff you listed, there is a problem.

Skillshots are now either extremely minimal or aided by things to help hit them

Thats true because it sucks sweet ass when you cant land your skillshots because the enemy can react fast enough to evade them. I main xerath for at least a year, and there is nothing worse than the feeling of trying to land your q, only to be sidestepped like its nothing. Many skillshot based champs need something to help them land their skillshot. Xerath has his w, velkoz has his q yada yada yada.

Poske2 votes

Xerath Q COLLISION RADIUS: 72.5

Ask any Pro player what they think about xerath Q width

95% ll say its to wide

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