I don't mind 17 ganks before 20 minutes.
But when he comes to lane, burns safeguard, Q's from point-black, and after crapping on me a little like that realizes that it is actually me who could kill him and not the other way around, and despite having burned all his mobility he can still kick me away god damn 1200 units and walk away unpunished because for some reason his R barely has any cooldown at all - I dare to say something is not right.
Ulquiorra99561 votesThis is the biggest offender with Lee IMO: You don't play against him. He plays against you how he pleases. Can he kill you? He will and there's nothing you can do because he has 2 gapclosers, a slow and for some reason 350 base MS to go with those. He can't kill you? Well you aren't killing him either because, again, he has 3 ways to escape.
And he has passed 40% pickrate without Riot doing anything. Thank God that 10 bans are coming soon, I'm looking forward to never having to see him again.
Skias4 votesThis is the biggest offender with Lee IMO: You don't play against him. He plays against you how he pleases. Can he kill you? He will and there's nothing you can do because he has 2 gapclosers, a slow and for some reason 350 base MS to go with those. He can't kill you? Well you aren't killing him either because, again, he has 3 ways to escape.
And he has passed 40% pickrate without Riot doing anything. Thank God that 10 bans are coming soon, I'm looking forward to never having to see him again.
I feel like Lee and Ekko are both like that. They dive and dive and dive and you have to burn so much shit just to stay alive. Then they always escape because they have too much mobility.
AIIan9 votesI feel like Lee and Ekko are both like that. They dive and dive and dive and you have to burn so much shit just to stay alive. Then they always escape because they have too much mobility.
Except Ekko only has a dash+blink spell. And a MS boost if you let him proc his passive - which you shouldn't. Sure, he can use his ultimate to escape after a succesful towerdive, but it's more than half of his burst (depending on how much people he catches in it) gone for a good minute at least. While not exactly immobile, he definitely has less tools than Lee to work around.
statelesskiller11 votesits REALLY hard to not let ekko proc his passive. E point blank q AA and its procced
Skias1 votesExcept Ekko only has a dash+blink spell. And a MS boost if you let him proc his passive - which you shouldn't. Sure, he can use his ultimate to escape after a succesful towerdive, but it's more than half of his burst (depending on how much people he catches in it) gone for a good minute at least. While not exactly immobile, he definitely has less tools than Lee to work around.
His ultimate is not half his burst.
Pang Y1 votesThis is the biggest offender with Lee IMO: You don't play against him. He plays against you how he pleases. Can he kill you? He will and there's nothing you can do because he has 2 gapclosers, a slow and for some reason 350 base MS to go with those. He can't kill you? Well you aren't killing him either because, again, he has 3 ways to escape.
And he has passed 40% pickrate without Riot doing anything. Thank God that 10 bans are coming soon, I'm looking forward to never having to see him again.
I think they should remove his %missing health on second cast of Q.
Shinjusuke3 votesThat doesn't fix his core design problem at all though.
His problem is his absurd mobility and agency when fighting (as op makes a good example of)
That, and that his kit is so overloaded he has EVERY tool a jungler could ask for, and can build anything he wants.
However, being a good jungler is not inherently a crime: It's his kit being ABSURDLY oppressive to play against AND being a good jungler that makes him stupid
Whut Thuh 2 votesone is a skillshot and the other requires an ally, usually a ward. so if you dodge the skillshot then you're good, if he has no wards, you're fine. if you use wards, then he wont be able to walk up within his w range and pointblank q you as the op says. and lee doesnt have really good damage, like its ok. but its not the greatest past 8 mins or so.
second. WHO CARES IF HE HAS A HIGH PICKRATE! HES FUN TO PLAY! LIKE JESUS PPL SAY CHAMPIONS ARE BORING BUT THEN WHEN THERES A FUN ONE AND IT GETS PLAYED ALOT PEOPLE CRY LIKE LITTLE BABIES WANTING NERFS. honestly, what are they supposed to do? remove the parts of his kit that make it fun, becasue doing that would hurt his already subpar winrate? or change the numbers to make him win less, making him win less and making him less fun, while again hurting his poor winrate.
you say 40 percent pickrate, like he destroys every game hes in, which he doesnt. and half the time statistacally hes on your side, so you only have to face him every 5 games, which is a lot. but that should give you time to learn to play against him. are are you just really bad?
Ulquiorra9952 votesBetween jungle item and trinket there really isn't a moment where he does not have a ward unless he gets really, really reckless.
And how exactly is around 50% winrate on a supposedly high skill champion subpar? High skill champions are supposed to be sub-50%, especially when they are picked a lot. But no, even when Lee's pick rate takes a leap his winrate does not change much. This means one of two following things: 1.) Lee is actually not a high skill champion. 2.) Lee is overpowered enough that you can fail with him and still win.
And yes, he destroys games: not directly, but by completely killing variety by himself. For years viable jungle pool has consisted of Lee and jungles who can deal with Lee; and this has been and still is actively enforced by Riot. With that high pick rate you can't really pick a junglier who isn't able to deal with Lee and just hope other team does not have him. Honestly, they could just rename jungle to Lee Sin role and it would not be far from the truth. And I've learned to play against him - you really don't have a fucking choice here when you see his ugly mug in half of your games. Also, just saying - when you pull "you're just bad" card without anything to back it up it is a huge flag saying "I'm all out of valid arguments".
Also thank God for 10 bans coming soon. League will become a much better place without Lee.
Big Black Croc8 votesYou could say that after 10 bans he can only be played in BLIND pick.
Kill me.
Ben Sharpio36 votesthe best part is when you catch him fucking around in your jungle, try to kill him, and then he uses all of his mobility, his above average base movement speed and the shitty blast cone to get away.
SkZ DoPe12 votesand then you catch him and he kicks you back to were the chase started
AmazoX2 votes
: YehKU!
Acheron162 votes[{quoted}](name=l Sion Bot l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KOVhpnwW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-19T08:56:52.353+0000)
the best part is when you catch him fucking around in your jungle, try to kill him, and then he uses all of his mobility, his above average base movement speed and the shitty blast cone to get away.
It's funny because other champions with mobility? Shit move speed. Lee Sin, because he's Riot's sweetheart? One of the highest base move speeds in the game.
Blakiepug1 votes[{quoted}](name=l Sion Bot l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KOVhpnwW,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-19T08:56:52.353+0000)
the best part is when you catch him fucking around in your jungle, try to kill him, and then he uses all of his mobility, his above average base movement speed and the shitty blast cone to get away.
Those darn blast cones.
Bears Dont Care1 votesThose darn blast cones.
Its better when he kicks you in the face...and you can't chase him because his ult has a stun component.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku11 votesUnpopulare opinion*[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]*
i think riot should just nerf his movespeed (start with -5 ms).
Blue Kaozi19 votes[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KOVhpnwW,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-04-19T12:36:21.365+0000)
Unpopulare opinion
i think riot should just nerf his movespeed (start with -5 ms).
I'm 90% sure this isn't an unpopular opinion. Theres nothing worse than juking 2-3 Q's / faking out the ward hop, then having him still just walking up to you and ult Q, Q.
On another note, I don't think he's as bad to play against as he used to be (and I hate the guy)
Glory ln Death9 votes[{quoted}](name=Blue Kaozi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KOVhpnwW,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-04-19T12:50:02.361+0000)
I'm 90% sure this isn't an unpopular opinion.
I'm 90% sure you aren't familiar with how the phrase "Unpopular Opinion" is used on Boards. It's pretty much always followed by a popular opinion.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votesthats why i used it for double sense.
first : was a joke, because op = popular opinion second : more serious, could already nerf ms of lee. Most of the board just look at damage of lee sin
Faceroll Tactics1 votesI think I have a better nerf:
W: Safeguard can no longer be cast on self
This destroys his jungle sustain, someone with so much gank potential shouldn't also be 100% after his clear
Shinjusuke2 votesI'd be more okay with his absolute bullshit mobility if his damage and sustain took a hit.
Riot would, of course, "compensation buff" cuz he's their precious widdle posterboy (and always has been).
If
his execution damage on Q was replaced with AD scaling and a MINOR base dmg buff (so he actually has to build AD to do stupidly high damage),
he couldn't get the shield when using W on himself (he still needs to get to selfcast so he can get his passive)
his ult got that bullshit bonus damage based on target hp reverted, AND it was given a longer cooldown (or kicked like 600/700/800 units based on ult level)
He'd be tolerable. THEN he'd actually require the skill his fanboys (and Riot, also fanboys) have been pretending he does while he's been top tier and dominating the jungle for SEVEN SEASONS and through EVERY rework of the jungle.
Giving him ACTUAL fucking weaknesses needes to happen years ago.
His current kit and Riot's/his fans attitude toward him is basically the equivalent of someone bringinf a bazooka to a knife fight and claiming they're "skilled" when they blow the other guy right the fuck up
Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votesi don't think the popular opinion is Lee sin is op/broken... what's unpopulare is what nerf is needed. But when i wrote this it was ironic about op.
edit : btw lee sin is very strong atm because other jungler are weak in general, jungle give less xp (very small tbh) and games are very short.
Faceroll Tactics3 votesThe big issue with jungle right now is generalists- Hecarim Lee and Elise are too good at everything for anyone else to shine. Hell the only thing Lee doesn't have is max health damage and invulnerability, he has just about every other buff and mechanic in the game- attack speed buff, energy use, missing health damage, shield, spellvamp, lifesteal, point and click cc, aoe damage, a slow, ward hopping, and bonus health percent damage
Tentacle Advisor2 votes[{quoted}](name=Faceroll Tactics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KOVhpnwW,comment-id=0004000000010000,timestamp=2017-04-19T21:58:22.269+0000)
...he has just about every other buff and mechanic in the game - attack speed buff, energy use, missing health damage, shield, spellvamp, lifesteal, point and click cc, aoe damage, a slow, ward hopping, and bonus health percent damage
HOLY CRAP! Had I not read this, I never would have noticed how overloaded he actually was. I mean, I know just by looking at his abilities (on their own) that he's overloaded, but when all the effects are listed together, it really puts emphasis on just how overloaded it is.
HateDaddy2 votes[{quoted}](name=Blue Kaozi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KOVhpnwW,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-04-19T12:50:02.361+0000)
I'm 90% sure this isn't an unpopular opinion. Theres nothing worse than juking 2-3 Q's / faking out the ward hop, then having him still just walking up to you and ult Q, Q.
On another note, I don't think he's as bad to play against as he used to be (and I hate the guy)
I hate Lee but I'm sorry, this is a total crock of shit. In what situation will you be in where you force Lee to use 3 Qs to miss them, juke out his ward hop and have not made it back to a placee of safety through all of that? I think a 5 flat reduction in MS won't change shit with him and there are bigger problems to address, not to mention this story is just complete bullshit.
Blue Kaozi3 votesI hate Lee but I'm sorry, this is a total crock of shit. In what situation will you be in where you force Lee to use 3 Qs to miss them, juke out his ward hop and have not made it back to a placee of safety through all of that? I think a 5 flat reduction in MS won't change shit with him and there are bigger problems to address, not to mention this story is just complete bullshit.
I was tristana, used flash, heal, w and ult. Think what you want though, doesn't matter to me. He flashed back in if that helps anything.
I was pushing out top solo a bit too far and trying to leave
Teridax686 votesI think the issue with this is that Lee Sin gets to circumvent a core weakness of his class without really making any sort of clear tradeoff: when talking about the diver subclass, Riot mentions each time that their core trait is that they're very good at getting into fights and reaching the back line, but have a lot of trouble getting out, and instead have to essentially punch their way through. With Lee Sin, though, not only is he great at reaching the back line, he's also quite capable of leaving at pretty much any moment, due to the free dash on his W and his powerful knockback.
If Lee paid for this somehow with another clear weakness, that much would be fine, but the current and long-standing issue is that he doesn't. Not only does he have great safety, he also has above-average utility and crowd control for a diver, and is also capable of some burst. He perhaps has less persistent damage than the average diver, but really, his biggest issue right now is that he's mostly balanced around number nerfs to an overloaded kit, rather than clearly-defined inbuilt weaknesses. He's "balanced" in the sense that his win rate is generally within an acceptable bracket (and even then, his current stats suggest otherwise), and he's honestly capable of doing a lot of great things, but he also has major design issues common to most overloaded champions, in that he doesn't make clear tradeoffs, feels overbearing to play against, and is harmful to diversity whenever he's especially popular, as is the case now. He needs a weakness, and likely fewer strengths as well.
Automated Riven2 votesI would likely classify lee and a skirmisher instead of a diver. in which case the amounts of mobility he has makes sense.
Teridax682 votesSkirmishers tend to be defined by short-ranged, persistent mobility though, and also have inbuilt defenses that they're expected to rely on besides raw tankiness. Fiora, for example, has short-ranged dashes on a really low cooldown, plus persistent bonus MS, and relies on her W block to survive encounters, while generally building damage. By contrast, Lee mostly facetanks, though his mobility does let him dodge some things, and unlike a skirmisher, he can reach the back line pretty much immediately. Skirmishers also tend to have to walk or fight their way out of an encounter, since their mobility isn't really long-ranged, whereas Lee Sin still bypasses that with his ward jump.
Ulquiorra9952 votesHe doesn't really fit in any of melee subclasses tho.
Divers, as you said, are good at getting in and dealing damage, but not good at getting out. Lee is good at all of those. Skirmishers are defined by low-CD mobility they have to use to survive and sustained damage; Lee can tank his fair share and also has great burst. He could've been classified as an assassin, having tools to get in, burst his target, and get out. But again, his W and passive give him the tools to win sustained fights too. He does have utility to be a tank (and champions with less CC/utility than him have been built tank to a great success) - except he has too much damage to be one. Juggernauts - just no. Lee might have the damage to be one but he certainly lacks immobility of them.
I wish Riot would just decide what they want Lee to be and go with that. As it stands, he possesses the strengths of all melee character subclasses with none of the weaknesses.
Teridax681 votesThat is true, Lee Sin doesn't really fit any specific subclass profile all that well, but I also don't think he needs to be changed specifically to fit a set profile. Lee Sin has his own unique combination of strengths, and that's mostly fine; what he really needs are clear weaknesses, and perhaps a tad fewer strengths. Suppose that Lee Sin were truly blind, in that he had a severely reduced personal sight radius (not necessarily what needs to happen, but just a thematic example): such a weakness would be completely unique to his character, and not specific to any class, yet would give him a unique set of contributions and needs that he'd be able to vastly contribute to diversity, instead of choking it out.
im actually bad5 votesThey should just remove his ward hop the same way with Katarina and make his Safeguard have a lower CD and higher base shield while nerfing the AP ratios (this can be changed around)
This way he can't just easily ward hop over walls or into you to kick you. He has to have an ally or a minion set up in order to do it, which can also change the definition of what an Insec is. It is really infuriating to play against Lee when you juke everything he has when he can simply escape ward hop over to you and then proceed to flash kick you into his team.
He just has too much mobility for a champion like him. You can keep the ward hop on Jax because his Q is his only escape, and Elise when she can rappel to her own ward (which is very rare to see nowadays)
salty testi4 votes[deleted]
TotalJerk3 votesWhat? People complain about Ahri all the time.
Lauchmelder1 votesHe's not that wrong though. There's the threads with a lot of collective upvotes because players manage to out-upvote the bias, but in most cases the downvoters see 2 keywords ("Ahri" and "too strong") and will click -1 without even trying to comprehend the actual post.
KoggyStyle3 votesdont forget ahri!
atleast they nerfed my fave champ gnar so he couldent e all the time, hurt my as build more than the cdr meta tho, i used e as a positioning tool more than an escape, now its much harder to escape cc from my laner and keep fighting.....
I NEED HEALlNG2 votesYeah but ahri has to be right up on you. Her range is actuaLly ass
KoggyStyle5 votesdepends if she jukes your cc and pops a q shes half way down midlane by the time the orb reachs her on return.
she can q a minion and keep up with you for a ignite kill also, i dont mid and dont have to deal with her but the ms on q was completely un neccesary, have a good one!
invisiblecat12 votesHer only spell that makes her hard to catch is her ult, and that is on a long cooldown early Her E literally makes you walk towards her
KoggyStyle2 votesTrue and fair enough, it could be worse!
Big Black Croc2 votesHer E also slows you as you are charmed tho.
Sqkerg1 votesQ
Raoul3 votesThe real joke is that his safeguard has as much range as Rakans empowered Wardancer...
SanKakU2 votesIf he's ganking that much, get your jungle ally to devour his camps.
badooga2 votesIf they just removed his ward hopping, then he would be much less frustrating to play against. The whole point of the ability is to move towards allies or existing units, why be allowed to place wards for unrestricted mobility?
Raoul2 votesEverything about Lee SIn is fucking broken, but he makes the LC$ plays, so he will never get any meaningfull nerfs.
PaladinNO2 votesLee Sin is a consistent playmaker, and that's what makes him one of the LC$ darlings. Looks good on TV, and that's it - he gets his fame, and thus can get away with everything else.
And I know what you mean about demanding a more punishing Q miss. I played against one such yesterday. I was Kayle, playing against the new Galio (beast!), and their Lee came in to gank me. He missed his Q (even while I was stationary(!), being taunted by Galio), did his shield leap to Galio, and stuck around during the fight. And his second Q hit its mark (minion block; sidestepping was unsuccessful), and he went in, ulting me and shield leaping back out again.
Meanwhile, I, with 34 % CDR, was still waiting for my abilities to get back up again. So he did a double combo, while I got off ~1.3 in the same amount of time. http://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/1690213851/201309331?tab=overview
I spent all I got, Summoner spells included, and they both survived tower diving me (obviously)...
I was not surprised when God Fist Lee Sin was announced, and I KNEW, this time, the one receiving a skin wouldn't get the skin as a sort of consolation prize before getting nerfed, as is usually the case.
It's disgusting!
