Am I the only one who does not want Lee Sin to be buffed?

Wukong Airlines·Mar 3, 2018·126 votes·6,301 views

Just because his Win ratio dropped doesnt mean he's in bad spot. He's where he's supposed to be, a champ that's highly picked and requires more time to master than your average champion does not need any buffs just because a jungle item was removed or because he dropped to 48% win ratio.

I've recently started play Lee again, and I'm quite enjoying that he's not picked much around my Elo.

Why instead of buffing him you just nerf whatever is broken both in the jungle and toplane? and many others, need some toning down. Stop buffing champions to balance the equation.

138 Comments

UnvictusMar 3, 201846 votes

The fact that his winrate plummeted after the removal of tracker’s knife is evidence of an underlying issue. He’s much too reliant on his ability to ward hop and I think it’s time to revisit that mechanic. Riot should take this time to seriously consider giving him a mini rework and removing his ward hopping mechanic just like they’ve done to other champs.

HügöMar 3, 201820 votes

I guess the players still go in situation where they think they can just ward hop out. When you give them more time the winrate will go up again.

ZapMyHeartMar 4, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I guess the players still go in situation where they think they can just ward hop out. When you give them more time the winrate will go up again.

Exactly. Before Tracker's was actually a thing, Lee was still a top tier jungler (that cycled in and out, depending on the meta, with Elise).

So what did Lee Sin do before unlimited wards? Good players thrived and bad players cried.

This is simply a result of poor players getting a rude awakening to stop being careless and diving into fights that shouldn't be normally survivable and getting to live afterwards. Because they now don't have their safety net to go ham.

Mast3rShakeMar 5, 20182 votes

Before Tracker's was a thing lee bought Sight Stone which has now been removed from the game. With no Tracker's and no Sight Stone Lee just doesn't have the play making potential he used to have.

ZapMyHeartMar 5, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Before Tracker's was a thing lee bought Sight Stone which has now been removed from the game. With no Tracker's and no Sight Stone Lee just doesn't have the play making potential he used to have.

What did Lee Sin do before SS? AFK in the fountain?

NuparuMar 5, 20182 votes

You could buy Sight Wards back then, lol

OleandervineMar 5, 20183 votes

Lee has a trinket. It stores 2 charges. If he can't manage to function with 2 free wards that recharge, he deserves to be guttered. The fact that he abuses wards for "play making potential" instead of granting vision on the map should be indicative of some major flaws in his kit design.

kasmanjaeApr 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Lee has a trinket. It stores 2 charges. If he can't manage to function with 2 free wards that recharge, he deserves to be guttered. The fact that he abuses wards for "play making potential" instead of granting vision on the map should be indicative of some major flaws in his kit design. It has a 75 second CD....

OleandervineApr 25, 20181 votes

And every 75 seconds he can do gimmicks with wards. Off of that, he has to be like everyone else and use minions, monsters, and other players to dash. Honestly, ward hopping on Lee is something they should have pulled out of his kit long ago, and turned into something like Katarina's daggers are now.

RsViagraMar 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Exactly. Before Tracker's was actually a thing, Lee was still a top tier jungler (that cycled in and out, depending on the meta, with Elise).

So what did Lee Sin do before unlimited wards? Good players thrived and bad players cried.

This is simply a result of poor players getting a rude awakening to stop being careless and diving into fights that shouldn't be normally survivable and getting to live afterwards. Because they now don't have their safety net to go ham.

No. He was not a top tier jungle, he was out of the meta and had a very low pick rate. You are ignorant of how hes actually been.

ZapMyHeartMar 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No. He was not a top tier jungle, he was out of the meta and had a very low pick rate. You are ignorant of how hes actually been.

Did you not read the () portion? Seems like you are not only ignorant, but illiterate as well.

RsViagraMar 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Did you not read the () portion? Seems like you are not only ignorant, but illiterate as well.

when was the last time in the past few seasons lee was a top tier? Please explain

ZapMyHeartMar 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

when was the last time in the past few seasons lee was a top tier? Please explain

Just several months, he was complained about and they had to nerf his ass. As said, he is one of those champions that cycles through the meta, where if the meta is appropriate for him, he is a top tier jungler. When it ain't, he ain't picked.

Back when E-Sports for Rito was still booming in the past few seasons (you can Google it yourself), you could see Lee Sin being picked as well.

RsViagraMar 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Just several months, he was complained about and they had to nerf his ass. As said, he is one of those champions that cycles through the meta, where if the meta is appropriate for him, he is a top tier jungler. When it ain't, he ain't picked.

Back when E-Sports for Rito was still booming in the past few seasons (you can Google it yourself), you could see Lee Sin being picked as well.

so by your own words, its been months since he was viable, and you don't think removing a core part of his kit makes it even worse? Take the time to read what you type before posting.

ZapMyHeartMar 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

so by your own words, its been months since he was viable, and you don't think removing a core part of his kit makes it even worse? Take the time to read what you type before posting.

There are champions thats been sitting in the gutter for years. A few months is nothing to be crying about. Especially when he is viable, he's a nightmare to deal with. So take a seat.

Also, he can still ward hop. It ain't removed. Learn to read your own statements before you start smashing down keys. They simply returned him back to before when SS/Tracker's was available to be abused. Back before these free wards, he still did great. And he's still going to do just fine (as he's sitting around a ~47% just fresh off the change). It takes a little longer for people to adapt to the changes and I expect it to go up in the next patch cycle once. If it was that serious, it would've tanked to low 40s. If they need to, they can simply put a little power in the rest of his kit to bump him back up a little more.

This change simply separates the bad from the good players. For a champion with such a high skill cap, it shouldn't be that easy to play with to begin with. Bad players spammed free wards to get out of situations where normally, it shouldn't be survivable. Think about that for a second and then get back to me.

RsViagraMar 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

There are champions thats been sitting in the gutter for years. A few months is nothing to be crying about. Especially when he is viable, he's a nightmare to deal with. So take a seat.

Also, he can still ward hop. It ain't removed. Learn to read your own statements before you start smashing down keys. They simply returned him back to before when SS/Tracker's was available to be abused. Back before these free wards, he still did great. And he's still going to do just fine (as he's sitting around a ~47% just fresh off the change). It takes a little longer for people to adapt to the changes and I expect it to go up in the next patch cycle once. If it was that serious, it would've tanked to low 40s. If they need to, they can simply put a little power in the rest of his kit to bump him back up a little more.

This change simply separates the bad from the good players. For a champion with such a high skill cap, it shouldn't be that easy to play with to begin with. Bad players spammed free wards to get out of situations where normally, it shouldn't be survivable. Think about that for a second and then get back to me.

He was not that easy to get away with, IE his poor win rate and low pick rate prior to this nerf.

Call me when you remove shaco's escape, Camiles escape, etc

ZapMyHeartMar 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He was not that easy to get away with, IE his poor win rate and low pick rate prior to this nerf.

Call me when you remove shaco's escape, Camiles escape, etc

He was nerfed prior to this nerf, hence the poor win rate and low pick rate. Prior to that nerf, he was picked at 20% I believe. And again, you haven't addressed the points I've made when in S2, he did just dandy without SS or Tracker's.

Call me when he stops being Rito's golden boy, considering a Red just confirmed in a thread that he's getting compensation buffs just minutes after the nerfs hit live. Whereas other champions remain trash for months after they get brutal nerfs.

RsViagraMar 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

He was nerfed prior to this nerf, hence the poor win rate and low pick rate. Prior to that nerf, he was picked at 20% I believe. And again, you haven't addressed the points I've made when in S2, he did just dandy without SS or Tracker's.

Call me when he stops being Rito's golden boy, considering a Red just confirmed in a thread that he's getting compensation buffs just minutes after the nerfs hit live. Whereas other champions remain trash for months after they get brutal nerfs.

you know what his nerfs have been based around? his ability to wardhop. and back then you could buy normal wards, now everyone gets a fuck ton of vision and zombie wards while lee gets ripped to shreds.

ZapMyHeartMar 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

you know what his nerfs have been based around? his ability to wardhop. and back then you could buy normal wards, now everyone gets a fuck ton of vision and zombie wards while lee gets ripped to shreds.

What's stopping him from getting zombie wards and a fuck ton of wards as well if everyone else has access to it? I'll tell you what. Because those that do get them lose out on something in exchange for vision. If you want vision, you give up something. If you want something else, you give up vision. You don't get to be greedy and get both like Lee Sin did with SS/Tracker's.

Also, item 2055 to ward hop. As well as item 3340 if you are that cheap. S2 Lee Sin made the sacrifice to either drop a ward (that costed $$$) to escape/make plays or used it for vision. It's no different now with the removal of Tracker's.

kasmanjaeApr 25, 20181 votes

Most good players then, still built sightstone... But right now Lee Sin can do neither sightstone or trackers.

u suck lolMar 5, 20182 votes

I think lee's ward hop is what makes him unique. Remove it and he becomes another generic assassin.

kasmanjaeApr 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The fact that his winrate plummeted after the removal of tracker’s knife is evidence of an underlying issue. He’s much too reliant on his ability to ward hop and I think it’s time to revisit that mechanic. Riot should take this time to seriously consider giving him a mini rework and removing his ward hopping mechanic just like they’ve done to other champs.

I would be fine with that, but if riot does that, there is a vital key to his kit missing. He would either need huge damage buffs which not many people would enjoy, or a different dash that would probably require less skill knowing Riot.

Darkin HybridMar 3, 201828 votes

No, you are not the only one friend.

AirKingNeoMar 3, 20182 votes

Let me guess, just because you don't like facing Lee Sin?

Because he's a "cancer outplay champion" or something like that?

Supreme Senpai69Mar 3, 20187 votes

Champions with high playrate shouldn't have high win rate, because that means people who have very few games on them are still winning half of their games. Lee Sin is a popular pick and has a high playrate almost always. That's probably why people don't want him buffed despite his lower than average winrate. Because the people who play him for more than a few dozen games still do exceedingly well on him.

But sure... go for the fallacy instead of the logic :/

AirKingNeoMar 3, 20182 votes

Except winrate and playrate aren't everything?

Do you see him picked in High Elo? No. Has he been picked in proplay once? No.

I didn't go for any fallacy. I simply criticised the person. If I made a fallacy, point out which one.

PurejoyceMar 3, 20186 votes

{quoted} Do you see him picked in High Elo? No.

Yes, but why would you know that? :DD

AirKingNeoMar 3, 20181 votes

because streamers exist???

VelasanMar 3, 20185 votes

The argument being made is that his WR compared to his playrate is normally somewhat low because there's more potential to either mess up or make big plays on Lee.

However, Lee's issue has always been that while his fancy mechanics are difficult enough the rest of his kit is pretty easy. Jump to target thing, Q in face, do lots of damage. His consistency has always been too high for someone who is supposed to be "hard to play." He dominated the jungle scene for like 3 seasons or more.

Personally I'm glad not to be seeing Lee Sin like every single game. I don't hate the champion (my most hated champion is Fizz.. that champion needs a rework), but it's nice to see some shake ups in the meta.

Darkin HybridMar 3, 201819 votes

Relax. I don't like him because he has a point to click (R) Kick CC, that's the only thing I don't like about him. No need to respond in a toxic tone.

RainbowIceeMar 3, 201819 votes

yup he's fair now, people always lash at me when i say this. But the removal of the jg item didn't make lee sin weaker or shit just made him fair. A lot of champions with conditional maneuver shouldn't have it granted to them at will. Lee sin dashing past you and kicking you to his team is a freebie when fairness it should be a conditional maneuver where he should just learn to gank behind the target to do so.

Supreme Senpai69Mar 3, 20184 votes

This ^^. Like when Zac's rework came out he had a 37% winrate. That didn't mean he was weak at all. It just meant he was difficult to play. Riot sadly listened to the QQ and buffed him and he became such a huge problem due to how OP he was now. Winrate alone isn't a good stat. With this change, people need time to learn and adapt. Let's revisit it in a few weeks or something >_> Promise the winrate will go back up

VelasanMar 3, 20182 votes

Not disagreeing, but just wanted to point out that Zac's WR changed because his entire gank pattern was updated. He used to be far more burst oriented and incorporate auto attacks into his rotation. On top of that his old ult was a disruption and anti engage utility vs. the new one which actively grabs people and moves them.

They first buffed the ult because it took too long and people were walking out of it. After that, however, he received a series of nerfs including making less bloblets with his Q when he clears. They also added an indicator on his jump to show you where he is going to land.

Thankfully though, aside from being able to jump into a lane from off screen, Zac is otherwise a pretty fair champion to deal with so long as you are warding farther away.

I do suspect your right and Lee's WR will come back up in a week.

RenownedWheat42Mar 3, 201816 votes

Nah, plenty of people don't want him buffed. Long as peoples' reasoning for it isn't complete garbage I tend to agree with it.

Master Van TachiMar 3, 201815 votes

Lee Sin is too strong as he is. Buffing him is just retarded.

Crede777Mar 3, 201814 votes

Lee is too well-rounded as a champ and has no identifiable weaknessess. He has burst, mobilitity, sustain, a slow and a knockback, etc.

I am and have been for multiple seasons a proponent of removing some things from his kit and buffing others.

Jenks3Mar 3, 20185 votes

See I could get behind this. I don't mind them sharpening him up, so long as he isn't weak :(

Crede777Mar 3, 20186 votes

I have no problem with Lee being strong so long as he has identifiable areas of strength and weakness.

VelasanMar 3, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Lee is too well-rounded as a champ and has no identifiable weaknessess. He has burst, mobilitity, sustain, a slow and a knockback, etc.

I am and have been for multiple seasons a proponent of removing some things from his kit and buffing others.

Yeah, I would like it if they actually turned Lee into an assassin or a tanky jungler instead of a hybrid. Assassin probably fits him best given his playstyle (dash in on a target and try to 1 shot them with Q and some combination of his other abilities and R if they don't die immediately). He needs a clear theme rather than jack of all trades.

TorgalMar 3, 20189 votes

Oh look, Lee Sin players don't have his retarded escape anymore.

Please, don't buff him, he is finally fine now.

PhantomPranksterMar 3, 20184 votes

lee sin is trash, those buffs won't help.

WubbaLubbaDubDabMar 3, 20184 votes

i dont like the lee buffs either,lee will always be the champ of mains and one tricks,a player who knows how to lee can easily one shot the adc and the buffs will make him broken if they want more players apart from the mains and one tricks to play him then they should rework this gameplay

AbibyamaMar 3, 20183 votes

Here we go again

MimrMar 3, 20183 votes

Wardhopping shouldn't even be in the game, so that's no reason why Lee should be buffed. Only if he's just underpowered (I don't know if he is, haven't looked at his stats).

VelasanMar 3, 20183 votes

Fair enough... although I'd argue that Warwick is just very forgiving rather than being OP.

Like any other running champion he can be kited and otherwise rendered useless in certain games. As a champion the point of the rework was to make a playable, but very forgiving champion that any new player could pick up and not bomb with.

He also looks really strong at the lower elo's because he is a strong duelist and not as easily punished. Things like kiting out and cc'ing targets (see also Nasus, Yi, and Riven) don't become more common until higher up.

People play him a lot because he's fun and at least relatively easy to pick up. His overall strength though isn't any higher than a lot of other junglers. Take for example Volibear was at the top of the charts this patch, and while the new buffs did a lot for him he still isn't that strong higher up. Same thing.

Humble AatroxMar 3, 20183 votes

Lee sin is a stupid champion who deserves to be gutted in my opinion

KarfussMar 4, 20183 votes

I'd consider him balanced. His winrate among experienced Lee Sin players is still reasonable.

He was the only jungler that was given an item to enable his abuse of hopping. If I recall ward hopping was an accident in design that Riot decided to roll with, and since Katarina lost it, I see no reason why Lee Sin should have it. Let alone an item specifically for him (unless you were pro tier Jungle) encouraging it. I'm happy with him being on Jax's level and can use it conditionally with a trinket.

No Jungle meta whilst Lee Sin was meta, was ever fun. I don't want to ever return to a point where, unless you're playing Shaco/Elise/Shyvana/Udyr, your entire jungle is ransacked and you're constantly camped. That was toxic, and junglers shouldn't ever become meta on the basis they can 1v1 a Lee Sin.

Much to the dismay of his mains, he is a champion like Olaf... That should never be allowed to be meta. He runs rampant and dictates it whenever he is.

WrÆthMar 3, 20182 votes

The problem is that his skill cap was decreased exponentially with the removal of more wards. The less wards you have, the less opportunities to make those "sick montage plays" or whatever that make lee a high skill cap champion.

And it's not just about balance. Sure, it's great to have a champion that isn't too weak or too strong, but that doesn't matter when that champion isn't fun at all to play. Lee sin right now just feels so much worse now without trackers. Plays you could've easily made if you were good at him earlier you now can't do because you have to wait another minute on your ward, which pushes him to a more farm heavy playstyle as oppose to invading/ganking. I know a lot of people here on the boards will bitch about ganking junglers all day and just want to turn the role into a second vegetable support in which you just play tanks and farm until you become unkillable.

Also fiora is not a problem, just going to put that out there now.

Leaf on BushMar 3, 20183 votes

The problem is that his skill cap was decreased exponentially with the removal of more wards.

I think what you wanted to say (or should have said) is that it has increased because he now has to chose between spamming wards and keeping them for ward jumping.

WrÆthMar 3, 20182 votes

Except now you don't need to think about pathing because there is only one option now, which is farming because you can't risk invading because of limited amount of wards and cant really gank without wards.