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[opinion] why are sand soldiers invincible? They should tank for their king and be attackable

redfeenix··86 votes·5,735 views

Edit: loved the idea of having his soldiers decay faster if they're attacked. It makes sense that sand crumbles sooner when struck.

Hey I personally don't play a lot of azir. I tried him this free week and wondered why his sand soldiers are invincible.

ChaMpions should be strong enough to to attack and kill piles of animated sand.

Currently the only way to counter azir is to walk out of his range. Azir can freely spam his w and put them right on top of the enemy etc. The enemy currently has a choice of hitting azir whilst tanking his soldiers or running away.

I'm saying we give the sand soldiers 3 hit points like wards or teemo shooms. Now instead of running away, players have the option of taking 3 autos to kill a soldier.

This would also help in team fights where the soldiers just shred your team. Now tanks etc can kill the soldiers to protect their squishes.

What do azir mains think ? Do you think his sand soldiers should remain invincible, or can we give them some hit points like 3 or 5 hits.

It would open up an additional option when fighting azir( ie should I use 3 autos on azir while tanking his soldiers, or spend 3 autos hitting the soldier instead of azir.) This would also make azir use his soldiers in a strategic way instead of just spamming

It makes sense that his soldiers should be able to tank for him as that's what soldiers do for kings. Obviously with this nerf azir would receive some buffs to go with it.

This change would give some counterplay options for his opponents, defined strengths and weaknesses as well as having windows of power

What do you guys think about azirs invincible soldiers made out of sand? Should they continue being tougher than towers ? Or should they be able to be downed be other champs.

157 Comments

JosephAngelo33 votes

Azir main for about nine months but not anymore.

My first thought was that the soldiers don't really last so long that it would be beneficially to kill them which made me think that if it wouldn't really matter then why not do it? It might not be too big of a nerf to azir and it adds a cool minigame to playing against him for his opponents. It also adds more couterplay for his opponents; enemy laner, if they are ranged can kill his soldier if he is trying to leave it up on a minion wave or if three people try to jump on him and he tries to get away all of them can auto the soldier once to kill it before he can get away.

Actually this might be a really good idea. The more i think about this the more I like it. One of the biggest reasons Azir is unhealthy for the game is he lacks counterplay. Another truth about Azir is if he doesn't have his soldiers then he is doing 0 damage. So if I am a ranged champion trying to kill Azir the fight might start with me, the ranged champion fighting Azir, first dodging his soldiers and killing them. Then after I have killed two or three of them and he has none left and therefore no damage THEN I will aggress onto him and kill him helplessly.

You smell that? That's called counter play and interactive gameplay.

redfeenix7 votes

Again I'm just the avg player, not even an azir main. That's why these comments are so good, you guys add good alternative options.

Thanks for the reply, i wanted to make sure azir mains were cool with it.

Other options are decaying hp: and if you hit the soldier it crumbles to dust faster than if you just leave it up.

Makes sense strategically and thematically- the sand soldiers crumble when they are struck

JosephAngelo8 votes

oh yeah that's a great idea! :D they already decay so make each auto attack reduce the soldiers duration by like 2 seconds or something. damn I like this. good idea.

SSJTribe2 votes

Probably too late for this thread but posting anyway. What if the Soldiers had ward health equal to the rank of Azir's W? You could create two different playstyles, the burst mage type where you Max Q first for the instant damage, or the Attack Speed / Sustained Damage type where you Max W first.

The soldier numbers would have to be tweaked, probably buffed early but I feel this is a great way to give him some damage back while retaining some counter play.

redfeenix2 votes

Love this idea a lot!!! I love having multiple choices in champs for hoe I play the game. This burst vs sustained DPs option for azir is really cool and will open option up for the azir.

Fully support!

JosephAngelo1 votes

I first hesitated on giving his soldiers too little health, but I think if they could be killed in one or tow autos then it would create a really cool interaction between melee champions in which when azir q's at you, it might actually be more efficient to turn on the sand soldier and kill it before it can auto attack you again RATHER THAN ony relying on getting out of auto attack range to avoid the damage. I like this more and more as I keep thinking about it :D

Lohenngramm25 votes

This.... is ridiculous. Azir was designed as the AP equivalent of an ADC in that he's an auto-attack based, late game carry who happens to build ability power instead of attack damage. His soldiers are invincible because they're the means of delivering his magic damage based auto-attacks to his enemies. Making them killable would be like countering an ADC's attack by right-clicking the projectile to knock it out of the air. Yes that would look cool, but it would effectively destroy the champion's ability to do their job properly.

I've seen the Heimer-Turret comparison in this thread, but there is actually a key difference between them. Heimer's turrets have their own health bars because they remain indefinitely and attack independently of Heimerdinger, leaving him free to cast spells, auto-attack, use items, etc. They're more comparable to Azir's passive turret, which does have it's own health bar and a set time limit for when it can be up. Azir's soldiers on the other hand are auto-attacks, they can only attack when Azir orders them to, can only attack the target he's clicking on, can only do so when both the target and Azir are a certain distance from them, and can only be out for 9 seconds.

You mention "This change would give some counterplay options for his opponents, defined strengths and weaknesses as well as having windows of power" but the thing is, Azir has all of those currently (it's why they launched with invincible sand soldiers and never changed it after two years).

Counterplay: stay outside of the range of his soldiers, he only has one ability to move them, so punish him for missing you with it. He's a champion you beat through superior positioning. Azir also builds relatively little mana, and can run dry early on if he frequently combos, punish him for it. If he has multiple soldiers down, then he has no escape, move around the soldiers and dive him. Always coordinate with your jungler (this is good advice in general).

Strengths: Powerful siege and defense potential, strong burst and DPS come late game, potent engage/disengage with his ult.

Weaknesses: Smaller mana pool early on, 3 WQ's is enough to effectively drain it. A weak early game in general, besides his Q and R (and technically passive), Azir has no damaging abilities and is reliant on auto-attacks. The result is that he can be effectively bullied early on if you play well. This is also why Rylai's is a core item on him. Since he can only move his soldiers with his Q (and not independently of each other) he's only able to get off one, maybe two, autos before his opponent simply walks out of range. Alternatively, play a bruiser or a tank and completely destroy him once you buy a item 3211 (this tactic is only recommended if you know the people you're playing with well). He's squishy, and unlike actual ADC's has no way of regenerating health through lifesteal or spellvamp. As a result, divers and assassins are quite good at dealing with him later on. While he can disengage with his ult, many dashes (such as Nocturne's Ult) cannot be stopped, which allows them to kill him. Azir does have his own dash, but using it requires him to disengage his soldiers from the fight as well, effectively halting his damage. Finally, simply don't fight him in his soldiers (or near a tower) and he won't be able to deal with you.

Windows of Power: One of the most overt examples in the entire game: his number of soldiers. Azir slowly acquires soldiers (time reduced with CDR) and can only hold two at a time, though he can have any number out on the field at once. The most soldiers he'll have down early on is two, scaling up to 4 (and at a stretch for half a second 5) come late game. The more soldiers he has down at once, the stronger his potential offence is, but the weaker his potential defence becomes as he won't be able to dash away without a soldier in reserve. Azir is at his most dangerous near a turret with 4 soldiers down, and at his weakest alone with no soldiers out.

redfeenix6 votes

Great counter points! Thank you for sharing this , its very helpful !

While I disagree wih your opinion, and think that his sand soldiers should be a targetable creature than can body block for azir (think about it, the emperor WOULD use his sand slaves as meatshields), I love reading this well written post.

It looks like you've played / vs a lot of azir, and you know his counters really well. I was more thinking from a new player point of view where they're really not sure how to play vs him. Like should they get close to him while getting shredded or just run away forever. The third option of battling him / his soldiers now exist.

Now lemme read through this comment so I know how to deal with him in lane :P

Cheers, thanks for your opinion man

redfeenix6 votes

Thanks , I learned a lot about azir from reading this.

Now lemme spam some more games on him , its still freeweek azir right?

Lohenngramm4 votes

I believe so. I think it rolls over on Tuesday. It's been awhile since I last checked though.

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

What he said. So much more eloquently and thought out than my attempt.

I really like your analysis, +1 mate.

Lohenngramm3 votes

Thanks friend. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

QjTHqo3RTq3 votes

Because there is NO way to disable an ADC from auto attacking.

Yasuo Shen

I won't count AS slows, disables, vulnerabilities or anything like that since Azir is also privy to them, but Azir is by far more mobile than any adc there is. Even Kalista is gated by auto attacks, and can not escape danger nearly as well Azir.

Lohenngramm2 votes

Neither Yasuo nor Shen disable auto-attacks and I believe Shen's AoE dodge zone affects Azir's soldiers (it should at any rate). Yasuo's windwall only prevents projectiles passing through it and can be played around. Both skills also have long cooldowns (around 20 seconds I believe).

Azir's also not that mobile compared to most ADCs. He has one dash ability on a decent cooldown that is always telegraphed (he can only move to his soldiers) and can be interrupted by body blocking him. While he can increase the dash distance by timing his Q correctly, failing to do so leaves him caught out with no way of counterattacking. Compare that to Tristana who has a long range dash whose cooldown resets on a kill/assist or Graves and Lucian who both have dashes whose cooldown is reduced by their auto attacks. Then of course there is Kalista who can easily kite and chase with her Q and Autos. Also all of these abilities can only be interrupted by certain spells (Veigar's cage, etc). I'm not saying he's immobile, Azir just has average mobility compared to an ADC, more than some (Twitch, Caitlyn) and less than others (Tristana, Kalista)

HazyCloud73 votes

The best post in this entire thread.

JosephAngelo1 votes

Every champion, even unhealthy ones, have counter play. I believe Azir needs more counter play. He is very susceptible to being dove and cc'ed but he also has his e and his ulti to react to this specific situation. I mained azir for a long time and even with my extensive knowledge of this champion I still struggle when playing against him. He is really frustrating to play against.

I see this as an opportunity to give a champion more counter play and make playing AGAINST this champion more interactive and enjoyable, which I think is good for any champion. Champions like AP ekko, orianna and Sion are great examples of champions that I have fun playing against; their kits are so full of minigames and interactions that playing against them feels like dancing and even if I am feeding my balls off I am still most likely having a good time and if they kill me, I say in all chat "wp" because I believe the fight to be fair and they came out on top. When champions like azir and yasuo kill me I am left feeling like it wasn't a fair fight; I am left feeling helpless.

I don't mean to shit post but this would bug me if I didn't say something :/

There are a lot of strengths listed which I believe is part of the problem with him.

Lastly, there comes the question of your understanding of the champion.

  1. I know for sure that he can have a maximum of three sand soldiers up at a time with perhaps a slight fraction of a second he can have four, but this might even be too short of an amount of time to even issue an auto attack command.

  2. Even if his w is totally on cooldown, he can still use his escape with the soldiers he has down already.

  3. Azir has a very strong early game if played properly; this is another reason he is problematic and is seen so often in Professional play. He has a good laning phase which includes safe and reliable harass which includes one of the most reliable ways to proc thunderlords in the game, safe farming and a nearly constant threat of an all-in. As long as he farms well and gets his items on time, a good azir can dominate an early game and never fall off as mid and late game rolls around.

  4. Under counterplay, you basically say build tanky, dive him, cc him and stay off of his sand soldiers, which is true; I agree. But even though this is the best strategy to face him, he has many tools to deal with this behavior.

a. Build tanky: void staff should be third item on azir and he can utilze liandry;s quite well. Even not considering magic pen, he is a DPS champion and like ADC's which are also DPS champions, he can shred tanks because he can do so much sustained damage.

b. Dive him: If enemies dash at him first, he can ult them away and even if they have a second dash, they can use it to get over his wall since it inhibits anything except blinks and teleports for the entire duration the wall stands. If he ults before you dash on him then you still cant get to him because you cant dash over the wall. These characteristics (knock back AND special persistent terrain) make for a VERY frustrating experience when trying to dive on azir. Now, consider that he himself has one of the longest dashes in the game to reposition himself away from enemies if they do manage to dash to his location and the result can be a hopeless sesation in the enemy.

c. CC him: This is actually foolproof way to counter him. CC him and he can die pretty easily.

d. Stay off of his sand soldiers: One sand soldier has the area of influence to fill most choke points in the game. larger areas like river or a lane he will need two soldiers to account for the width however, due to the ammo system on his w, he can spawn two soldiers in under two seconds. Because of the dmage reduction on additional soldiers attacking the same target, Azir is not punished too hard for spreading out his soldiers to cover entire choke points. plus, he can reposition his sand soldiers very often at all stages of the game with his Q, which most azir players max first which shortens the cooldown with every level. Even if his enemies manage to avoid his soldiers through where he placing them with his w and where he is sending them with his q, he still has the option to reposition his enemies on top of his soldiers with his ultimate; I think this is a large reason his ultimate was designed the way it was. It repositions his enemies and bunches them all together. I believe that among these three abilities azir has to keep his enemies on his sand soldiers at all times, it is futile to consider staying off of his sand soldiers an appropriate strategy for countering him. well, I stand corrected it is a good strategy and very possible if he is actually targeting one of your teammates and not you but what I ama trying to say is if he wants you on a a sand soldier, he can get you on a sand soldier. Another means he can do this is if he is facing a melee champion, he can simply stand on one of his soldiers.

Sorry. I know I sound like a jerk. I think this is at least decent information though. There is legitimacy to what you are saying I wanted to include the counter counter argument.

Darkslayer8511 votes

It's kinda like Yorick's ghouls. You can kill them, but it's a bad idea as a melee. Better just to run.

Spôôked9 votes

If you can even find the hitboxes on the ghouls

Darkslayer852 votes

So... Damn... Bullshit...

Lugg9 votes

I always wondered why Azir isn't an AD mage myself. His soldiers use spears after all.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

considering azir isnt reliant on his soldiers living for long to pull his combos, or to poke with his q i think his soldiers should have a 3 hit decaying hp bar like gangplank barrels.

in return they could last longer at 1 hp, than theyre doing now while being invincible.

gives some counterplay to his zoning, and dps while still leaving him with the same ability to pull flashy plays.

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

Have you ever tried punching a sandstorm? It's cute but futile.

In all seriousness if his soldiers can be attacked then all his pressure goes out the window.

He can only summon them every so often and people can literally take one second out of the teamfight to wreck the sand soldiers and ruin Azir's fighting potential for how ever long it takes him to recharge another.

Azir's got it bad enough as it is, please don't hit him again .

redfeenix3 votes

I'm pushing this cuz it makes sense strategically and thematically. Right now he has very little counterplay than step out of his range. This will also separate the good azirs from the bad.

If a sand soldiers has 3 or 5 hp like wards, enemies have to choose between attacking azir or attacking his soldiers for that many hits.

Azir would also be careful about wasting his soldiers randomly by placing them better.

He would obviously get some power tweaks. I think it's fine if our emperor is a strong as long as he has weaknesses..... Right now he has very little and hitting the soldiers might be a way to start

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Well when you put it that way, soldiers having health would provide counterplay. My only concern would be how easy it would be to cripple Azir.

Maybe his soldiers could charge aster if one of them was destroyed or something.

It's not a bad idea, but they have to have some health to them otherwiden it would be too easy to wreck Azir.

JosephAngelo2 votes

I don't think it would be too bad. This same mechanic exists on Zyra right now. 9/10 times, people don't kill zyra's plants; they run from them of ignore them and kill Zyra.

blkh14 votes

is there a truly reasonable argument against this idea? Clones can be used to tank damage and are targetable. So why shouldn't the sand soldiers be treated like them?

Arakadia2 votes

Is would probably become considered the main counterplay against Azir. Playing against Azir and being forced to constantly kill his soldiers isn't fun at all.

Suffocation4 votes

I used to play a lot Azir but i gave up because every patch he eats a nerf or a change to his gameplay ( Old passive CDR=AS, knock up on his dash, his w allowed to target turrets etc). It isn't fun when you wanna learn to play a champ' and they change him again and again.

First they shouldn't lower his skill floor, I mean it's okay for certain champ like Annie or Garen to be easy to play because it feels always good sometimes to just play something that won't force you to think too much but it also happens that you want to try something a little bit harder even if you need more time to learn it because it feels rewarding when you finally master this kind of champ and that's the case of Azir.

Right now according to http://champion.gg/champion/Azir Azir's win rate is the second lowest of the game, your idea is to add more counterplay because playing against, i agree, is frustrating sometimes, but what do you give in exchange because once again it gonna hurt his gameplay if you apply this.

In my opinion Azir either needs a full rework or he must be left in his current state so only people who really enjoy him and took the time to master him will be rewarded.

statelesskiller3 votes

yeah this seems reasonable. i wouldnt say im a azir main but i do play him alot. making his primary damage source which can 3 shot any of your carries late game actually able to be dealt with seems quite fair. maybe need to give the damage a small buff since his damage has been nerfed so much lately

there are plenty of other champions that could stand to get a similar nerf as well. its quite bullshit to have a heavy damage source that is controllable just standing there . . . between you and your minions . . . and you have no way of not eating damage to get your cs even though the enemy champion is standing behind his caster minions

redfeenix2 votes

What other fair nerfs did you have in mind?

I didn't suggest this as a straight nerf, but because it makes sense thematically. Sand crumbles If you hit it, it's weak substance not an invincible one

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

because azir is a tyrant and they only do as ordered

Twitch Chat2 votes

spending time attacking an expendable summoned unit with a 5 second cooldown and a charge system sounds like a really great waste of time and damage

Toplane Fencer2 votes

This would remove the sand soldier's option as a zoning tool, and also make them really similar to Illaoi's tentacles. No thank you - from someone who doesn't play azir. Another thing is, it doesnt' feel fun to attack clones or stuff like that. You just wanna attack azir.

CorruptedScythe2 votes

Kog'maw would instantly shit on him with runaan's.

YurÌ on Ice2 votes

because every ranged champ will absolutely shit on him.

redfeenix4 votes

Heaven forbid azir have an actual weakness

YurÌ on Ice2 votes

{quoted}

Heaven forbid azir have an actual weakness

Heaven forbid someone mentions he has 39% winrate and 45% winrate with mains.

redfeenix2 votes

I have no problems increasing azir's damage as long as there is some counterplay. This gives him windows of power where is is strong and should be avoided, and when he is weak and should be attacked.

I would 100% support a buff to his power as long as there is a way to deal with him rather than just running away.

This seperates the good azirs from the bad ones as well. If you're good, you wont place you soldier within the enemies range, unless you want your soldier to tank their hits (which could be useful in some scenarios).

For example, during a team fight azir should be able to use his soldiers as a meatshield for his team, if he chooses to. He should of course be able to continue using them to attack. Just depends on where he positions them. Both doing damage and tanking with the soldiers can be strong in different scenarios.

YurÌ on Ice3 votes

{quoted}

I have no problems increasing azir's damage as long as there is some counterplay. This gives him windows of power where is is strong and should be avoided, and when he is weak and should be attacked.

I would 100% support a buff to his power as long as there is a way to deal with him rather than just running away.

This seperates the good azirs from the bad ones as well. If you're good, you wont place you soldier within the enemies range, unless you want your soldier to tank their hits (which could be useful in some scenarios).

For example, during a team fight azir should be able to use his soldiers as a meatshield for his team, if he chooses to. He should of course be able to continue using them to attack. Just depends on where he positions them. Both doing damage and tanking with the soldiers can be strong in different scenarios.

Ok, I'm kinda fed-up with arguing with people who apparently don't read patch-notes, but I'll give it another shot here, and I know I will get downvoted for not supporting the pitchfork anti-Azir bandwagon circlejerk that is matching the old zed one.

  1. Azir is a zoning mage. You give his soldiers healthbars, he can't zone anymore, and you can pick soraka into him and build attack speed. Any ranged champion will become his counterpick.

(2) There are lots of ways of dealing with him rather than running away, if running away is what everyone is doing right now than he would have a winrate better than that of a trollpick.

(3) That separates the good Azirs from the bad Azirs? is this really a statement? the gap between good Azir players and bad Azir players is already massive. The champion is so hard to learn and so under-rewarding he's more of a masochist than Kalista is right now. Azir is hardly the faceroll-keyboard type of champ who presses R to get a kill. He takes lots of skill and practice and the gap between an experienced player and an inexperienced one is there. Play some Azir before actually throwing an assumption that he needs even more difficulty and skill-curve to get going. There was a point where Rioters said he is the hardest champion in the game. This statement destroys your credibility to comment on Azir for me.

(4) and than we get kids creating pitchfork threads here about Azir having mini Yasuo windwalls all over the place. The changes you want require a rework/update which will NOT happen. Riot already generalized reworks and updates into two things; full VGUs or full class updates. Neither happening anytime soon for Azir or mages.

(5) Wait for the 6.14 nerfs to sink in, and people to get their heads out of their asses and realize he's trash. The community usually takes months to realize a champ has been nerfed out of viability. Zed is a golden example of this. He has 46% winrate, he was nerfed to a point counter-play was painfully obvious, what happened? did people stop ranting? nope. The bandwagons kept creating circlejerk threads here, his ban-rate maintained. And now guess what? his ban-rate is slowly dropping. People are actually coming to realize he is'n Satan that they make him out to be. And this is just one example.

Give Azir some time. If time shows anything it would probably be that he needs buffs. He is very weak right now (and has had bad winrates/under-rewarding since 6.11).

Raj Te Lag Comp2 votes

Well, one Riot employee explained that the problem with Azir was that he was too safe with both his ult and his e. What if they changed his e to make the soldiers take damage and tank skill shots for a few seconds? This would remove his escape while still giving some semblance of safety as an immobile mage.

redfeenix1 votes

Hmm i've been reading through the comments to determine if the azir soldiers should be able to body block skill shots or not

Keep in mind that heimer's turrets can block skill shots. Now thematicaly it makes sense that azir sacrifice his soldiers to block incomming damage. But does that make sense from a strategic/balance point of view?

Thanks for the reply friend

HaloDragonX2 votes

Balance? Kinda. He'd me more gankable and less safe, because Azir is infact too safe.

Scramrail2 votes

Why not give his soldiers some sort of GP barrel mechanic where they spawn at full health (3-5hp) and the bar deteriorates over time down to 1 hp, where it will stay for a short time until the soldier finally disappears on its own. That way, the Azir has to decide if he wants to use his soldiers at full hp for offense, or if he should use them to farm a bit first before sending them in to attack. Obviously if he chooses the latter, he runs the risk of his soldier simply being killed by his opponent, but if he chooses the former then he has to potentially sacrifice farm.

Raxicor2 votes

I don't think shifting their purpose is a good idea. The soldiers are an extension of his AA range, not pets. Changing the purpose of the soldiers to health reliant blockers would have to change his kit from zoning to keeping the soldiers alive or spawning them even faster.

Though I do agree that he needs something. Having a champion that locks you out until you play them hundreds of times is ridiculous. Who has the time to play that long on one champion? Especially a champion that is getting progressively weaker every patch. Lol I mean the game is fun and all, but I got a life to live and only so much time to do it.

Arakadia1 votes

That would b come the main counterplay to Azir and that mini game wouldn't be fun to fight at all.

redfeenix1 votes

It would be better than doing nothing or running away.

Obungo 2 votes

It would end up being a nuisance to have to attack every soldier. They obviously will have to make it like pink wards, because if they were destructible by normal abilities they would be gone instantly in team fights. Too low health, too easy to kill. Too high health, too much of a pain.

Miss CS, completely distract yourself from lane, give him a chance to get a one up on you.

Hammermancer1 votes

Reduce his range,

increase his defensive stats

give them 200/275/350/425/500 hp

after a few second seconds they begin to advance, acting as minions but prioritizing azirs targets, they begin as they are now for about 75% of the current duration but then Advance.

Give his ult passive stacking to their defences and HP based on Azir's defences and HP

Give Q, E, and R damage based on AP, but also additional damage based on Armor and MR

Lower the cooldown of sand soldier tokens based on either attack speed or CDR, or even just grant additional tokens every 5 hits or so.

This would make for a tankier closer ranged azir who looked to engage for his team, building tank and attack speed. But in that same regard he'd remain the same champion, it beats the rework concepts thrown around like removing the shurima shuffle, and it keeps him in tact as his normal AP carry build

Beldair2 votes

I actually like this idea....sets him up to be a true Emperor of Shurima persona.

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