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Spellvamp removed, OK, but why AP champions have access to absolutelyNO form of HP sustain?

Zero Skill Tank··177 votes·13,222 views

item 3010 - extremely, extremely weak. If you buy this for sustain you are doing it wrong. item 3146 - some outliers can use it, but that's it.

Meanwhile AD: item 3812 - that basically is spellvamp, but AD only? item 2140 - same story item 1083 item 1055 - HP sustain even on starter items Warlord bloodlust - up to more than 700 gold worth of stats on a mastery item 3074 item 3072 item 3153 and others - infinite, manaless, possibly ranged sustain

I get, spellvamp was too hard to balance, but a mastery, an elixir, some neutral buff, anything? Numbers on Eternity are awfully close to 0. Having to base 10 times as much as your enemy just because you happen to be shorter range mage is not a good gameplay experience. Maybe at least HP regen item.

Yeah, artilerries probably don't need it, but they have been nerfed to hell, and also Riot can easily make item, buff, whatever not accessible to the by giving it some important, short range property, they have the technology. And if Vlad breaks it, well maybe he should get a proper rework, not some excuse that leaves him with same problems only a bit more counterplay.

Because right now AP itemization is so insanely weak compared to AD, that the only option for Riot to make a viable AP champion is giving them some crazy mechanic like passive Kayle ult Malzahar

And no, item 3152 didn't fix anything, because of constant whining it got realeased in state so weak that even Annies don't bother to build it.

342 Comments

TNHA Baritone63 votes

Cause mages do burst damage so they can't get to sustain (sarcasm)

Meanwhile Lucian

Mister Support5 votes

Funny enough most Lucian's I see don't build lifesteal until last item but it's mostly for the high AD from BT, or if the enemy has an assassin threat. Meanwhile most mages have CC, mobility, or sustain built into them to work as self peel.

WeedTits6 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadCast Fenris,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zcKRBgwc,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-05-20T15:16:51.953+0000)

Funny enough most Lucian's I see don't build lifesteal until last item but it's mostly for the high AD from BT, or if the enemy has an assassin threat. Meanwhile most mages have CC, mobility, or sustain built into them to work as self peel.

We don't. The favored build atm is Yommus, luc boots, black cleaver, rapidfire, IE, and then finally the bloodthirster (which you might swap out for GA or some other defensive item, lifesteal isn't necessary at all, and ADCs are the squishiest role in the game....)

Psi212 votes

{quoted}

We don't. The favored build atm is Yommus, luc boots, black cleaver, rapidfire, IE, and then finally the bloodthirster (which you might swap out for GA or some other defensive item, lifesteal isn't necessary at all, and ADCs are the squishiest role in the game....)

Um no I build life steal and dorans even gives some life return on top of masteries. Out right lie that Lucians don't get early life steal early game.

Calling ADC squishie? um hello Graves is not squishie.

And with enough life steal and damage you can make ANY ....ADC into a non-squishie

WeedTits6 votes

{quoted}

Um no I build life steal and dorans even gives some life return on top of masteries. Out right lie that Lucians don't get early life steal early game.

Calling ADC squishie? um hello Graves is not squishie.

And with enough life steal and damage you can make ANY ....ADC into a non-squishie

ADCs are squishy, Graves is a marksman, and he goes jungle.

Go look at probuilds.com Lucian, you'll see that you're wrong.

Psi211 votes

{quoted}

ADCs are squishy, Graves is a marksman, and he goes jungle.

Go look at probuilds.com Lucian, you'll see that you're wrong.

Who cares about how you see Graves. He is ADC (Attack Damage Champion) with ridiculous sustain.

And yes Lucian's don't just build 100% probuilds and while we are at it there isn't just Summoner's Rift.

so bad.

WeedTits8 votes

{quoted}

Who cares about how you see Graves. He is ADC

And yes Lucian's don't just build 100% probuilds.

so bad.

Graves has been going jungle ever since his rework, nobody takes him bot lane anymore, no more than they take Yasuo bot lane. He doesn't build the same as an ADC, therefore he does not have an ADC build.

Right so all the players in the LCS are building Lucian wrong, and I'M bad for playing the same build.

Yeah you're not deluded at all.

Represent KGB1 votes

{quoted}

Graves has been going jungle ever since his rework, nobody takes him bot lane anymore, no more than they take Yasuo bot lane. He doesn't build the same as an ADC, therefore he does not have an ADC build.

Right so all the players in the LCS are building Lucian wrong, and I'M bad for playing the same build.

Yeah you're not deluded at all.

I think it is bad If you are building exactly what you see in any specific pro game, in many games it is advantageous to build counter items to the enemy team (Most Champions have 3 CORE items that are static YES buy your core) In my history of league most players decide to couple their core items with more DAMAGE when it's better to buy an item or two that will directly effect how team fights are played out.

It's never a good argument to say well faker built x item and carried so i will build that item every single game also there are so many factors that determine what you SHOULD buy and when but that's to far advanced for basic play.

WeedTits6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Represent KGB,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zcKRBgwc,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-05-20T17:16:59.231+0000)

I think it is bad If you are building exactly what you see in any specific pro game, in many games it is advantageous to build counter items to the enemy team (Most Champions have 3 CORE items that are static YES buy your core) In my history of league most players decide to couple their core items with more DAMAGE when it's better to buy an item or two that will directly effect how team fights are played out.

It's never a good argument to say well faker built x item and carried so i will build that item every single game also there are so many factors that determine what you SHOULD buy and when but that's to far advanced for basic play.

Well of course, but I assume that kind of thing goes without saying (am I giving too much credit to the community here lol?). I'm just saying that this is generally the optimal build you'd go, that you could make changes to as needed. That being said I still think lifesteal is a low priority on Lucian compared to some other things unless you were against a lot of poke or something, to the point that you usually won't buy it in most of your games.

statelesskiller1 votes

if you ask me the people in the lcs are building lucian wrong. the lucian black cleaver youmoos build falls off late aka A SHIT BUILD

WeedTits5 votes

{quoted}

if you ask me the people in the lcs are building lucian wrong. the lucian black cleaver youmoos build falls off late aka A SHIT BUILD

Well that's why they get paid to play the game and you don't.

How can anyone honestly believe shit like this? If it wasn't the best, then the best wouldn't be doing it. Do you really think you're better at league than faker or doublelift? So much so that your opinion supersedes theirs? What kind of inflated ego does it take to honestly think like this, holy cow....

You come back when you're in the LCS, when you get paid to play this game, and when you spend 12+ hours a day playing it, then you can say what builds are trash. Till then, show some respect for the pros and their knowledge of the game, because you are a nobody.

Snowplosion4 votes

Fuck Lucian. I wouldn't play him so much, but I feel like I'm trolling my team when I am not.

WeedTits2 votes

{quoted}

Fuck Lucian. I wouldn't play him so much, but I feel like I'm trolling my team when I am not.

This is the only post in this thread worth anything.

Snowplosion2 votes

Lucian is fun, but I love Jinx and Jhin. They thing is that Lucian is so damn strong and popular that if I pick one of them I'm just going to get fucked by a Lucian.

SnowFall33 votes

I liked old ROA more cause the healing was more reliable and it had more ap, #BRINGBACKOLDROA

Michael Sykes5 votes

more like

#MAKEROAGREATAGAIN

ZT Xperimentor31 votes

Juggernaut patch made some bruisers into great brutal front-liners, except mordekaiser unless his team builds around him. Marksman patch gave the vast majority of physical carries buffs either in kits, items, or both. But the Mage patch? Was nothing but a spiteful letdown; mages across the board were more or less gutted, items scaled down, kit ratios & bases nerfed. Only a couple actually being playable due to being a bit overbearing.

Elewd7 votes

which mages got gutted besides cass and vlad being released weaker on purpose out of fear of what the itemization changes will do. because most of the other mages are all at above 50% winrates now.

WeedTits6 votes

{quoted}

which mages got gutted besides cass and vlad being released weaker on purpose out of fear of what the itemization changes will do. because most of the other mages are all at above 50% winrates now.

Exactly dude, these people complain and argue when they have zero facts or data to back up their statements and everything in the stats and data prove the exact opposite of what they're saying. They literally don't understand logic. The data is right before their eyes and they just say "no", like it doesn't exist. The definition of delusion.

You literally cannot argue that these mages aren't in a better place now than they were before. The math proves that they are. It's a fact. Not an opinion. Numbers don't lie.

Elewd14 votes

except support zyra, her supporting actually got weaker due to her changes but her midlane went from a 48% winrate to being 54% winrate and being one of the top ones out there. Im fully expecting my fav champ to get nerfed now.

forresto20 votes

she was never supposed to be a support in the first place. she just ended up there because her damage numbers were low, and her cc was strong but unreliable.

HowPlayGAEM9 votes

[deleted]

It Hertz When IP8 votes

Ziggs might have been more of a success if his Satchel execute wasn't so damn situational.

JESUSSAYSNO12 votes

[{quoted}](name=OMG halp meh plz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zcKRBgwc,comment-id=0010000100000001,timestamp=2016-05-20T16:23:58.883+0000)

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Middle&sortBy=general.winPercent&order=ascend

Swain, Cass, Vlad, Syndra are the bottom 4 midlaners.

Ziggs, Anivia, Xerath and Velkoz aren't exactly top tier either, at # 37 and below...

Your stats are wrong and dated.

Swain was massivly overbuffed and currently is the highest winrate in the the toplane and the entire game. op.gg has him at 58.3% winrate since 6.10 dropped.

Anivia is the second best champion in the game at a 55.71% winrate

Cass is middle of the pack rocking a 50.49% winrate.

Vlad is still shit because of his kit, but his winrate is 47% after the patch buffed his ult and fixed a few bugs. I expect more buffs to reduce his visual based counterplay. He also isnt a midlaner and taking him mid is and has been dumb as balls for ages.

Ziggs is at 49.5% winrate, so he's pretty much fine. Conditional pick, dedicated mains can carry, same as always.

Syndra is the second worst champion in the game at 43%, being worse than yoric's 45%, and only outclassing Talyah's 38%, so yeah, she's bad.

Sp33d Zer06 votes

Swain's winrate after 6.10 is 58%....

ZT Xperimentor12 votes

Syndra had the damage on her Q (her primary ability) dropped by 1/3, that's huge. Xerath's ult does less damage by 1/4 per shot. Zyra & Sona suffer significantly from the reduced AP available, unless the enemy does something stupid like ignore them constantly. Victor had his ratios lowered on all his damaging abilities, and his W takes longer to stun. Ahri's passive heal reduced again, this time to 1/10th AP, may as well not even exist. Oriana & Karthus & Aurelionsol all suffer maintaining any momentum thanks to the lack of mana regeneration and reduced AP availible.

PSA; Do research before complaining.

Elewd2 votes

"zyra suffers significantly" and thats why she has the 4th highest overall winrate. Syndra's Q does more damage now after getting 600 ap (which is super easy to get now) Victor got nerfed and i agree that it was dumb but its riot. they didn't touch ahri at all during the update so i dont know where you are getting his ahri passive heal reduced. and the mana sustain is literally just people being bad at mana management, i dont have any mana issues when i play orianna now.

ZT Xperimentor17 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/04/red-post-collection-state-of-season.html#2 They wanted to keep mages from spamming, but add cooldown reduction everywhere while removing nearly all mana regeneration. After giving ranged physical carries better mana sustain & cooldown reduction in 1 item. Open your eyes, it's blatant favoritism.

Elewd6 votes

Alright so you are basing everything off words and things spoken on paper, have you actually played the changes? Like honest question. I play almost exclusivly mages, and the only time i've ever run oom is when i spam my spells to shove a lane. what exactly are you doing to make yourself go out of mana so fast? do you not last hit with the auto attacks? do you not build a dorans ring for the extra mana sustain? Riot wanted to remove infinite mana wave clear from mages, but reward those for playing aggresvily and using their spells to get kills and harass, and they did just that and succeded. im sorry you are can't handle mana mangement without having infinite mana.

Oh and heres a tip, if you are still having trouble with mana management, ge 2 dorans rings then a morellonomicon, if you run out of mana then you really need to go and check your playstyle.

ZT Xperimentor6 votes

I have spent 3 consecutive days playing (aside from work, food, & sleep) playing these changes in bpe & in live; hence my opinion on riot's bias.

Indeed it takes skill to manage mana in the first place, but you can't afford to take your time against the hyper mobile burst assassins (such as zed, yasou, ekko, ext). Having a half second to defend yourself from being instantly killed isn't fun. I'm aware riot didn't want mages to just stay passive waveclear bots, but they're being hypocritical by not giving assassins the same treatment. These double standards are why I'm frustrated with their design & rework mentality.

I often rush the nomicon and look for teamfights, works out fairly often. Not a fan of the doran's items, but I'll give them a try.

Elewd3 votes

assassins == mages they should have different strengths and weaknesses. mages thrive in teamfights doing lots of aoe damage and crowd control, assassins (ignoring ekko because he needs to be removed from the game) tend to not work well in teamfights, only when picking people off.

ZT Xperimentor7 votes

Oh please tell me what it costs; -fizz to go intangible every 5 seconds -yasou to have a shield from running in circles, an area denial every 10 seconds -zed to blink & shuriken every 5 seconds -quin to fly faster than a teleport every 10 seconds -katarina to spam blinks & daggers -ekko to have a get out of jail free move every minute -fiora to chunk 15% true damage with autoattacks -ext.

Problem is mages are worse off than ever before!

WeedTits2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zcKRBgwc,comment-id=00100001000200000001,timestamp=2016-05-20T17:59:13.086+0000)

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/04/red-post-collection-state-of-season.html#2 They wanted to keep mages from spamming, but add cooldown reduction everywhere while removing nearly all mana regeneration. After giving ranged physical carries better mana sustain & cooldown reduction in 1 item. Open your eyes, it's blatant favoritism.

What I know is when I play LeBlanc, or Ahri, or several other mages, I don't feel like ADCs are stronger than me. In fact, I feel bad for them. I delete them in an instant and there's literally no counterplay or anything they can do unless someone who is more durable than them comes to save their ass. On their own, in a 1v1? If you land your spells on an ADC he's dead dude, 100%. It doesn't feel good for the ADC to have an opponent he himself cannot face without assistance. There's a lot of them too lol. Assassins, most fighters, most mages...

ZT Xperimentor13 votes

Ahri & leblanc are magic assassins, though ahri could be played like a regular mage, her kit would play awkwardly doing so. I'm taking about the more immobile mages, such as syndra & xerath, having 40% cooldown reduction is pointless when you can only use one rotation of abilities. Riot's ideas of adding the blinking belts is more harmful to these champions than anything, as they are often abused by champions already with mobility; such as katarina, ekko & fizz.

Captain Aishi18 votes

playing syndra and landing a Q+E+W+Q+ult combo on an adc and not bursting through his maw shield and then getting draintanked by his 45% lifesteal feels pretty damn frustrating i'll be honest

ZT Xperimentor6 votes

Like I said she was nerfed hard; people need to look at the difference between her numbers before & after the 'mage update'. While marksmen got a bunch of stuff to counter mages, mages got nothing in return! Double standards, favoritism, ext.

The Deckowner18 votes

When you play a poke mage and the enemy has lifesteal, you basically wasting your mana while you enemy heals to full by aa minions. It feels like shit.

Psi217 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zcKRBgwc,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2016-05-20T16:33:29.073+0000)

When you play a poke mage and the enemy has lifesteal, you basically wasting your mana while you enemy heals to full by aa minions. It feels like shit.

^ this

The Whamboozler13 votes

Well it's balanced you see... AD champs get lifesteal to sustain their health. This gives them a ton more durability in fights and lets them survive and shrug off poke at times to avoid going into fights at low health and being at a disadvantage.

AP champs get MANA regen. That way they can use their abilities more often and- What's that you say? They pretty much deleted mana regen? Um, well... AP champs have CDR then, which lets them- What's that? AD, tank and bruiser items are full of CDR too? Um, well....

Look, what you aren't getting is that mages have powerful spells that they can use to hurt people at a distance before being rendered useless until their cooldowns are back. AD champions meanwhile have powerful auto attacks that never run out, help them push, last-hit, and duel when their cooldowns are up. The downside to them is that they tend to have poor range and- What's that? ADC's? Well, yes... but they're very fragile. They blow up quickly to an AP champ with burst. What? Graves? Oh for f*ck's sake.

Ok screw it. I give up. It's not balanced at all.

INoble KnightI6 votes

item 3508

Milky Star5 votes

Honestly its such an overloaded item, i love it but damn you really shouldn't ever go oom once you get it plus 30% cdr is insane.

INoble KnightI5 votes

Yeah 30% CDR, Crit chance, High damage, and the ability to get Mana back on crits. Totally balance.

Big Lincoln4 votes

because mages have bigger health pools and the ones that have sustain passively (mostly) got sustain buffs

they don't need lifesteal items

Kitten of Evil26 votes

because mages have bigger health pools

They really don't. At level 18, the squishiest ADC (Ezreal) still has more base HP than 22 other champions (most of them mages/supports). Just to give a few examples of base HP at level 18:

Jhin: 1985 Tristana: 1937 Vayne: 1909 Ashe: 1871 Ezreal: 1844

Lux: 1821 Annie: 1804 Vel'Koz and Brand: 1800 Heimer: 1751 Anivia: 1658

Big Lincoln7 votes

alright, completely ignore that they have health-AP items then

item 3152 item 3030 item 3151 item 3116 item 3027

mage circlejerk never ends

Kitten of Evil12 votes

My only point was that it's inaccurate to say that mages have "larger health pools" than ADCs. If they do, it's because they're spending gold to buy health, which is something ADCs can do also (item 3053 and item 3742 being two not-so-long-ago examples).

WeedTits3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zcKRBgwc,comment-id=0005000000000001,timestamp=2016-05-20T15:27:09.666+0000)

My only point was that it's inaccurate to say that mages have "larger health pools" than ADCs. If they do, it's because they're spending gold to buy health, which is something ADCs can do also (item 3053 and item 3742 being two not-so-long-ago examples).

Perhaps but they most definitely have a higher range (in most cases) and with range comes safety. If Azir had spellvamp he could very likely 1v5 people, you've all seen it happen at least once.

I think the biggest thing that people are missing here is what it means to be a mage. Your defense is your overwhelming offense. That's been true of any mmorpg or anything else since dungeons and dragons.

LeBlanc and Syndra can 100-0 you in a full combo if you don't have MR. I can't do that with Ashe or even Lucian. That's why we get lifesteal, and you don't get spellvamp.

If you could 100-0 someone and heal yourself to full (and you would, because spellvamp is % of the damage you dealt, and you dealt a shit ton) at the same time, all in under ONE SECOND, that would be broken, and you're tripping if you think otherwise.

In fact ^^^ this right here ^^^ is why Riven and Zed are so fucking hated, because they CAN do that, and it has little counterplay and is frustrating as hell.

Spoofghoul9 votes

not so long agao azir had acces to spellvamp so why didnt i see him 1v5 people?

The Yetii Rider5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zcKRBgwc,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-05-20T14:06:13.519+0000)

They really don't. At level 18, the squishiest ADC (Ezreal) still has more base HP than 22 other champions (most of them mages/supports). Just to give a few examples of base HP at level 18:

Jhin: 1985 Tristana: 1937 Vayne: 1909 Ashe: 1871 Ezreal: 1844

Lux: 1821 Annie: 1804 Vel'Koz and Brand: 1800 Heimer: 1751 Anivia: 1658

Anivia has 3306 Health. She has two lives, and the second life has more armor and MR at that level.

Heimerdinger's base health was balanced around his old passive, which gave him amazing health regen. Should be increased.

Anyway, he's talking about mages having access to amazing health items. item 3027 item 3151 item 3030 item 3152 item 3116

They will end up with a pretty decent health pool. Close to 3000 if they build right.

Kitten of Evil19 votes

I'm not sure I'd classify all those health items as "amazing", and many champions don't use them at all (Veigar and Lux, for example). My point was just that mages' base health pools are smaller than ADCs' are. If they end up with more, it's because they are spending gold on HP. It's not "free". ADCs have also bought health in the fairly recent past: both Sterak's and Dead Man's were used not long ago.

Also, Anivia's a special case, which is why her HP is the lowest (along with Gnar, another special case). She has two lives, but she is defenseless during the first several seconds of the second life. So it's not nearly as good as just having a total of 3300 HP, but is certainly better than having 1650.

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