What if Sejuani had Lee Sin's pick rate and winrate? ( 35% PR and 51% WR)

metaworldpeace10·Nov 28, 2016·270 votes·8,252 views

My bet is that Riot would knee cap her so hard that you wouldn't be able to play her consistently for the rest of the 2017 season. Cut the bias and nerf this little shit.

EDIT: I only make this comparison because a Rioter had once said "Sejuani has had her time in the spotlight, its time for another champion to have her spotlight" Sejuani was strong for 1 patch, got nerfed and her core item got nerfed and she was placed back into the gutter where she was previous. Meanwhile Lee Sin, has been strong/overbearing for MANY patches, SEASONS even, still not a nerf in sight. If Riot wants people to take this game seriously as a competitive e-sport, they need to cut the bullshit and stop playing favorites. Balance should have no favorites, if you're overtuned you deserve nerfs, if you're undertuned, you need buffs, regardless of who the champion is.

259 Comments

Tik115Nov 29, 201695 votes

I hope you put this knowing this legit happened

No really, Cinderhulk came out her rework came out she got to Lee sins leve of play/win rate, next patch rolled in Cinderhulk AND HER were Kneecapped in the same patch and now....well now she is where she is

EndlessSorcererNov 29, 2016123 votes

Riot said that she had her time in the spotlight and it was time for other champions to have a chance.

The hypocrisy was not lost on us.

Tik115Nov 29, 201647 votes

Yup, her time was one whole patch

Meanwhile....Lee....Graves.....Nidalee.....Elise.....Vi......

sir d wreckNov 29, 201632 votes

It's funny, the one champ that should hog the spotlight and Riot won't allow it for more than a patch.

Mistress MadokaNov 29, 201611 votes

Velkoz I see what you did there

Velzard of KozNov 29, 20164 votes

LeeSin Me too.

Tannhäuser GateNov 29, 20167 votes

Vi has not been meta for a while, she should get a pass with only light nerfs, or none if CotC gets nerfed

bow markerNov 29, 20163 votes

Vi is rising in meta, i have seen her more and more, so just wait

General Esdeath Nov 29, 201611 votes

Vi hasn't been flavor of the month but I think she's always had a good place.

SpoofghoulNov 29, 20167 votes

This pretty much shes always been strong

But now she is also rising in the meta since she counters some of the current meta champs like twitch for example point click smash to pieces

KieferrNov 29, 20161 votes

If you played sejuani yourself, or watched mains play her you'd know she is infinitely better to win with and play with in every single aspect compared to Lee Shit. This isn't fucking 2015, stop with the Sejuani is gutted crap and educate your hollow fucking brain.

Tik115Nov 29, 20168 votes

yeah except she gets bullied around early by the current jungle picks making her fall behind and in ganks lacks the Killpower of the current jungle picks

And even with Junglers in her class she's beaten, Why pick Sejuani when Zac exists? or when you can just build Lee tanky and have half a braincell to kick the squishy?

I HAVE played Sejuani and she can't compete with current meta picks and is overshadowed by better tanks.

LankPantsNov 29, 20165 votes

She never reached Lee's pickrate. Lee has been more popular than every other jungler on every patch since the end of Season 2.

Spaceman5pffNov 30, 20162 votes

But let's buff him to make sure he stays in the spotlight.

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 29, 20162 votes

IIRC Sejuani's win-rate was waaaaay above 51%. Wasn't it like 56-57%?

LankPantsNov 29, 20162 votes

Her pickrate also peaked at 15%. At the time Lee's pickrate was about 22%.

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 29, 201611 votes

Well, we have to be honest: Many more people like playing Lee period.

Lee is a playmaker. He's iconic. He has a move named after him (The insec) and he is one of the absolute most flashy characters in any MOBA from League to DOTA to SMITE. Naturally, when Lee is good, he's going to get a higher winrate. Lee's pick rate is very high even when he's garbage because of his nature. (Much like Zed and Yasuo)

Lee could have a 30% win rate and Sejuani could have a 70% win rate and I still think Lee would have a higher pick rate.

Voluug13Nov 29, 20162 votes

Except that didnt happen just because. It wasnt magic that made Lee a favorite, it was an intentional design from Rito's part.

If they nerfed him he could stop being a favorite and the people that ''enjoyed'' playing him could drop him faster that you can say ''Ban Yasuo Again''.

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 29, 20165 votes

I'm sorry but no. That's not true in the slightest. Do you know why Yasuo still has a decent pick-rate/ban rate even though he's decidedly eh most of the time? Because people love playing him. People are thrilled for it. Same with Zed too. This transcends beyond mere stat and goes into character love.

People will play ten games of lee, feed like a fool in nine of them but #10 will be the one they brag to all their friends about all night.

HelmightNov 29, 201619 votes

The biggest issue is that Lee Sin is in desperate need of a rework. His kit has insane amounts of utility, damage, mobility, and CC, which means he's literally always a good pick because he always brings something to the table. Something needs to be cut from his kit, but that would require a larger-scale rework and Riot's been focusing on other champions that (arguably) need it more.

Hopefully the Diver class update takes some time to deal wtih Lee

SteelflameNov 29, 20163 votes

I'd be fine with his ratios being shifted to TAD ratios, at a much lower value. A large part of the issue is with 100 Bonus AD, he gets an insane 480 damage on his combo, not counting any weaved autos, of which you can get at least 2-3 in during the combo if you do it right, in the middle of other animations at that. Did you know you can AA someone you kicked? You can. Same basic thing Alistar got removed from his kit's W. And the more damage he can pack up front, the more his Q2 can use for the execute scaling too.

NuparuNov 29, 20162 votes

So you want to rework him and remove aspects of his kit just because?

I mean, that's like, counterproductive to the rework design... they rework champions because they're too binary/have absolutely no counterplay, not because they're too versatile at any given moment.

HelmightNov 29, 20165 votes

Not just because - because he's too versatile. He offers literally everything a diver would want, so he's a universal pick unless his numbers are low enough, and then he's shit. Meddler's talked about reworking Kalista and Azir because they're also generalist champions that are universally good.

So it's not that I want stuff removed from his kit just because - I want things removed so he has an identity beyond "the champ that does everything"

NuparuNov 29, 20163 votes

The issue is Lee doesn't excel at anything. There's usually always a stronger pick you can take for what you want to accomplish, because he's a generalist pick - in the sense of the jungle, he's only really far above average at one thing: applying early pressure. And this is because of his generalist-type nature: he's basically on the opposite spectrum of Elise in terms of why he succeeds early. (Mainly because Elise specializes in early pressure with ridiculous base damages, crowd control, and insane dive potential to brute force these ganks, while Lee succeeds off the versatility of his kit which allows him to make pressure happen from many different situations)

Also, his kit is kinda designed to allow him to strongly impact early and dial down slowly as the game goes on from there. (For example, the shield on Safeguard isn't quite too relevant if he's diving to inSec someone as he doesn't get the shield when he hops to a ward, and the effects of Cripple (his 2nd E) aren't as useful because the slow isn't as impactful as it is early game. The two consistencies are his Q execute and his ult - but those are what define Lee Sin.)

My only complaint with Lee is that his R has a stun attached to it - so you can't do anything about it - but it doesn't stun him as well. Other than that, he does have his purpose (all around flexible jungler, strong early and scales decently but not anything to be noted but has decent initiation potential). (Also, I'm saying either make his R stun him (remove R -> Flash) or remove the stun on his R before it hits...)

(Also, the Lethality changes really hit his ability to snowball with damage items, especially since Ghostblade was one of his better items for that.)

At least he has to make a choice in terms of whether he wants to build tank or damage to get one or the other. Unlike certain other champions which build tank items, have strong early games, and maybe build one damage item to 100-0 your entire backline with a spell rotation... I think there are many "specialist" picks that need proper changes before Lee Sin needs something to tune him into a specialist. (Namely Hecarim, but Courage of the Colossus needs changes too.)

Chembaron YamadaNov 29, 20162 votes

That is exactly the problem: Lee Sin is a generalist. And generalists are considered a problem by Riot. They are actively keeping Lucian weak right now, do you know why? They gave a class update to marksmen, giving each of them an unique niche and playstyle. Lucian wasn't included and right now he is a generalist. Riot stated that if Lucian is actually strong, he dominates the adc role and they don't want that to happen.

The same is going on with Lee Sin right now. He is a generalist jungler and he is strong, he is actually dominating the jungle because of that. That is a problem. I hope they are doing something about it with the upcoming diver class update, we have to see. But don't act like being a generalist is no problem at all....

NuparuNov 29, 20161 votes

I feel though with Lucian that he's not just a generalist in that nature - he's actively one of the strongest, if not the strongest, lane bully in the game when he has good itemization. Maybe Lee is the same way (I really don't think so, however, because I feel every time his itemization is good, someone else benefits a bit more).

So he's a generalist while being a master of lane bullying.

Also, Lee isn't dominating the jungle. He has a huge pick rate but his winrate is nothing special - if he had a higher winrate it'd be much more concerning... but his winrate even at 125+ games flatlines at 52%. That's honestly not that bad for a veteran jungle status.

Chembaron YamadaNov 29, 20162 votes

It isn't about lane bullying, though. If you are a generalist, that means you are good at many different tasks. That's the case for Lucian and that is exactly why he can't be strong. If he is strong, that means there is no reason to pick another adc. Because he is strong and good at many different things at once.

There is something like "too versatile" in that game and the goal is to give each champion a unique niche in that game. If someone is pretty good at everything (not the best, he just has to be good), there is no reason to pick someone else.

Jeddy017Nov 29, 20165 votes

Funny because Riot tried to rework Lee before, but apparently there was a large outcry from pro players against it. So Riot scrapped it.

Dextix LTNov 29, 201610 votes

Again, showing bias, because they NEVER do that to other champs, but lee, their posterboy? Of course there is time for him...

BastionKrossNov 29, 20161 votes

Well, technically Riven also had a rework on the PBE that got pulled. Had a resource called "Edge". Riven mains were all over that, and the rework was pulled in a matter of days.

On the other hand, there's the Morde rework that nobody wanted and still went through anyway. Too bad Morde isn't Riven or Lee Sin.

PermabannedGarenNov 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well, technically Riven also had a rework on the PBE that got pulled. Had a resource called "Edge". Riven mains were all over that, and the rework was pulled in a matter of days.

On the other hand, there's the Morde rework that nobody wanted and still went through anyway. Too bad Morde isn't Riven or Lee Sin.

Yeah, it's a shame Mordekaiser's design wasn't as healthy as Riven or Lee Sin's, and thus needed a rework no matter what anyone said.

Battlecast SonaNov 29, 20163 votes

while I'm downvoting you because your point is wrong (Riven...healthy? Lee Sin... healthy? What game are you playing?)

It's at least good that they didn't rework Morde into a less healthy version of himself just before kneecapping him to make him useless, right?

PermabannedGarenNov 29, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NaJRsuVT,comment-id=000800030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-29T21:49:36.984+0000)

while I'm downvoting you because your point is wrong (Riven...healthy? Lee Sin... healthy? What game are you playing?)

It's at least good that they didn't rework Morde into a less healthy version of himself just before kneecapping him to make him useless, right?

A game where those champions are not nearly as binary as Mordekaiser was (and sadly still is, though not to the same extent) nor as completely lacking in meaningful counterplay or interactivity.

Mordekaiser is more healthy now than he was before the rework. He's still a toxic piece of shit, but less so.

Battlecast SonaNov 29, 20163 votes

Riven as a character is basically entirely predicated not on you making a mistake as the person playing against her but capitalizing on her player screwing up. At least Mordekaiser's binary nature made his counterplay simple - Riven's counterplay is "never be near her but also don't let her farm so she won't oneshot 5 people and also don't get too far behind or she'll just tower dive you", lol.

GusdelNov 29, 201613 votes

Sejuani did have similar levels. They gutted her so hard the community still thinks she is weak. But all tank jungles get nerfed when they get above 50% win rate. Zac will get gutted soon enough.

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 28, 20169 votes

that isn't bias though.

lee sin being strong does not have the same implications as sejuani being strong.

lee sin being strong means you have to dodge a skillshot

sejuani being strong means you need to warp the entire meta around an insane front line with a ranged aoe stun and knockup and massive aoe slow and damage that scales with max hp.

You're comparison is shit and you should feel like shit for making it.

metaworldpeace10Nov 28, 201688 votes

lol lee sin has defined the jungle meta for what now? 5 seasons?

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 29, 20164 votes

it doesn't matter if lee sin has dominated 1000 metas

Your analogy is shit and you should feel like shit.

Lee sin's metawarping has nothing to do with your misleading shit from your shit analogy. That wasn't an example of bias that was common sense. A meta where sejuani is strong probably isn't healthy or fun, this has been established repeatedly. A meta where lee sin is strong for 5 seasons is meta where one of the biggest fucking games in esports/moba history is made.

Don't compare the two with this halfassed terrible comparison. Feel bad for trying.

BrohoofNov 29, 201648 votes

Alright, let's not be so hostile.

Yes, you're completely correct in saying that if Sejuani were strong, it could warp the meta. But you're missing the point. You could replace Sejuani with any number of champions and the point would still ring through. Riot has a serious bias against nerfing Lee Sin. I'm sure we don't have to argue that he is strong do we? And we don't have to argue that he's been strong do we?

If you answered 'no' to both those questions, then I don't see the problem with point OP is making.

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 29, 20161 votes

Nothing hostile about it. If you slowly escalate how often you say the word shit it has a funny effect on conversations, especially shitty ones.

It does not matter who you replace sejuani with and your claim is also false. There is a handful of champs that are treated the same way, lee sin just represents a portion of that pool that fits riot's ideal jungler types.

And no, you cannot conclude that riot has a bias nor can you conclude that a bias equates to strength. We don't have to argue that he is strong because you aren't even claiming it, your claim is that non-existent (as far as any evidence shows) bias means that a champion is strong which is not true. We also don't have to argue that he's been strong because again you're not saying the same thing here. You're trying to link 3 or more different subjects as though you didn't just say 3 different things or more.

Answering no to both your questions has nothing to do with the OP's incorrect point. I don't care if lee sin was god of the rift since release, you cannot conclude that riot is biased towards lee just because sejuani would never be allowed to have the same amount of success.

By this same logic, if a black man with a rocket launcher on his back and a white man with a sniper rifle on his back would never be allowed to come into a certain range of a large crowd that the police are racist if they only stop the man with the explosives and merely keep watch over the one who's weapon doesn't allow for such rapid killings.

The logic doesn't work, you cannot conclude that they are racist if the two are judged by the same standard as far as skin goes. That kind of fallacious logic is what the OP is spewing. It is silly shit and should make anyone defending feel like shit.

LaterToTheRaceNov 29, 201650 votes

"If you slowly escalate how often you say the word shit it has a funny effect on conversations" No I'm pretty sure it makes you look/sound uneducated and boring.

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 29, 20161 votes

which in turn can draw emphasis to a particular mood which is often the point of shitting on shitty shittery which was in fact an excuse to say shit a few more times.

There's really no need to sound educated for people who think the OPs logic is legitimate. If they want to be stupid or back stupid things I'm not going too far out of my way to help them, not on this forum anyways. I've explained myself well enough, your all or they all can circle jerk or ask questions if they like whichever comes first

Supreme Senpai69Nov 29, 201614 votes

It sorta just makes you look like a huge asshole unless you queue people in on the joke beforehand

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 29, 20161 votes

the same can be said of the OP

I don't need to be seen as friendly to say what i'm saying even if I'm obviously such a friendly guy.

Supreme Senpai69Nov 29, 201614 votes

You sorta do. If you're gonna make an argument there's three pillars and one of them is ethos, or credibility. When you start with something grossly unappealing people will look to read the literal millions of other posts. Why waste time on yours if it seems like you're just going to spout nonsense? Nobody in their right mind will waste their time.

No need to get defensive or anything, just some legit advice. What you do with it is on you

ApocylipticNov 29, 20166 votes

Well, I'd imagine they'd do nothing, but this is a completely theoretical situation that will likely never, ever happen.

Sejuani is a tank with low damage and low outplay potential, meaning she'd never see such high playrates unless op, which leads me into my second point.

When a tank like Sejuani is Op, they don't have 51% winrates typically. Usually, it reaches into the 54-58% range because of how easy the champion is to play, a better fit for a team comp, leading to less mistakes and thus more wins.

Speaking of stats, how do you know Riot isn't going to nerf Lee Sin? He was strong last patch, and just recognized as op this patch, my bet is he recieves a wrist slap next patch, and if not, welcome to the chaos of preseason. Right now, Riot's main peragative is the assassin update, which seems to have weakened every single assassin or busted their kit in some way (rengar only good as a bruiser, Kha Zix busted, ect.)

Give it time or don't play preseason. I'm using the time to expand my champion pool and lvl up an account. Gameplay balance is the least of my worries right now, that way Riot can keep the game balanced for the actual season.

LaterToTheRaceNov 29, 201610 votes

"Give it time or don't play preseason." Just so you know, Lee has been in this state for the last 2 seasons or so.

ApocylipticNov 29, 20163 votes

No, not at all. I know when lee is op, this is new, not something that's been going on for ages.

LankPantsNov 29, 20164 votes

So yeh, 2 season is actually an underestimation. Lee Sin has had the highest pickrate amongst junglers since the end of season 2, closer to 5 seasons. This isn't anything new.

ApocylipticNov 29, 20163 votes

A high pickrate doesn't mean he's op though.