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The PBE has been down for 2 and a half weeks, first update is a nerf to... SONA??

metaworldpeace10··172 votes·44,495 views

This deserves a HUGE explanation from Riot games. Why in the hell is Sona getting nerfed AGAIN? Is she really crowding out that many supports? NO HELL NO she's not. As a matter of fact, support has some of the best variety out of any role in the game by a long shot. You can actively play any of these supports while not gimping your team in anyway: Morgana, Thresh, Braum, Leona, Janna, Nami, Sona, Zyra, Vel'Koz and J4. Lulu is tier 2, she has issues vs many of the supports due to her constant nerfs. Taric is tier 2.5. You can't honestly tell me with a straight face that Sona is more toxic to play against than the Zed/Fizz/Leblanc/Akali/Katarina mid lane meta that has been DOMINATING this game for the past month.

My question is why? Why is Sona being nerfed over and over again when champions like LeeSin has been DOMINATING IN THE JUNGLE FOR THE PAST 3+ SEASONS????? 0 nerfs. I can tell you that Sona has not, in anyway, negatively impacted bottom lane balance. I don't get it, I really don't at all.

Edit: I know this was a knee-jerk reaction to the nerfs and I know -5 base MS isn't that significant, but she's been nerfed consecutively for the past month or two and I don't think she's deserving of this type of treatment. Riot refuses to address the real issues plaguing the game and by the time they address them, its months behind schedule. When do you think Lee Sin will be nerfed? Probably never, because LC$BIGPLAYS. How about a rework on Akali? That won't happen. How about some Zed/Fizz nerfs? Nah, that won't happen for 6 months. I'm just frustrated with the way the pre-season has been handled. I understand that balance is out of whack during this time, but I expected fixes/changes pretty consistently throughout this time period. Instead Red's are MIA on the forums, balance changes are VERY small and conservative and champions that are obviously being abused are not even on the radar for the Balance team.

375 Comments

InsaneSamurai66 votes

It's funny, the last time I had a Sona on my team I was thinking "Man, does she even do anything anymore? No wonder you don't see her get played"

Very agree on the Lee Sin.

Also Karma. Friggin base dmg low mana cost bully :P

Slushi Simcambi20 votes

Spellthief Karma is hilarious in lanes that lack sustain.

Drogmyre43 votes

The best part?

Its a movement speed nerf.

Meanwhile Lee Sin has 350 MS.

Alljoy3 votes

All I saw on the Surrender@20 page was the nerf to her power chord, where did you hear it was a movement speed nerf?

RedCyclone3 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/01/15-pbe-update.html

Alljoy11 votes

Aw. :(

Janna too.

I hope I won't have to look for new mains at this rate.

RedCyclone31 votes

You should just play Thresh, like everyone else does because Riot want you to

Alljoy7 votes

Lol, I could never do well with Thresh or Blitz, or even Leona. Supports like Sona and Janna were just fine for cardboard trash like me but at this rate, I don't know.

InsaneSamurai19 votes

Yeah we can't have non-thresh sups getting too much of a foothold :P

Blue Moon Wolf10 votes

Galio whistles nonchalantly ThreshHEY! WHERE THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOUR GOING?! RIOT,I FOUND ANOTHER ONE! >:( Galio AHHHH, LEAVE ME ALONE, NO ONE USES ME ANYMORE ANYWAY :( item 3070 Amumu item 3070

Demonsolder2111 votes

Wait I thought Riot said they will never enforce the meta.

Alljoy15 votes

Meanwhile, you need smite to buy the new jungle items.

Demonsolder2110 votes

You forgot that you also need hunters machete to get the complete value of a camp.

Vellich0r20 votes

its more, "oh they have movespeed buffs in their kit? lets nerf their movespeed to offset any advantage they gained"

Ariel the Cruel22 votes

meanwhile. A certain other champion maintains 2 gap closers, a knock back, and a slow. While still having tier 2 move speed.

Platypus King10 votes

The sad part is that she already moves so damn slow that putting her lower is like kicking a dead horse after you've shot it.

Diostukos15 votes

{quoted}

All I saw on the Surrender@20 page was the nerf to her power chord, where did you hear it was a movement speed nerf?

It's both. Before the holidays PBE had the powerchord nerf, and today the pbe patch had an ms nerf.

{quoted}

Sona and Janna have 53+ win rates in all elos

QQ more

And then you realize Leona has the same winrate but nearly 3x Sona's pickrate, same for Blitz.

Alljoy13 votes

Yeah, I just saw it. I mean, I know it's only 5 MS but the direction they're taking scares me because positioning is everything to me, and if they're taking potshots at one of the squishiest champions in bot lane who already has low base mobility, that worries me.

Diostukos7 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I just saw it. I mean, I know it's only 5 MS but the direction they're taking scares me because positioning is everything to me, and if they're taking potshots at one of the squishiest champion in bot lane who already has low base mobility, that worries me.

Yeah, those Leona and Blitz hooks will be scarier now. I suppose it fits with Riot's theme recently of 'nerfing weaknesses, not strengths'.

Hopefully we'll see a compensation buff to her E or W.

metaworldpeace1031 votes

I just can't believe that after a 2 and a half week hiatus, the first thing that comes to the Balance teams mind is Sona. I can tell you a bazillion issues that are MUCH more of an issue regarding balance than Sona's power level. Let name a few shall we?

  1. jungle diversity. Tank Junglers have been useless for some of season 3, season 4 and pre-season 5. This needs to be addressed. Right now you can only play vi/j4/ww/rek'sai/lee sin. If you don't play these champions, you are gimping your team heavily.
  2. mid lane assassins are terrorizing the game. Right now, the majority of the bans are going towards Zed, Akali, fizz, katarina and Leblanc. Zed/katarina can out poke you and out sustain you in lane, zed being the worst offender. Akali offers very little counter play already, due to point in click gap closers, also due to mana regen nerfs, she's able to survive the early game much easier. Fizz and and Leblanc are just stupid to play against.
  3. top lane is a mess, you can't play any melee top unless they have a hard OP gap closer like Maokai or Irelia. Melees get raped and ranged champions pay 0 price for being ranged.

These are just a few issues that came to my head, I'm sure there are many more, but the TLDR is these problems are MUCH more of a balance issue than Sona's power level.

supes the lost20 votes

Zed "Balance is weakness."

RiotJag74 votes

Hey Metaworldpeace10. You were great in the '10 NBA finals. Big fan.

Anyway, let's talk about Sona for a bit. I can definitely appreciate the perspective that she isn't really crowding out support selection diversity. That said, we want to stay on top of the successes and shortcomings of all of our champion reworks, and we feel that some of Sona's gameplay patterns are not the most healthy experience for bot lane. Fighting Sona has a lot of strategic depth that you talk about (pick hard engage or burst characters like Leona to fight her), but we want counterplay to extend past champion select and still be relevant tactically (in lane). The MS change is intended to give enemies without extremely strong engagement capabilities a fair shot at fighting Sona, without exaggerating her weaknesses to hard engage that something like a base HP/armor adjustment would do.

Understandably, Sona isn't perceived as particularly strong, given that she isn't being picked every game (especially in competitive play), and does not seem like she is taking over games that she is in. That said, we have a lot of tools and data we use for examining the game, and in addition to some of the play pattern issues I mentioned, we do feel that she is on the strong side for supports for a wide range of ELOs. Keep in mind, this is intended to be a pretty small nerf overall.

Now let's talk about a few of the other issues you mentioned.

  1. Jungle diversity is an issue we agree we can help improve. Next patch you'll see some movement towards what you're talking about (for instance, Hecarim and Skarner are getting a little love).

  2. There are some counterplay issues with a few assassins in our game. These problems are pretty complex ones to solve, and some of the champions you mention definitely need some changes to stay healthy (I think Zed is probably at the top of that list right now).

  3. Top lane is a much bigger issue. There are so many factors involved here (power of Teleport, relevance of Dragon, power of Marksmen vs Fighters, etc.) that this is a larger scope problem that would take multiple patches to work on. But you definitely make a great point, there are some issues in champion diversity top lane and we need to do some work on that.

DrCyanide23 votes

Maybe you can help me understand some of what's going on with Sona.

She got her re-work, and the general concensus was that many/most Sona players didn't like it. The stated reason for the re-work was that Sona was playing too passively, had too much hidden power, etc.

Since then, Sona has been forced to play a more agressive style. This style has focused a lot on her Q, and it could be argued that that was the only part of Sona's old kit that got buffed. This has resulted in many Sona players I know considering Lich Bane to be a manditory item. These combine to make Sona forcused on poking and dealling damage, rather than healing/giving move speed boosts.

The nerfs seem focused on making this Agressive Sona more of a Passive Sona. So why not partially undo some of the changes implemented in the re-work? Reducing the cooldown on her heal, increasing her aura ranges, etc. are ways that this could be done. This would appeal to the Sona players who liked her old play style, and encourage players to play a bit further back. Players who still want to play her like an AP Mid can do so, but have other trade offs.

RiotJag41 votes

The curious point here to me is that you label the re-work as a general consensus towards dislike. I respect your opinion on the topic, but one of the interesting parts of being on our balance team is that we get to hear a ton of perspectives on the various changes we make to the game, and I have heard plenty of Sona players express both approval on the re-work as well.

I think a lot of the players in this thread would argue that we should make changes to Sona starting from the viewpoint that the rework is a failure. Could you tell me why you think Sona's current kit has shifted power into the Q, compared to the older version? What changes specifically seem like they have gained or lost power? Can you explain why you think Lich Bane should be her emphasis over traditional support items?

HowPlayGAEM50 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3NL0vjdZ,comment-id=0011000200020000,timestamp=2015-01-07T00:33:30.274+0000)

The curious point here to me is that you label the re-work as a general consensus towards dislike. I respect your opinion on the topic, but one of the interesting parts of being on our balance team is that we get to hear a ton of perspectives on the various changes we make to the game, and I have heard plenty of Sona players express both approval on the re-work as well.

I think a lot of the players in this thread would argue that we should make changes to Sona starting from the viewpoint that the rework is a failure. Could you tell me why you think Sona's current kit has shifted power into the Q, compared to the older version? What changes specifically seem like they have gained or lost power? Can you explain why you think Lich Bane should be her emphasis over traditional support items?

I'm not the person you quoted, but I'll contribute anyway:

  • The only form of opinion I see is public forum: here and reddit. PBE reaction to the Sona rework was negative (go and look yourself), the boards here in general view the rework negatively in varying degrees. Only a minority of posters consider her OP and super fun, but those people usually end up not being Sona players or even bot-laners.

  • You (Riot) have always used the "forums are only a tiny part of feedback" excuse. It gets tiring after a while, since we have never in all these years deduced who are these mystical feedback contributors that approve of your questionable decisions. I'll be honest with you, I don't think there is "a ton of perspectives". I think there's the Riot way or No way, with a clever smokescreen thrown in to pacify the forum rabble.

  • Why her current kit has shifted power into Q: Uhh, is this a serious question? You nerfed W and E cooldowns by 3 and 5 seconds respectively, nerfed E's range by 700, nerfed W's healing. The shield is... decent with large amounts of AP. Large amounts of AP is something that should be reserved for mages, whereas supports should be using support item, except Sona's base effects fall off HARD without AP.

  • Lich bane should NOT be her emphasis, that is what your changes pigeonholed her into. The only fun/satisfying Sona is a nuke Sona; this is YOUR fault.

It Is I Emoto10 votes

It's easy to tell why; It synthesizes way too well with her passive on hit damage from her Q (sorry for the confusion, abit tired here in germany). Powerchord is one of Sonas strongest abilities, mostly of her lack of any offensive spells pre-6. The new on-hit damage simply forces Sona players to use it, since the mana would be wasted if she don't use it at all. Sona had previously to sit on her Q stance to empower her allies, and don't forced her to auto attack each 7 seconds previously, and there is for now no real counterplay to that aggressive playstyle.

With this extra on-hit damage, Lich Bane became a top-tier item for Sonas new aggressive playstyle, allowing her to harrass pretty well with it. Before the nerf of the Q scaling, it had a 0.25 AP scaling, in addition with the 0.5 AP scaling of the Lich Bane, she did with her Q scaling and Lich Bane scaling 0.75 AP to magic damage with an auto attack, wich was the same scaling as pre-nerf Lich Bane. In addition with her base scalings and extra ultimate damage, she does an great amount of on-hit damage.

And sadly the worst part about it is: There is so far barley to no counterplay against Auto Attacks. If Sona throws at you that on-hit damage + lich bane damage + powerchord, you can't do anything to stop it, making her a frustrating champion to play against, and as Sona player, I don't like the aggressive playstyle of her rework as well. She was supposed to be a champion with no defensive peeling tools, but instead did boost passively everyone around her, wich made her extremly unique, but with the "remove auras" thing that we're going through..

RiotJag27 votes

Nice analysis.

One of the goals of the rework was to make Sona a little more interactive and take more risks to get the full power out of her spells. The interesting point you bring to me here is that you feel the current aggressive playstyle for Sona is not correct for the character, but if you look through the thread you see a lot of people concerned that a passive playstyle feels less interesting to them as well. In addition to the playstyle differences you mention, it's curious to me whether or not the new method by which she expresses power in her abilities (i.e. in more visible '"snuggle" zones vs the older auras) feels underwhelming for the Sona players dissatisfied with the rework, or if it is more about the power of the abilities themselves (e.g. "the mana/heal values on W are too low").

RedCyclone25 votes

It's not that we don't like her aggressive playstyle It's that you deem it unhealthy for seeming no other reason that she is a support champion

Old Sona had the ability to be a lane bully when she needed to (during laning) but that damage did nothing lategame Instead she could focus on support items and still be decent due to her base values being what a support needs, she had less potency lategame then she does now, but she was also 5 times tankier (No joke)

We like Sona for her damage, being a lane bully is important and it's fun, we don't want Sona to become a un-iterative champion who sticks behind her team and then dies instantly after her team dies or just AFK's at the fountain because they do nothing alone

Litchbane has always been a item Sona could buy and do well with, but we didn't do it before the rework as much because we thought that support items played a better role then being a 1 trick pony, but now that 1 trick is all she has

It Is I Emoto8 votes

The problem is, that her current auras have no real benifits. Her Q synthesizes well with her powerchord + lich bane, while her W and E look quite bland compared to the offensive style.. Her shield is extremly hard to utilize, because of it's short duration and her E is extremly selfish, because Sona has the speed buff for the whole duration, while allies have it only for 1.5 seconds. If I use it as Sona next to an ally, I fly with an extreme speed boost, while my ally is a bit behind me or even too slow to keep with me (mostly with mobi-boots).

The "snuggle zones" are not a bad idea, but they're extremly small for now, and range buffs would be ideal for them, since Sona is like a glass figure; extremly fragile and easy to break. Sona is putting herself in danger if she goes closer to combat, so her allies can actually benifit from them, but sadly, what the most agree with, is that her auras have way too horrible base stats to build actually a bit tanky for Sona. Right now she's forced to build ability power, while other similar supports like Nami and Janna have decent to good base stats to their heals/shields/speed boosts.

But honestly from me, I'm open minded to a more interactive kit for Sona, but the current one does not suit her. I'm a big fan of her, and as someone who actually did read her lore, she's more of a passive person, who's real power is in everything she plays, but right now everything is way too focused on her on-hit damage.

Gorzke19 votes

The main problem with Sona is that you made her a MAGE instead of a SUPPORT.

Before she had three different playstiles, AGGRESIVE Support (Max Q), PROTECTIVE Support (Max W), PLAYMAKER Support (Max E). Right now you can only play her as a MAGE, because:

  • Maxing W makes her get Out of Mana extremely quickly, and isn't usefull to sustain the lane comparing to any other sustain support of the game

  • Maxing E is useless. 1% Movement Speed per Level.

You are forced to play Sona just in a single way (MAGE), Poking and stacking AP to be usefull.

The Yetii Rider6 votes

The heal and mana values on W are too low. It's really easy to go oom in lane as Sona especially if you max Aria of Perseverance. The ability does not feel satisfying to use anymore. I can pay 80 mana to give myself and my ally up to 45 health at level 1 with no AP, so a max of 90 health restored for 80 mana if I use it when both of us would be at the exact precipice of death.

Here's the problem. You've created two "optimal use cases" for Aria of Perseverance. If you're being hit, you want the shield. if you're not being hit, you want the heal. You've leaned Sona towards the shield aspect, but by retaining the heal aspect instead of making it purely a shield, players still want to use it when its up for healing and stacking Power Chord. But that's very expensive, particularly when mana regen items are so poor and CRESCENDO COSTS 200 MANA.

Aria feels unsatisfying to me every time I use it. I don't value the damage reduction because I can't see its power in action. I don't value the heal because I'm looking at the discrepancy between my mana bar and my health bar and it's awful. I don't value the shield because it pops really easily.

Pika31012 votes

it's curious to me whether or not the new method by which she expresses power in her abilities (i.e. in more visible '"snuggle" zones vs the older auras) feels underwhelming for the Sona players dissatisfied with the rework, or if it is more about the power of the abilities themselves (e.g. "the mana/heal values on W are too low").

It's definitely both of these. Her auras and identity were removed and replaced with these weak and unimaginative "Malphite ult here zones." They are weaker than her auras:

  • Q does not benefit most of her allies, save the ADC in almost all situations, this requires roughly ~1250 AP to make up for the discrepancy, including carrying the slack
  • Q does not proc on structures
  • W's duration is too short be of any significance and the weak shield requires roughly 550850 AP to be on par with its old armor/MR, or rather ~700 to average it out
  • E's aura was removed with no compensation, over 300 AP is necessary for the active to fill the void
  • E does not effect minions, since it doesn't exist anymore

Despite having her auras removed and replaced with weaker effects, her actives and passive were nerfed additionally:

  • Staccato nerfed by 50% and soon to be 60%
  • Hymn nerfed by 20%
  • Aria nerfed by 67%
  • Celerity remained the same, at least as far as the active is concerned

But wait, that's not all! Order now and we'll throw in HP nerfs, CD nerfs and mana cost nerfs all Free of Charge!

Seriously though, when you add the longer CDs and mana costs into the equation, this is what you ACTUALLY get:

  • Hymn bolt effectiveness reduced by 31%
  • Aria healing effectiveness reduced by 95.33%
  • Celerity effectiveness reduced by 71.43%

As a math major, I've been doing more and more countless calculations of all of Sona's stats since the July 30th nerfs. My numbers just become more detailed and precise as time continues to pass.

Abyssphere15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3NL0vjdZ,comment-id=0011000200020000,timestamp=2015-01-07T00:33:30.274+0000)

The curious point here to me is that you label the re-work as a general consensus towards dislike. I respect your opinion on the topic, but one of the interesting parts of being on our balance team is that we get to hear a ton of perspectives on the various changes we make to the game, and I have heard plenty of Sona players express both approval on the re-work as well.

I think a lot of the players in this thread would argue that we should make changes to Sona starting from the viewpoint that the rework is a failure. Could you tell me why you think Sona's current kit has shifted power into the Q, compared to the older version? What changes specifically seem like they have gained or lost power? Can you explain why you think Lich Bane should be her emphasis over traditional support items?

The main reason it feels like power is on her Q to me is that her W's aura (the shield) is too short-lived, to the point that the enemy team in early skirmishes can very easily afford to just briefly back off to save mana until it's gone. If it lasted longer, even with its current numbers, it would feel less pointless/ignorable. Also, her E is unsatisfying because it does so little for her team. It's mostly good for Sona herself getting around places.

And her non-Q Power Chords are very good but are situational, so you mainly find yourself using the Q one.

For me the problem is that only her ult and Q feel very satisfying to use. All of her auras feel terribly mediocre too; to the point where I don't feel bad at all swapping between them in very small time frames. Q's aura is very pointless, W's shield is so short that it feels like you've done nothing for your team and E is... whatever. I find myself trying to tag my teammates with the aura and then immediately getting out of aura range because I'm moving so much faster, which means I have to stop moving to let them catch up so I can give them other auras.

RiotJag28 votes

Nice explanation.

The changes we're putting in this PBE cycle for Sona will be going out with the next patch, but hearing opinions from Sona players and seeing this discussion is very valuable for us in the future if we need to reexamine the state she's in.

The feedback regarding how players feel that so much of her power is weighted in her Q is useful. Also agreed regarding Q Power Chord pushing out other choices (this is part of what the changes are supposed to address, but we may need more work here).

I also want to thank everyone for contributing your view in this thread (particularly the constructive posts...); improving communication with our players is something I always want to be working on.

HowPlayGAEM16 votes

Also agreed regarding Q Power Chord pushing out other choices (this is part of what the changes are supposed to address, but we may need more work here).

Just to clarify in case you misunderstand: Nerfing the Q powerchord so heavily just to force players to use the other powerchords is not balance. Not saying that's what you'll do, just... keep it in mind.

That is all.

RedCyclone6 votes

Exactly, as you see from the past, this clearly did not work at all with Kha'zix's evolution, will not work for Sona Will just make us not use that ability anymore

Lilybet11 votes

Will just make us not pick Sona anymore

Fixed that for you.

Chromatic Eagle8 votes

That's probably exactly what they're going to do.

Circuit Bear36 votes

So what you are saying is that what everyone has been stating is true. The PBE means jack all in actual opinions and is only used as a demo platform of what is to come.

Cool. So only Lee Sin mains have opinions that matter.

RedCyclone29 votes

Public Beta Environment We would love to hear your feedback...So we can laugh at you as we haphazardly do whatever we want with no reason whatsoever

Unless you are a Lee Sin main, cus no one is more right then our special little snowflakes

The Yetii Rider16 votes

Well if you want to improve communication with us...where is Fearless? I thought Fearless was supposed to be in charge of Sona?

Also, if you feel like Power Chord Staccato is pushing out Dimuendo and Detempo (no surprise, paying 165 mana for a 40% slow that I have to be in auto range to use and still have to deal with Sona's auto attack delay before I can move when it really feels like it should be a fire and forget so I can keep running to actually USE the slow), perhaps you should be buffing those to compensate, so that Sona players can appreciate the power better? Nerfing Power Chord Staccato isn't going to make anyone appreciate Detempo or Dimuendo better. They cost exorbitant amounts of mana. They need to be good for what you give up.

Vesarixx16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3NL0vjdZ,comment-id=0011000200020000000b0000,timestamp=2015-01-07T01:42:08.049+0000)

The changes we're putting in this PBE cycle for Sona will be going out with the next patch

This makes it sound like it doesn't matter what the response from players is at all to be honest.

I think part of the reason Q power chord seems to be crowding out other power chords might partially have to do with availability, before the rework Sona had static cool downs across all of her basic abilities, allowing her to cycle fairly well between spells and select a different power chord depending on the situation, now if she is sitting at 2-3 stacks and has just used all of her abilities, Q will pretty much always be the first one off cool down, making it a lot easier to just use staccato rather than tempo or diminuendo in a team fight scenario when the decision might need to be made quickly and E might be on cool down for another 5 seconds.

Tempo and to a greater degree diminuendo have always been a bit lacking in terms of visibility as well, you tend to notice health chunking first out of all the effects, the slow is secondary while diminuendo is fairly hard to notice, even if you've been hit by it.

During the initial rework I suggested an addition to Sona's passive that where she could restore some mana and generate stacks from normal auto attacks against champions to enhance her basic abilities, similar to the interaction Soraka has with Q and W now, more stacks would mean a greater heal, more damage on Q, more speed on E, making Sona more powerful if she pokes in situations where she is at risk of having damage traded back more easily.

RedCyclone30 votes

Riot just don't care

simple explanation is, she isn't played in e-sports and if she did they would make it so she isn't But in ARAM shes very good and not fun to play against, haphazard nerfing her without caring about the impact on SR is right up their god damn alley

I quit this game, and I hope other Sona players do too, we know when we just are not needed, I played since the start of Season 1 and I am just sick of the champion bias that Riot has, I give up

Pvt Yong Tai13 votes

I agree. I am just so disheartened by the way Riot has been handling the game since Season 3. Champs that should get nerfed don't, champs that shouldn't do. Power creeping with no sight of stopping, drastic lack of communication and reactive development compared to season 2 despite more and better resources...

I haven't given a single cent to Riot and I never will. I had tons of fun in Season 2 but suddenly in Season 3 LoL took a turn for the worse and I quit before they enticed my wallet. I come back in Season 4 because unfortunately, Riot has cemented this game as the general "go-to" game among friends and family, so any time there's a social gaming event, LoL pops up first. But to my surprise (or not) none of my favorite champions are loved any longer. Annie is too short-ranged and immobile compared to other comparable burst mages. Veigar is too late-game oriented, a high-risk low-reward champion in this fast-paced meta compared to other comparable, safer picks. Warwick gets wrecked by CC, which every single new champion has, and gets shredded by ADCs even when building off-tank. He got a glimpse of glory due to the new broken jungle items, and then gets nerfed in 5 different ways all at once (both jungle items, W duration, ult damage, and Krugs ability). Meanwhile Lee loses nothing.

I have had to reset my entire champion roster twice already. Both times because Riot broke the champs I loved into itty bitty pieces until they were no longer suitable for equal-to-equal skill match ups in higher level play. Like Warwick, they've made comebacks here and there, but Riot is always there to put them right back in line. They've done this for years. I give up. I'm playing the champs Riot wants now. I hope they're happy. Because I'm not.

Norscout29 votes

Meanwhile....Fizz

Juggernaut Jesus28 votes

Lee is dominating? Better nerf Sona, that'll show him!

Nausicäa 19 votes

Ya Riot seems to have an irrational hate for certain champions. Pretty much the only explanation for why certain champions get nerfed over and over when they arent even top tier.

I cant remember the last time i saw someone even pick Sona.

Superdum3 votes

This just on PBE, no need bring all this hate when it has not been set in stone.

It Is I Emoto13 votes

Well, they did the heal nerf on her w, and still didn't reverted the Q nerf on the pbe, seems pretty much to be set in stone.

Sightless6626 votes

Then when should we complain? When it arrives and it's too late for our opinions to change it? There is no potential gain from waiting to bring up a problem.

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