As I suspected, the Gangplank nerfs accomplished next to nothing

HateDaddy··40 votes·2,710 views

Sure, I suppose it may have made a few fotm spammers drop him but he's still ridiculously powerful and what makes him a problem has yet to be addressed. These problems are:

  1. Hyper scaling champion with a safe and in many match-ups, dominate lane phase

Mana cost nerfs accomplished nothing here. He rushes item 3057, some even start item 1056 for mana return and item 2033 exists. mana isn't a problem.

  1. Hyper scaling champion with global pressure

This needed to go a long time ago. You could give his ult a 5 minute cooldown and it wouldn't matter. All he needs to do is ult bot once (hell anywhere where there's a fight) and he's made an enormous difference, even if no kills are granted. And because he can rush item 3057item 3101 and/or item 3158, often times he can use it again within 162-144 seconds rather than the 180. Sure 2 1/2 minutes but that's pretty ridiculous for a champion of his scaling. The cooldown doesn't matter, his ult needs to be semi global at early levels so if he wants to use it outside of his lane, it needs to be a fight close by.

  1. he still gets bonus gold from his Qs passive and he's one of the best power farming champions in the game. Seriously, between this and his ult and bandit applying melee benefits on his Q, he is still impossible to shut down. Even if you go even, by level 9 he will have somewhere between a 1k-1.5k gold lead, and if he builds item 1083, which his lane phase is safe enough for him to do, he can add more to that just by going even. That's practically a 3-5 kill lead that he can make go away - how is that fair? How is that fair on a champion that that scales as hard as he does? You fucking butchered Nasus for doing this at the end of season 3 and he had to farm in melee range. And he couldn't bully lanes from the start either.

All in total, the problem with gangplank is that he's impossible to shut down but you can't simply suffice for going even with him either, because you're never actually even. You basically have to win the game by 25 minutes or gangplank AoEs your team to death. And he can do all of this while simply electing not to interact and farm with his Q/Barrells and almost no champion can shut this down.

You continue to refuse to nerf what his actual problems are. And his problems are game breaking issues that leave his enemies with almost no real chances of doing anything about it. You can continue to make him harder to play by nerfing mana costs, cooldowns and all the like but that won't change anything until you nerf those so hard that we are back to where we were with pre rework GP, the worst champion in the game. And it's because you won't change the incredibly unhealthy, overpowering and unfair elements of his gameplay that shouldn't exist on a champion that scales as hard as he does.

If it were not for yasuos bug, gangplank would still be the best performing top laner in the game despite all the nerfs. And that's pretty hilarious.

Tl;dr

Gangplank is still broken (winrate doesn't matter, it's about the choices you have when playing against him and you have no meaningful choices)

-make his level 1/2 ult semi global -remove his bonus gold passive on Q and he still preserves the "pirate plunder" identity with his silver serpents. -make his Q trigger ranged effects so Grasp and Bandit aren't granted melee rewards for an ability that is clearly ranged. -begin looking at reverting some of his other nerfs because these changes would make him a much healthier champion who gives you actual options when fighting against him.

62 Comments

Sahn Uzal27 votes

-make his level 1/2 ult semi global

This would just kill toplane GP, people would play him midlane and just ult from there

-remove his bonus gold passive on Q and he still preserves the "pirate plunder" identity with his silver serpents. -make his Q trigger ranged effects so Grasp and Bandit aren't granted melee rewards for an ability that is clearly ranged.

Yes pls

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zaXrPo19,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-09-02T19:21:39.432+0000)

This would just kill toplane GP, people would play him midlane and just ult from there

I don't think it would. I think he's a much safer top laner than mid laner, granted that isn't saying much because he's still a ridiculously safe mid laner. Point taken though.

-make his Q trigger ranged effects so Grasp and Bandit aren't granted melee rewards for an ability that is clearly ranged.

Yes pls

Yes

48983507DEL17 votes

Top Lane Pantheon still exists.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

but pantheon isnt even meta he is just slightly better then Aatrox

Troll for Trump1 votes

In Korea, Panth has been one of the best picks for ages

WolfChases1 votes

It's funny how people underestimate Pantheon... Top or Jungle, Pantheon is a sleeper. It is fucking easy as hell to gank as Pantheon, you can basically roflstomp early game and 1 stun is 100% kill if target doesn't have flash up. He falls off late but If you manage to get rollin' early/mid, you are going to stay relevant even late.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

Pantheon falls off a cliff late game so i guess i could understand if he was meta in korea if they always end games before he falls off

TheOvermind1 votes

What do u suggest be done with his global presence issue ?

Sahn Uzal7 votes

I'd suggest we lower the slow, but buff item 3903 to increase the slow again. And maybe something else, because litterally everyone just leaves that one for last

TheOvermind2 votes

Sounds good. How about you make it so that allies get the speed up when moving toward it for great initiations ? Fits the while "raise morale" theme pretty good.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

How bout just swapping the two? Have his ult give movespeed and have the upgrade give the slow, a speed boost requires your teammates to be able to follow up so it still gives utility but isn't as punishing as a slow.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

If anything, that might make the ''ult botlane right before your jungler ganks for garenteed succes'' strategy even better o.o I think a slow makes more sense.

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

How bout just swapping the two? Have his ult give movespeed and have the upgrade give the slow, a speed boost requires your teammates to be able to follow up so it still gives utility but isn't as punishing as a slow.

Then his ulti is garbage.

GP's identity is on his Q, W, and ulti. His power is on his E and ult.

However, nerfing his E will make his other nerfs hit a lot harder, making him have a meh late game in exchange for a fucking ass early game. Just like Nasus, he'd never get played again.

HotChilly13 votes

I mean....winrate is honestly the only thing that matters, not the other way around. Opinions on how strong a champion means jack all, its all about winrates, statistics do not lie. Period. His winrate is now at 48%, dropping a fat 5% in one patch, which is a pretty balanced place for a champion that is fairly hard to learn to play compared to most other champions in the game. Its completely ridiculous to claim that "The nerfs did nothing" when he lost 5% winrate in a single patch. It is fine that he did, GP needed to lose some power, but he clearly did lose a lot of power.

Now if you mean the playstyle he has is stupid and unfun for the game, and different changes need to be made to make him a more fun champion for everyone, then that is something, but the patch nerfs did exactly what they needed to do in terms of taking power away from GP.

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

I mean....winrate is honestly the only thing that matters, not the other way around. Opinions on how strong a champion means jack all, its all about winrates, statistics do not lie. Period. His winrate is now at 48%, dropping a fat 5% in one patch, which is a pretty balanced place for a champion that is fairly hard to learn to play compared to most other champions in the game. Its completely ridiculous to claim that "The nerfs did nothing" when he lost 5% winrate in a single patch. It is fine that he did, GP needed to lose some power, but he clearly did lose a lot of power.

Now if you mean the playstyle he has is stupid and unfun for the game, and different changes need to be made to make him a more fun champion for everyone, then that is something, but the patch nerfs did exactly what they needed to do in terms of taking power away from GP.

He still mains a 56% winrate by people with experience on him, I pointed out the nerfs accomplished removing fotm spammers. That's why his winrate is down. But when played at least 50+ games, these GP mains have a 56% winrate and that's pretty absurd tbh. So if we are going based off your argument of stats don't lie, well boss, stats don't lie. 56% winrate on average by a group of mains is actually pretty damn high.

And sorry to burst your bubble, winrates alone meant nothing. He's still absurdly powerful once you pick him up and requiring skill isn't an excuse to allow a champion to be broken. And I agree GP is NOT easy to play well.

HotChilly11 votes

56% winrate is not a high winrate for mains to achieve...it is actually on par with the vast majority of champions in the game. When played by an experienced player you win more. It is only when average games by everyone is at 56 that it is a problem, it would in fact be a problem if GP did not have a higher winrate when played by people who had mastery over him. Please do look at other champ stats, 56% for people that have mastered a champ isnt anything out of the ordinary.

Again, winrates are the only thing that matters, not your or mine or anybody elses opinion. My only point is that the nerfs hit and hit hard last patch. Yes people who main him can still win slightly more often (6%) than they lose, that is not broken, that is a game working as it should.

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

56% winrate is not a high winrate for mains to achieve...it is actually on par with the vast majority of champions in the game. When played by an experienced player you win more. It is only when average games by everyone is at 56 that it is a problem, it would in fact be a problem if GP did not have a higher winrate when played by people who had mastery over him. Please do look at other champ stats, 56% for people that have mastered a champ isnt anything out of the ordinary.

Again, winrates are the only thing that matters, not your or mine or anybody elses opinion. My only point is that the nerfs hit and hit hard last patch. Yes people who main him can still win slightly more often (6%) than they lose, that is not broken, that is a game working as it should.

That's not true. If an experienced player is winning 56% of their games against other experienced players, something is wrong.

HotChilly1 votes

Then something is wrong with 75%+ of the champions in this video game

LankPants3 votes

I mean....winrate is honestly the only thing that matters, not the other way around.

People have written what more or less constitute essays on why this isn't true. Riot has even alluded to it being false on multiple occasions. I think Riot outright posted that their opinion wasn't 50%=balanced about a year and a half ago but there's no way I'm going to be able to find that. Riot did however allude to this in this podcast at about 48 minutes. They basically say that it's expected that a tank should rest about 1-2% higher in winrate than average because whenever they are picked their team has a tank, which is is useful for trying to win the game.

Winrate is a single statistic which is somewhat but not entirely related to power. There are examples that go directly against the idea that winrate=power. One of the most well known was the phantom Vlad nerf. To quote FeralPony

There was one time when I was pretty new at Rito where I submitted a Vladimir nerf (removing the bonus speed from his pool) but forgot to actually submit the files into the patch. As a result, the patch notes went out and sentiment was that we had killed the champion. Vladimir’s play rate plummeted and his win rate decreased a bit, even though the changes never actually went out.

Vlad was the exact same champion, his power was the exact same. His power change wasn't what effected his winrate, it was entirely a perception change.

Its completely ridiculous to claim that "The nerfs did nothing" when he lost 5% winrate in a single patch. It is fine that he did, GP needed to lose some power, but he clearly did lose a lot of power.

This I agree more with, because you are talking about something more relevant than winrate. Change in winrate is distinct from actual winrate. I'd say it's generally a more valuable statistic than winrate. Change in winrate is almost entirly independent of a champions resting winrate. Take for example Tahm Kench. He rests at 46.8% winrate. If he were to spike up to a 50% winrate that wouldn't be an indication of him being balanced, because his winrate is at 50%, that would be an indication of him being broken because his delta winrate is at 3.2%, which is a high spike for an essentially balanced champ.

GP's delta winrate of 3.5% is significant. There's a chance that he is balanced now, but there is an equally likely situation that he is not and that players will adapt in a patch or two.

Gangplank warrants further observation. It is too early to say if the change did anything yet. It's also worth noting that GP has been the most problematic in professional play, if he continues to be a pick/ban champ competitively then he still needs attention.

Teslium3 votes

Win rates doesn't mean much really. Take Azir as an example. For over a year since his release, his win rate has been bouncing around 40-43% and yet he still got bombarded with nerfs again and again. Did that make him less powerful? No. Gangplank is ridiculously broken still. The ult nerfs hit him a bit but not to the point where it can't deal damage. The thing that changed now is that it is better to get his "Fira at will" upgrade before "Death's daughter" and he has lost no damage from his nerfs. His plunder gold needs to be removed from his E. Barrels should plunder the gold, since it blows up. Blowing up destroys items not plunder them.

Towboat4216 votes

At least you acknowledge the previous nerfs need to be rectified in order to gut the toxic part, its sad cause i really enjoyed playing Gp but he's been getting so much attention from the community along with riots balance team that i can't be bothered to make him work with his changes. If they could find a firm middle that be great where he doesn't completely rely on snow balling into this toxic tanky damage dealer, no one likes those builds/Characters cough Yasuo cough. Although i feel like i should state that i have had minimal difficulty with dealing with his trades in lane but that may be due to my experience with him shrug.

48983507DEL14 votes

There should be a legitimate risk in picking late game champions. Gangplank shouldn't be able to farm with his Q, gain free gold, and never interact with his laner to win the game uncontested.

Lane bullies still have a difficult time against him because he has so many tools to keep himself safe. His W heals for way too much and is a really strong piece of utility, even if it has a long cooldown due to the rest of his kit. He gets an absurd amount of movement speed from his barrels that, when combined with the ridiculous slow, make it far too difficult to reach him, and that's not even accounting for Stormraider's Surge if he's running it. Do I even have to mention his ult? Unless you have a fed Master Yi or Rengar, he's untouchable late game.

PPPPPPPPPPPP2703 votes

I just want Gangplank to lose the movement speed refresh when he destroys a barrel and make his ultimate not global at rank 1.
I really hate that movement speed buff. The gold thing is pretty strong though.

Squidward Dab2 votes

They could make his ult like ryze where it increases range based on rank of the ult

NotSpecialDude2 votes

They could nerf the movement speed by making it required that you'd hit something with the barrel explosion to get it.

hhaavviikk3 votes

why not just add a mana cost to his barrels?

Toastersaot3 votes

The thing with GP is that he went from broken and brain dead enough anybody could play him and never landing barrels to a champion that requires precise knowledge on how to play. He is still stupidly broken if you can land barrels, but his ult which allowed even bad Gangplank players to contribute was nerfed this patch.

Also, some champions that take more time to master should have higher rewards compared to other, simpler champions. Otherwise, why would you ever pick them?

But I do agree Bandit should probably be removed as the go to choice for GP. If itemization (especially Crit) swings his way, he will be busted.

Tannhäuser Gate2 votes

I hit plat off of GP.

You are 100% right and I ban him every game I don't feel like playing him and yas is already banned

The Deckowner2 votes

I ho.estly think his ult is the biggest problem, it is global, huge aoe, slows enemy, AND DOES FUCK TONS OF DMG.

literally with rank one ult GPs use it bot lane and chunk the adc to half hp at one or two aves. one silver serpant upgrade means his ult can straight up murder people if they got stuck in it.

zlumpy2 votes

Why does no one ever suggest "hey maybe the barrels we added are just over tuned. Maybe we should cut down on the power they have somewhat."

You cut his barrel.power and now he has to use ult in lane to do better there. If he doesn't it can become a situation where you can all in him if he ults somewhere else. Barrels afect how and when he ults. Change the barrels and you change his power curve drasticly.

Icy Spectre1 votes

Funny how you didn't complain about his "nope I won't die now and also fuck your CC rofl, by the way, since now I won the trade by just pressing W, let me kill you".

Because that's the only thing I hate about him, everything else is okay for me, I mean it, his barrels aren't instant, he is item reliant, he gets bonus gold only by using mana, and early on he can't oneshot minions, nor kill you, if you aren't stupid of course.

Also it's not my problem to explain it to you how junglers work.

HateDaddy5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Icy Spectre,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zaXrPo19,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-09-02T19:39:16.098+0000)

Funny how you didn't complain about his "nope I won't die now and also fuck your CC rofl, by the way, since now I won the trade by just pressing W, let me kill you".

lol

Because that's the only thing I hate about him, everything else is okay for me, I mean it, his barrels aren't instant, he is item reliant, he gets bonus gold only by using mana, and early on he can't oneshot minions, nor kill you, if you aren't stupid of course.

So let me sum up what you said

-his abilities cost mana (this applies to 85% of the roster) -he needs items (like every champion in this game does lol) -he can't one shot minions early (nobody can)

Alright thanks

Also it's not my problem to explain it to you how junglers work.

I'm curious, explain

EndlessSorcerer7 votes

Honestly, I'm more curious as to why they brought up junglers.

I don't think you mentioned them once in the OP.

Icy Spectre1 votes

Because if you fucking hate him so much, get jungler a campfire and a tent in the tri bush, he is not rumble, he can't 2v1, I saw lots of GP's get behind, maybe it's just because they all are bronze, maybe I just didn't see a good GP once, maybe I didn't play as much as you did, but GP is not impossible to shut down.

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Icy Spectre,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zaXrPo19,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-02T20:13:25.554+0000)

Because if you fucking hate him so much, get jungler a campfire and a tent in the tri bush, he is not rumble, he can't 2v1, I saw lots of GP's get behind, maybe it's just because they all are bronze, maybe I just didn't see a good GP once, maybe I didn't play as much as you did, but GP is not impossible to shut down.

You just complained about him being impossible to kill/dive because of oranges but now you're saying camp him lol? Which one is it? Can't be both.

And yes, I suspect the biggest problem here is that you play against bronze players.

Icy Spectre1 votes

He is not impossible to kill or dive. I never said anything like that, but obviously, since I mentioned that I am bronze, you will automatically assume that I complain about how OP he is, when your post is literally everything about how OP he is.

My skill might be at bronze level... But your mindset is at bronze level, if he is so broken, why anyone barely plays him, because he's not, and there's more fun champions to play and abuse.

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Icy Spectre,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zaXrPo19,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-02T20:34:58.450+0000)

He is not impossible to kill or dive. I never said anything like that, but obviously, since I mentioned that I am bronze, you will automatically assume that I complain about how OP he is, when your post is literally everything about how OP he is.

So, this is what you said:

Funny how you didn't complain about his "nope I won't die now and also fuck your CC rofl, by the way, since now I won the trade by just pressing W, let me kill you".

These were your words, not mine. Now, I could have misread this and maybe you meant this as a general complaint made by people and if that's the case I apologize. If not, these were your words and either way, you worded it in a pretty baffling way.

My skill might be at bronze level... But your mindset is at bronze level, if he is so broken, why anyone barely plays him, because he's not, and there's more fun champions to play and abuse.

He's still sitting at a 45% banrate in plat+ and picked in 14% of games. He's picked plenty of times. And when he's not picked it's usually because he's banned.

And I said nothing about you being bronze, you brought this up yourself. I said you don't see good gps in bronze because he has to actually be good at basics of the game, which bronze players aren't. Bronze is full of pub stompers, like Nasus, Garen, Yi, Darius and such. Gangplank isn't one of them.

Icy Spectre1 votes

You aren't bronze, how do you know what is in there?

Also look at my match history, there wasn't nasus, garen, yi or Darius on enemy team.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Icy Spectre,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zaXrPo19,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-02T21:23:24.869+0000)

You aren't bronze, how do you know what is in there?

Look at the icon brother

Proud bronze veteran

Also look at my match history, there wasn't nasus, garen, yi or Darius on enemy team.

Relax it was a general statement lol

LankPants2 votes

-he can't one shot minions early (nobody can)

Nunu disagrees.

agbudar1 votes

its kinda ironic but i counter Gangplank with Nasus in the few times i do go toplane. i run vamp runes and masteries and laugh as he tries to poke me away with every Q healing me for 50health(shorter cd then his oranges and way less mana) at lvl 1.

i get what you are saying though his ult has a lot of power to it.

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

its kinda ironic but i counter Gangplank with Nasus in the few times i do go toplane. i run vamp runes and masteries and laugh as he tries to poke me away with every Q healing me for 50health(shorter cd then his oranges and way less mana) at lvl 1.

i get what you are saying though his ult has a lot of power to it.

Please, take Nasus against me top lane. I will enjoy Qing your face off of cooldown for 10 gold a pop. Every 5 seconds for 10 minutes, and since you're nasus I'd even run dorans ring so I could keep doing it. You think you'd be able to sustain off that, but I promise you that you are very, very wrong.

Qing your face gives me an additional 60 gold a minute, so by 10 minutes I'll have 600 gold simply from harassing you, and another 500 or so probably from clearing the wave with barrels over and over, and another 700 because I bought cull in this easy as fuck lane.

Then I'll outscale you, because unlike you I can actually ignore armor and I deal aoe crit damage. You simply have one melee range nuke and you have to rely on stacks to make it relevant, all I have to do is farm.

Gangplank is a better Nasus, than Nasus.

agbudar1 votes

dude Q only gives gold when you kill a target. if you start trading with nasus you will go OOM before he does which is great for nasus.

im not saying nassus is in a great spot atm but this is one matchup i wouldn't mind trying

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

dude Q only gives gold when you kill a target. if you start trading with nasus you will go OOM before he does which is great for nasus.

im not saying nassus is in a great spot atm but this is one matchup i wouldn't mind trying

LOL.

Funny.

https://i.gyazo.com/59957c7bce55fa22bb4fb937b01f01e9.png

https://i.gyazo.com/1d9f95d7df062ba680694f21a654106a.png

Oh look, now I get 10 gold every time I Q your face and I have infinite mana in lane.

GP bullies the shit out of nasus because Nasus can't trade with GP at all, and if he goes to Q a minion he leaves himself open for a variety of combos, the most deadly being the passive reset.

(Nasus Q's in semi-melee range) AA nas, burns HP, Q barrels, HP shreds more (and by the time you Q the quick burn duration expires) AA face again and burn his face again. If he fails to back off completely, Q face again. This baby does a shit ton of damage at the early levels, easily 300-500 depending on runes. He's also almost immune to nasus-assisted ganks as he has no other crowd control except his slow, so unless their jungler has a crap ton of CC AND burst, GP isn't going to die if he keeps a barrel in a safe position.

So the entire time Nasus is trying to cs, GP qs him. Pre-sheen, doesn't do too too much, just a little bit more damage than he heals, so passive burns are needed to really zone him. Once you have sheen though Nasus can't farm. Come mid game at triforce (12 mins or so), Nasus is stuck with maybe 150 stacks if he's really good, probably way less than that, sub-100 is more common.

Point is, GP can bully nasus while simultaneously outscaling the shit out of him both in solo lane or in combat. Nasus can't tank GP's damage because his early CDR items don't provide much health, and GP ignores most of Nasus' armor, or all of it in the case of his passive.

GP will dominate nasus in all positions and at all stages of the game if he doesn't lane or play like a monkey or the jungle help worthy of a divine goddess intervenes on Nasus' behalf. In which case he still gets outscaled, just slower. Meanwhile, GP's team is probably getting ahead elsewhere across the map. And god forbid GP gets an ulti that gives him an assist or two, massive XP and gold advantage.

I've said it time and time again, GP is a better nasus than nasus.

agbudar1 votes

jesus at least make sure to mention that at first not after the fact.

you were talking about GP's Q not a mastery.

Theorchero1 votes

Yes please, make Q apply ranged affects, I want to destroy your team with hurricane!

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

Yes please, make Q apply ranged affects, I want to destroy your team with hurricane!

That triggers on attack not on hit, it wouldn't do anything.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

I've found that the nerfs have basically made him more punishable, but not by as much as Riot was thinking when they released the nerfs onto live.

As a Darius main I've found that all-ining GP with ghost flash has become quite a bit more lethal to him since he dies 40 HP faster as the 40 HP nerf clearly puts him at a stat-check disadvantage with me.

Otherwise it's still the same old same old where I get Qd in the face all day and even though I'm zoning him and beating him by anywhere from 10-30 cs he still somehow has a gold lead.

LatetotheRace1 votes

OLD "Explosions ignore 40% of their targets' armor, and enemy champions take bonus physical damage." NEW "Explosions ignore 40% of their targets' bonus armor, and enemy champions take bonus physical damage." Well then, that's a little less retarded now isn't it?

A little Peepo1 votes

I can handle the global pressure (not saying it's fair he kept his global ult where as Panth and tf lost theirs but my issue is the bonus gold he gets from his Q. Even if you go even with him, he already out scaled you and even if you kill him u will probably be even with him in the end. There is just no lose scenario for this champion at all unless u hardcore stomp him and kill him like 10 times during laning phase.

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