"Mordekaiser is just plain unfair" - Worlds Casters

metaworldpeace10··171 votes·7,506 views

lol riot balance team. Time to revert and start from square one again.

132 Comments

Mooninites67 votes

Mordekaiser is just the latest posterboy for CertainlyT's incompetence. Aside from being overpowered as shit (which is also the balance team's fault) he makes no fucking sense. He's just a bunch of random shit spewed together in the loose design of a champion. His damage so heavily front-loaded on his Q makes him easily kitable, his W passive thematically serves no purpose and the active is just a bunch of random stats and it doesn't really flow well, his E is alright I guess although I don't really think it fits well with the design that Riot is going for. His ult does barely any damage and is a former shell of itself and the dragon mechanic is quite literally the dumbest thing I have ever seen even comprehended by a game designer. He has no direction and the only reason he is relevant now is because he's so overbearing, but when he's nerf I wouldn't be surprised if he's relegated to a bottom-dwellng champion just based on how poorly his kit is designed

RISE Shlack12347 votes

CertainlyT's response to PBE feedback on Morde:

"perhaps Mordekaiser can trilane, 5 man mid, double jungle, shove hard with his jungler and roam, or rush mobis and move lane to lane taking every creep on the map, etc. It's up to you, the playerbase, to figure out what the optimal strategy is for a champion. It's my responsibility as a designer to give each champion a safe home where they know the champion can be played functionally; please don't conflate that with "forcing" you to play one way." Source: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/player/PBE/CertainlyT

He recommended troll-ish behavior to justify his wildly broken design. He has no business designing any more champions; he's lucky he has a job.

Shyvana Bot5 votes

Tri lane is not troll, its extremely effective in dota. Just hasn't found its way into league yet.

Battlecast Sona26 votes

the main issue is how EXP is shared and the importance that this game has over DotA in terms of support levels. In DotA2 trilanes work because you can pull the creep wave, and have a third member (normally a hard support) who only get experience from jungle creeps, or who roams and ganks while staying relatively low level. This kind of strategy doesn't work in League of Legends because, in general, League has way less comeback opportunities (DotA2's item system gives a lot more power, so carries tend to spike late and can swing games very hard, and smart item choice/gameplay can win games even if you're behind due to no ability scaling). This means that, theoretically, you could win with let's say a trilane bottom with a Janna who roams and doesn't leech much EXP or something (and roaming HAS been a thing in this game before), there's just no real way for that to scale into a late/midgame advantage unless it leads to a bunch of kills/objectives. Barring that, it's garbage - whereas in DotA2 you're supplying a carry with freefarm, which is much more valuable than in League of Legends because of deny mechanics and the length of the lanes (and the importance of minion control). DotA2's meta also doesn't REQUIRE you to have a dedicated jungler, though there are some dedicated junglers that definitely do exist and work just fine. This means you either have to dual lane offlane (which loses to the enemy's safe trilane, if they run it) or safe trilane (which beats everything except an offensive trilane, and has the tools to beat that too). Because of DotA2's more fluid methods of gaining exp and gold (nondedicated junglers and supports utilizing the jungle at certain breakpoints to farm safely, opening up lanes for other members of the team throughout the game... or stacking jungle camps for a support like KotL or a carry to kill very quickly to accelerate their gold gain, thus opening up waves for other people) these kinds of gameplay styles can work in that game but will probably never work in League as these mechanics are missing from this game.

Basically, I don't ever see trilaning working in League of Legends because there is a certain amount of mechanical knowledge that involves making it work in DotA2 (knowing the pulls, knowing how to stack, knowing how to get gold/exp without utilizing a lane as a support champion like Rylai or Ezalor) that will probably never exist in this game. So, CertainlyT suggesting it certainly isn't helping - this would only work in this specific case if Morde's ally also got solo/split exp (meaning every Morde last hit Morde would get 1x exp and both of the supports would get split exp as if Morde wasn't there), but I don't think this is how it works (it just generates the EXP that gets split to your ally and gives it to you). What he's suggesting is akin to suggesting you play support roam Evelynn in the current meta, or roam anything in the current meta - maybe it worked once, maybe it will work in the future, but right now it's way too risky to be even halfway useful to the game as a whole. Maybe 20% of the time the trilane would work out, but the other 80% of the time they just put one champion down there to get exp (probably the toplaner or ADC) and relegate another farmer to top lane. Because you have no jungler (because trilane!), you lose tons of pressure.

tl;dr: What CertainlyT is suggesting (trilaning, having Morde roam to every lane, etc) is ridiculous, and implying that it would EVER be successful in the current state of the game (or in any soon to come iterations, barring huge changes to the way the game works) is a total slap in the face to people looking for legitimate answers on Mordekaiser's state right now.

Verxint4 votes

Someone on the league forums talking about Dota who actually knows what they're talking about?

This can't be real.

Battlecast Sona5 votes

Hi my name is Ike, I've been playing League since season 1 and DotA2 since it came out, AMA

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

What would you say is the biggest thing holding DOTA2 back from becoming as popular as League? I find DOTA to be very fun to play but for myself but I always find myself coming back to league.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

DotA2 has a much higher burden of knowledge on its players than League does. If you're playing against a character you're expected to know how to counter their abilities and how everything works from the get-go, and are heavy penalized if you don't (effects and counterplay aren't as visibile in DotA2 as they are in League). The most obvious (and most used) example is Bloodseeker's ultimate, which deals damage to you based on the distance you move - there's no reason to think that that's what the ability does based on the animation or anything else in Bloodseeker's kit, but that's what it does. Additionally, from the side of the person playing the ability, you're expected to know interactions between your character's kit and other character's kits in a much more intimate way for a lot of characters.

Add the fact that supports can generally easily set up kills on you early since there's no flash and a lot of immobile characters and it really requires a lot of game knowledge in order to be really fun, since that's when you know how to counter those ganks and all-ins. It just tends to be more frustrating than League because it's not like "oh, I didn't dodge a skillshot stun from the enemy support!", it's "oh, we didn't have vision of Vengeful Spirit ganking and she swapped me into her team and then stunned me and I was instantly dead!"

I like to say (as a joke but also because it's kind true) that League balances by keeping everybody underpowered at all times and DotA2 balances by keeping everything overpowered at all times, and while it's obviously not REALLY true, in the context of this game a lot of the mechanics in DotA2 are overpowered. I mean, Gangplank had a deny on his E for a while and it was literally cancer (everybody that complains about cancer never played against it). The ability to literally remove every cannon minion from the lane for the rest of the game is ridiculously overwhelming and gives a huge advantage, but everybody can do it in DotA2 if they're skilled enough to get the denies.

LOL Spammer8 votes

Introducing new things into league is not trollish behavior. It's called originality. Sure some of his designs are overtuned but he gets hell for trying something new. I mean I feel like the morde rework didn't work but he's just trying to make league more interesting by adding new things that weren't thought of before. You have to give him credit for that.

Battlecast Sona11 votes

we don't have to give him credit for that, actually.

CertainlyT is a game designer working at a fairly big deal company nowadays. Riot (and, as an extension, we the players) depend on him to release champion designs that are not only unique and interesting, but also capable of being balanced to some extent with fairly minimal changes (you want a kit that's mostly balanced in a vacuum, with interesting interactions and good gameplay/counterplay - then numbers changes can easily balance a kit that's overtuned or undertuned). The Mordekaiser rework is basically a giant hodgepodge of either overbearing gameplay (Morde who gets ahead) or incredibly frustrating (Morde who gets behind). I don't think I've played a single game as the new Morde where I really felt that we won as a result of any particular plays I made - it mostly had to do with what items I had at which points in the game, and whether we got dragon ghost. Considering the dragon ghost can easily facilitate things like 20 minute barons, or two tower pushes from complete safety, there's a huge problem with his kit right there. But Morde also has the issue where either you get a couple kills and good farm in lane and can manfight everyone and anyone on the enemy team, or you don't snowball and it basically feels like you can fight no-one. This is not a good gameplay pattern for any character to have, but especially not for a pick going into a role where 90% of the other farmers are going to be a hard matchup for him. Barring fringe cases, ranged characters are going to have the tools to easily kite and defeat Morde unless he makes some very good coordinated plays with his support, or they're stupid as hell and try to fight him. This is not healthy for the state of the game (Morde is a character that doesn't "excel" at capitalizing on enemy mistakes, he basically depends on it) and it's not really healthy for the state of the character.

Most of the problems with Morde's kit are pretty easy to see, honestly. His Q needs to be reverted closer to what it was before, to allow for power in other parts of his kit. This removes the "I hit you 3 times and now you've taken 3k damage" aspect of Morde, and allows more power into other parts of his kit. Makes his W deal damage without an ally but get a bonus with one (not double damage, but some sort of increased damage while the rings are touching, OR make it slow with an ally for a small amount? Speedboost for Morde if the rings are touching?) and boom, suddenly the ability both cements Morde's ability to fight with an ally while giving him a bit more waveclear and ability to fight in a solo lane. His E is fine just the way it is (reduced CD for reduced damage is fair with the new role they're trying to push). His ultimate and dragon ghost can remain the same if you want, or be changed. I think the dragon ghost is pretty silly but it doesn't seem to be the most annoying part of his kit (with, imo, the 3 hit Q's insane damage being the major problem with his kit that makes it hard to balance). His current kit requires you to hit that third hit to really do meaningful damage, and putting all of his power into such a situational spell like that is not really enjoyable for anyone.

RISE Shlack1233 votes

Don't forget to remove the Exp sharing passive on his W. That's one of his core problems at the moment.

Trias0002 votes

{quoted} He recommended troll-ish behavior to justify his wildly broken design.

Off meta = trollish This game is sad.

RISE Shlack1234 votes

Roaming to every lane to take every creep isn't troll? 5 man mid isn't troll? Trilane isn't troll?

I agree that breaking the meta is ok in certain circumstances, but to advise people to do things that League isn't balanced around is trolling. The meta was determined based on where the most gold, experience and objectives could be taken without sacrificing too much champion power or impact. So if you intentionally try to force something that simply doesn't work with the way the game is structured, you're encouraging trolling.

The things CertainlyT mentioned could work in a teamwork-oriented environment, but not in solo queue. And even in a teamwork-oriented environment, those things would be very difficult to pull off simply due to the fact that gold and experience are distributed in a fixed way.

MasterVidallis2 votes

That's such a horrid response to player's concerns about his design.

OxBaker35 votes

I feel kinda bad for their mains cause they gotta know Morde and Darius are going to be hit hard after they start balance patching again.

magic pole32 votes

everyone is a darius main now. i won't feel bad for them at all

the .01% of players that mained morde or darius pre-reworks, however, i do feel for

Papa Andrei5 votes

So me, who loves mordekaiser with a passion, along with poor yorick and mundo

Midder Scray9 votes

I wouldn't call myself a Morde MAIN, but I really loved playing him before his rework and it's just painful to see what's happening to him

JnFnRu5 votes

I fondly remember the times you picked Mordekaiser into Akali mid lane, hit 6 with ignite, she dives , you q e ignite ult, she shrouds and the ghost appears <3

Earl Eulrich27 votes

yea, really would like them to revert all changes and just wait till they have time for a real rework - pre-juggernaut morde had still been a lot healthier for the game.

Hayaishi227 votes

CertanlyT again boyz

Chespin201327 votes

But if Riot reverts the rework they would have to admit they screw up? We shouldn't have the developers risk their egos all for the sake of the identity and future of a champion. That would be ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as nerfing or reworking their poster children Lee Sin and Riven or CertainlyT's abomination's. Nope Riot's balance team is just fuck Morde who the fuck plays this champion lets just have the skin team make a flashy new Riven skin for people to be distracted while we gut Morde. Better nerf Morde to the ground amiright Ghostcrawler?

Silents4291 votes

But they do admit making mistakes?

Even CertainlyT replied on a thread acknowledging he doesn't hit the mark all the time.

Edit- Was going to further respond but then realized dealing with "Mordekaiser mains" is an irritating experience

Chespin201318 votes

He never hit the mark

CPU BIanc22 votes

c9 will go 0-6 - worlds caster

Uva9x6gDhC4 votes

[{quoted}](name=LZ Emperor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pK4rUVte,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-08T17:57:28.282+0000)

c9 will go 0-6 - worlds caster

Are you trying to say Morde isn't autowin?

BeMyFriendPlease14 votes

Haven't you seen certainlyt's posts? He loves his ideas, and tries his hardest and has been doing this for years.

So no matter how much literally EVERYONE ELSE DISAGREES. What he thinks will stay. Period.

Dextix LT13 votes

Thats why he shouldnt work in balance department. And tries his hardest? Yea, tries his hardest to create broken champions.

RISE Shlack1237 votes

He has a huge ego and it's beneath him to listen to our feedback. Instead of listening to our concerns, he suggested troll-ish ways to make his Morde changes work. And now his abomination is on display for the world to see, and it ain't pretty.

KaisadiIIa7 votes

"This champion, for no reason whatsoever, gains full XP from minions even if there are allied champions nearby."

I'm waiting to see more exciting ideas on future champions, I have some suggestions: —Nearby enemy champions have their ping increased by 100. —Mark an enemy. That enemy has their screen upside-down. —Move your opponent's shop to target location. —Enemy champions can't use smartcast. —X champion's basic attacks deal double damage to enemies without skin.

Saianna12 votes

Not gonna happen. Morde isn't LoLs posterboy :/

Malicious Metal16 votes

But he's the Lcs' Boogeyman!

Saianna22 votes

I'll show you Riots perfect formula to balance stuff in LoL:

(Champion(Morde) - posterboy) * boogeyman = nerf

(Champion(Lee) + posterboy) * boogeyman = buff

(Champion(Riven) + (postergirl + waifu)) * boogeyman + rework = rewert rework

Easy math that determines which champions will live a happy life.

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

Not gonna happen. Morde isn't LoLs posterboy :/

Lee Sin never gets changes either so theres that.

Saianna3 votes

Oh he will receive meaningfull rework when mobility rush will be switched to "penta true max damage aoe with limitless range" meta

Untill then Riot hasn't made any formula for balancing (nerfing) Lee. He can only balance in one way.

KaisadiIIa4 votes

R: Super duper ultra slavering of your drakonid soul: Range: Global. Cost: 0. Cooldown: 120/80/40. Passive: Your champion gains double gold and triple awesomeness from minions. Also, your basic attacks deal 20/30/40/50/715 bonus magic damage on-hit (scales with your Q rank) and heal for 20/35/116 (scales with your Trinket rank). This deals true damage if you have maximum [INSERT EXCUSE TO IGNORE MANA HERE] and apply a stack of Mark of the Redundant. At three stacks, the mark explodes to deal 100/150/200 (+200% AD) (+15% bonus MS) (+73.44% cooldown reduction) physical damage to all enemies around your target. Additionally, you can't be reported.

Active: Consumes all your [INSERT EXCUSE TO IGNORE MANA HERE] to deal true damage to all enemy champions equal to 10-100% of their maximum HP over 3 seconds (scales with your [INSERT EXCUSE TO IGNORE MANA HERE]). While active, you can teleport to any enemy champion, refunding 20% of your [INSERT EXCUSE TO IGNORE MANA HERE]. If this kills an enemy champion, your champion becomes invulnerable, restores 25/50/96.799 (+130% AP) health to your hero and slaves their soul, temporarily increasing your AD, attack range and death timer by 15%.

RISE Shlack12312 votes

Here was CertainlyT's response to community concerns during the Morde PBE process:

"perhaps Mordekaiser can trilane, 5 man mid, double jungle, shove hard with his jungler and roam, or rush mobis and move lane to lane taking every creep on the map, etc. It's up to you, the playerbase, to figure out what the optimal strategy is for a champion. It's my responsibility as a designer to give each champion a safe home where they know the champion can be played functionally; please don't conflate that with "forcing" you to play one way." Source: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/player/PBE/CertainlyT

We tried, many times, to tell CertianlyT that Mordekaiser was inherently flawed and broken, but not only did he not listen to us, he tried to recommend troll-esque behavior to justify his flawed design.

Riot didn't listen then, and I doubt they'll listen now.

@Riot @CertainlyT

Kinjishi15 votes

When Pros don't want to play him and ban him highly at World's, then that should tell Riot clearly that it is stupid broken and CT doesn't know how to design properly.

ihaveapotion6 votes

whole community comments on balance, riot ignores. 20 or so people who havebeen selected to live together and create heavily milked teams give the same comments, RIOT WILL FIX.

Xonra5 votes

So within the next month and a half Morde will likely be ripped a new one in bot lane, and already he is worse in solo lane.

Whelp time to go back to the days not long ago (like 2 months ago) where very few people played him.

"Give the balance team time guys. I mean it isn't like he is going to be played at worlds or anything" - About a Dozen board posters of varying ranks 2015

OperationDEEZ111 votes

Well they were half right. He isn't being played at worlds, but not for the reason people expected.

PeponiPoro1 votes

What is the reason?

Dextix LT12 votes

Because hes banned 99% of the time.

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