Thanks for giving everyone Assassin damage Riot

Wukong Airlines·Jan 4, 2018·127 votes·12,444 views

What's the point of having assassins when even tanks can chunk your entire HP bar and still be unkillable ? or the constant HP bar refreshing mage who doesn't seem to die but can 1shot you anyways ? ADCs items are still cheap as fuck while being loaded and can still double the damage outcome You promote for counterplay but this dude can still pointclick CC you to land his entire combo, then you try to trade vs him to see a shield almost half of his HP bar.

You just gave most of the champ roster the opposite of what you were trying to achieve with the assassins rework, but now that they have that "window" for "counterplay purposes", what's the point of picking them when i can simply ?

Fuck that window, close that window, revert the assassins rework.

176 Comments

JezboJan 4, 201820 votes

I don't know why Ryze is in there, his damage isn't that bad and his stun is super short if he doesn't empower it (thus loosing any form of damage at all if he does).

InfernapeJan 4, 201814 votes

Because Ryze is one of those champions that if they approach a 50% win rate, Riot will not hesitate to nerf them to the ground because of how strong they are in organised play. It's why Ryze has sat at a 40-45% win rate for pretty much the entirety of season 7.

General Esdeath Jan 4, 201811 votes

Because Riot talks about counterplay and yet the champ who is supposed to have a "skillshot" with most of his damage has a snare to make it no longer a skillshot.

wildfox99Jan 4, 201833 votes

{quoted}

Because Riot talks about counterplay and yet the champ who is supposed to have a "skillshot" with most of his damage has a snare to make it no longer a skillshot.

he can still missclick and miss it,that's its counterplay [sg-ezreal]

SancreJan 4, 201822 votes

He could also get a hero minion of those that no matter the situation, no matter the place, will run half lane just to, in the last second, bodyblock every skillshot you throw and then laugh at your face, we all know that minion too well, at this point that evil creature only needs to flash lvl 7 mastery at you after bodyblocking for maximum rage

DNFVixenJan 4, 201813 votes

Riot ruined this game steadily since season 6.

The new runesystem made everyone have the ability to oneshot. I remember in seasons 3-5 you had to be VERY skilled and be VERY far ahead to oneshot someone unless you had DFG and you STILL had to be skilled.

The game has had too much dmg in it since season 6, they only made the situation a whole lot worse, I remember when the game actually took time skill and thought. Before leathality we actually had to think about what champions are early game and fall off later and what champions are lategame carries but are much weaker in the early game. Now we don't even have a lategame anymore everyone just scales. I really miss seasons 3-5 sure they had their problems but we didn't have this snowballing out of control bullshit, games easily lasted 30-45 mins and they didn't even feel long because the game was more balanced now games barely last 15-20 mins, hell sometimes the game is OVER before 15 mins even rolls in.

Riot knows what the problems are but they think they don't have to account for their fuck ups or fix them.

The things I listed are why I quit and I am not returning till they are fixed.

AmazoXJan 5, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gentle Lynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oBUc7I5Y,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2018-01-04T18:51:32.206+0000)

Riot ruined this game steadily since season 6.

The new runesystem made everyone have the ability to oneshot. I remember in seasons 3-5 you had to be VERY skilled and be VERY far ahead to oneshot someone unless you had DFG and you STILL had to be skilled.

Yeah man, Triple Q AA total invisibility Rengar was sooooooooooo fuuuuuuuun and much skill required to one shot a person amirite? Kassadin sooooooooooooooooooooooo muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch skilllllllllllllllll Zeeeeeeeed soooooooooooooooo muuuuuuch skiillllllllllllll Juggernauts soooooo muuuuuuuuuuuch skilllllll Gangplank soooooooo muuuuuuuuuuuuuuch skill

I could type a thorough paragraph about this and completely shift off the votes you have into me if you want.

PopcornBunniJan 4, 201811 votes

" Chogath is a tank"

I want this meme to die. Cho is a juggernaut. He doesn't have the chain cc of a vanguard or the peel of a warden. He has high damage, strong slows, and high durability. He's a juggernaut.

Illaoi Darius Nasus DrMundo Garen Mordekaiser Skarner Volibear Urgot Yorick Trundle Udyr Shyvana

Notice the difference between these guys

Alistar Amumu Braum Galio Leona Malphite Maokai Nautilus Ornn Poppy Rammus Shen Sion Sejuani TahmKench Zac

And these ones?

Now, cho isn't categorized as a juggernaut (or a tank) as of the most recent riot article on the matter -

https://euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

But he has the traits of the top set of characters much more than the bottom set. Singed is another character not put in any category, but he does have a little more in common with Vanguards (engage tanks) and Divers (Engage fighters) than anything else.

You lost all semblence of credibility bringing up Ryze in your complaints about damage. Even in lagless enviornments where Ryze's combos can chain with perfect timing, his strongest selling points in competitive play are his wave control, ult, and cc his team can follow up on, not his damage and not his shield. Which is why his most recent buff has been multiplying the AP ratio by three on his W, because empowering his output in one-on-one engagements isn't going to impact his use in competive play in the slightest. All the while he's sitting under 40% winrate at everything but LCS level of play because the only things he contributes are a coordination ult and a coordination cc.

On the other side of the coin, the second highest winrate mid is Katarina , Evelynn is taking the top spot in the jungle with Shaco not far behind, and Akali Talon Ekko are doing well to very well between top and mid.

wildfox99Jan 4, 201815 votes

{quoted}

I want this meme to die. Cho is a juggernaut. He doesn't have the chain cc of a vanguard or the peel of a warden. He has high damage, strong slows, and high durability. He's a juggernaut.

which one of them have a silence,knock up + slow? or can peel with silences and an insane kill pressure? try to get near cho for engaging enemy ADC and you get 2000+ true damage in your face or a chain CC+silence (for assassins and mages edit: and divers silences are as effective as hard CCs)

cho can work as off tank,peel tank or juggernaut,and does all too damn well

RalanrJan 4, 20184 votes

Hence why Cho imo is a problem.

ŚhunpoJan 4, 20183 votes

Oh, so a champion with ~250 of each resistance (minimum) and 6k HP isn't a tank? Understandable have a nice day.

[sg-ezreal]

PopcornBunniJan 4, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Oh, so a champion with ~250 of each resistance (minimum) and 6k HP isn't a tank? Understandable have a nice day.

[sg-ezreal]

Sure. Darius is a tank then

and Illaoi

And Mordekaiser

And anyone that builds item 3083 even when it isn't recommended

ŚhunpoJan 4, 20181 votes

Darius, Illaoi and Morde don't get over 5k HP unless they dedicate HP items to it. Cho'gath naturally gets well over that with only 2-3 HP items and a few stacks of 'Nom.

LordGeovanniJan 4, 20181 votes

if you feed him 20 ult kills on cooldown

ŚhunpoJan 4, 20181 votes

No....I just did the maths and if Cho'gath gets all 6 of his large monster/minion stacks and 3 kills he gets 1440 HP. Even without the kills he's still getting 960 HP at level 16, for free.

Now add that to the Grasp keystone which he WILL be taking (unless he's running Comet) and the Overgrowth rune. That's 40 HP from Overgrowth if you've killed/been around the killing of 200 creeps (which you would have been if you're level 16) and likely 50-75 HP from Grasp at that stage of the game. That's 1235 FREE HP you're getting as Cho'gath.

Bruisers such as the ones you have mentioned only have Grasp as their option to increase HP (Overgrowth < Second Wind for them), which honestly doesn't give much and the HP stat. doesn't scale with any of their abilities in terms of damage.

That's not 20 ult kills. That's legitimately only the 6 large monster/minion stacks he gets with his ult and him being level 16. So no, you do not need 20 ult kills to get absurd amounts of free HP as Cho'gath.

LordGeovanniJan 5, 20181 votes

I hope you arent dreaming that a 3 item chogath is level 16 and using other outside runes and masteries which also requires chogath to dedicate items to hp to be that big and if he does he ad absolutely no resistances. You forgot Cinderhulk enchant to with things other than chogaths ult to fluff up his ult hp. Since chogath is never gonna be out of lane to lose over growth progress proc grasp every time its up

ŚhunpoJan 6, 20181 votes

Except Cho'gath's ult scales with BONUS HP, thus meaning he's rewarded for stacking one of the best items in the game being raw HP. Additionally most resistance items give HP as well.

LordGeovanniJan 7, 20181 votes

sure stack hp for large hp ult damage and take 15% of your hp per auto attack from fighters (ps only damage fighters can build now days are item 3071 item 3748 except for these 3 assassin fighters Fiora Riven Yasuo ) none the less adcs assassins or mages.

ŚhunpoJan 7, 20181 votes

item 3075 item 3193 item 3143 item 3800 item 3194 item 3065 item 3001 All of these give HP AND a resistance. Please, use your brain for once.

LordGeovanniJan 8, 20181 votes

item 3193 gives you hp for seconds and greatly cuts any damage you do During this only cho's ult does any damage and relies on allies to get other to the threshhold on top of having no ap so even if he didnt use it none of his spells have any damage to speak of item 3075 large above average amount of resistances (and the average amount is tiny) item 3143 item 3065 mid decent amout of hp and armor item 3800 decent hp pitiful armor item 3194 item 3001 bad hp with decent resist stats. i dont know where you got your 7th item slot from or if you hiding boots in some hole but you you also forgot item 3083

OldLoLPlayStyleJan 4, 201810 votes

I totally agree with you. The balance team is a joke, what a bunch of useless pieces of crap.

Eternal TormentJan 4, 20189 votes

Partially this bull is actually true. This pre-season is marked down as a damage meta, regardless of classes.

I just had a game as maokai where i was going full tank (Albeit i did rush Rod of ages) And i ended up doing TWICE as much damage as the #2 in the game did. i was MPV in dps with double the score from the next best. as a full tank.

and ive not once been out of the top 3 dps dealiers as a maokai ever since his rework. something went wrong.

Cho'gath still can 1 R kill even if they significantly reduced the hp you get from Gargoyles active, it at best nerfed his damage by like 100. and when he can deal over 2k damage at a buttonpress, 100 really isnt a difference considering most adc at lvl 18 dont get above 1800 in hp.

Talking about adc, they are the number 1 hot topic right now because of their broken as fuck damage. not op, but broken. So what if they removed vayne Q critting? It just additively stacks ontop of her crits which are bullshit to begin with. Twitch still oneshots the whole team within 6 AA and an E. MF still one Qs with duskblade and can abuse the fuck out of black cleaver for her ult. Jhin and draven with lethality are still terrorizing anything below Diamond. and the creme de la creme, this Ezreal Little fuck and klepto.

i hate the current damage meta. i love the game but i hate where it's headed

rtbf225618241Jan 4, 20189 votes

With the exception of Maokai, this post is full of nonsensical crap and babyrage. Cho'Gath is extremely immobile and his 2 main abilities are on high cast times. I don't recall crit items ever being more expensive. Ryze is all about positioning and avoiding his damage, you'll deplete his mana bar in 2 rotations in lane. And Jarvan? Jarvan is like Riven - Squishy enough to be bursted when behind and obnoxious when ahead. At least Jarvan doesn't become practically invulnerable with no chance to catch him.

AIIanJan 4, 201818 votes

{quoted}

Cho'Gath is extremely immobile and his 2 main abilities are on high cast times.

item 3009 item 3800 item 3742 I wouldn't call a screen-sized monster running at you at 900+ms "immobile".

rtbf225618241Jan 4, 20187 votes

I wouldn't call those items viable against every matchup as you make it sound to be.

Lit CornJan 4, 20183 votes

maybe celerity and dead men plate are situational , but righteous glory gives you all the gap closing you need anyway , and tbh you'll pretty much build it on 100 % of your games as cho . This item reduced the weaknesses of most of the tank champs , but most of juggernauts / fighters still have the gap closing issue because , well this isnt a that good item on them . The issue is they dont deal much more dmges than tanks , but they cant tank and also have less gap closing and less good fight , like why would you pick jax for exemple ? unless your goal is to afk split push but you could pick Yorick instead . Adcs were too op , so riot instead of nerfing them , buffed the dmges and reduces the counterplay of literally almost all classes . Btw I myself prefer the current assassins , i find them more healthy tho if you execute well you should be able to one shot someone anyway , but yeah tanks are too strong , hard to escape from them or kite atm due to all the options they have and they somehow deal insane dmges while beeing totally unkillable .

Vapor Wave VibesJan 4, 20187 votes

Assassins like talon, zed really do need more dmg that's above fighters like riven, jarvan, and lee sin since fighters are tankier, safer to play, can deal a ton dmg and are more mobile these days. I think this because assassins do a little too much delayed dmg while fighters do dmg in a more continuous motion to where someone like an adc can't move when hit.

Wukong AirlinesJan 4, 20184 votes

I don't really want any damage buffs. you can get your AD assassins or assassins in general buffed in base damage, but still there's that "window" that's the issue. it's the design.

I dont know about most assassins, but I play Talon only, I just want the W and R to be reverted.

The thing that Riot doesn't understand, is that Talon had a unique theme, he was the only AOE burst assassin, and ofc he HAD a counterplay since the removal of silence. putting this aside, Talon didn't only lose BASE damage + delayed burst, but he lost "15%" damage amplifier which was part of his kit which helped him kill a single target. He shouldn't have received base damage nerfs since he was going to lose that 15% damage amplifier. They were trying to make Talon a single target assassin, but they failed so hard and put all of his dmg in 1 fkin passive.

SpecterVonBarenJan 4, 201813 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cloud Walker,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oBUc7I5Y,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2018-01-04T08:57:49.408+0000)

The thing that Riot doesn't understand, is that had a unique theme, he was the only AOE burst assassin,

????? Katarina ?????

Starcraft243verJan 4, 201834 votes

What the fuck ? Actually, assassins are meant to enter the fight and leave the fight easily. Assassination in LoL has nothing to do with TONS OF DAMAGES, if you give assasins too much damages they'll start assasinating tanks and bruisers and that's totaly not their purpose.

Divers have the same level of damages as assassins but they are tankier because they are DIVERS, it means they enter the fight and can't get out once their job is done.

So let's sum up :

Assassins :

high burst damages
can get in the fight
can get out of the fight

Divers :

High burst damages
can get in the fight
can't get out of the fight

Tsunade HimeJan 4, 201813 votes

{quoted}

What the fuck ? Actually, assassins are meant to enter the fight and leave the fight easily. Assassination in LoL has nothing to do with TONS OF DAMAGES, if you give assasins too much damages they'll start assasinating tanks and bruisers and that's totaly not their purpose.

Divers have the same level of damages as assassins but they are tankier because they are DIVERS, it means they enter the fight and can't get out once their job is done.

So let's sum up :

Assassins :

high burst damages

can get in the fight

can get out of the fight

Divers :

High burst damages

can get in the fight

can't get out of the fight

This right here sums it up pretty nicely. Some people seem to think that as an Assasin champ, you're supposed to recklessly dive into a fight with no escape plan or any way of being useful. Assassins work in the shadow and pick off weak/low health targets like the ADC. They are not meant to initiate a 1v5... Let the Diver/Tank do that with the Fighter as a backup. ADC in the rear, support nearby. Then, the Assasin can dash in and one shot weak enemies. We win as a team :)

VesemirJan 4, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tsunade Hime,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oBUc7I5Y,comment-id=000300020000,timestamp=2018-01-04T11:58:20.979+0000)

This right here sums it up pretty nicely. Some people seem to think that as an Assasin champ, you're supposed to recklessly dive into a fight with no escape plan or any way of being useful. Assassins work in the shadow and pick off weak/low health targets like the ADC. They are not meant to initiate a 1v5... Let the Diver/Tank do that with the Fighter as a backup. ADC in the rear, support nearby. Then, the Assasin can dash in and one shot weak enemies. We win as a team :)

Goodluck oneshotting lets say lethality MF,Draven etc.. with a Maw as LB. While you wait for your burst window they just mow you down.

Edit: Yes you can still one shot my point is they will deal same or even higher damage than an assassin by simply right clicking.

Troll for TrumpJan 4, 20189 votes

How are you supposed to get them low 4v5.

That all sounds good on paper but rarely happens in reality, especially as you go higher in ranked. Assassins just end up being deadweights except when they're jglers and snowballing.

Don't forget the abundance of cc, peel, and mobility that makes it even harder to kill ADCs.

RiotplaytestpenguinJan 4, 201838 votes

You don't always have to wait for them to get low, you wait for an opening in a teamfight to flank or for important cooldowns to be blown like exhaust/hourglasses/flashes.

KhelbJan 4, 201821 votes

you do though. you need to get off killing damage before they can respond b/c most non support squishies will kill you after your first set of damage thanks to the absurd power creep prevalent right now. So it's taking an extremely high risk by initiating VS securing a kill by waiting. Either way, the real issue is the overall state of balance. Trying to balance specific things right now is largely a waste of time in my opinion. Game is fundamentally broken, possibly beyond repair.

HalcyonDwellerJan 4, 201810 votes

Not beyond repair. But fundamentally I would say that damage is definitely way out of hand.

Brisingr795Jan 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Not beyond repair. But fundamentally I would say that damage is definitely way out of hand.

No it’s not. Every champ has counterplay and the game is balanced around the new runes, like bruh you just gotta learn to counter them adaptive of the new season. Can’t keep playing as if it’s last season lol, positioning and map awareness is needed even more XD. If the damage was way out of hand Riot would respond and fix it and they will but it’s not out of hand.

HalcyonDwellerJan 4, 20183 votes

Don't make assumptions about me and my playstyle. I have adapted. I still think that Crit itemization is out of hand (note that this wasn't changed with preseason, it is leftover from the crit itemization changes of last season) and I still think that tanks are doing their jobs too well. There is little room for assassins in this game if everyone else does their job better and more safely.

Brisingr795Jan 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Don't make assumptions about me and my playstyle. I have adapted. I still think that Crit itemization is out of hand (note that this wasn't changed with preseason, it is leftover from the crit itemization changes of last season) and I still think that tanks are doing their jobs too well. There is little room for assassins in this game if everyone else does their job better and more safely.

If you think Crit itemization and tank damage is still out of hand, you’re still last season. Assassins are fine, like they delete Crit building adcs easily and tanks can’t be killed by assasins. So we are Gucci.

HalcyonDwellerJan 5, 20183 votes

Crit building ADCs can burst per second hard enough to wreck assassins, and supports / tanks are strong enough to protect those ADCs too well so that they become untouchable.

This isn't an observation drawn from last season, it is an observation from games I played this season. I know what I saw and I know when I saw it, so stop calling my opinions "outdated."

KyovulpesJan 5, 20182 votes

Lmao I would love to see a Crit heavy ADC burst a (SA) Kayn . Even Jhin, full crit mind you, still needs 2 shots on a squishy. SA Kain only need to collide with your character lmao. The reaching on boards is actually beautiful [sg-miss-fortune]

HalcyonDwellerJan 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Lmao I would love to see a Crit heavy ADC burst a (SA) . Even Jhin, full crit mind you, still needs 2 shots on a squishy. SA Kain only need to collide with your character lmao. The reaching on boards is actually beautiful

SA Kayne is an exception to the general rule. His damage is also way out of hand.

When you call it reaching and laugh about it you appear to be acting like an asshole who thinks too highly of himself. It's not persuasive, it's just arrogant.

If you're here to have a discussion about things then carry on, but if you're only here to virtue signal about how "superior" you are over everyone else who has differing opinions from yours then please go sit on a cactus. (Not literally, I just like the colorful phrase)

KyovulpesJan 6, 20182 votes

The point of the post was that actually Kayne isn't a exception Assassins still burst harder than any Crit-Adc due to their all round better itemization. For what they get out items like item 3147 item 3047 means they're still gonna be "tanky" enough to get in and kill who they have to kill. With things item 3504 being nerf enchanter supports dont have the shield power to assure that Adcs can stand in a stupid spot and still live. And games usually consist of One tank and a diver? Sorry but no I've never seen one tank hold divers, assassins and a supposed strong backline. But hey what do I know Ill sit on my cactus still dont reach as hard as boards does .[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Monsta MooJan 4, 20184 votes

{quoted}

You don't always have to wait for them to get low, you wait for an opening in a teamfight to flank or for important cooldowns to be blown like exhaust/hourglasses/flashes.

What he said is true in about 85% of games at least. While you wait for those to be blown your team is fighting 4v5. Then when you do get that chance, your team is likely barely alive and struggling to make it out with disengage and then here you are going balls to wall with absolutely no back up to help you make it out alive. Assassins no longer assassinate, they are there for just the sheer amount of dmg they can dish. They stay with the pack, they don't veer off for a flank. Tanks are the ones I see doing that. I see tanks assassinate way more often then the classes designed to do it. It's rather shocking.

DontTouchMyBallJan 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

How are you supposed to get them low 4v5.

That all sounds good on paper but rarely happens in reality, especially as you go higher in ranked. Assassins just end up being deadweights except when they're jglers and snowballing.

Don't forget the abundance of cc, peel, and mobility that makes it even harder to kill ADCs.

I maybe wrong here, but I fail to see your point.

ADCs by design should be able to carry specially in the late with items while assassins outperform early to midgame and have tools to snowball a game themselves. Assassin is a selfish role imo, should you play an assassin you're mindset should perhaps be: I must be able to kill, get ahead to be relevant and to end the games Fast before others Scale! As an assassin, you must also know you lack the utility of any other role such as a mage or a tank. You're only raw damage, numbers and an evasion/escape tool! For yourself.

Assassins solo carry games in low elos. On higher elos, expect the players to know their role in the game, too group, to ward, to pay attention to the map and to actually peel the MVP and make them feel useless.

LegitBusinessmanJan 5, 20185 votes

{quoted}

I maybe wrong here, but I fail to see your point.

ADCs by design should be able to carry specially in the late with items while assassins outperform early to midgame and have tools to snowball a game themselves. Assassin is a selfish role imo, should you play an assassin you're mindset should perhaps be: I must be able to kill, get ahead to be relevant and to end the games Fast before others Scale! As an assassin, you must also know you lack the utility of any other role such as a mage or a tank. You're only raw damage, numbers and an evasion/escape tool! For yourself.

Assassins solo carry games in low elos. On higher elos, expect the players to know their role in the game, too group, to ward, to pay attention to the map and to actually peel the MVP and make them feel useless.

But game pacing is such that assassins never get to the point where they struggle to blow up the squishy anymore. The idea of 'this hypercarry is hitting his power spike late game" doesnt exist because most hypercarries are shredding people with 2 items. The concept of 'The assassin falls off as people level up and get armor" just fundamentally doesn't happen anymore.

The game pacing is so fantastically screwed right now and we while yes a lot of the threads are complaining and critical WE HAVEN'T HAD A SINGLE RIOTER TALK ABOUT THIS ISSUE EVEN ON WELL MANNERED, WELL CONSTRUCTED THREADS. Which is EXTREMELY disappointing.