How can we (Reds and Community) avoid another Cassiopeia/Skarner rework/gameplay update disaster?

metaworldpeace10··6 votes·997 views

a TLDR will be included at the bottom :) After reading up on the recent Skarner and Cassiopeia rework/gameplay update threads, I saw a lot of salt coming from the Community and a lot of frustration from the Rioter's side. The Community is mad because the rework was "rushed" and that Riot Stashu has ignored community feedback. The Rioters are frustrated because the Community has been extremely salty towards the designers in charge of these reworks (Cassiopeia and Skarner) and they hesitate to try and "fix" anything because of fear of intense community backlash, regardless if the change helps or hurts the champion. I can understand both sides of the problem, but I believe we can come together and form a simple solution in order to avoid miscommunication between the community and the Lead Designers of said reworked champions. All potential rework/gameplay update champions should follow a certain path that includes a solid discussion about a Champion's theme and role in League of Legends, a discussion on Gameplay/Balance changes and a Rework Follow-through thread. My solution goes as follows:

  1. Create a thread topic allowing for discussion on Theme/Role A Rioter, preferably the head designer for that specific rework, should create a thread outlining the Theme and Role of "reworked" champion. He/She can discuss his/her own personal beliefs and opinions on what Role/Theme should said champion have, while inviting discussion with the community about their opinions on Theme/Role. The Rioter can bounce in and out of the thread occasionally for a week or two to respond to posts that he/she finds interesting and relevant to the discussion. This shouldn't require a ton of effort or time coming from the Red's end because most of the discussion will be amongst the community, but its necessary to keep the thread alive and pop in every once in a while, maybe take some feedback and implement those ideas into the rework. Both the Community and the Reds failed on this step with Cassiopeia. The Cassiopeia rework thread was posted on GD just a couple of days before the rework hit the PBE. This did not give enough time to discuss theme/role for Cassiopeia, many disagreed with the role as Cassiopeia being a "hyper-carry mage" rather than a "poison DoT" mage, thus the Community complained that her new identity did not comply with her theme as a "snake, poison-mage" A similar situation happened with the Skarner changes. By creating a thread discussing theme/role ahead of the projected PBE launch date, this gives the Rioters and the Community ample time to discuss these vital issues BEFORE its too late to change.

2)Create a thread discussion Balance/Gameplay This is a no brainer and Riot has honestly done a pretty nice job discussion balance changes and communicating with the community about improving on the quality of reworks and the design principles (giving inherent strengths/weaknesses to reworked champs for example) This is where the discussion with Cassiopeia and Skarner took a turn for the worst. While, Riot screwed the pooch during the first "phase" of the rework, the second phase was ruined by the Community. Stashu and Scruffy received some horrible backlash and degrading criticism. This was beyond just "constructive criticism" The comments made to these two fellows were downright degrading, wrong and toxic. Human nature tells us NOT to respond to those that belligerently put us down and degrade our image. This is why Stashu and Scruffy fell away from the forums when pressing questions were asked, sometimes nicely, but most of the time, downright mean. The thread was originally created for the sake of discussion, but turned into a deep mess of toxicity and degrading comments that were not relevant to the discussion. This thread needs to be created a couple of weeks in advance to the projected PBE launch date. This thread also should be monitored regularly by the head designer of the reworked champion. The Community needs to respond with constructive criticism and ideas in order to fuel a healthy communication between Rioters and the Community. The Community is fully capable having a civil discussion, but we need to work on our way of presenting ideas and criticizing respectively. I would also like to see a "rough rework" posted in this thread, allowing for discussion on specific ability changes, scaling and identity of reworked champion. This would help the community see where Riot wants to go with the rework and the community can show if they like/dislike the way the rework is going and provide feedback. The Skarner and Cassiopeia threads became contaminated with toxic posts that it was impossible for me to finish a page without me getting angry and frustrated.

  1. Create a Follow-Through thread This is key and is necessary on EVERY rework. Many reworks go to dust due to the lack of communcation AFTER the rework has been pulled from PBE and launched in game. Remember Olaf? Gragas? Kassadin? Nidalee? LeBlanc? Soraka? Viktor? These champions have lacked feedback in their post-rework era and have fallen out of flavor or just straight up been butchered and left to rot (olaf) This type of thread needs to happen, in order for further balance changes to occur and if the rework captured the original theme. Both the Community and Riot can participate in a meaningful discussion about these subjects. We can avoid the "rework and never touch them again" and pursue the "rework them into a viable spot" by adding a small thread regarding post-rework ideas and balance changes.

I believe if Riot follows through on making the necessary threads, we the community can appreciate the work that they provide and we can give accurate and vital information regarding our beloved champions and ultimately we can help each other create a more healthy, fun and interactive game, introducing a variety of champions who are capable of being played at all levels of play.

TLDR: By creating threads about theme/role, gameplay/balance and follow-through work, we the community can better participate in a healthy discussion and achieve our goal of successfully reworking champions into viability and eliminating toxic gameplay styles.

11 Comments

Matezoide5 votes

Riot needs to fucking listen to feedback.

Genova Fearbane1 votes

Riot needs to fucking listen to feedback.

They do try. But it's difficult to listen to millions of people shouting at you at once. And more often than not they're shouting different things.

But Riot could put more effort into trying to listen.

Kowe The Ewok4 votes

Riot should talk with the community. Ask them what they like about a champion. Ask them if they want a rework or simply QoL changes. Also a rework has been tested.

Stashu did absolutely everything wrong with his Cassiopeia rework. He redesigned a champion who didn't need a redisgn. He took away what people loved about the champion. he transformed the champion into the exact´opposite (one of the strongest lanerst became THE worst laner). He rushed the changes (2day PBE). He ignored feedback. He refused active discussion. He keeps holding onto his changes though basically the whole community HATES his whole reconcept.

Last but not least he didn't inform himself about the basic mechnics of his champion. E.g. compares her to a "DoT mage like Zyra". Or puts burst and DoTs on teh same level, ignoring that Cassio's DoT reapplies and does not stacking, meaning it has up to 40% less damage than a burst with the same numbers (Cooldown reduction). And can be shielded POST the initial blow.

Kingsgrave1 votes

You should never ask people if they want a rework or not. Its Riot's game and its their job to decide who needs one and who doesn't If you ask people if they want something reworked most of the fans of that champion will just scream no and jump to the forums, so nothing would ever be reworked.

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses" - Henry Ford the creator of the Automobile

Riot needs to communicate better on THE DIRECTION rather than numbers or anything else. Ask people what DIRECTION the character should go in, not what they should be able to do or their laning or their mechanics etc., Just what type of character they are.

Even going through the forums its hard to understand what people wanted Cass to be. I see like 2-4 different perspectives on it constantly. Its Riot job to sort through those and pick one that they think would be 1) the Healthiest for the game and 2) Resonate the best with the playerbase, both old players and potential new players of the champion in question.

If they just gave Cass QoL updates, she would get more attention and would have been nerfed due to Solo Queue. A mid laner that shits on people who make even the smallest of mistakes and is basically a lane bully until level 11 would NO DOUBT be nerfed if she was less buggy/delayed/laggy to play as. I dont know why they didnt fix that for her rework but eh.

Vore Monster2 votes

Skarner's rework is amazing in my opinion. He is more of a fighter now and has a great speed boost and a 65% slow to catch up to any enemy and ulti them. Not only that, but the 1 second stun built into a passive is great with enough attack speed.

Cass is in an odd position right about now, though. She has a bad early game and gets into late game around as strong as average mage champs. Buffing her ratios on twin fangs would probably do the trick for her, though.

But overall I feel reworks need to be looked at in comparison to the game's champions with good pick/ban rates.

Mathbalnase2 votes

Riot needs to give the community a reasonable opportunity to have their voices heard BEFORE a rework is undertaken. The community needs to endeavor to offer constructive, realistic, and (as much as possible) unbiased feedback. Riot needs to respect constructive, realistic, and reasonably unbiased feedback and adjust their plans accordingly when appropriate.

Riot needs to give the community a reasonable opportunity to have their voices heard DURING a rework. The community needs to endeavor to offer constructive, realistic, and (as much as possible) unbiased feedback. Riot needs to respect constructive, realistic, and reasonably unbiased feedback and adjust their plans accordingly when appropriate.

Riot needs to give the community a reasonable opportunity to have their voices heard AFTER a rework. The community needs to endeavor to offer constructive, realistic, and (as much as possible) unbiased feedback. Riot needs to respect constructive, realistic, and reasonably unbiased feedback and adjust their plans accordingly when appropriate.

I Main Swain1 votes

can people just give her some time? i really don't see a problem with her, and yes ive played as, against, and with cassiopeias since. if anything, i overall like her better now. to me peoples attitudes towards her is like the reverse of aatrox. he was considered the mega op pick and was in every game; he was known to 1v5 teams and go legendary every game. people complained about how insanely broken he was. then, after a month or so, people learned how to play against him, adapted to it, and now hes considered kinda bad.

chumbler3 votes

can people just give her some time? i really don't see a problem with her, and yes ive played as, against, and with cassiopeias since. if anything, i overall like her better now. to me peoples attitudes towards her is like the reverse of aatrox. he was considered the mega op pick and was in every game; he was known to 1v5 teams and go legendary every game. people complained about how insanely broken he was. then, after a month or so, people learned how to play against him, adapted to it, and now hes considered kinda bad.

She was given more than enough time for people to realize this remake is complete shit. It was obvious in the two days she was on the PBE before this trash went live. Not to mention that anybody with half a brain (which is to say, nobody at Riot) could and did give a laundry list of reasons why it's a terrible rework and Riot's "justification" for it is self-contradictory bullshit. The entire stack mechanic is shitty, tedious, and unwanted, and is the complete opposite of what they claim to think is good design (things that are not balls of stats, which is literally what her passive is, and tied to an arbitrary break point to boot) and they're going to try to fix it by just jacking up her numbers to get people to shut up and forget how shit it is, because they're too stupid to know a single goddamn thing about balance or design.

Never expect anything good out of Riot's balance or design teams. They're mind-blowingly incompetent, and anything good that happens is purely by accident and swiftly destroyed while they stroke themselves about how good for the game they think Lee Sin is.

The handling of this whole fiasco has been a joke and should thoroughly annihilate any credibility Riot has with their player base. And if you're going to come crying about how people being mean makes you less likely to listen because you are children, remember that you got plenty of lengthy, well-reasoned, polite feedback and ignored all of it. People shouldn't have any more patience with you.

I Main Swain1 votes

The handling of this whole fiasco has been a joke and should thoroughly annihilate any credibility Riot has with their player base. And if you're going to come crying about how people being mean makes you less likely to listen because you are children, remember that you got plenty of lengthy, well-reasoned, polite feedback and ignored all of it. People shouldn't have any more patience with you.

lol this is gonna be fun. I must have forgotten the part where I was "crying about people being mean to me" and the part where I mentioned I was an 8 year old. however it is certainly clear that you are crying about how youre butthurt over her rework and your arguments are incredibly childish (really? making up someones age and using it to discredit their statement?). I haven't seen more than maybe 2 comments/posts complaining about her rework that were "lengthy, well reasoned, and polite". all of it was just a bunch of guys who sounded like nothing but butthurt 10 year olds who just learned to cuss (kinda like you were doing...). I don't see why people shouldn't have patience with the guy who is telling people to give Cassiopeia a chance before complaining while the guy who just sits and cries should be taken seriously. if you hate the company and the game so much which you clearly do, then you should just uninstall, never come back, and stop making the community a worse place with your incredible toxicity.

MrSlowDie2 votes

can people just give her some time? i really don't see a problem with her, and yes ive played as, against, and with cassiopeias since. if anything, i overall like her better now. to me peoples attitudes towards her is like the reverse of aatrox. he was considered the mega op pick and was in every game; he was known to 1v5 teams and go legendary every game. people complained about how insanely broken he was. then, after a month or so, people learned how to play against him, adapted to it, and now hes considered kinda bad.

yes you can adapt, everyone can play any champion if they want, but everyone can't love any champion even if they tried

let me put an example "wow this champion has stickiness, I love him, I love his playstyle !!" patch 4.2 stickiness deleted "whaaaaaaaaaaaat !!!???"

eztarg3t1 votes

I don't know about the rest but Vesh has stated he is going to look into some tweaking for Soraka. Specifically around her Q fallrate and her W range. She hasn't been forgotten.

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