Can we nerf LETHALITY and not Champions?

Wukong Airlines··54 votes·16,022 views

Funny how every year. The same thing happens. But instead of directly fixing the problem, we end up complicating things so it gets fixed or semi-fixed after many months.

and I just read that Talon might receive some nerfs. Why?

First, item 3147 was released, then a lot of non-assassin champs abused it. which made it a priority first item because of how loaded it is. Then it was nerfed, but Assassins were compensated with decent buffs and they were still in good spot.

^^^^^^ This was the point where you should've stopped buffing any lethality/penetration item. But you ended up toning down "Shield supports", Reworking "ADCs" while buffing the shit out of item 3036

So not only you made both shield supports and adcs weaker at early stages in the game, you also introduced items that would break certain champions just by buying themitem 3508 item 3036 item 3095

But now that a lot of AD assassins/Casters/bruisers are 1shotting everyone, I'm sure the nerf hammer will drop on champions instead of fixing the items you broke to begin with.

If you want to keep item 3036 at it's current state, then nerf the rest of lethality items item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 From 18 to 10 at level 18.

There's already enough damage in the game and Runes, we dont need all this lethality and armor penetration to deal true damage.

76 Comments

Done2522 votes

Just remove Lethality in general. It's an unhealthy mechanic that promotes binary burst or be burst gameplay.

Sex With Annie12 votes

"burst gameplay" you mean like every assassin in the game? As an adc main I hate assassins more than anything but good lord find something actually legitimate to complain about.

Done2515 votes

Why do you think riot went to such large lengths to delay assassin burst? Talon needs to land three abilities and a basic attack to trigger his passive. LB was made to delay her abilities to trigger her damage sigil. Zed's ult has a big window from start to finish during which he can either be CCed or the target can be healed/shielded.

Don't you dare try and say Rengar jumping out of a bush/ult and instantly nuking someone with Duskblade+Stormrazor is healthy gameplay.

My Heartshaker2 votes

{quoted}

Why do you think riot went to such large lengths to delay assassin burst? Talon needs to land three abilities and a basic attack to trigger his passive. LB was made to delay her abilities to trigger her damage sigil. Zed's ult has a big window from start to finish during which he can either be CCed or the target can be healed/shielded.

Don't you dare try and say Rengar jumping out of a bush/ult and instantly nuking someone with Duskblade+Stormrazor is healthy gameplay.

And look what happened.

Everyone can agree that the assassin rework was a complete failure; you've got two champions who got reverts and a bunch more where you've just completely alienated the playerbase. Burst is burst for a reason. Without burst, assassins can hardly exist.

RocketRelm3 votes

To be fair, they could totally exist with a little less burst if they didn't get counter-bursted by undodgable 0-cooldown point-and click nukes if they took more than 1 second to do their job. Adc being so oppressive for so long warped the whole game, cause that burst was what was "necessary" for them to function.

Done253 votes

This. ADCs did so much Burst Per Second that Assassins had to burst even harder. The problem with this arms race is that it screwed everyone else over...

IceAYon2 votes

Then people complain that the meta is fucked up when they nerf crit ADC.

Daddy Ants17 votes

You can't really say Talon Zed MonkeyKing MissFortuneKayn Shaco Rengar are even close to healthy balanced champions right now.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

Wukong has only been nerfed for 6 seasons. No buffs.

Runes reforged and duskblade changes don't count as buffs.

Wukong has been under the radar for the past 5 seasons, don't throw him under the bus because you don't like how new items interact with his kit. Those those items under the bus. Which is what this post is about.

If Wukong isn't in a healthy balanced spot it's because decoy works well with item 3147 item 3078 item 3095 throw an electrocute in and GG! and has nothing to do with Wukong himself.

Anin7773 votes

Zed? Wukong? SHACO?!?!? HAHAH! You're probably the kind of player that picks squishies and expects to survive in a 1v1 with an assassin or You prolly pick Maokai and go RoA. foh XD

Daddy Ants6 votes

{quoted}

Zed? Wukong? SHACO?!?!? HAHAH! You're probably the kind of player that picks squishies and expects to survive in a 1v1 with an assassin or You prolly pick Maokai and go RoA. foh XD

Nope.

I'm the kind of player who doesn't like being 1 shot by a 1/5 Shaco who's managed to get Duskblade and Stormrazor.

Being behind means fuck all to an assassin.

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Well, to be fair Wukong has been in need of an update for years now. Still hoping with how well he's doing they just go ahead and decide to update him rather then try to "balance" him with his current kit. maybe a nerf if he's doing too good atm, but only with plans to do an update in the near-ish future.

Hyperiön10 votes

Lethality isn't the reason assassins are strong.

The reason is all of the free damage they get from those items.

item 3147 - free ~150-200dmg item 3087 - Not many people build on assassins, but when they get really ahead, you see it quite a bit. Another free 100-160 dmg (barring any crit) item 3095 - Free Crit strike on first auto Electrocute/DH/Predator - Need I say more?

Items/runes have added so much free damage to the game, that they don't even need to land skillshots to kill someone. A simple Q ability and auto is almost enough to kill any squishy when they get their items.

FCJAAAAGOOOO1 votes

Really if they're going to nerf lethality they should just straight-up remove Sudden Impact. That rune has always been and will always be dumb.

There was once a nerf for it on the PBE but then it never happened. This rune is still as powerful as ever and is still really dumb.

Hyperiön1 votes

The new runes are just shit in general. I would much rather have the old rune system back, but make it free for people.

And then just make the masteries go poof, or make them simple, like +2ad per minute after 15 minutes or something small like that.

Runes/Masteries/Items are the reason the game is the way it is.

I may afk9 votes

Talon is busted right now so don't try to use armor pen items as an excuse. He has better wave clear than every mage in lane and can literally just permashove everyone under their own turret while he roams if he has any bad match ups. He can't even be punished for shoving his lane because he'll just spam his mana free E everytime.

Riot already acknowledged that it's not healthy for him to be able to pick and choose every single engage on his own terms and only choose ones that are favorable to him including when he's in lane. He can keep the burst damage and roaming but his wave clear should 100% be nerfed even if lethality gets nerfed too.

Anin7771 votes

Play Swain, Ahri, Ekko, Anivia or Cho. Now Talon is useless. The thing most people fail to mention is, Talon gets ahead by roaming. If your bot/top are bonobos, then he'll get an easy 1/2 kills/assists and return to lane thanks to mobis. If every lane can play safe, then Talon won't be busted but nvm that, gotta get this kill for the montage.

I may afk2 votes

{quoted}

Play Swain, Ahri, Ekko, Anivia or Cho. Now Talon is useless. The thing most people fail to mention is, Talon gets ahead by roaming. If your bot/top are bonobos, then he'll get an easy 1/2 kills/assists and return to lane thanks to mobis. If every lane can play safe, then Talon won't be busted but nvm that, gotta get this kill for the montage.

You're delusional if you think any of those champions counter Talon.

Anin7774 votes

nope, YOU are delusional. Every single champ here can trade safely. It's not my fault you can't avoid Talon's W on it's way back. You do realise if talon doesn't hit the W back and Qs in, he insta loses trade? Post 6 every single champ here has some sort of mechanic to deny him kill. Also rushing Zhonyas 2nd easily wins them the lane. Cho just needs to straight up build tanky and he's won lane. So yeah, you're the delusional one.

I may afk2 votes

{quoted}

nope, YOU are delusional. Every single champ here can trade safely. It's not my fault you can't avoid Talon's W on it's way back. You do realise if talon doesn't hit the W back and Qs in, he insta loses trade? Post 6 every single champ here has some sort of mechanic to deny him kill. Also rushing Zhonyas 2nd easily wins them the lane. Cho just needs to straight up build tanky and he's won lane. So yeah, you're the delusional one.

[RANK SHAMING REMOVED - ULANOPO]

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Talon/Middle/

^ and just for reference Talon has a virtual 50%+ winrate against every mid lane "counter" he has no bad match up statistically on paper or in game. This is in high elo too where Talon realistically faces the most counterplay so stop being delusional.

Lotus Bloom3 votes

[{quoted}](name=I may afk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zX1hxMpl,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-02T19:06:54.075+0000)

[RANK SHAMING REMOVED - ULANOPO]

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/platinum/plus/champion/Talon/Middle/

^ and just for reference Talon has a virtual 50%+ winrate against every mid lane "counter" he has no bad match up statistically on paper or in game. This is in high elo too where Talon realistically faces the most counterplay so stop being delusional.

Rank shaming is against the board rules. Just so you're aware.

DKM Bismarck1 votes

Anivia, Ahri, Swain and Cho generally are good counterpicks into Talon. They can neutralise his kill threat in lane and shove him in, forcing him to concede waves or even his tower sometimes in order to roam... He's just so OP that right now, they aren't functioning that purpose, hence of course he needs nerfs. Notably, to R cd and E wall cd. His problem isn't his damage, it's how he can just pick and choose every fight that occurs early game in this meta.

Dunno what he's on about with Ekko though, Talon takes the fattest shit on Ekko.

IceAYon2 votes

Nerfs to R cd might work but unless he is ahead pre-6 or it might just cause a bigger gap when he falls behind, and I doubt E cd would matter(which one, the walls on cooldown or the amount of time to jump the next wall after you jump a wall) unless you want Talon to not break away from bad fights too fast.

Maybe a nerf to Sudden Impact(like how much time they get lethal and magic pen. after using leaps, blinks, dashes, etc. since right now for Talon and every ad that use it, it is like an extra serrated dirk for 5 seconds without an extra bonus effect, and it comes back every 4 seconds) or Electrocute(not sure, it's a suggestion if nerfing Sudden Impact doesn't work)

I checked and realized Sudden Impact hasn't been not changed since release. Maybe someone might realize this might be a problem instead of everything else like the champ kit or items.

Anin7771 votes

Eh I won't even take offence at the rank shaming seeing as you aren't smart enough to see that if that was my main, I won't have skipped 4 seasons and played less than 100 games last season. But I'll push that aside. This site says Ryze, Kassa, Cass and Azir are "Counters". It obviously has not been updated in a while. Talon thrives vs Mages with little to no CC. Ryze is the only one with point and click CC that can't be avoided by flashing. However, Talon will already kill him before he's able to make it away except he flashes. The rest just die. Can't take that seriously. Do better and stop embarrassing yourself.

Vêrtigo1 votes

As an Ahri main i just must comment. There is no way Ahri counters Talon. NO ACTUAL WAY. Ahri is trash anyway at the moment, a 1.25-sec burst midlaner is a nightmare for her. Roaming? What? Its not like Talon has no- cd free roaming ability, builds Youmus. Ahri totally doesnt outroam talon. Q ms removed + ult cd up. No way Ahri counters Talon. The opposite - yes.

I may afk1 votes

{quoted}

Eh I won't even take offence at the rank shaming seeing as you aren't smart enough to see that if that was my main, I won't have skipped 4 seasons and played less than 100 games last season. But I'll push that aside. This site says Ryze, Kassa, Cass and Azir are "Counters". It obviously has not been updated in a while. Talon thrives vs Mages with little to no CC. Ryze is the only one with point and click CC that can't be avoided by flashing. However, Talon will already kill him before he's able to make it away except he flashes. The rest just die. Can't take that seriously. Do better and stop embarrassing yourself.

This site says Talon counters Ryze, Kassadin, Cassiopeia, and Azir you don't even know what you're talking about lmao...... if he was COUNTERED by those champions he wouldn't have a 56%+ winrate against all of them.

You should probably play closer attention before trying to discredit a site that's widely accepted to contain valid data because you're the only one making a fool out of themselves.

Draven Always5 votes

You can't nerf item 3036 because that would put the nail in the coffin for any Crit marksman/adc in general

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

If you nerf the arp on dominiks you just buff the true damage conversion IE so crit ADCs can still tank bust....I really don't see the problem here.

Hayaishi4 votes

Varus gutted his Q then his items.

Pokemonred2003 votes

cutting the lethality on those items would just bring back item 3047 being oppressive as fuck, because they already negate a good lot of auto damage and they'd go back to completely negating double lethality items. Hell, for a good while of the game, they'd probably negate triple lethality as well. Spending 1100 on an item that counters enough damage from 70% of the roster has never been fun for anyone. A similar case could be made for item 3155, but item 3156 is honestly a pretty crappy item when finished a lot of the time.

Lucian Waifu5 votes

Then nerf ninja tabis, items shouldn't define league and the kits champions have need to be overloaded like they are now to make them viable.

Pokemonred2009 votes

Would be kind of difficult to do that without removing the armor or gutting the basic attack damage reduction tbh (which is supposed to be their niche), given item 1029 gives 15 armor. To do that you'd either have to nerf Cloth Armor itself, or remove it from the Tabis recipe (getting rid of Tabi's armor altogether) and give the basic attack damage a buff to solidify their niche. 10 lethality is a really hard nerf for that particular reason, given it only actually penetrates 10 armor at level 18.

Elohaven24 votes

If assassins can use hexdrinker to negate a mage's damage for a while, tabis negating two lethality items is a fair deal

afmghost2 votes

The problem is that dealing a ton of burst damage is what assassins are designed to do, so they need lethality. I do agree that they overdid it, though. I mean people tell you to hug your turret, but sometimes you're not even safe doing that.

Violet Fields2 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that dealing a ton of burst damage is what assassins are designed to do, so they need lethality. I do agree that they overdid it, though. I mean people tell you to hug your turret, but sometimes you're not even safe doing that.

Yeah but they don't need to do it with practically zero items, mages are item reliant, why aren't Assassins?

afmghost1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but they don't need to do it with practically zero items, mages are item reliant, why aren't Assassins?

Because Riot doesn't know how to (or care enough to) balance shit

DKM Bismarck1 votes

As a mage I can probably os someone with Lost Chapter As an assassin I can probably os someone with Dirk The difference isn't as big as you think, though I think Lost Chapter has a terrible build path, that's a different discussion entirely.

bbQsauçe2 votes

[deleted]

Jeiku3 votes

Electrocute promotes landing multiple abilities. So I don't agree there, but ignite and dusk are cancer.

bbQsauçe1 votes

[deleted]

Done251 votes

Ignite needs to not count as an ability. Problem (is on the way to being) solved.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Difference is now that electrocute is adaptive damage it works with lethality. Before that thunderlords would eventually fall off due to MR runes scaling and it being strict magic dmg.

Irelia Bot2 votes

I would be alright if duskblade was deleted. True damage should not be on items and it is basicly DFG all over again.

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zX1hxMpl,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-07-02T17:12:17.422+0000)

I would be alright if duskblade was deleted. True damage should not be on items and it is basicly DFG all over again.

??????????

Duskblade hasn't dealt True Damage for ages.

Revert Infinity Edge as well please!

Mokuto Bunshi2 votes

They got rid of its true damage a while ago... I'm guessing its not as bad to you as you think it is.

ChimeraQ2 votes

Pfft I'm still trying to find out what the hell lethality even is lmfao

Red Wreckage1 votes

some revolutionary idea riot games came up with, its is basically scaling armor penetration. if you buy an item with 18 lethality and you're say level 1, you will not get 18 armor penetration, but like 10(idk exact formula). as you level up to 18, you get full lethality value as armor penetration

RxO Carmada2 votes

As A Riven OTP I have always despised the invention of lethality, it turned riven into a less skillfull champ simply because you could have a bronze player build a lethality item and completely take 2 or 3 people out of a fight without breaking a sweat, while in the past high tier players skillfully played around their abilities and item builds to work down the enemies health until they could all in them. Excluding season 3 Riven had an identity, she could still be potent when she was behind as long as she utilized her skills correctly but then comes the introduction of lethality and skill is thrown out the window. You can be 0/8 but since you have lethality items and they have squishies on the team, you're going to one shot the squishies, it desecrates the idea of fair skill and fair play.

AmazoX2 votes

Dear OP

Gutting an entire class items isn't balance.

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